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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.08.05 07:27:00 -
[1]
Sometimes I wonder if the problem goes deeper than just the game's software but to the underlying APIs and OS.
We're talking about Microsoft here---never a shining example of reliability and bug removal.
Never felt that DirectX games were reliable---crashing from a PC game seems routine. You just notice it more in EVE because you cannot afford to lose a ship. Your attitude would be different if the ship or character was expendable, ready to get back into action with a respawn. Played my share of MS games, even those with an actual MS label on them.
And what's this MS SQL Server thing? Is that thing actually scalable? And what OS do you use on those clusters? And running what, Dell or Compaq Zeon servers? I think it would sound more assuring if it's Oracle, with Linux for the OS, and IBM or Sun for the hardware.
Somehow I think this game pushes your desktop OS to the limits, the server OS to the limits---everything to the limits. I'm considering stuff like upping my CPU power, get a better sound and graphics card, updating drivers etc,.
BTW there is yet another MS Explorer worm rapidly infecting systems worldwide today, coincidentally, just about these weekend period where the CTDs occur.
_______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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skurk
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Posted - 2003.08.05 08:00:00 -
[2]
I'm no MS fan, but MS SQL Server is quite good. If it's scalable like other db-servers, i don't know. But it's one of the few 'MS delveloped' apps that realy I like. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.05 08:09:00 -
[3]
Quote:
Sometimes I wonder if the problem goes deeper than just the game's software but to the underlying APIs and OS.
We're talking about Microsoft here---never a shining example of reliability and bug removal.
Never felt that DirectX games were reliable---crashing from a PC game seems routine. You just notice it more in EVE because you cannot afford to lose a ship. Your attitude would be different if the ship or character was expendable, ready to get back into action with a respawn. Played my share of MS games, even those with an actual MS label on them.
And what's this MS SQL Server thing? Is that thing actually scalable? And what OS do you use on those clusters? And running what, Dell or Compaq Zeon servers? I think it would sound more assuring if it's Oracle, with Linux for the OS, and IBM or Sun for the hardware.
Somehow I think this game pushes your desktop OS to the limits, the server OS to the limits---everything to the limits. I'm considering stuff like upping my CPU power, get a better sound and graphics card, updating drivers etc,.
BTW there is yet another MS Explorer worm rapidly infecting systems worldwide today, coincidentally, just about these weekend period where the CTDs occur.
Kay, now that you're done bashing Microsoft. You do realize that many companies use Microsoft products for mission critical applications. For example, I believe Ebay runs on MS SQL.
My company does multimedia streaming for other companies (we setup the server architecture + teach them encoding and DRM techniques) and uses MS Win2k in production machines. I've had a 2.0 ghz xeon edge servers handling 600 concurrent connections with a connection rate of 3 connections/second serving video streams at 340kb/s. Resource utilization barely ticking at 30%. That's 199 megabits/second total. Or 2 nic cards in your computer.
MS software really hums if you know how to tweak it, same as Linux. And therein lay the issue: it's all up to you to tweak it right.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.08.05 09:38:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/08/2003 09:55:52
Quote: think it would sound more assuring if it's Oracle, with Linux for the OS, and IBM or Sun for the hardware
There goes the budget....
To host Eve on the as-is infrastructure ~ ú1.5-2M (guesstimate)
To host Eve on Oracle & SUN -> probably ú2.5-3M
Also depends how they licensed SQL server - you can either go for number of users or match it to the number of processors in the DB server. The latter is probably what they did - this will be a *lot* cheaper than Oracle for the equivalent service level
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Endyl
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Posted - 2003.08.05 09:47:00 -
[5]
WhinedoZe = Teh sux
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Aleister Crowley
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Posted - 2003.08.05 10:02:00 -
[6]
Jash,
You are right MS has some good products.
BUT
Followed history of Java?
Have you ever d/l'd MS drivers for Generic sound chip?
Compared a registry file to it's original description when it was originally developed?
...And the list really goes on.
It's great to hear you go on about what you have a MS server doing for you but maybe fail to realize that with one good exploit in the next SP you could get totally hacked and have your customer DB in the hands of some crap weasal in manilla. :) 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law' |
Maggot
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Posted - 2003.08.05 10:04:00 -
[7]
Eldariel, Yeah I agree with your costings. In my company we chose SQL server 3 years ago over unix solutions based on hardware cost. SQL Server is very stable and fast. Only problems we had were with configuring the failover clustering (which was a one off learning cost). Its buggest problem is that is cannot really share hardware with other apps so is becoming less popular where this is an issue (like companies that have 2000+ databases).
A lot of air traffic control software is running SQL Server.
Maggot
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.05 10:34:00 -
[8]
Quote: Jash,
You are right MS has some good products.
BUT
Followed history of Java?
Have you ever d/l'd MS drivers for Generic sound chip?
Compared a registry file to it's original description when it was originally developed?
...And the list really goes on.
It's great to hear you go on about what you have a MS server doing for you but maybe fail to realize that with one good exploit in the next SP you could get totally hacked and have your customer DB in the hands of some crap weasal in manilla. :)
Yah...and the cleaning lady could steal one of the company checkbooks and go on a spending spree. Provided she knows how to pick locks.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.08.05 10:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Eldariel on 05/08/2003 10:44:54
Quote: Only problems we had were with configuring the failover clustering (which was a one off learning cost)
Failover cluster configuration is a black art at the best of times . You'd probably have had the same problems on Unix ...
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Kaito'Li
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Posted - 2003.08.05 11:00:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Kaito'Li on 05/08/2003 11:00:29 hmmm Endyl
u 4r3 s00 l33t...
Confucius he say, "Bugger this, I'm off for a beer" |
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Nightwing
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Posted - 2003.08.05 11:23:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Kay, now that you're done bashing Microsoft. You do realize that many companies use Microsoft products for mission critical applications.
Well, Micro$oft websites run on Apache, what does that tell you?
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.05 13:02:00 -
[12]
Edited by: BSOD on 05/08/2003 13:14:56
Quote:
Kay, now that you're done bashing Microsoft. You do realize that many companies use Microsoft products for mission critical applications. For example, I believe Ebay runs on MS SQL.
Wrong
http://www.forbes.com/2002/10/08/1008linux.html
eBay uses Linux. They may have previously used Windows, but either Sun or IBM recently won a HUGE contract to replace eBay's infrastructure with Linux. (I don't have an exact link to the deal at the moment.)
If Microsoft's servers are so hot, why did it take 4-5 years and a MASSIVE hardware upgrade for Microsoft to replace Linux (or was it FreeBSD) with Windows as the backend for Hotmail? Microsoft tried and failed at least twice.
If Microsoft is so good for clusters, than why are only two of the top 500 supercomputing clusters in the world running Windows? And a fraction of the performance of the #3 machine running Linux? What about all of the IBM xSeries (Linux) and pSeries (AIX) clusters that seem to make up every third entry in the list? I believe the site is www.top500.org.
And last but not least, repeat after me: SERVER GUIs ARE A WASTE OF VALUABLE RESOURCES. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
Brede Cleary
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Posted - 2003.08.05 13:04:00 -
[13]
Another Microsoft basher. Let's eliminate all things MS and then there will be WORLD PEACE. Stellar Products and Quality Resources ticker: SPQR established 6-03 |
Endyl
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Posted - 2003.08.05 13:11:00 -
[14]
Let's say the truth.
Windows is made to help people with few computing skills run a server because it's all nice and fancy with nice icons to click.
It has never being conceived as a high end product, even if M$ marketing and market manipulation engineers are trying to make you think so.
PS: If my messages sound rude, it's fully intended, I am sick, my head is hurting, and I need to vent. :)
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.08.05 13:38:00 -
[15]
Quote: Let's say the truth.
Windows is made to help people with few computing skills run a server because it's all nice and fancy with nice icons to click.
It has never being conceived as a high end product, even if M$ marketing and market manipulation engineers are trying to make you think so.
PS: If my messages sound rude, it's fully intended, I am sick, my head is hurting, and I need to vent. :)
God forbid that server administration should be made easier.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Karen de Winter
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Posted - 2003.08.05 13:47:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Karen de Winter on 05/08/2003 13:58:51 I use a particular 3d application that I've been using for years, it's not always as powerful as Maya, but given I don't use Maya, switching to the more powerful software would mean I would come out with inferior work for a good deal of time while I learnt to use it properly.
If you're about to write $7 million server cluster software, I don't think you'd switch to software you weren't comfortable with either.
The tools may or may not be better according to a number of people on either sode of a silly line who refuse to see any other options, but the end result of what you produce would almost definately suck.
Do you think that *perhaps* that might be the reason? and that regarless of unix/linux being better, if CCP weren't comfortable using it, the end result wouldn't have been any better? I seriously most of you linux affecionados bury your heads in the sand simply because you want to religiously support the "ultimage" solution, and brand any other solution as the tools of heretics.
Personally, I think Windows is an end-user OS, and always has been. If it were truly a server OS you'd be able to cut back the services to a complete minimum and run any graphical administration software remotely, and this would have been built in from the start rather than building the server architecture around the existing structure. On the other hand, I don't think any of the unix or linux variants make a half decent end-user OS yet. If you wanted a *nix kernel end-user OS, you'd be using Mac OS X. Linux is still the domain of people who have far too much time on their hands for remembering command line switches, program well and haven't the first idea about user interfaces and useability. "You go to certain death" "All death is certain" |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.05 13:53:00 -
[17]
Quote:
God forbid that server administration should be made easier.
