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Haulin Gneiss
sweet riders
65
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Posted - 2013.05.29 05:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Any observations here? |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
92
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Posted - 2013.05.29 05:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
What is the alternate system that you propose to replace this integral part of the game?
And yes, stargates are very closely related to how your ship is handled on the server, which is the reason for the short loading time between each system jump. |
GreenSeed
342
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 05:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
gates are there because in the old days they wanted people to "meet". not having gates would require changing the way we look for each other. some sort of radar, like the old dscan but with a real functionality. and also a change in the way we travel.
think of games like SoaSE, that gravity well system can easily give eve another 10 years. or something more freeform like giving every ship a miniature JumpDrive and using stars as static Cynos. we could go jumping from star to star, so long as the destination star is within range.
anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone, same with highsec, at least in its current form.
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Ranek Tes
Tigers in the Snow Nyratic
0
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Posted - 2013.05.29 06:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
If it aint boken, don't fix it!? |
Gillia Winddancer
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 06:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gates ain't broken but they sure as hell are extremely limiting. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3714
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 06:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't see how gravity wells would encourage PVP in the same way that gates do.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Lord Haur
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
97
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Posted - 2013.05.29 06:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[citation needed] |
GreenSeed
342
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 06:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lord Haur wrote:GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[ citation needed]
FYC |
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
177
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:Lord Haur wrote:GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[ citation needed] FYC
Why would we need to get rid of gate camps? They're a perfectly legitimate way to protect your interests. Whether you consider keeping the dirty, dirty Hi Sec Hippies in their place, the non-elite non-null unwashed masses out of your territory, protecting your home Jspace from invaders, or are just bored/drunk/high and want to do something late night that doesn't require much effort (and can't be arsed to mine).
They're a pain when you get blown up, sure. but if you get blown up by a gate camp, you obviously didn't scout your way ahead using cloaky/frig. Or the campers have interceptors (or equivalent) dragging drones in which case good on them. |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
797
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:Lord Haur wrote:GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[ citation needed] FYC
Follow by your logic one could assume players already agreed they would like to see stations gone due to a number of whining about undock camps and station games. Oh and fleets too due to whining about OGBs. And tackle. And bumping. And guns. And market. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
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Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
177
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:GreenSeed wrote:Lord Haur wrote:GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[ citation needed] FYC Follow by your logic one could assume players already agreed they would like to see stations gone due to a number of whining about undock camps and station games. Oh and fleets too due to whining about OGBs. And tackle. And bumping. And guns. And market.
And mining. NOBODY likes mining. let's get rid of it.
Oh, and people hate getting blown up. let's get rid of that too. |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
797
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Himnos Altar wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:GreenSeed wrote:Lord Haur wrote:GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[ citation needed] FYC Follow by your logic one could assume players already agreed they would like to see stations gone due to a number of whining about undock camps and station games. Oh and fleets too due to whining about OGBs. And tackle. And bumping. And guns. And market. And mining. NOBODY likes mining. let's get rid of it. Oh, and people hate getting blown up. let's get rid of that too.
Eve. Nobody likes it, all you can see is compaining. Let's remove that and be finally happy. And free. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 09:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
well to get an idea why gates are needed . undock from your station . align to the nearest gate
engage micro warp drive .
you can let my grand kids know when you get to that gate .
As it stands eves construct is quite self explanatory for gates existing . they make travel between the stars possible.
if you want to travel to a system with out a gate you need some special equipment and logistics to do it .
either way moving between stars is not a simple matter of commanding the order engage, or JUMP!!, or attempting ludicrous speed.
in eve space is big just like real life . and trying to get any where with out the proper logistics will just end up being a very long trip which you may never see the end of.
in some ways its annoying but in others i think its one of the things that really seems to make eve real .
if you dont like it maybe propose an idea for some spice to be added to planetary interaction and then maybe you could fold space all the while mutating into a huge space worm . :) |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
696
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 09:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Eve. Nobody likes it, all you can see is compaining. Let's remove that and be finally happy. And free. Amen
|
Morrow Disca
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 09:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gates are Eve's PVP arena's. https://twitter.com/SniggWaffe |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
846
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 09:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Back when eve was a space combat game rather than a space farming game gates were implemented to have players meet. Without gates there would be no combat except bobbing over structures. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
545
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think gates, gate camps, and the options for getting through them are one of the most balanced and interesting mechanics in Eve right now. Why would you want to get rid of them? What is gaming when compared to rl? -á http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V7-1ndsiVNA&feature=endscreen |
Adunh Slavy
878
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gates exist to create artificial choke points, to force people into the same area. If gates were removed, then some other sort of mechanic would need to exist.
The link below is a bit dated but provides one possible approach on how to do this.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/AdunhSlavy/RSIV611.htm
In Short, change perfect knowledge to imperfect knowledge at the cost of time. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
545
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
I wouldn't mind seeing a few more options for both the campers and the runners; "nets" that could slow a cloaked ship from getting into warp, and maybe some more functionality with the MJD for running gate camps. But scrapping the whole system just isn't going to happen I think, too much of Eve is balanced specifically around gate combat.
As it stands now I can make it through 99% of empire camps and 60% of null camps. If I could adjust that I would make it 95% of low camps, and 80% of null. But really if lowsec campers were better at game mechanics it would be 95%, and if I was better then I could make it through 80% of null camps. So the game itself is pretty spot on imho.
The OP didn't say why it would be a good idea to remove gates and I haven't ever really seen a good argument for it. What is gaming when compared to rl? -á http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V7-1ndsiVNA&feature=endscreen |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
534
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
The fact that server or rather system architecture is designed around a server, node and grid model is of course the most obvious answer.
From a game design side the gates and the entire gate network is an obvious basis for both tactical and strategic game play.
No serious decision should ever be taken in Eve without consulting and pondering over the starmap (or more likely dotlan or Ombey's).
And besides, we already have ways to bypass the gates by using cynos and jump drives/portals.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
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Stegas Tyrano
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
477
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Removing gates will never happen because the mechanics and game play around them are too well established.
A more realistic idea would be to have Jump drive modules for sub-caps that consume fuel, giving you the freedom to jump between systems within a set range. The drawbacks will have to the requirement of cyno's (so campers know you're incoming and can warp to you) or make it so the Jump Drive can only jump to Stargate signatures (so you may be jumping into a camp).
Suggesting alternative idea's without risk or drawbacks is completely unbalanced. Herping your derp since 19Potato --á[Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1503
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gates are fine. It's by gameplay design and a server one. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Mhax Arthie
86
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Himnos Altar wrote:GreenSeed wrote:Lord Haur wrote:GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[ citation needed] FYC Why would we need to get rid of gate camps? They're a perfectly legitimate way to protect your interests. Whether you consider keeping the dirty, dirty Hi Sec Hippies in their place, the non-elite non-null unwashed masses out of your territory, protecting your home Jspace from invaders, or are just bored/drunk/high and want to do something late night that doesn't require much effort (and can't be arsed to mine). They're a pain when you get blown up, sure. but if you get blown up by a gate camp, you obviously didn't scout your way ahead using cloaky/frig. Or the campers have interceptors (or equivalent) dragging drones in which case good on them. Actually the gates should be player built. To enter you need to hack it, blow it up or much better.. send in a gift, like a space troian horse. |
Adunh Slavy
878
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
I'll give you a few, some more serious than others ...
It's space! Gates make Eve feel small, confined and arena like. Space should feel huge, expansive, limitless.
Gates are too predictable and repetitive. Not only are they just simply repetitive from a day to day travel perspective, but they create repetitive PVP situations.
They encourage blobbing. Eve already has reasons to blob, the blockade unit, the TCU, the POS, the Outpost/Station and now Dust orbital support.
It's space, it should be freaking huge with very few places to hide other than in the vastness of it and maneuver to flanks. Space combat will have more in common with desert combat than what Eve expresses. Fast moving, hard hitting small groups of skirmishes and pickets leading up to the large siege. Not a barbarians at the castle gate, over and over and over again. |
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
I just got back last night and got to see some new changes. The jumppoints in space are a nice touch, it really helps put the perceived distance you must travel on your journey in perspective.
I understand the technical reasons they exist, and I understand the game mechanic reasons for their existence, though I don't necessarily agree with them. In a Utopian space based mmo I would prefer pvp be fought over resource points and structures than through choke points, but the structure of this game isnt exactly conducive to such an endeavor.
