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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
26
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Posted - 2011.10.21 20:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
About damn time
Thoughts on this?
I personally think it's long overdue, but I commend him for sticking to his guns and following through with his pledge. The Iraqi government of course wanted them to stay in order to have someone else do their work for them but it seems he was having none of it, which I applaud.
It will be better for both countries. |
Lithalnas
Privateers Privateer Alliance
3
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well political stuff is banned from the forums so I am not going to touch it with a ten foot poll.
My eleven foot poll says wait and see what happens. How to build a PC for EVE thread (by Akira T) http://eve-search.com/thread/1559734-0/page/1
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
26
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not trying to make it political or anything, just relaying the news. I think we can share opinions without getting political, or at least I hope so. |
Citizen20100211442
Carebear Evolution AEQUITAS.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thats just very old news One Nation , One Race One Folk, One Faith! |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
26
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
We have no way of knowing whether or not RP would've done what he claimed to do in the specific timeline in which he claimed to do it either.
That's the equivalent of asking Joe Schmoe on the street what to do. Argument holds no water. |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.22 00:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
In other news: The number of security contractors in Iraq will increase.
Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat desert first! |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
26
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Posted - 2011.10.22 01:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
We all knew that was going to happen. However, that's a CHOICE. They're paid craploads of money to do it and they're private corporations. It's no different than working the oil fields. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
60
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Posted - 2011.10.22 01:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Those solders are going somewhere else. Probably Pakistan or Iran.
But I expect to hear a lot of "hey, he got the troops out of Iraq!! Four more years!!!!1!" Meanwhile, we still have hundreds of bases overseas, still in Afghanistan, and whatever happens in Pakistan and Iran, I expect the media to be real quiet about it.
I don't know what's worse. The lying media sock puppets or the people who believe them.
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
26
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Posted - 2011.10.22 01:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
How would they go to either country? Are you saying they'll be based there or that they're going to attack those countries?
If it's the former, that's simply impossible as neither country will allow them to stay there. If it's the latter...well, let's hope it's not. At least in Pakistan's case.
EDIT: Ah, it's late. Misread what you wrote. Going to bed now. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
34
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Posted - 2011.10.22 02:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
The only reason it is happening now is because the Iraqis would not extend the status of forces agreement. |
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Pj Harvey
Ship spinners inc
1
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Posted - 2011.10.22 03:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
They'll probably need those soldiers so they can once again fumble about in the invasion of some other sovereign nation and get bled by insurgents bit by bit until they pull out after leaving a proxy government behind so they can then go on to yet another nation to buffoon through it and the cycle repeats until the middle east is under the control of America and Israel.
Personally I like to see Americans getting killed in the middle east, the Arabs are fighting an invader and I hope they win. |
KaarBaak
122
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 03:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Astenion wrote:About damn timeThoughts on this? I personally think it's long overdue, but I commend him for sticking to his guns and following through with his pledge. The Iraqi government of course wanted them to stay in order to have someone else do their work for them but it seems he was having none of it, which I applaud. It will be better for both countries.
I too applaud this action. However, you seem to have things backward: Obama/DoD wanted to keep troops there, but Iraq had the gall to insist that foreign troops operating in their country would be subject to Iraqi law for certain offenses. US couldn't take the risk, as it's soldiers have a track record of **** and murder of civilians in host countries and would prefer the cover of military trials over foreign civilian courts.
TL;DR: US wanted to stay, Iraq said follow our laws or leave. US leaves. Politicians spin it. |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.10.22 07:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The only reason it is happening now is because the Iraqis would not extend the status of forces agreement. Or this is a maneuver to win over more electors. Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat desert first! |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.10.22 07:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Who is ready for Iraq-Iran War number 2? Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat desert first! |
VKhaun Vex
Viziam Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2011.10.22 09:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Astenion wrote:I personally think it's long overdue, but I commend him for sticking to his guns and following through with his pledge.
Adunh Slavy wrote:The only reason it is happening now...
Pj Harvey wrote:They'll probably need those soldiers so they can once again fumble about in the invasion of some other sovereign nation...
KaarBaak wrote:I too applaud this action.
This thread is hillarious.
A bunch of arm chair pundits who think they're talking about something with consequence by pointing out the same man said the same thing he's said several times before and then didn't do it.
It doesn't matter what mitigating circumstance you personally put under the microscope at any given time. You are not privy to his meetings or inner thoughts. If he lied then, was wrong then, or changed his mind THEN... he may very well lie, err, or reconsider again. No reason for this to be anything but bird cage liner regardless of your political position.
At least the people who assume he's lying are following a trend. You guys? Even if you're right and it happens, it's by accident. For every 'fact' you think you know there are plenty you must reasonably admit you do not when it comes to the President's knowledge and agenda vs yours.