If server administration doesn't involve the hand editting of a bunch of config files using a text editor, people can't prove how 1337 they are. And in my company, they also get fired for wasting valuble time.
I ran linux on my laptop to maintain familiarity. My desktops are all Microsoft based. Maybe because I actually know how to use them (XP Pro, 2K Pro, 2003 Enterprise) I can get them working pretty damn good. But I find the closedmindedness amusing, which is why I pick on the linux lovers.
Reminds me of the anti-pirates
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.08.05 14:13:00 -
[18]
Quote:
If server administration doesn't involve the hand editting of a bunch of config files using a text editor, people can't prove how 1337 they are. And in my company, they also get fired for wasting valuble time.
I ran linux on my laptop to maintain familiarity. My desktops are all Microsoft based. Maybe because I actually know how to use them (XP Pro, 2K Pro, 2003 Enterprise) I can get them working pretty damn good. But I find the closedmindedness amusing, which is why I pick on the linux lovers.
Reminds me of the anti-pirates
I totally agree. I'd still be running Linux on at least one PC at home if it wasn't such a goddamn nightmare to administer. And I'm not saying it was difficult, just needlessly tedious. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.05 14:21:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 05/08/2003 16:24:47
Quote:
Quote:
If server administration doesn't involve the hand editting of a bunch of config files using a text editor, people can't prove how 1337 they are. And in my company, they also get fired for wasting valuble time.
I ran linux on my laptop to maintain familiarity. My desktops are all Microsoft based. Maybe because I actually know how to use them (XP Pro, 2K Pro, 2003 Enterprise) I can get them working pretty damn good. But I find the closedmindedness amusing, which is why I pick on the linux lovers.
Reminds me of the anti-pirates
I totally agree. I'd still be running Linux on at least one PC at home if it wasn't such a goddamn nightmare to administer. And I'm not saying it was difficult, just needlessly tedious.
And Microsoft left in the 1337 factor for others as well: the registry. But considering it takes actual knowledge to mess with the Windows Registry (not counting hitting f3, searching for a word, and deleting a key) most people never learn how much Windows can be tweaked.
To the whoever it was that said fallover clustering with winos was a black art, we sacrificed a pig at one company when we finally got it right. Had a Hawaian Luau to celebrate
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Elad Baan
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Posted - 2003.08.05 14:32:00 -
[20]
I don't believe it... A MS bashing thread ? Here ??? PLEASE go back to slashdot or anyother linux forum you came from and complain there. EVEN if what you said WAS true, it would still be completely irrelevant. Please, polaris guys, lock this thread.
Cool ideas for the game - New mission types - Group missions - Planets and the market |
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.05 14:59:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Quote:
If server administration doesn't involve the hand editting of a bunch of config files using a text editor, people can't prove how 1337 they are. And in my company, they also get fired for wasting valuble time.
I ran linux on my laptop to maintain familiarity. My desktops are all Microsoft based. Maybe because I actually know how to use them (XP Pro, 2K Pro, 2003 Enterprise) I can get them working pretty damn good. But I find the closedmindedness amusing, which is why I pick on the linux lovers.
Reminds me of the anti-pirates
I totally agree. I'd still be running Linux on at least one PC at home if it wasn't such a goddamn nightmare to administer. And I'm not saying it was difficult, just needlessly tedious.
I've found the opposite. Linux is FAR easier to administer than Windows.
a) Saner management of shared libraries. I've done things to my system (Using experimental bleeding-edge beta C++ libraries) that essentially killed my installation. Under Windows, I would've had one option: Reinstall. Under Linux, there are tools that allow me to track down the responsible libraries and revert them to a saner version.
b) Non-dependence on GUI resources. GUIs, in addition to being a waste of resources on a server, make remote administration a nightmare. I have been able to remotely log in to my home Linux box to perform administrative tasks while on the road using my cell phone's 14.4 data connection. (SSH) - Now, tell me how I can administer all aspects a Windows box over a 14.4 connection please? Oh wait, because everything under Windows is GUI-centric, you can't. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
Karif
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Posted - 2003.08.05 15:44:00 -
[22]
Half of any network system is the hardware. The other half is the software. The third half is the people supporting it. The fourth half is luck.
I've seen MS products put to utter shame by hardware/software 15 years old. I've also seen the very same MS product do tricks some of us thought it wasn't capable of.
/shrug =============================== Deception + Information + Skill |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.08.05 15:50:00 -
[23]
I see MS more then I see Unix. MS may not be great but they are the leaders when it comes to the PC world. Unix is just a hobby that is why you can get it free.