I wonder how many of you have read the Alliance/Union universe novels by C.J. Cherryh? I thin I'd like to see a game that employs that sort of travel. Briefly,the ftl travel poses a problem for mmo's because of timescales involved but the gist is ships use a stars mass to pull them from jumpspace, but it's not an exact science so the exact point of entry isn't known, but anyone tracking a ship from a previous star would know what general vector the ship would be coming in on and for a brief time neither side would be aware of the others presence. I think that would make for awesome cat and mouse games, especially for freighters. |
Haulin Gneiss
sweet riders
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanks to everyone for your insightful comments. I guess I feel that eve is a very flat and linear game with respect to how you travel. The gate concept just seems too simple/easy given that they were here before humanoids arrived on scene.
There should be a mechanic where a player can warp/jump within a given distance to other stars and face certain penalties for the convenience. Perhaps a "cool down" period on the ship where you cannot warp/cloak after a long system to system jump or a time penalty where the trip is not instantaneous but takes say 5 minutes. |
Haulie Berry
804
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:Lord Haur wrote:GreenSeed wrote:anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone
[ citation needed] FYC
So, search results for the term "gatecamp", sans any context whatsoever, is indicative of a desire to remove gates?
******* airtight syllogism, there. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
545
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Haulin Gneiss wrote:Thanks to everyone for your insightful comments. I guess I feel that eve is a very flat and linear game with respect to how you travel. The gate concept just seems too simple/easy given that they were here before humanoids arrived on scene.
There should be a mechanic where a player can warp/jump within a given distance to other stars and face certain penalties for the convenience. Perhaps a "cool down" period on the ship where you cannot warp/cloak after a long system to system jump or a time penalty where the trip is not instantaneous but takes say 5 minutes.
So its a storyline issue for you? Not to minimize that in any way, story and coherency are a very important part of Eve, I'm just trying to understand why you don't like gate travel. The OP seemed to just assume that people don't like it and would like a change if something "better" was available.
For myself that is not the case. I think the gates themselves speak of long lost mysteries, and the mechanic is a good conflict driver. I can't imagine another form of interstellar travel filling both those capacities as well.
What is gaming when compared to rl? -á http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V7-1ndsiVNA&feature=endscreen |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
437
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote: anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone, same with highsec, at least in its current form.
Ah, so you are the majority of players? Otherwise this sentence would look really weird.
_______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
4139
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
So, all of this because one of OPs toons died to a gate camp.
When youre the gatecamper: gates working as intended. When youre the victim: gates are horribly broken, remove all the gates because (reasons/tears) and replace with (bad idea/no idea). Everyone else: Who cares. Why fix what aint broken. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2815
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Imagine if ships could dial in a system to system warp (mechanics aside for now) the way they do it in our favorite science fiction worlds like Star Trek and Star Wars.
(Though as I recall from Tie Fighter there are such things are Gravity Wells - I think - memory is old on this)
Imagine what this would do to small fleet PVP?
Imagine the end of gate camps, a damaging way to play for both the campers and the campees. Seriously, if you can sit at a gate all day for a KM, you have the same dysfunction as an apergian ISK-snatching miner in high sec for whom tanking their ship was considered sacrilege.
Imagine what this would do for nullsec. I have "imitated" the effects of system to system warp by using wormholes. I have spent MONTHS. Yes, MONTHS, in nullsec without seeing another ship. I said MONTHS.
That's how deserted it is out there, because the nullsec overlords have their renters manning gank pipelines, where people who are just as weird as highsec miner/grinders will sit at a gate all day killing everything that's "not blue". Nullsec is indeed safer than highsec if it can be said that you are 100 percent safe when nobody is in local. I have seen KMs of T3 cruisers that were caught off stations in low structure because someone volleyed it with a BS just to get a T3 kill and Concorde be damned (heck I think anybody would be enticed by that and anybody hanging off a station in a T3 with nearly no structure left is a kind of stupid begging to be "cured").
Imagine those gate camps replaced by combat patrols. Imagine being able to "raid" nullsec. Oh the overlords in CSM would never accept that. They like to raid highsec though.
