Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
4146
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Because people like their Commodore 64s and with a mass upgrade of equipment on the consumer end, CCP will be forced to upgrade their hamsters from standard pet store brand to atomic mutant hamster/guinea pig hybrids. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
875
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers... I'm not entirely clear on the point of this, but I do have a sudden urge to jump in a catalyst and blow up a miner. Twitter! - @AzamiNevinyrall I'm half expecting a ban for this post. |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
Yell at Microsoft for continuing to make 32 bit operating systems.
I would agree though to change eve to 64 bits. |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers...
Ummm...the servers are 64bit. Have been for some time now. In fact I recall they have been since 2008. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1458
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade?
And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit?
It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14396
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
When it becomes possible (depending on third-party middleware) and meaningful (depending on OS spread) and/or useful (depending on benefits vs. costs) to do so.
I.e. probably not in a while. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1464
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
The important question is what would Eve specifically have to gain from running a 64 bit client as opposed to the 32 bit one? What direct gains to the application could be realized by doing so? Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:When it becomes possible (depending on third-party middleware) and meaningful (depending on OS spread) and/or useful (depending on benefits vs. costs) to do so.
I.e. probably not in a while.
It is possible...it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. Personally I think it is silly the CCP's is letting the hands be tide be a group of players that refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs. I think it is the onus of the players to keep up with the requirements of the game and not the developers to maintain old tech just to appease these hold-outs.
We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have - instead of being hamstrung using archaic 32 bit client. We've seen what this game could look like with tessellation. We've seen what it would look like if the developers could make use of DX11. It would run smoother and not melt our machines CPU's and GPU's because the old game code is so 10 years ago.
Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Barakach
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
158
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Is it really a minority of players that is holding back the advancement of EVE to a 64bit client? How many people still use Win 98 or XP to play EVE Online? We can't have nice things like tessellation, DX11, or utilize more memory until the minority hold-outs upgrade their gaming systems. My question is...when will CCP realize that the rest of the gaming world has moved onto 21st century tech and they are still working with tech from 2001 and their game engine needs a major upgrade? Will the game continue to be held back by the minority of players that are too cheap to upgrade? And what benefit do you see from changing Eve from 32 bit to 64 bit? It's not like Eve is using anywhere near the 32 bit limits. Sub 1GB atm.
1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14396
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:It is possible. Is it? Could you please list the full set of middleware EVE is using and show that they have fully functional 64bit versions, since that's what's made it impossible so far.
Quote:it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. [citation needed]
Quote:We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have Tesselation and DX11 are not contingent on 64-bit, and there's no need for more memory.
Barakach wrote:1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler GǪand EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
In case you haven't seen what EVE Online looks like with DX11 and tessellation(not to mention better in game physics) here is a link to the demo that CCP did in 2012 at Fanfest. EVE Online Demo 2012 Video Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:In case you haven't seen what EVE Online looks like with DX11 and tessellation(not to mention better in game physics) here is a link to the demo that CCP did in 2012 at Fanfest. EVE Online Demo 2012 Video GǪand that has nothing to do with going 64-bit. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:It is possible. Is it? Could you please list the full set of middleware EVE is using and show that they have fully functional 64bit versions, since that's what's made it impossible so far. Quote:it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. [citation needed] Quote:We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have Tesselation and DX11 are not contingent on 64-bit, and there's no need for more memory. Barakach wrote:1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers 2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers 3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers 4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler GǪand EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE?
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1465
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
Attacking the person instead of their argument is usually a sign you've run out of ways to defend your side of the discussion. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98 No.
Quote:(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. Ah. Making things up rather than actually addressing the points. Good tactic.
Quote:The game would run better - end of story. GǪor it might not run at all because there would be missing components. And no, that's not the end of the story. Simply going 64 bit doesn't automatically make a program run better, and any potential gain that could be had needs to be weighed against the costs of gaining it.
I can only conclude that you are wilfully ignoring those costs, which, combined with your inability to list any reason to pay those costs that doesn't build on some kind of fallacy, means your entire argument has no basis.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. The game would run better - end of story. Old OS's like Win 98 and XP cannot take advantage of modern, up-to-date graphics cards and CPU's - argue about it all you want - that is fact.
