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Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
41
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Posted - 2013.06.13 02:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Allow faction weapons (and all weapons greater than meta 5) to use T2 ammunition and be affected by the specialization skills. This would provide better modules to reach for in the offensive category, just like the defensive modules have their faction variants. |
Ridic Poison
Alpha Strategy The Unthinkables
2
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Posted - 2013.06.13 03:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
NO |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
41
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Posted - 2013.06.13 03:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Good answer. Well thought out. You could be a philosopher. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
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Posted - 2013.06.13 03:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why?
Train T2s to use T2 ammo. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
41
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Posted - 2013.06.13 03:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Why?
Train T2s to use T2 ammo.
This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little. |
Ridic Poison
Alpha Strategy The Unthinkables
2
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Posted - 2013.06.13 03:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer
you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
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Posted - 2013.06.13 03:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vassal Zeren wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Why?
Train T2s to use T2 ammo. This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little.
As it should be? According to whom?
Faction weapons are better than t2 in many circumstances when used with faction or t1 ammo. A lot of PvE nightmares for example use faction guns because they use significantly less cap. Faction launchers do more dps than t2 launchers loaded with t1 or faction ammo.
Faction guns are fine. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
41
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 04:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ridic Poison wrote:in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer
you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out.
I'm fine with that. A faction heavy missile launcher cost upward 60 mill last I checked. Just how many noobs are going to take advantage of the slightly better than T1 dps at that price tag? Faction stuff is bling. It should be useful bling. Besides, faction ballistics are better than T2 yet have the skill requirements of T1 ballistics. So why is every 10 day old character not sporting CNB? Cost of course. They cost 100 million apiece. My change just makes more faction stuff useful. Seriously. Just how many people do you see using CNML? |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
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Posted - 2013.06.13 04:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vassal Zeren wrote:Ridic Poison wrote:in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer
you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out. I'm fine with that. A faction heavy missile launcher cost upward 60 mill last I checked. Just how many noobs are going to take advantage of the slightly better than T1 dps at that price tag? Faction stuff is bling. It should be useful bling. Besides, faction ballistics are better than T2 yet have the skill requirements of T1 ballistics. So why is every 10 day old character not sporting CNB? Cost of course. They cost 100 million apiece. My change just makes more faction stuff useful. Seriously. Just how many people do you see using CNML? Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
41
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 04:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Vassal Zeren wrote:Ridic Poison wrote:in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer
you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out. I'm fine with that. A faction heavy missile launcher cost upward 60 mill last I checked. Just how many noobs are going to take advantage of the slightly better than T1 dps at that price tag? Faction stuff is bling. It should be useful bling. Besides, faction ballistics are better than T2 yet have the skill requirements of T1 ballistics. So why is every 10 day old character not sporting CNB? Cost of course. They cost 100 million apiece. My change just makes more faction stuff useful. Seriously. Just how many people do you see using CNML? Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing.
Then how do you respond to the noobs argument? Theoretically every new char should be able to use the CNB, but they don't. Price clearly has something to do with it. By the way I just checked my eft. I don't know anything about pve nightmares but as for the tengu you only get 14 extra dps from a set of faction launchers (using an rr tengu max skills and cn scourge missiles) 300 million for 14 dps is not realistic which is why I don't think these missile launchers see much use. One of the main challenges of EVE is cost effectiveness. Right now i don't think faction launchers and other weapons have a role, partially due to high cost and partially due to their being worse than T2. |
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Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
41
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 04:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Vassal Zeren wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Why?
Train T2s to use T2 ammo. This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little. As it should be? According to whom?
Me of course. On a more serious note, I was merely pointing out that there would then be a consistency between the progression of defensive faction equipment and offensive faction equipment. I just don't see faction weapons in their current state as having much of a role.
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Ridic Poison
Alpha Strategy The Unthinkables
2
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Posted - 2013.06.13 04:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
But your forgetting that you don't need any special skills to use them. and your getting 14more dps with faction launchers then t2 which take aleast one month to get the skills need to use.
As for T2 Large guns it take 2-3 months of train to get them the first time, while it take less then a month to get faction large guns. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
41
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 05:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ridic Poison wrote:But your forgetting that you don't need any special skills to use them. and your getting 14more dps with faction launchers then t2 which take aleast one month to get the skills need to use.