Now imagine ships being able to dial in system to system warp, AND resources becoming limited such that a moon can be sucked dry and have to be left alone for a time, and high sec systems to eventually be cleared of rocks too. If you want to build 20 titans tomorrow, you could do so, but run out of natural resources, then you have to avoid "stupid ship loss" or you are done. Imagine when everybody and their brother is running missions and eventually the pirate factions are like "Everybody and their brother is here to kill us. Time to move out". Yes, even the missions dry up.
People forced to spread out...
Why, this might actually become a true PVP game fueled by the very same thing that fuels all conflict (known as "limited resources") instead of corporatism being protected by a ring of gank.
Let ships warp on their own, and things will be stirred up big time. Everybody says this is a sandbox, yet imagine a sandbox where there are only certain paths you can go on to get from one end to the other. Not really a sandbox then.
Would it be bad? Well, making resources expire would be bad for the ISK ISK and more ISK player who can mine and mission mindlessly all day with their eye on their wallet. It would be bad for the KM-addicts who can sit on a gate all day and have nothing else to do but kill everything that moved for no reason. Why rag on a playstyle one would ask? But it never feels like the people involved in these playstyles are actually playing a game. I think ritalin is involved. Or maybe it's self-abuse. Make system to system warp possible and all mining/mission resources finite and we actually have a game. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2563
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
DP There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1924
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sometimes it's hard to see how important some things are because they've always been there. Kind of like my college roommate freshman year, we came from the same town and he was all rebellious and couldn't wait to get away from his overbearing parents.....so as a college freshman every night he was on the phone.....with his mom.
EVE without gates (or some other really important core feature) might seem like a good idea, but when you remove or change the things a game is built around, you thing find yourself dealing with all the unintended consequences that feature holds in check. "Change now!" people can really be short sighted sometimes. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2563
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
It has been one of my fantasies to see the gate system changed to be more like Freelancer.
It would prevent bottlenecks and encourage PVP due to being able to knock people out of warp between gate exits.
As well, it would open up the systems and make them feel larger due to having no integral warp capabilities. You'd need to take the gate system to the node nearest your location and slowboat from there. That also opens up more opportunities for PVP.
In my opinion, CCP needs to do something as when you have only one pirate activity (gate camping), and only one way to do it (sit at a gate until your brain bleeds from boredom), the game starts to feel stale.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2953
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
How else are you ever going to get to another system? Are you really willing to spend a year in warp just to get next door? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Plyn
STEEL CITY. Tribal Band
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
System gates exist in EvE to create transportation choke-points that force opportunities for interaction and PvP. Hossenfeffer. |
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:41:00 -
[37] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Back when eve was a space combat game rather than a space farming game gates were implemented to have players meet. Without gates there would be no combat except bobbing over structures.
Sounds like they need to add some actual content. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1924
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
You need 3 people for that, and you and me are only 2.
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
762
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Imagine if ships could dial in a system to system warp (mechanics aside for now) the way they do it in our favorite science fiction worlds like Star Trek and Star Wars.
(Though as I recall from Tie Fighter there are such things are Gravity Wells - I think - memory is old on this)
Imagine what this would do to small fleet PVP?
Imagine the end of gate camps, a damaging way to play for both the campers and the campees. Seriously, if you can sit at a gate all day for a KM, you have the same dysfunction as an apergian ISK-snatching miner in high sec for whom tanking their ship was considered sacrilege.
Imagine what this would do for nullsec. I have "imitated" the effects of system to system warp by using wormholes. I have spent MONTHS. Yes, MONTHS, in nullsec without seeing another ship. I said MONTHS.
That's how deserted it is out there, because the nullsec overlords have their renters manning gank pipelines, where people who are just as weird as highsec miner/grinders will sit at a gate all day killing everything that's "not blue". Nullsec is indeed safer than highsec if it can be said that you are 100 percent safe when nobody is in local. I have seen KMs of T3 cruisers that were caught off stations in low structure because someone volleyed it with a BS just to get a T3 kill and Concorde be damned (heck I think anybody would be enticed by that and anybody hanging off a station in a T3 with nearly no structure left is a kind of stupid begging to be "cured").
Imagine those gate camps replaced by combat patrols. Imagine being able to "raid" nullsec. Oh the overlords in CSM would never accept that. They like to raid highsec though.
