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Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2013.05.22 04:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay a year or so ago, about 30 days seemed normal for most hi sec areas.
Today?
40 days.
50 days.
At one station over 100 days for the queue.
I think it's gotten to the point where we either need to limit what can be researched in high, put in a max ME/PE for hi sec stuff, add the number of slots or something. You want a 50 ME BS? That's great. Either do it in a POS or take it to low/null. I can has blogging skills! |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
353
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Posted - 2013.05.22 04:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Looks like it's working as intended. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 04:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
As a hisec resident, I can say...
Researching in highsec station slots is supposed to be bad.
You want researching that doesn't suck big black donkey balls? That's great. Either do it in a POS or take it to low/null.
As an aside, can we increase the cost of research/manufacturing in NPC slots? Maybe a 10x increase to start with. CCP did it in the past, they can easily do it again. |
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries
286
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Posted - 2013.05.22 05:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
30days or less where I live. And yes, it is working as it should. Hisec living should have penalties.
Now if we could just talk CCP into reducing the capabilities of hisec stations in getting 100% refine and put a larger wait on manufacturing jobs, shift some of that production out. THAT would be a positive move. If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that? |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
135
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Posted - 2013.05.22 05:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ruze wrote:30days or less where I live. And yes, it is working as it should. Hisec living should have penalties.
Now if we could just talk CCP into reducing the capabilities of hisec stations in getting 100% refine and put a larger wait on manufacturing jobs, shift some of that production out. THAT would be a positive move.
You know perfectly well that production wouldn't be shifted out of highsec unless highsec manufacturing was eliminated entirely. People would just complain a lot, deal with the changes and pass any increase in cost along to the market. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
95
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Posted - 2013.05.22 05:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:People would just complain a lot, deal with the changes and pass any increase in cost along to the market. And that is perfectly fine, because then low/null sec production will become more profitable and lucrative. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
58
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Posted - 2013.05.22 09:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:People would just complain a lot, deal with the changes and pass any increase in cost along to the market. And that is perfectly fine, because then low/null sec production will become more profitable and lucrative. agreed, a balance pass shall be done over the hig sec industry, currently, it is not worth doing it in low / null, only industri you find in low and null are things that cannot be built in high due to game mechanic (capital in low, titan / super in null)
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WolfSchwarzMond
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
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Posted - 2013.05.22 09:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Working as intended. You're not supposed to stay in High Sec forever. Roam around some find a lowsec station you can get to and use that. |
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Okay, hisec should have its penalties. But for BPs, I don't see that. So why is it that people can make ME 50s BPOs with minimal interaction in game and sell them for huge amounts, all from working in hisec.
Perfect BPOs should have risks... like having to transport them into and out of low or null at the least. I can has blogging skills! |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations
92
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Posted - 2013.05.22 19:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
WolfSchwarzMond wrote:Working as intended. You're not supposed to stay in High Sec forever. Roam around some find a lowsec station you can get to and use that.
Really? I haven't seen that memo yet. I live in WH but I'm not going to tell people where they are supposed to play/live.
On topic: The penalty for living in HS is the long wait times. You can live with that problem or solve it using some of the ways mentioned already. |
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Zorn Madullier
Sons of Sord
0
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
The ME Research game mechanic is pretty much completely broken. The problem is that it takes about half the time to do 6 minutes of research as it does to do a month. In the first case, it's 6 minutes plus a month of queue. In the second case, it's a month plus a month in queue. The game is balanced around the idea that it should be much, much quicker to get ME 1 low level stuff than ME 50 high level stuff.
Plus it just feels wrong. Isn't this game supposed to be about market allocation of resources? This "queue forever and then buy everything you can once you're let into the store" mechanic makes me feel like I'm playing a simulation of the Soviet Union.
Really there needs to be some kind of a change so that, as originally intended, players get a certain amount of research time proportional to their number of slots, but can spend it they way they like instead of having to spend it in month-long increments or waste their queue time. There are a couple simple queuing method changes which would do this without increasing the number of ME slots. Jobs could just run concurrently, so that if there are 30 jobs in a 20 slot facility, they all take 1.5 times as long. Alternatively, the next job to start could be the one with the highest ratio of time spent waiting divided by job length.