As for T2 Large guns it take 2-3 months of train to get them the first time, while it take less then a month to get faction large guns.
Yeah but my counter point to that was that anyone who has not yet trained up to bs sized weaponry is probably not going to have that much in the way of cash anyway. Therefore those people will not have the capacity to use the expensive faction gear. Btw we could just set it so that you need the necessary T2 skills to use the T2 ammo and get the T2 benefits in the launchers. That way the launchers can still be used as a way to save training time but they can also be used as an overall improved weapon choice. This would definitely make the faction weapons flourish.
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Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
432
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Posted - 2013.06.13 07:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing. Really? Tell that to T3 cruisers or shield boosters or most things in the game actually. The more costly an item the better it is, a lot of the time. Those item types where that isn't the case, the expensive high meta versions simply don't get used. Like the faction weapons, for example.
How many of you have actually used faction weapons? Did you really use them between getting tech I and tech II weapons? I certainly didn't and I don't know anyone in the game who did. I doubt that many people do.
Personally, I think that faction weapons should be buffed to make them competitive with Tech II but rather than allow the use of tech II ammo they should have a bonus to using the same faction's faction ammo in order to give them a little bit more dps than tech II guns and tech II ammo. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
142
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Posted - 2013.06.13 08:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing. Really? Tell that to T3 cruisers or shield boosters or most things in the game actually. The more costly an item the better it is, a lot of the time. Those item types where that isn't the case, the expensive high meta versions simply don't get used. Like the faction weapons, for example. How many of you have actually used faction weapons? Did you really use them between getting tech I and tech II weapons? I certainly didn't and I don't know anyone in the game who did. I doubt that many people do. Personally, I think that faction weapons should be buffed to make them competitive with Tech II but rather than allow the use of tech II ammo they should have a bonus to using the same faction's faction ammo in order to give them a little bit more dps than tech II guns and tech II ammo.
I use faction weapons when fitting is tight generally, but given the recent rebalancing of ships and some weapons it's become less of an issue and taken a little of the need for better fitting weaponry out of the game. Cosmos particularly fits into this category with often very comfortable fittings but poorer dps (sometimes even below the meta 3/4 items). |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
287
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Posted - 2013.06.13 08:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
When talking about cost, fitting a full rack of faction weapons is enormous. It simply doesnt scale with the rest of faction stuff and the fact that people say T2 is better than faction then what the hell is going on with faction webs and scrams and resists and hardeners?
Tiercide to ships is going well. The next step would be to fix the massive issues with the tiered modules. Modules should be "roled" like ships and not be "This is the best so use this and nothing else"( I'm looking at you rolled tungsten plates). Faction weapons fall into this mess and do need a rebalance. An easy fix would be to make specialisation skills effect all weapons/drones instead of just T2. This would give a decent buff to faction weapons and drones and also make using High meta T1 weapons appealing with the specialisation skill. T2 then retains the versatility of T2 ammo. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
293
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Posted - 2013.06.13 08:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
No.
In my opinion faction weapons need to be changed as following:
a) give them a 30% bonus to optimal range / fall off range / missile flight time. b) reduce their costs in LP store so that taking everything into account they cost no more than 3 times of the same T2 weapon.
Thats's all. This gives them a role, haveing a bit less DPS than T2 weapons, but having better range than T2 weapons with T1 ammo. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
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Posted - 2013.06.13 08:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vassal Zeren wrote:Then how do you respond to the noobs argument? Theoretically every new char should be able to use the CNB, but they don't. Price clearly has something to do with it. Lol what do noobs have to do with balancing? The power of ships aren't balanced on their accessibility to newbie players.
Vassal Zeren wrote:By the way I just checked my eft. I don't know anything about pve nightmares but as for the tengu you only get 14 extra dps from a set of faction launchers (using an rr tengu max skills and cn scourge missiles) 300 million for 14 dps is not realistic which is why I don't think these missile launchers see much use. If price determined cost-effectiveness than a lot of officer gear should be multiple times more effective than what they currently are. They're at that price because clearly enough people are willing to buy them at that price.
Vassal Zeren wrote:One of the main challenges of EVE is cost effectiveness. Right now i don't think faction launchers and other weapons have a role, partially due to high cost and partially due to their being worse than T2. If your answer to the challenge of cost-effectiveness is faction mods you're doing something wrong.