Now imagine ships being able to dial in system to system warp, AND resources becoming limited such that a moon can be sucked dry and have to be left alone for a time, and high sec systems to eventually be cleared of rocks too. If you want to build 20 titans tomorrow, you could do so, but run out of natural resources, then you have to avoid "stupid ship loss" or you are done. Imagine when everybody and their brother is running missions and eventually the pirate factions are like "Everybody and their brother is here to kill us. Time to move out". Yes, even the missions dry up.
People forced to spread out...
Why, this might actually become a true PVP game fueled by the very same thing that fuels all conflict (known as "limited resources") instead of corporatism being protected by a ring of gank.
Let ships warp on their own, and things will be stirred up big time. Everybody says this is a sandbox, yet imagine a sandbox where there are only certain paths you can go on to get from one end to the other. Not really a sandbox then.
Would it be bad? Well, making resources expire would be bad for the ISK ISK and more ISK player who can mine and mission mindlessly all day with their eye on their wallet. It would be bad for the KM-addicts who can sit on a gate all day and have nothing else to do but kill everything that moved for no reason. Why rag on a playstyle one would ask? But it never feels like the people involved in these playstyles are actually playing a game. I think ritalin is involved. Or maybe it's self-abuse. Make system to system warp possible and all mining/mission resources finite and we actually have a game.
Getting whatever space or resources over there and be able to keep them would be different than now that everything is about TCU IHUB and whatnot structures boring shooting and sit still on the passive defensive capabilities this mechanic is about on top of Gates passive defensive intell (which is different from local) "hey I'm here I'm gonna mess with your crap and shite on your shoes".
Small gangs could harass large coalitions and fleets because those couldn't predict at any point from where and how many you could be or come from, defending and keeping your space would require different organization but also increase players interactions and most important make the unpredictable factors stronger.
How many chances you have to see a large super/titan fleet it it's not because some FC did a stupid thing with his tr+ál+ál+á (NC 16 Supers killed last year and DBRD mistake leading to one of the best and huge epic fights), or because they're burning some TCU IHUB?
Choke points have their advantages for some game style but those are always one sided and probably most of these in favor for the defender very little to none for the aggressor.
Small roaming fleets of frigs or cruisers could do some stuff but their "small stuff" would have a meaning and effect on the defender no matter how large this one could be, the "butterfly effect" reinforced, right now those are just entertaining tourists that have no chance of disrupting whatever and once they get a bit too noisy and jerk talking you just undock the required stuff and get them a fast pod ticket home with a 52.
Gates have advantages it's undeniable but other optional traveling ways should exist to increase players decisions and actions leading to effective unpredictable consequences. On the negative side gates are also a dead trap possible to make it so there's no way in hell you can go through by any means unless you have a far largest number of mates than those camping., this is not really pvp, it's ducks games but with spaceships. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1368
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 16:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote: think of games like SoaSE, that gravity well system can easily give eve another 10 years. or something more freeform like giving every ship a miniature JumpDrive and using stars as static Cynos. we could go jumping from star to star, so long as the destination star is within range.
Isn't star to star static position to static position, just as gates does? SoaSE's gravity well system was neaaaaaaaat but doesn't allow for easy bottlenecking (and thereby tactical deployment) as gates do. Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
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Adunh Slavy
880
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
All Eve needs for gateless PVP is a basic change to the directional scanner. Imagine if the DS always gave you a warpable result. The more narrow you set the scan, and the shorter the range, the more accurate it would be. but even at 256 AU range and 360 degrees, your result would get you closer to your target.
The opposing cost, for the traveler, would be the time it takes to get from system to system. They have to sit still, wait three minutes then can "jump", if they warp, cloak, MWD they have to start that process over again.
I might be a space game, but this isn't rocket science. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
546
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:All Eve needs for gateless PVP is a basic change to the directional scanner. Imagine if the DS always gave you a warpable result. The more narrow you set the scan, and the shorter the range, the more accurate it would be. but even at 256 AU range and 360 degrees, your result would get you closer to your target.
The opposing cost, for the traveler, would be the time it takes to get from system to system. They have to sit still, wait three minutes then can "jump", if they warp, cloak, MWD they have to start that process over again.
I might be a space game, but this isn't rocket science.
It seems like that would be a huge nerf to missioners and people doing sites. As things stand now its a pretty good balance; a missioner paying attention to the dscan and chain jumping will be fine, If the dscan has warpable results those guys will be in trouble.
