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Brian Omanid
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.05.31 06:46:00 -
[61] - Quote
I don't understand. Killing is the sweetest thing there is. |
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
64
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Posted - 2013.05.31 08:06:00 -
[62] - Quote
Brian Omanid wrote:I don't understand. Killing is the sweetest thing there is.
Yes, but it's icky. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1447
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Posted - 2013.05.31 09:47:00 -
[63] - Quote
Lilya Tvavarivich wrote:Stitcher wrote:All of this hinges on the existence of a deity you cannot demonstrate the existence of. For me to accept even one word of it as being worth listening to, you need to cross that first and most trivial hurdle.
If you can't, then you've built an arch without the keystone. Humanity itself is an arch built with the keystone of God. Take away God, and you are left with dirt and dust. A universe without God is ugly, cruel and completely without worth. Such an arch would deserve to crumble.
1) I do not agree that this would be the case. It would simply mean that whatever beauty, fairness and worth the universe has is that with which we imbue it, which in turn obligates us to choose wisely. I don't respect this longing for divine paternal intervention. The Maker as believed in by most Caldari prefers that Humanity should chart our own course and stand by ourselves, not lean on daddy. Though I also don't believe in the Maker as a literal entity, I certainly find that philosophy more mature and uplifting.
2) The existence of your god does not hinge on the consequences of whether or not he exists. Maybe the universe is just dirt and dust exactly as you say. Asserting that you believe such a universe would deserve to crumble does absolutely nothing to demonstrate that your god exists, it just demonstrates your desire that he should. Desiring something to be true does not cause it to be true. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
880
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Posted - 2013.05.31 10:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
Your blatant disrespect towards your allies and overt lust for Minmatar flesh grows tiring, Verin.
I wonder how long it will take you to steel your conviction and strike at the Empire, rather than shout and tattle about it loudly and obnoxiously. "To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21 |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
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Posted - 2013.05.31 10:19:00 -
[65] - Quote
You're not going to bother actually having a conversation with me, then? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
880
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Posted - 2013.05.31 10:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:You're not going to bother actually having a conversation with me, then?
I have been watching what you have to say for over a year, Stitcher.
You have detailed your thoughts in excruciating length. But conversing seems to be all that you are willing to do.
"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21 |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
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Posted - 2013.05.31 11:15:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jin-Mei legend has it that the Sang-Do lord Gun Yeng surrendered to his rival upon receiving a letter of only three carefully calligraphed words. Language is a weapon, pilot. Conversation is a battlefield. Make no mistake, I AM striking at the Empire. Don't let the fact that nobody is dying confuse you.
If you mean to taunt me into squandering my resources on a futile campaign of violence in Amarrian space, you're wasting your time. "Put your money where your mouth is" is a common gambit by those who have a frail grasp on the big picture. You're feeling insecure fighting me on my terms, and so demand that I give up the advantage.
Not happening. I'm one capsuleer, and the Empire is enormous. I could bankrupt myself on ammunition alone without losing a single ship, and barely make a dent. But I have a near-limitless supply of loquacity.
I'll save the physical violence for when, and where, I can make a difference. But the nice thing about garrulity is that costs nothing but my time, and you never know when, and against whom, I might score a telling blow. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
880
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Posted - 2013.05.31 12:07:00 -
[68] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: You're feeling insecure fighting me on my terms, and so demand that I give up the advantage.
You are an incredibly superficial little man, Verin. Spare me your political fugitive and tiring sophistry.
You are verbose, surely. But to think of yourself as a warrior of the tongue is commiserable. All of your arguments against the Empire, all of your chest-beating, all of it amounts to an attractive little nothing.
Now I am sure that you will smile to yourself in your room seeing that I do taunt; and yes I taunt you, but I taunt you because you make a whelp of yourself.
The faithful will meet you on any front. That is where we differ. I do not demand that you fight on terms that are not your own, for there we shall meet you, too. It is you who refuses to fight on any other field of combat.
So, make with your dulcet speeches as you do, convincing yourself that any attempt to fight us would be ultimately irrelevant. Continue to offer nothing but hot air, where you will surely remain irrelevant. I know that I will not remove you from your fortress. You have realized long ago that any such ideological differences such as these are settled only in blood, but you will not rise to the heights demanded of you and must instead reason that this is no fault of yourself. "To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21 |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
342
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Posted - 2013.05.31 12:29:00 -
[69] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: If you mean to taunt me into squandering my resources on a futile campaign of violence in Amarrian space, you're wasting your time. "Put your money where your mouth is" is a common gambit by those who have a frail grasp on the big picture. You're feeling insecure fighting me on my terms, and so demand that I give up the advantage.