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
287
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Posted - 2013.06.13 10:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: If price determined cost-effectiveness than a lot of officer gear should be multiple times more effective than what they currently are. They're at that price because clearly enough people are willing to buy them at that price.
Wrong. Cost and effectiveness do not scale proportionately in EvE. They scale exponentially. People pay through the nose to gain very small advantages. This is as intended.
Faction weapons are expensive because of LP to ISK exchange rate. People will not trade for less than the current LP rate. People won't pay for faction weapons when T2 is very accessable and for a tiny fraction of the price. (faction drones are in a similar state.
Like I said above. Make the weapon specialisation skill effect all the weapons and not just T2. Then it will buff faction gear fairly well. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
432
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Posted - 2013.06.13 11:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Meditril wrote:No.
In my opinion faction weapons need to be changed as following:
a) give them a 30% bonus to optimal range / fall off range / missile flight time. b) reduce their costs in LP store so that taking everything into account they cost no more than 3 times of the same T2 weapon.
Thats's all. This gives them a role, haveing a bit less DPS than T2 weapons, but having better range than T2 weapons with T1 ammo.
I like this idea although the cost would need to be dropped as well. They're just too expensive for that role, currently. |
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voetius
L V B Industries STELLAR CONSTELLATION
45
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Posted - 2013.06.13 11:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
I agree with the idea of making them more useful but my approach would be different.
Rather than making them more powerful, make them cheaper.
While there are some faction mods that are always in demand, like Fed Navy Webs and CN Ballistic Controls most of the guns and launchers are rarely seen on the market because the tag / insignia cost sets a floor on the price you can sell them at and compared to T2 guns or some rare instances of COSMOS they are too expensive for what you get.
I would suggest either increasing (doubling or tripling) the drop rate of insignias in anti-faction missions and either removing the NPC buy orders (which sets a price floor) or dropping the floor down, or a combination of these.
At first sight I can see mission runners complaining that doubling the drop rate halves the value ... but then if you sell more you get the isk back that way.
If the insignias required for some faction gun were halved or more that would encourage people to start selling them on the market at e.g. half the current price but a similar isk / lp price conversion. This in turn would exert upwards pressure on insignias so the net effect could be cheaper faction guns / launchers and some modules without destroying the total value of insignia drops over time, even increasing their value.
End result:
Mission runners are no worse off if they want to sell the tags on the market Mission runners are better off if they want to convert LP to faction guns / launchers etc It's not inflationary Creates a market for faction guns etc that doesn't currently exist so potential buyers are better off |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
51
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Posted - 2013.06.13 11:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote: If price determined cost-effectiveness than a lot of officer gear should be multiple times more effective than what they currently are. They're at that price because clearly enough people are willing to buy them at that price.
Wrong. Cost and effectiveness do not scale proportionately in EvE. They scale exponentially. People pay through the nose to gain very small advantages. This is as intended. You're pretty bad at understanding sarcasm because you just repeated my point lol.
Spugg Galdon wrote:Faction weapons are expensive because of LP to ISK exchange rate. People will not trade for less than the current LP rate. People won't pay for faction weapons when T2 is very accessable and for a tiny fraction of the price. (faction drones are in a similar state. LP:ISK ratio set the limits to what people will pay on the market before they decide it's so expensive they'll just grind the LP themselves. What is on the market currently is the price that enough people will buy it at for sellers to sell it at. This is just common sense.
Spugg Galdon wrote:Like I said above. Make the weapon specialisation skill effect all the weapons and not just T2. Then it will buff faction gear fairly well. If you're making the skill apply to all weapons, you're not just buffing faction but all weapons. The net result is really just a T2 nerf. This isn't needed. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
293
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Posted - 2013.06.13 12:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:Meditril wrote:No.
In my opinion faction weapons need to be changed as following:
a) give them a 30% bonus to optimal range / fall off range / missile flight time. b) reduce their costs in LP store so that taking everything into account they cost no more than 3 times of the same T2 weapon.
Thats's all. This gives them a role, haveing a bit less DPS than T2 weapons, but having better range than T2 weapons with T1 ammo. I like this idea although the cost would need to be dropped as well. They're just too expensive for that role, currently.