What is gaming when compared to rl? -á http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V7-1ndsiVNA&feature=endscreen |
Adunh Slavy
881
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
It seems like that would be a huge nerf to missioners and people doing sites. As things stand now its a pretty good balance; a missioner paying attention to the dscan and chain jumping will be fine, If the dscan has warpable results those guys will be in trouble.
HTFU?
Also, there is nothing stopping the code from giving less accurate results for dead space areas. Heck, might even be cool to give less accurate results for objects that are near the magnetic poles of planets and things of that nature. Also nothing holding anything back from having an active/passive type of arragement with pings, echos and em or gravemetric shadows.
There's a wealth of options. |
Praetor Meles
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
Good grief! You didn't sign that post! Mr Epeen, is it really you? [insert random rubbish that irritates you personally] is further evidence that Eve is dying/thriving*
* delete as required to make your point |
Haulin Gneiss
sweet riders
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:So, all of this because one of OPs toons died to a gate camp.
When youre the gatecamper: gates working as intended. When youre the victim: gates are horribly broken, remove all the gates because (reasons/tears) and replace with (bad idea/no idea). Everyone else: Who cares. Why fix what aint broken.
This is not the case. I died at a gate camp due to my stupidity....it was on the outbound side of the gate (I was leaving the system and they nabbed me).
If you hang this on storyline then why in the hell would an advanced race put gates connecting systems where you have to go system to system and not...say a gate that jumps from Dodixie to Jita direct? It would also stand to reason that the entities that were here before didn't connect all of the stars and therefore we're due more races, ships, and other reasonable expectations outside of space owned by bi-pedal monkey offspring.
I'm liking the spice space folding worm mutant storyline more and more.
Simple fact. the mechanic should be looked at instead of fancier gate animations that distract from the real problem. |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
600
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 22:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
Destoya wrote:What is the alternate system that you propose to replace this integral part of the game?
And yes, stargates are very closely related to how your ship is handled on the server, which is the reason for the short loading time between each system jump. I prposed a system last year involving all ships getting jump drives. In general the response revolved around the lore (because lore stops science from progressing), but mostly it was boo hoo about losing a choke point to gate camp.
I am hoping the MJD and other changes are a step to getting rid of gates. Just give me a list of available systems, with each system having a list of available jump in points (including safe spots) and let me have at. Then we could get rid of Concord at gates and... This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 00:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
Use the game, not change the game.
Don't like gates, fly around in a jump freighter |
Magin Thel Melkan
Core World Imperium
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 03:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote: anyway, regardless of how it happens, i think its already agreed among players that eventually we would like to see them gone, same with highsec, at least in its current form.
Speak for yourself please. And if hi sec disappears and I (and others) start loosing frieghters at 1.3B a pop, you will probably find yourself with a serious toy shortage. |
Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops
1499
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 04:55:00 -
[49] - Quote
Haulin Gneiss wrote:Any observations here?
Because otherwise you would literally never have to see other pilots. Just think I could fly straight into deep goon carebear space and kill mission runners in one long warp and no one would be able to stop me. You need gates to bottleneck player routes so that PvP can actually occur and so people can protect or attack other people's space. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 05:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
The only way to remove gates would be to provide some other method to travel between star systems. Would be great if there was some small sized jump drive that could lock onto a distant star and give a random destination jump into that system. But would even capsules be able to jump from system to system?
Then there's the interaction point that gates provide - without that, you'd have to replace the 'just about anyone coming or going from our space will be going through here' idea with a system that says 'there is this guy over here, so it you want him, go get him. While yes, that would be awesome to have a fully live intelligence system in eve, where gang/corp/alliance mates could connect to an intel net, and their scanner information is updated, triangulated, etc - with that information aggregated and supplied to those same members in the form of warpable coordinates of any DETECTED craft (with variable level of detail and accuracy) - including sov and pos based structures also connected the intelnet to assist in adding home field advantage... I don't know that that would be any BETTER than the current mechanic, just different - and something that would be a little too drastic of a change for a live running universe to absorb. |
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Idicious Lightbane
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 06:08:00 -
[51] - Quote
The ability to travel without gates exists already, and they require a large amount of effort. People who put in the effort to make it possible should have an advantage, those who don't will have chokepoints to move through. I'm of course referring to titan bridging and jumpbridge networks. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
559
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 11:08:00 -
[52] - Quote
Haulin Gneiss wrote: This is not the case. I died at a gate camp due to my stupidity....it was on the outbound side of the gate (I was leaving the system and they nabbed me).