I might counter that too much pseudo-intellectual platitudes with so little action taken is usually the recourse of those who prefer the safety and comfort of doing all the talking while others do all the fighting and dying. For those who are in fact willing and able to do the fighting and dying in pursuit of their own beliefs and convictions the opinions of those who prefer the use of empty rhetoric become easily dismissed as nothing more than trite pedantry.
From what I have read, you have never been lacking in waxing romantic about Caldari culture, I find it unfortunate that the concept of having the willingness to carry out the will of your convictions through force and violence has never been discussed even when the pages of Caldari history has always been authored by those willing to write in it with blood.
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
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Posted - 2013.05.31 12:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
Violence is a means to an end, a tool. It's one of many in my arsenal - I have used force and death in the past, and no doubt will need to do so again. But it's just one of the options, and I prefer to use the right tool for the job.
The problem with immortals is that violence rarely works on us. What am I going to accomplish by blowing a capsuleer up other than making them resent me? It's not like killing proves me right. I'll fight to defend property, territory, people and resources, but there really is no point in shooting an Empyrean over philosophical differences because A) it doesn't prove me right, and B) they'd just wake up disliking me even more and no closer to either agreeing with or disproving me.
The same problem applies to the Empire. it's too big for any amount of carnage I can cause to have any real impact, and in any case just turns me into an enemy who is not to be heeded.
So taunting me to get my warpaint on and go break stuff to prove my point isn't going to work. I know full well that it would be futile. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
880
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Posted - 2013.05.31 12:59:00 -
[71] - Quote
So you understand the importance of defending property, territory, personnel and resources but not that of removing property, territory, personnel and resources from an opponent?
How quaint and strikingly un-Caldari. "To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21 |
Sverloft
Bureau of Astronomical Research and Development
1
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
Kim Ji-Young wrote:I didn't know what the big deal was but it was clearly a case of them or me because they had that scrambler thingy on my ship, so I did what I had to do and I shot them all. None of them were capsuleers so they're all dead now.
You said it yourself. Better them than you. Why care? You didn't know them. They were of absolutely no consequence or importance to you. Give a logical reason as to why you should give the slightest crap. Screw them.
Some people live by the saying "Don't give an inch.". I tend to go by the saying "Don't give a s**t.". |
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
73
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:14:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sverloft wrote:Kim Ji-Young wrote:I didn't know what the big deal was but it was clearly a case of them or me because they had that scrambler thingy on my ship, so I did what I had to do and I shot them all. None of them were capsuleers so they're all dead now. You said it yourself. Better them than you. Why care? You didn't know them. They were of absolutely no consequence or importance to you. Give a logical reason as to why you should give the slightest crap. Screw them. Some people live by the saying "Don't give an inch.". I tend to go by the saying "Don't give a s**t.".
Just because logically I know that I shouldn't care, doesn't mean that it doesn't upset me anyway.
Maybe it's more about a general squeamishness and weird feeling of dread than any particular concern for their well-being. Maybe it subconsciously reminds me of my own mortality (don't start with the "we are immortals" bullcrap, anyone, how many drugs are you people on who believe in that nonsense). Maybe I need a drink. |
Sverloft
Bureau of Astronomical Research and Development
1
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:24:00 -
[74] - Quote
Consider this: They didn't know you either. Yet, they tried to kill you without a moment's hesitation. Any shred of sympathy you may feel for them is undeserved.
I suppose I should be mindful that some people do feel differently. The first time I had to put some attackers out of their misery all I felt was rage. Nowadays it's more just annoyance.
A drink is a sound idea, by the way. Make it 10. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 13:24:00 -
[75] - Quote
Halete wrote:So you understand the importance of defending property, territory, personnel and resources but not that of removing property, territory, personnel and resources from an opponent?
How quaint and strikingly un-Caldari.
Of course I recognise the value of those things.
But my objective is to counter them on a difference of philosophy, not to plunder, conquer, subjugate and annex. I'm setting out to polish a gemstone here, and you're taunting me for not running it through a woodchipper. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
73
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:31:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sverloft wrote:Consider this: They didn't know you either. Yet, they tried to kill you without a moment's hesitation. Any shred of sympathy you may feel for them is undeserved.
I suppose I should be mindful that some people do feel differently. The first time I had to put some attackers out of their misery all I felt was rage. Nowadays it's more just annoyance.
A drink is a sound idea, by the way. Make it 10.
"Sympathy" is the wrong word. "Empathy" isn't even the right word. It's more like "don'tlikedeadthingsthy" but that's not a word so I dunno.
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
Necrophobia. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
880
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:36:00 -
[78] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: But my objective is to counter them on a difference of philosophy, not to plunder, conquer, subjugate and annex. I'm setting out to polish a gemstone here, and you're taunting me for not running it through a woodchipper.