Suddenly believing this is 'news', like 33rd time's the charm or something? Wow. There aren't enough islands left for this many Giligans. |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
26
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Posted - 2011.10.22 10:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
The Bush Administration already had set the timeline for the end of 2011 and Obama just followed through. The US wanted to stay as long as they had immunity. Iraqis said no. The US pulls out. There's no secret agenda here and nothing at all privileged. You obviously have no idea what a SOFA is or how it works. There has always been immunity in a warzone and to actually suggest that there shouldn't be is laughable at best. If a government requests troops in their country, they don't say, "Yes, we want you here but our courts supersede your military justice system." Anyone who would ever agree to that is a ******* idiot. |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
26
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Posted - 2011.10.22 10:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pj Harvey wrote:They'll probably need those soldiers so they can once again fumble about in the invasion of some other sovereign nation and get bled by insurgents bit by bit until they pull out after leaving a proxy government behind so they can then go on to yet another nation to buffoon through it and the cycle repeats until the middle east is under the control of America and Israel.
Personally I like to see Americans getting killed in the middle east, the Arabs are fighting an invader and I hope they win.
Troll fail. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
34
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Posted - 2011.10.22 12:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
VKhaun Vex wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:The only reason it is happening now... This thread is hillarious. A bunch of arm chair pundits ...
Sorry doood but Leon Penetta, Head of DOD, just last week was attempting to get the SoF extended with the Iraqis. They said no, so now thee troops are out. Maybe you should pick up a newspaper from time to time. |
Khors
El Barco Pirata
0
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Posted - 2011.10.22 13:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I don't know what's worse. The lying media sock puppets or the people who believe them.
The puppets that look at opposing media channels and believe that instead. |
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
5
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Posted - 2011.10.22 14:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Never should have gone there in the first place.
But then the rest of the world would not be aware how fun waterboarding and building human pyramids can be..... Unbanned since 2011.10.20. |
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SpaceSquirrels
Scordite Excavating Xenaphobe
9
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Posted - 2011.10.22 15:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iraq ever pay off it's war debt to the other arab nations from the Iran Iraq war? And the war with Kuwait? |
Froz3nEcho Sarain
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
115
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Posted - 2011.10.22 15:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
I really don't understand why CCP doesn't want us to discuss politics. I mean this is the right section on the forums and this isn't kindergarten anymore. Iraq is sooooo last decennia... Pakistan, Serbia and Iran is were the action is. ~ When everything fades away, an echo is the only sound that will remain ~ -á-á~ Chaos is a name for any order that produces confusion in our minds ~ |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
60
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Posted - 2011.10.22 16:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The only reason it is happening now is because the Iraqis would not extend the status of forces agreement.
The Obama administration GÇö as itGÇÖs telling you itself GÇö was willing to keep troops in Iraq after the 2011 deadline (indeed, they werenGÇÖt just willing, but eager). The only reason they arenGÇÖt is because the Iraqi Government refused to agree that U.S. soldiers would be immunized if they commit serious crimes, such as gunning down Iraqis without cause . As we know, the U.S. is not and must never be subject to the rule of law when operating on foreign soil (and its government and owners must never be subject to the rule of law in any context). |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
34
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Posted - 2011.10.22 17:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
US Gov hasn't been following the rule of law inside its own borders for years. Sure won't follow them outside. IMF has its outpost in Iraq now though, so sure they're not too upset, besides, now they own Libya too. Banner day for the bankers. |
Zyck
10
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Posted - 2011.10.22 23:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
Yes all that Libyan oil that was before going to Europe will now, thankfully, go to...Europe. |
Mohr Cowbell
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
86
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 23:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'm glad he had the balls to go ahead and do this. I think the only people benefiting from the Iraq deployment now are the defense contractors, the locals providing services to the bases, and (believe it or not) the troops who want that hazardous duty pay...
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Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
29
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Posted - 2011.10.23 08:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hazardous duty pay is nothing. It's like 150 extra bucks a month. It's the tax free pay that people don't mind. However, it still isn't enough to make people WANT to go downrange. It's not like European militaries who basically bribe their soldiers into going downrange by paying them exorbitant amounts of money, things like 30,000 euros in 6 months.
No, there is definitely no money in going downrange. You may get enough to put a down payment on a car or something, but no one's buying houses. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 08:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mohr Cowbell wrote:I'm glad he had the balls to go ahead and do this. I think the only people benefiting from the Iraq deployment now are the defense contractors, the locals providing services to the bases, and (believe it or not) the troops who want that hazardous duty pay...
He didn't "do this" the Iraqis and Bush did this. The status of forces agrement was set to expire as had been agreed to before Obama took office. Last week Leon Penetta, head of the department of defense, publicly stated that the current administration was trying to extend the SoF. Obama was trying to stay longer. |
VKhaun Vex
Viziam Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 09:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Sorry doood but Leon Penetta, Head of DOD, just last week was attempting to get the SoF extended with the Iraqis. They said no, so now thee troops are out. Maybe you should pick up a newspaper from time to time.
Because that is THE FIRST TIME EVER that anyone has put something in a newspaper to suggest the troops should come home.
I reiterate. Even if you are correct and the troops come home on this time table exactly, it is BY ACCIDENT that you are correct. Nothing new has happened. You are still not privy to all the knowledge and machinations of the president's position and there is a clear trend, no... CYCLE... of this promise being made, celebrated, slowly backed off from, and being made again. You should be ashamed of your gulibility that you will celebtrate Obama or Bush for 'doing this' two months before it's done. |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 09:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
I don't think you realize that it's not up to the President; it's up to the Iraqis. The Iraqis are forcing the troops to come home because they won't renew their immunity.
You're being gullible if you think the President still has the power to keep them there. It's not up to him; they're effectively being evicted. Do you think Obama's just going to ignore them or something? |
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VKhaun Vex
Viziam Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 09:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Astenion wrote:I don't think you realize that it's not up to the President; it's up to the Iraqis. The Iraqis are forcing the troops to come home because they won't renew their immunity.
You're being gullible if you think the President still has the power to keep them there. It's not up to him; they're effectively being evicted. Do you think Obama's just going to ignore them or something?
Do I think they will? You seem to think I'm arguing for one side or another that they will or will not com home. I make no assumptions, I'm not arguing that they are not coming home. I'm arguing against believing the news has consequence either way.
And no they won't 'ignore' if they stay. They will just... Delay. Justify. Consult. Train. Reinforce. Reorganize to different areas. Be 'on call' just over the border. Play a 'support role'. Play a 'non-combat' role. They will simply be 'staging' for 'contingencies'. Be 'in process' of returning. Be 'wrapping up ongoing operations'.
Have you no imagination?
The Iraqis also did not 'kick us out' they refused to give immunities but WANTED THE TROOPS TO STAY.
Quote:...but the Iraqis wanted additional troops to stay. We said here are the conditions, including immunities. But the Iraqis because of a variety of reasons wanted the troops and didnGÇÖt want to give immunity.
If they reconsider, next week we'll not even be within a month of your fantasy where this statement meant anything at all. We'll be discussing what he'll do next all over again waiting to throw another party when he makes another promise. |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 09:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
VKhaun Vex wrote:Astenion wrote:I don't think you realize that it's not up to the President; it's up to the Iraqis. The Iraqis are forcing the troops to come home because they won't renew their immunity.
You're being gullible if you think the President still has the power to keep them there. It's not up to him; they're effectively being evicted. Do you think Obama's just going to ignore them or something? Do I think they will? You seem to think I'm arguing for one side or another that they will or will not com home. I make no assumptions, I'm not arguing that they are not coming home. I'm arguing against believing the news has consequence either way. And no they won't 'ignore' if they stay. They will just... Delay. Justify. Consult. Train. Reinforce. Reorganize to different areas. Be 'on call' just over the border. Play a 'support role'. Play a 'non-combat' role. They will simply be 'staging' for 'contingencies'. Be 'in process' of returning. Be 'wrapping up ongoing operations'. Have you no imagination?
You make a good point, but I think you're letting your imagination run wild a bit. You need to balance it with facts and not assumptions. Let's look at it this way:
Delay: Impossible. The agreement was signed by the Iraqis and US forces to be out by the end of 2011. They tried to do just what you said by justifying, consulting, etc. However, the Iraqis were only willing to give in as long as they didn't have immunity, which is complete and utter lunacy. It's basically a nice way of the Iraqi government telling the US to GTFO because they know they'd never agree to non-immunity status.
Reorganize to different areas: Which areas? In Iraq? That of course would be impossible. Saudi Arabia? Impossible. The Saudi Prince has already evicted all US forces from Saudi Arabia years ago. Turkey? US forces have been in Turkey for decades. Kuwait? US forces have been in Kuwait for decades. It will essentially go back to post-Gulf War status from 1990 for OSW, but since you probably don't even know what that is, that's Operation Southern Watch, which was ended at the beginning of the war in 2003. Nothing strange about that.
Be on call just over the border: Again, it will go back to post-Gulf War status from 1990. This is a given. However, the troops in Iraq will simply go home and steady rotations will most probably re-commence in Turkey and Kuwait. This would only be logical.
Play a "support" role: Here's a clue: they're already playing a support role and have been for about 2 years. Next.
Play a "non combat" role: That would be considered the aforementioned "support" role. They've already stated there will be a few left behind to help train Iraqi soldiers. Did you read the article?
Staging for contingencies: What does that even mean? That's like everything you've already posted lumped into one.
Be "in process" of returning: So you think it's like promising your landlord to pay him next week because you're late with the rent? You really have no idea how any of this works.
"Wrapping up" ongoing operations: What operations? They're just sitting there right now. They've already moved outside all the cities and have let the Iraqi forces take over everything...like, A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
You need a little less imagination and a little more understanding of how this works. You've obviously never been there or you'd know how these types of operations work. |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
29
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Posted - 2011.10.23 10:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
VKhaun Vex wrote:You're right. Our country could never put troops into another country without their permission. That's silly of me.
Oh wait...
That's exactly right. Our country has never put any large contingent of troops in any country without said country's permission. If you're talking about war, then you're an idiot because the entire premise of an invasion is TO INVADE.
Do you think all the troops all over the world are there because the US just said, "Ok, we're gonna put these people here and there's nothing you can do about it!"? I certainly hope not. That's where the aforementioned SOFA comes in.
The US RENTS bases from the government and pays them billions and billions per year to keep them there. The countries are happy to have them because it's a strong boost to their economy. That's right, they RENT things. Everything from energy to fuel to jobs are paid by the US government to these countries. I'm sure you'd like to believe that they're just an evil empire that just puts its troops where it wants without permission, but that would be considered an act of war. Why do you think Pakistan is so up in arms about the special forces assassinating OBL? Even though it was a small team of people there for no more than an hour, it was still a hostile act on Pakistan's soil.
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
91
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 10:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Khors wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: I don't know what's worse. The lying media sock puppets or the people who believe them.
The puppets that look at opposing media channels and believe that instead.
tbh the worst is both sides throwing tantrums at each other like two kids fighting for that sandbox in pre-school. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Astenion
Spiritus Draconis
29
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Posted - 2011.10.23 10:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
ACK! double post |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 13:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
VKhaun Vex wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Sorry doood but Leon Penetta, Head of DOD, just last week was attempting to get the SoF extended with the Iraqis. They said no, so now thee troops are out. Maybe you should pick up a newspaper from time to time. Because that is THE FIRST TIME EVER that anyone has put something in a newspaper to suggest the troops should come home. I reiterate. Even if you are correct and the troops come home on this time table exactly, it is BY ACCIDENT that you are correct. Nothing new has happened. You are still not privy to all the knowledge and machinations of the president's position and there is a clear trend, no... CYCLE... of this promise being made, celebrated, slowly backed off from, and being made again. You should be ashamed of your gulibility that you will celebtrate Obama or Bush for 'doing this' two months before it's done.
I'm not celebarting anyone, sorry. Find someone else to blame. |
digitalwanderer
DF0 incorporated
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 02:26:00 -
[37] - Quote
Astenion wrote:VKhaun Vex wrote:You're right. Our country could never put troops into another country without their permission. That's silly of me.
Oh wait... That's exactly right. Our country has never put any large contingent of troops in any country without said country's permission. If you're talking about war, then you're an idiot because the entire premise of an invasion is TO INVADE. .
True, but to invade for the right reasons however, wich there never were any weapons of mass destruction in iraq period, then the argument for being there changed to fighting al-queda when the brunt of al-queda forces were in afghanistan and pakistan anyhow....
The invasion of iraq was a massive fuckup of epic proportions basically, and nothing but that. |
Jada Maroo
Mysterium Astrometrics BRABODEN
333
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 04:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Anyone who really believes Obama wanted them all out should be asking themselves why he tried to extend the agreement. Either way, they're not going far.
Just to Pakistan for a little while. Maybe Iran. I dunno where all Obama will go. He's got troops in Uganda now. Who the hell even knows where Uganda is on a map? |
digitalwanderer
DF0 incorporated
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 04:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jada Maroo wrote:Anyone who really believes Obama wanted them all out should be asking themselves why he tried to extend the agreement. Either way, they're not going far.
Just to Pakistan for a little while. Maybe Iran. I dunno where all Obama will go. He's got troops in Uganda now. Who the hell even knows where Uganda is on a map?
Hehe.... Can't afford it as the deficit is 1.4 trillion for 2011 and the USA will bust the debt ceiling limit agreed at the last minute about 6 months ago in congress by late 2012 / early 2013....That's right, 16 trillion dollars in debt and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
Just the interest payments on that massive debt probably takes a decent chunk of the USA's yearly federal budget and it never goes down... |
BLACK-STAR
185
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 07:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jada Maroo wrote:He's got troops in Uganda now. Who the hell even knows where Uganda is on a map? Uganda is a small country in africa that has human rights problems, particularly their recent bill criminalizing homosexuality which is life imprisonment or punishable by death.
Obama can say whatever he wants, the troops are not all going back to America, this is just meaningless talk.. like the dozen other blahblahderp excuses they make. obama is pretty fail and can't do anything as he already sold his oath to the IBC pretty much. [img]http://www.imgbox.de/users/S7AR/star.png[/img] |
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