If you hang this on storyline then why in the hell would an advanced race put gates connecting systems where you have to go system to system and not...say a gate that jumps from Dodixie to Jita direct? It would also stand to reason that the entities that were here before didn't connect all of the stars and therefore we're due more races, ships, and other reasonable expectations outside of space owned by bi-pedal monkey offspring.
I'm liking the spice space folding worm mutant storyline more and more.
Simple fact. the mechanic should be looked at instead of fancier gate animations that distract from the real problem.
Narrative and fluff are usually not a reason to alter mechanics, especially in this case. There's plenty of storyline reasons why gates would exist as they currently do; perhaps its far cheaper energy wise to bridge adjacent systems or maybe there is a risk of failure with gates that jump over multiple systems, maybe its part of the Yulai treaty that long bridges not be constructed in empire space.
You say "simple fact" like there is a problem and yet you only put forth these fluff ideas about what gates would theoretically be like. There is no problem with them currently, there may be ways to improve travel in Eve, but the current system works well enough.
The only simple fact here is that you died at a gate due to your own stupidity. What is gaming when compared to rl? -á http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=V7-1ndsiVNA&feature=endscreen |
Lord Haur
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 16:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Haulin Gneiss wrote: This is not the case. I died at a gate camp due to my stupidity....it was on the outbound side of the gate (I was leaving the system and they nabbed me).
If you hang this on storyline then why in the hell would an advanced race put gates connecting systems where you have to go system to system and not...say a gate that jumps from Dodixie to Jita direct? It would also stand to reason that the entities that were here before didn't connect all of the stars and therefore we're due more races, ships, and other reasonable expectations outside of space owned by bi-pedal monkey offspring.
I'm liking the spice space folding worm mutant storyline more and more.
Simple fact. the mechanic should be looked at instead of fancier gate animations that distract from the real problem.
Narrative and fluff are usually not a reason to alter mechanics, especially in this case. There's plenty of storyline reasons why gates would exist as they currently do; perhaps its far cheaper energy wise to bridge adjacent systems or maybe there is a risk of failure with gates that jump over multiple systems, maybe its part of the Yulai treaty that long bridges not be constructed in empire space. You say "simple fact" like there is a problem and yet you only put forth these fluff ideas about what gates would theoretically be like. There is no problem with them currently, there may be ways to improve travel in Eve, but the current system works well enough. The only simple fact here is that you died at a gate due to your own stupidity. There used to be Highway gates in 2003/4/5. They got removed because it caused everyone to bunch at their central hub in Yulai, with the RP reason being the increase of hostilities between the four empires, which came to a head in Empyrean Age and still bubbles away.
Having a gate between Dodixie and Jita just means that anyone who would have gone to Dodixie goes (or tries to go) to Jita instead. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3715
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
Haulin Gneiss wrote:Thanks to everyone for your insightful comments. I guess I feel that eve is a very flat and linear game with respect to how you travel. The gate concept just seems too simple/easy given that they were here before humanoids arrived on scene.
There should be a mechanic where a player can warp/jump within a given distance to other stars and face certain penalties for the convenience. Perhaps a "cool down" period on the ship where you cannot warp/cloak after a long system to system jump or a time penalty where the trip is not instantaneous but takes say 5 minutes.
That kind of system would require some sort of 'grouping' mechanic to ensure that players actually run across each other. Something like entering a system lights up a signature people can warp to and you can't warp out or cloak for 2 minutes. Alternatively, people "coast" in system and always appear at the sun before regaining control of their ship. Additionally, the creation of choke points would require a massive restructuring of the star map.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea or that it could never work in a space PVP game. I'm saying it's a bad idea and could never work for Eve.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Gustaf Heleneto
The Separatists Double Tap.
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
Please let me jump my freighter alt directly from Jita 4-4 to Amarr! No more ganking! Ohhhh, and the drrrruuuuugggggssss I would smuggle!!
Happy day.
Why even undock? When are we going to get teleport pads and just beam ourselves and our goods from station to station? Star Trek has them... |
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