No, I'm taunting you for polishing your gemstone with a filthy rag, whilst your foes run it through a woodchipper. You reason that with enough rubbing you'll be able to polish it, ignoring that it becomes exponentially harder to clean it's surface as it's broken down into more and more pieces. "To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21 |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
355
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:40:00 -
[79] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: The problem with immortals is that violence rarely works on us. What am I going to accomplish by blowing a capsuleer up other than making them resent me? It's not like killing proves me right.
You can actually make them shut up and look bad while proving that you're more than just empty words. On the other hand, how often do discussions change the opinions of those taking part in them? Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Sverloft
Bureau of Astronomical Research and Development
1
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:40:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kim Ji-Young wrote:"Sympathy" is the wrong word. "Empathy" isn't even the right word. It's more like "don'tlikedeadthingsthy" but that's not a word so I dunno.
Word it how you will, death is an essential part of the universe, and worth getting used to. |
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
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Posted - 2013.05.31 13:55:00 -
[81] - Quote
My analogy was simply intended to illustrate that I am attempting to accomplish an objective for which violence is not the most practical tool.
I honestly have no idea what you mean when you say "[You are] polishing your gemstone with a filthy rag, whilst your foes run it through a woodchipper.". Who are my foes? What is the gemstone? I suspect that my objective is very different to what you appear to imagine it to be.
here:
The current state of affairs is that the Amarr Empire ultimately poses an existential threat to the Caldari State. We are on their list of Heathens in need of Reclaiming, which means that ultimately they view us all as future slaves.
My objective is to remove that existential threat. There are many ways in which this objective could be accomplished, but for the sake of simplicity let's reduce it to two: Militarily, and diplomatically (for the sake of ease, consider economic means to be folded into the diplomatic).
The military option would consist of destroying their ships, smashing their armies, dismantling their military-industrial complex and I breaking their morale. I judge this to be simply impractical - the Empire is too large, open war with them would in fact rather dramatically increase the existential danger to Caldari society, and in any case I don't wish them destroyed. They're potential customers.
The diplomatic option is lower-risk. Incentivise them off slavery, win the theological and philosophical arguments, convince them that Reclaiming does not require them to absorb and dismantle foreign cultures. Go only so far as to secure an empire that is no longer an expansionist, proselytizing threat to our way of life and then back off and let them live their way and leave us to live ours.
I have chosen the latter course, on the grounds that it seems more workable. Now, please tell me why I should employ violence in the pursuit of that objective?
Desiderya wrote:Stitcher wrote: The problem with immortals is that violence rarely works on us. What am I going to accomplish by blowing a capsuleer up other than making them resent me? It's not like killing proves me right.
You can actually make them shut up and look bad while proving that you're more than just empty words. On the other hand, how often do discussions change the opinions of those taking part in them?
Routinely, in fact. Provided both participants actually listen to what the other has to say, and seriously think about it without preconceptions.
Sure, it doesn't happen in the majority of cases because people have egos, but if you are going to claim that a person's mind cannot be changed by words then you have a more cynical opinion of mankind than I do, or even than the Amarrians do. Wy would the Amarr even bother with preaching and missionary activity if they saw it as impossible for words to change somebody's mind? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
73
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:01:00 -
[82] - Quote
How did my thread get sidetracked into this boring military-philosophical nonsense.
From here on out this thread is officially about kittens. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:02:00 -
[83] - Quote
Conversations evolve. Is that really such a bad thing? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
355
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: Routinely, in fact. Provided both participants actually listen to what the other has to say, and seriously think about it without preconceptions.
Aw, you're such a romantic.
Stitcher wrote: The current state of affairs is that the Amarr Empire ultimately poses an existential threat to the Caldari State. We are on their list of Heathens in need of Reclaiming, which means that ultimately they view us all as future slaves. [...] I have chosen the latter course, on the grounds that it seems more workable. Now, please tell me why I should employ violence in the pursuit of that objective?
You're trying to meddle in the affairs of a sovereign entity, trying to impose your views and ideals on them. This is a mistake, and by doing that you're not better than any federal demagogue prattling on about elections, liberalism and other interesting concepts.
When the empire decides to take hostile action against caldari sovereignity we'll treat them appropriately. Until then I see no harm in coexistance. If they want to copy concepts of caldari corporate culture into their economical system they should do so under their own volition.
Besides, since you are seeing yourself as fighting the empire - you're comparing the option of military action with your 'striking out' with words, after all - I don't think it makes them more likely to listen to your arguments. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1448
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:26:00 -
[85] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:You're trying to meddle in the affairs of a sovereign entity, trying to impose your views and ideals on them. This is a mistake, and by doing that you're not better than any federal demagogue prattling on about elections, liberalism and other interesting concepts.
As I have said, they pose an existential threat to us. Just because we're not yet being shot at doesn't make their objective any less real. The "meddling" lasts only so long as that threat exists. Basically, the right of any nation to go un-meddled with extends only so far as their own borders. the second they drag another culture in, they've crossed the line.
Quote:When the empire decides to take hostile action against caldari sovereignity we'll treat them appropriately.
Short-sighted. The only excuse for rallying your forces and preparing your supply lines after the invasion has already begun would be if you didn't see it coming, in which case you must then account for your failure of foresight.
Quote:If they want to copy concepts of caldari corporate culture into their economical system they should do so under their own volition.
I entirely agree.
Quote:Besides, since you are seeing yourself as fighting the empire - you're comparing the option of military action with your 'striking out' with words, after all - I don't think it makes them more likely to listen to your arguments.
Now that's an interesting point. I'll have to give that some thought.
However...
Quote:Aw, you're such a romantic.
If you truly believe that words can accomplish nothing and that the only valid way to make your point is to shoot people, why are you bothering to argue with me? I'm enjoying the conversation, but you're contradicting yourself by even participating. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
880
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:27:00 -
[86] - Quote
As I said Desiderya, how very un-Caldari.
Given how Stitcher prattles on about the Empire and how he has clearly lost touch with his roots, I wonder how he can continue to advertise himself as a proponent of the State? "To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21 |
Sorjat
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2013.05.31 15:10:00 -
[87] - Quote
Interesting conversation you started Kim Ji-Young. I thought where you said "maybe I need a drink" to be the most revealing comment! I know I had a few while reading everyone's thoughts.
Do you know what I like best about the Amarr? As a people they are among the most introspective folks I have ever met... they also have the biggest demons.
The Gallente are pretty hard to shock as they have whole planets designated 'red light' districts. The Caldari put on a real show of a regimented, martial society... and as a rule they are real tight-asses until you loosen them up with a little Outer Ring Brandy and some Blue Pills... then they become normal. As for the Minmatar, espeacially in the Tribal regions, pretty much anything goes! The tribal emotional spectrum just doesn't include guilt.
Me? I'm an independent and I smuggle stuff. Anything and everywhere! No guilt, its just business. I have to admit to you though the biggest consumers of my smuggled 3d holo **** goes to the Amarrian priesthood. Priests are my best customers! It would seem the closer you get to certainty the further away you get from reality.
So if you do meet Sofia and Liberty and want to struggle over Amarrian values conflicting with your own and the burdens of immportality weighing heavily on your conscience... Then I sincerely wish you the best of luck with that!
If on the other hand you three girls want to just go out somewhere and get smashed then send me an invite! I'll bring a case Khanid Scotch, Blue Pills and my holo camera. |
Liberty Roach
October Country
15
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Posted - 2013.05.31 15:58:00 -
[88] - Quote
Kim Ji-Young wrote:How did my thread get sidetracked into this boring military-philosophical nonsense.
From here on out this thread is officially about kittens. What's your favorite color kitten?
Mine's the orangey stripey ones. |
Steffanie Saissore
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
Kim Ji-Young wrote:Steffanie Saissore wrote:I take a moment to remember the dead; for myself, I offer them a toast and a silent prayer. Another piece of feedback pointing in the direction that getting completely drunk is the solution. Thanks for your guidance on this matter.
Captain Ji-Young, I did not mean to imply that part of the solution was to get completely drunk, merely that my personal ritual involves a drink, usually a small glass of brandy and a prayer. It is the act of paying respect to those who were lost that keeps me 'grounded' and capable of continuing on to the next day and the next mission.
However, if you feel that getting completely drunk will work for you, I will gladly join you for a drink, or five....maybe even more. The point is, find what works for you and stick with it. There have been many good suggestions and perhaps you may come across your own method of coping.
Godspeed Captain. "When we are young, wandering the face of the Earth, wondering what our dreams might be worth, learning that we're only immortal for a limited time." |
Steffanie Saissore
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:26:00 -
[90] - Quote
Liberty Roach wrote:Kim Ji-Young wrote:How did my thread get sidetracked into this boring military-philosophical nonsense.
From here on out this thread is officially about kittens. What's your favorite color kitten? Mine's the orangey stripey ones.
I find the black and white kittens, tuxedo I believe is the term, to be one of my favorites. Then again, I am fond of all kittens. "When we are young, wandering the face of the Earth, wondering what our dreams might be worth, learning that we're only immortal for a limited time." |
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