I have worked with SQL Server First hand and havn't found a database server to match. The only ones that say others are better are those unix lovers.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.05 16:24:00 -
[24]
Quote: I see MS more then I see Unix. MS may not be great but they are the leaders when it comes to the PC world. Unix is just a hobby that is why you can get it free.
I have worked with SQL Server First hand and havn't found a database server to match. The only ones that say others are better are those unix lovers.
Unlike the rabid *nix fans, I'll admit *nix is powerful and has many uses. I've worked with SCO before (so zipper it, ya penguins). But Linux and the others are exactly the same as MS operating systems:
If the person using it doesn't know what they're doing, they're in for nothing but nightmares.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.05 17:08:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Quote: I see MS more then I see Unix. MS may not be great but they are the leaders when it comes to the PC world. Unix is just a hobby that is why you can get it free.
I have worked with SQL Server First hand and havn't found a database server to match. The only ones that say others are better are those unix lovers.
Unlike the rabid *nix fans, I'll admit *nix is powerful and has many uses. I've worked with SCO before (so zipper it, ya penguins). But Linux and the others are exactly the same as MS operating systems:
If the person using it doesn't know what they're doing, they're in for nothing but nightmares.
Agreed. But someone experienced in adminstering Unix systems has far more flexibility and power available to them than some braindead MCSE.
I remember seeing a number of statistics regarding Unix/Linux vs. MS-based servers. The average number of machines administered by a single Unix admin was five or more times the number administered by a single Windows admin. (Reason: My above comments about Unix having superior remote administration capabilities.)
I have had cases where the GUI on my Linux box crashed (Running beta drivers for X at that point in time), rendering it impossible to do anything locally.
Guess what? I was able to SSH in and gracefully reboot the machine from a box upstairs.
Now in Windows, if the GUI crashes, the entire system goes down with it. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises |
la'Rei
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Posted - 2003.08.05 17:14:00 -
[26]
can I pod kill all you pinguins, and microsoft humpers? -Rei _________________________ Trolling is bad. Please dont do it. -rei |
Zorael
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Posted - 2003.08.05 17:16:00 -
[27]
<<Unix is just a hobby that is why you can get it free.>>
LOL!
*Still laughing*
Thank you I needed to laugh.
UNIX was powering the world's most mission-critical applications 20 years ago, and still is. And looking at Microsoft's current prowesses (Code Red and Sapphire worms anyone?), it's not going to change anytime soon.
Btw, the illusion that Windows-based IT infrastructures can be managed by less knowledgeable people has already cost a lot of money to a lot of companies.
Not to say that UNIX doesn't have bugs. It does. But contrary to Windows, an incompetent sysadmin can't create the illusion he's doing his job for very long
Interestingly, Microsoft's marketing was, for a long time, heavily axed on this very aspect : Windows being less costly to maintain because being maintainable by less qualified staffs.
/EOR
- - - Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.08.05 17:47:00 -
[28]
Guess what I work in a "mission critical" inviroment and all I see are NTs with has been sun systems still floating around. I don't really like MS. I am more of a Apple person. But I got hooked on EVE so that is the only App I run on my windoze machine.
I don't know where you get the Unix is still powering mission-critical systems thing, They use to. But not anymore its all NT as far as I can see. But there are still labs around here that tinker with unix. Making it a hobby of even the mission-critical IT world.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.05 17:51:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote: I see MS more then I see Unix. MS may not be great but they are the leaders when it comes to the PC world. Unix is just a hobby that is why you can get it free.
I have worked with SQL Server First hand and havn't found a database server to match. The only ones that say others are better are those unix lovers.
Unlike the rabid *nix fans, I'll admit *nix is powerful and has many uses. I've worked with SCO before (so zipper it, ya penguins). But Linux and the others are exactly the same as MS operating systems:
If the person using it doesn't know what they're doing, they're in for nothing but nightmares.
Agreed. But someone experienced in adminstering Unix systems has far more flexibility and power available to them than some braindead MCSE.
I do believe I qualified my statement by saying people that know what they're doing. Passing the MSCE is about as difficult as the SAT. With just as many cram courses availible
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Noctoz
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Posted - 2003.08.05 18:02:00 -
[30]
As a long time programmer with quite a bit of gameprogramming experience I must say that your comment about directx is truly laughable. directx is nowadays the best graphics API on the market, at least when it comes to games, and even though openGL certainly still is a good alternative it's falling short. When it comes to massive server clustering and such things unix systems still have the edge. I whould not however really use linus for something like eve as it still have quite a bit of flaws unless you have one of the real gurus configure it for you down to the lowest level. And the fact that more and more goverment systems go to MS sollutions should prove that it's indeed a viable sollution nowadays and certainly not somethign to bash down on. ------------------ NoctoZ Black Reign Curse Alliance |
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