Either of these changes would restore the originally intended ability to have low ME (but > 0) blueprints be much cheaper than very high ME blueprints. They would preserve the current amount of research slots, while maintaining the advantage to players who used less popular low-sec facilities. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
770
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Why not just remove public slots and provide a mechanism for POS owners to rent out their research slots to the public? |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
211
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
won't the odyssey changes to nullsec industry and POS changes alleviate this issue? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
brinelan
The Flying Dead Ethereal Dawn
40
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:won't the odyssey changes to nullsec industry and POS changes alleviate this issue?
pos slots still cant be opened up to the general public so no, however building in null may change because of the extra lowend minerals. |
Daedalus II
The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
What CCP could do (although I don't think industrialists would appreciate this) is increasing the research price a lot in high sec. That way POS research costs (which today are a lot higher than station cost) would be on more equal footing and more research would be done in POSes. Or you could go to low sec and research there for a lower cost but higher risk. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
211
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Posted - 2013.05.31 17:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
brinelan wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:won't the odyssey changes to nullsec industry and POS changes alleviate this issue? pos slots still cant be opened up to the general public so no, however building in null may change because of the extra lowend minerals.
Well i was thinking that nullsec people are most likely using these high sec slots as there is no benefit and not much space in POS to do it... am i wrong here? 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2183
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zorn Madullier wrote:The ME Research game mechanic is pretty much completely broken. The problem is that it takes about half the time to do 6 minutes of research as it does to do a month. In the first case, it's 6 minutes plus a month of queue. In the second case, it's a month plus a month in queue. The game is balanced around the idea that it should be much, much quicker to get ME 1 low level stuff than ME 50 high level stuff.
Plus it just feels wrong. Isn't this game supposed to be about market allocation of resources? This "queue forever and then buy everything you can once you're let into the store" mechanic makes me feel like I'm playing a simulation of the Soviet Union.
Really there needs to be some kind of a change so that, as originally intended, players get a certain amount of research time proportional to their number of slots, but can spend it they way they like instead of having to spend it in month-long increments or waste their queue time. There are a couple simple queuing method changes which would do this without increasing the number of ME slots. Jobs could just run concurrently, so that if there are 30 jobs in a 20 slot facility, they all take 1.5 times as long. Alternatively, the next job to start could be the one with the highest ratio of time spent waiting divided by job length.
Either of these changes would restore the originally intended ability to have low ME (but > 0) blueprints be much cheaper than very high ME blueprints. They would preserve the current amount of research slots, while maintaining the advantage to players who used less popular low-sec facilities.
First off, most things can be produced profitably at ME 10... After that, it's generally just "icing on the cake".
Next, the queue in Highsec exists because people are to Lazy, cheap, or risk adverse to hunt for "unused" stations, put up a POS, or uitilize lowsec / nullsec services. There is a max time limit on how long you can run a job, and since you have to wait for 30 days to get a job to start, why not utilize it for a full 30 days of research. That's the mentality of many, many people...
Really, industry as a whole needs a solid balancing pass, and I hope it will come sooner than later... In the mean time, they really should increase the "line costs" of all highsec S&I activities:
Currently, it typically costs 1000 ISK + 333 ISK/hour to do a highsec S&I job (at least of MF, but I thought all S&I jobs are near this). In a month, 10 lines * 24 hrs * 30 days * 333 isk/ hr = 2.40 m isk / month.
Increase the hourly rate to 33.3 k isk / hour. Then, In a month, 10 lines * 24 hrs * 30 days * 33.3k isk/ hr = 240 m isk / month.
A small POS uses 10 blocks/hr * 24 hrs * 30 days = 7200 Fuel blocks in a month * 17.5k isk / block = ~125 m isk/month A medium POS would be 250m isk/month. A large is 500m isk / month.
It takes time and effort to setup a POS, it takes an investment, and it leaves stuff in space for people to attack... This simple solution would also create nice isk sink, although people wouldn't produce in nullsec/lowsec for the "savings" this would create (seriously, a t2 200mm autocannon would end up costing 50-100k isk more to make...) *This would also create a Trillion+ isk sink every month!!!!
I really just can't fathom why this hasn't been done already! |
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
115
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Posted - 2013.05.31 17:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
I agree with others that high sec researching should be worse in high than in other spaces however. The queur times are getting rediculous to point they are not usable for average person. Queues are getting worse also in low sec not only high sec.