Attacking the person instead of their argument is usually a sign you've run out of ways to defend your side of the discussion.
Nope...just stating a fact. Go read Tippia's post history. It speaks volumes on where Tippia stands when it comes to CCP making the game better. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Nope...just stating a fact. You haven't stated a single fact in this entire thread.
So, let's go back to that basic question and see if you can do it at least once: what benefit do you see from changing EVE from 32 to 64 bit?
Quote:Go read Tippia's post history. It speaks volumes on where Tippia stands when it comes to CCP making the game better. Prove it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia - you are one of the people that is probably still running Win 98 No. Quote:(if I remember correctly you have said this in previous post that you are still running the game on this). I've seen you argue against CCP making the game better since forever. Ah. Making things up rather than actually addressing the points. Good tactic. Quote:The game would run better - end of story. GǪor it might not run at all because there would be missing components. And no, that's not the end of the story. Simply going 64 bit doesn't automatically make a program run better, and any potential gain that could be had needs to be weighed against the costs of gaining it. I can only conclude that you are wilfully ignoring those costs, which, combined with your inability to list any reason to pay those costs that doesn't build on some kind of fallacy, means your entire argument has no basis.
So you're going to continue to use that lame argument that there is no benefit and EVE would not run better with 64bit client?
Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. Keep trying to deny it. Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
When you move from 32 bit to 64 bit, yes, your integer math can deal with numbers twice as big. That's a win. There are a few more registers, which is good for compiler optimisation. But think about it: all of your pointers are twice as large, and the average program has plenty of those. Your memory usage goes UP because of it, and so does your cache thrashing.
It's not a win to go native 64 bit, unless you're paging from massive files (over 4Gb) or something. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:So you're going to continue to use that lame argument that there is no benefit and EVE would not run better with 64bit client? I have to start before I can continue. What benefit do you see from changing EVE from 32 to 64 bit?
Quote:Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. No, it wouldn't. The game uses less than 1GB RAM and doesn't need, nor would it use the added memory a 64-bit-licensed Windows machine opens up.
Quote:You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. Yes you can.
Quote:If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. EVE already can make use of more memory, but it doesn't. So what makes you believe that there would be any kind of improvement? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote: Just being able to utilize more memory would benefit the game. You cannot use more than 2GB with a 32bit system. If EVE could make use of more memory it would definitely see a marked improvement in how it runs. Keep trying to deny it.
Why does Eve need to use more than 2Gb? Its biggest assets by far are textures, and those are managed by the graphics driver. The graphics driver has a paging model, allowing it to do what it wants GPU-side. They don't have to be resident CPU side at all.
|
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:When you move from 32 bit to 64 bit, yes, your integer math can deal with numbers twice as big. That's a win. There are a few more registers, which is good for compiler optimisation. But think about it: all of your pointers are twice as large, and the average program has plenty of those. Your memory usage goes UP because of it, and so does your cache thrashing.
It's not a win to go native 64 bit, unless you're paging from massive files (over 4Gb) or something.
Yes, but they are optimized for 64bit and so are modern CPU's with multiple cores. CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't.
This is why we can't have good things in EVE. :( Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4194
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
All that being said (64 bit argument aside) I personally would like to see DX11 and Tessellation utilized in EvE... which will require the user base to upgrade from XP or older. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't. Again, [citation needed] and no, none of those require a 64-bit client. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:CCP Explorer has all ready said that EVE would run so much better if they could make us of multi-core and multi-thread programming that a 64bit client would allow for, and the greater memory access - and 32bit doesn't. Again, [citation needed] and no, none of those require a 64-bit client.
Here is your citation.
#67 Posted: 2012.06.26 20:26 | Report
PinkKnife wrote: Would it make a large difference? Is it worth doing? Hard to implement?
CCP Explorer wrote: That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit but has everything to do with single core vs. multi core. And also 1 GB of RAM vs. 8 GB, but 8 GB allows the operating system to cache much more aggressively. Also, I daresay that there are very different graphics cards in these two machines?