You should not forget that you can build them with a BPC without any T2-Components. So in far-off low-sec or end-of-the-universe 0.0 this is a real pro, since they are much easier to produce. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1162
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Posted - 2013.06.13 13:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Faction weapons are functionally fine they just need there cost reduced to about 3~4 times of what T2 is Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Unclaimed.
159
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Posted - 2013.06.13 14:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
correct me if i am wrong, but t2 weapons give a 2% bonus per level to damage or ROF.
t1 do not get this bonus. i made this argument a couple months ago on the forums.
officer weapons should be able to use t2. they should not gain the 2% bonus for that ammo, but "should" be able to use it.
i do not think faction should. but, having faction have better range would be a good thing. faction isnt really useful and officer is just blingy.
ive had the brokara mega pulse on a nightmare and a paladin once. they did massive damage, but couldnt use the t2 ammo.
to me, if i am spending 650M for a pair of lasers, it better use all ammo. if these weapons are going to be modified and put on officer ships, they better use the best ammo available. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1449
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Posted - 2013.06.13 15:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Faction ships using same faction mods should get a "synergistic bonus"! Including faction weapons firing faction ammo!
Anyways... continue on.
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Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
42
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Posted - 2013.06.13 15:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Vassal Zeren wrote:Then how do you respond to the noobs argument? Theoretically every new char should be able to use the CNB, but they don't. Price clearly has something to do with it. Lol what do noobs have to do with balancing? The power of ships aren't balanced on their accessibility to newbie players. Vassal Zeren wrote:By the way I just checked my eft. I don't know anything about pve nightmares but as for the tengu you only get 14 extra dps from a set of faction launchers (using an rr tengu max skills and cn scourge missiles) 300 million for 14 dps is not realistic which is why I don't think these missile launchers see much use. If price determined cost-effectiveness than a lot of officer gear should be multiple times more effective than what they currently are. They're at that price because clearly enough people are willing to buy them at that price. Vassal Zeren wrote:One of the main challenges of EVE is cost effectiveness. Right now i don't think faction launchers and other weapons have a role, partially due to high cost and partially due to their being worse than T2. If your answer to the challenge of cost-effectiveness is faction mods you're doing something wrong.
Ok I think you are not understand my points so I will rephrase them because you have a cool bio.
1) The newbie point is obviously not to say that we should make everything accessible to newbies. Just the opposite. I was pointing out (and I still am) that the idea that cost does not balance things is wrong, because in the case of a newbie the only thing thats stopping him from fitting a faction module is cost. Do see my point? He can use the module so skillpoints do not factor into the balancing in this case, merely cost. Therefore cost plays a factor in balancing, thats all I'm saying.
2) This should be obvious but I guess it isn't. BY ITS VERY NATURE price determines cost effectiveness. That is what cost effectiveness IS. How expensive is something vs how useful it is. This is perfectly related to my point which is that there is not a significant benefit (and indeed in many cases there is an uncompensated drawback) for using faction weaponry. Perhaps you thought when I said cost effectiveness I meant cheap. That would be incorrect. I am talking about the principle of cost vs use. This principle is proven when you see tons of tengus with CNB. There is a use for the CNB to compensate for the cost. There is not for faction launchers, in general. |
Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
33
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
Allowing Faction weapons to use T2 ammo? No. Just no. It's been explained pretty well why that is not a good idea.
Allowing Faction weapons to gain from the weapon Specialization skills? Maybe. At least it makes more sense than the T2 ammo suggestion.
Allowing Officer weapons to use T2 ammo? Possibly. I'd be more interested to see a bigger variety of Officer or Deadspace weapons, personally.
Making Faction weapons cheaper? That's due to the market, YOU go tell the market how to behave. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
42
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zaknussem wrote: Making Faction weapons cheaper? That's due to the market, YOU go tell the market how to behave.
You don't understand, yet you are sarcastic. Know more before being a smart alec. The prices of all faction things are directly a result of the amount of LP and tags need to be exchanged for them. Lower that amount and you guarantee a lower price. Your other declarations go out the window if you don't even understand that, which is funny considering other people have already posted how this work in the comments. |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
26
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
Faction guns are fine the way they are at being basically on par with T2 guns, but restricted to T1 ammo. Officer guns should be able to use T2 ammo however. The way I see it, faction guns are modified versions of T1 guns while officer guns are modified versions of T2 guns. |
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