Right now high sec reseaching basically doesnt cost anything so the system is easy to overcrowd and make it unavalaible for the others.
It would perhaps make sense to: A) increase cost of high sec and low sec research enough to people to consider other options. B) add 5 or so facilities to each research station to make it more likely to have available installation C) boost pos research other means Edit D) make queueing cost something like 250k isk / hour. This would add effective money sink to the game.
High sec should have hinderances but how it is now is plain ass. Other discussions: Racial systems balancing and homogenization Bounty contracts |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2183
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 17:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Theia Matova wrote:I agree with others that high sec researching should be worse in high than in other spaces however. The queur times are getting rediculous to point they are not usable for average person. Queues are getting worse also in low sec not only high sec.
Right now high sec reseaching basically doesnt cost anything so the system is easy to overcrowd and make it unavalaible for the others.
It would perhaps make sense to: A) increase cost of high sec and low sec research enough to people to consider other options. B) add 5 or so facilities to each research station to make it more likely to have available installation C) boost pos research other means Edit D) make queueing cost something like 250k isk / hour. This would add effective money sink to the game.
High sec should have hinderances but how it is now is plain ass.
It costs 2.4m isk / month to use 10 lines at your run-of-the-mill highsec station. A small POS costs 125m isk / month. (and can provide more than 10 slots).
Increase the cost/month of using a station to be around the fuel costs needed to operate that small POS, and the market will solve itself! |
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
119
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Posted - 2013.05.31 18:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Instead of increasing the cost per hour across the board, how about increasing the cost per point of ME/PE being researched?
100 isk/hour for 1-10. 10,000 isk/hour for 11-20. 1,000,000 isk/hour for 21 and up.
That would encourage people to keep the queue times short as the longer it's being researched the more cost inefficient it is. That in turn would encourage people to take research to POSs I mean at 1,000,000 isk an hour, you'll probably never make the investment back from the mat savings you are getting as your ME or PE gets higher and higher. I can has blogging skills! |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2183
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 19:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote:Instead of increasing the cost per hour across the board, how about increasing the cost per point of ME/PE being researched?
100 isk/hour for 1-10. 10,000 isk/hour for 11-20. 1,000,000 isk/hour for 21 and up.
That would encourage people to keep the queue times short as the longer it's being researched the more cost inefficient it is. That in turn would encourage people to take research to POSs I mean at 1,000,000 isk an hour, you'll probably never make the investment back from the mat savings you are getting as your ME or PE gets higher and higher.
A lot of ships and modules have very long research times. This idea is interesting, but I want to hit more than just ME processes (PE, Copying, MFG, etc). |
Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
114
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 06:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote:Okay a year or so ago, about 30 days seemed normal for most hi sec areas.
Today?
40 days.
50 days.
At one station over 100 days for the queue.
I think it's gotten to the point where we either need to limit what can be researched in high, put in a max ME/PE for hi sec stuff, add the number of slots or something. You want a 50 ME BS? That's great. Either do it in a POS or take it to low/null.
you know you could grind up your faction standings by storyline missions or FW and then setup a tower in empire and do an insane amount of research. with no queue unless you have enough alts to queue a large tower full of labs.
Large caldari tower with normal labs is about 12 labs so thats 36 ME slots, 36PE slots, 12 copy slots and 60 invention slots. Should be enough for anyone.
It's a solution to your problem or then ask someone who has a lab to do the research you need for you. |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force
290
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 07:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Why not just remove public slots and provide a mechanism for POS owners to rent out their research slots to the public?
Not even completely removing them. Increasing the prices on them drastically. Then allowing POS owners to actually be lucrative with it. |
Lusty Wench
Nox Incurro
0
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Posted - 2013.06.01 07:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote:Okay a year or so ago, about 30 days seemed normal for most hi sec areas.
Today?
40 days.
50 days.
At one station over 100 days for the queue.
I think it's gotten to the point where we either need to limit what can be researched in high, put in a max ME/PE for hi sec stuff, add the number of slots or something. You want a 50 ME BS? That's great. Either do it in a POS or take it to low/null.
How about you get out of your NPC corp and put up a POS? |
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