Let's start with the number of cores: Even just a dual core makes a tremendous difference. That way EVE can be running on one core but the operating system can do network and hard disk IO on the other, in addition to running other programs (such as your browser, media player, antivirus, ...). You don't get a lot in addition with 8 cores unless you are running a lot of programs.
More RAM: More RAM is better since that allows the operating system to cache more of the file system. As soon as you have started one client then starting the second client will be a lot faster since the file IO actually doesn't hit the disk.
SSD: This is the best thing you can do for your computer. I have a three-year old laptop that I recently upgraded by replacing the spindle disk with an SSD (and upgraded from 2 GB to 8 GB RAM). It's a "new" machine.
Graphics card: This is the next-best thing you can do for your computer (if you play games). But do note that you want to buy from the high-end of a line of cards; if you need to buy something less expensive then you might be better off buying the high-end card from from the next line below what you really wanted.
Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Here is your citation. GǪand no link. Goodie. AnywayGǪCCP Explorer wrote:That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit GǪthere you go. As expected. He also doesn't make any of the other claims you proposed. Also as expected. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Khira Kitamatsu
530
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Here is your citation. GǪand no link. Goodie. AnywayGǪ CCP Explorer wrote:That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bit GǪthere you go. As expected. He also doesn't make any of the other claims you proposed. Also as expected.
No need to provide a link...those are his words. His saying that 32bit vs 64bit was regarding something else in the conversation that I took his quote from..."When people figure out that a 64 bit client will load a grid or change session faster than the people waiting for them in the bubble camp, you won't need an x32 client any more." This is what he was commenting on.
Oh and Windows 98 and XP cannot access more than 3.5 GB - no matter what you do - can't be done.
And yes Tippia, he clearly states that more EVE would run better with more memory and multi-cores. Is your reading comprehension that bad? Ponies!-á We need more ponies! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14398
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:No need to provide a link... GǪaside from context, verification, further explanations. You know, the things that give a greater meaning to his saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming.
Quote:His saying that 32bit vs 64bit was regarding something else in the conversation that I took his quote from. So it doesn't actually prove your claims in any way then. So that's not the citation asked for. Goodie. Can you provide one that does?
Quote:"When people figure out that a 64 bit client will load a grid or change session faster than the people waiting for them in the bubble camp, you won't need an x32 client any more." This is what he was commenting on. GǪand answered that GÇ£That has nothing to do with 32 bit vs. 64 bitGÇ¥. So there you go GÇö still not making any of the claims you proposed.
Quote:Oh and Windows 98 and XP cannot access more than 3.5 GB - no matter what you do - can't be done. Those are licensing restrictions, not something that depends on 32 vs 64 bit.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2362
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:Tippia wrote:When it becomes possible (depending on third-party middleware) and meaningful (depending on OS spread) and/or useful (depending on benefits vs. costs) to do so.
I.e. probably not in a while. It is possible...it is a minority of players that is holding advancement back. The developers themselves have said repeatedly. Personally I think it is silly the CCP's is letting the hands be tide be a group of players that refuse to upgrade their gaming rigs. I think it is the onus of the players to keep up with the requirements of the game and not the developers to maintain old tech just to appease these hold-outs. We could have tessellation, DX11 and our systems utilize the memory we have - instead of being hamstrung using archaic 32 bit client. We've seen what this game could look like with tessellation. We've seen what it would look like if the developers could make use of DX11. It would run smoother and not melt our machines CPU's and GPU's because the old game code is so 10 years ago.
So tessellation is not free, there will be a big art effort as well as testing to enable tessellation, it isn't a "set a bit and everything is pretty" thing. Additionally as mentioned in this thread in other places 64 bit isn't going to gain any benefits till the client is rewritten to take advantage of the 64 bit instruction set and memory space. CCP would almost certainly have to maintain and support both 32 bit and 64 bit for a while which takes up resources.
So the question is do we want CCP doing that or working on stuff like modular POSs?
I'd say tessellation and 64 bit can wait while CCP focuses on stuff we will enjoy more.
Issler |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |