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Mimio
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:31:00 -
[31]
Bad idea. Flagging : - helps to macrousers. - do not solve problem with mid-high level thief. Simple tactic - pickup, warp and dock or warp to safespot. Unload and wait. Trained thief will even pickup cargo on the fly, aligning to their dock and warp out almost immediately. - Any secure contaigners will be useless. - Anchoring skill? - Big cargo slot, cargo extenders, indy's? Forget about it. Now we have UNLIMITED PRIVATE cargo hold for everybody.
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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Does the victim get any notification about his ore being stolen?
Yeah, when he returns to the belt with his hauler. A) If the thief is still there they show up as a blinking red target. B) If they try to open the can they get the warning listed above, and they'll know they've been had.
Quote:
I'm not sure the thief should be able to respond after stealing the ore...but I can see some reasons for it. Now an ore thief just needs a BS with his hauler, in a gang. BS waiting to warp...etc, etc.
I hope this is just a work in progress.
Yes, a huge 'work in progress'. How about the BS sitting at a gate popping gate rats, and nuubs who wander along and check out the cans? Or in a similar vein dropping a can right at the gate, but far enough away so that the 'thief' cannot jump before getting pounded on?
This has its definate up-side, but also has some very exploitable loopholes.
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Bagdh Dearg
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:41:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Pagefault Looks like all that thieves must look for a new profession. Looks like "robber" is a viable choice :))
I think "Mugger" is a more effective description _______________________________________________ An tÚ nach bhfuil lßidir nÝ folßir d¾ bheith glic -He who is not strong must be crafty |
Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2005.11.15 14:13:00 -
[34]
I hear a lot of whining and concerned issues. Wich are mostly valid. But in conclusion, the new system IS better than the old. Thats the only thing we should really focus on. Getting it perfect won't happen, as perfect for me isn't perfect for you.
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Sarke
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Posted - 2005.11.15 14:28:00 -
[35]
Sidestepping the whole "who's being screwed" issue, I think there should be a free-for-all period on cans starting say 15 minutes before the can is to explode. This way a passer by may "save" the ore for themselves (or sell it back to the original owner) since the ore would have been destroyed otherwise.
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.11.15 14:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mimio Bad idea. Flagging : - helps to macrousers.
how does it help macrominers?
move all their ore into a new can, wait for the macroing hauler to pick up the new can, kill them.
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Joshua Izblind
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Posted - 2005.11.15 14:51:00 -
[37]
ROFLOL!!11!!!!
So if i clean someone's canner, they can shoot me and my gang/corp? Omg, thats gonna be awsome if your in NPC corp! 1337.0.00.o targets flagged 4tw.
I'm prob wrong though.... -----------------------------------------------
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.15 14:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Mimio Bad idea. Flagging : - helps to macrousers.
Because the macro is really going to beat you in a fight
Originally by: Mimio - do not solve problem with mid-high level thief. Simple tactic - pickup, warp and dock or warp to safespot. Unload and wait. Trained thief will even pickup cargo on the fly, aligning to their dock and warp out almost immediately.
This is not about making ore thieving impossible, simply giving the victim the same chance to fight back that they would have in any other criminal situation.
Originally by: Mimio - Any secure contaigners will be useless.
No, they'll still be as useful as ever. A secure container means the thief can't take your stuff at all. You have to be present with some amount of firepower for the flagging to provide any sort of security to your unsecured containers. You're also unlikely to get your stuff back even if you do kill the thief.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.15 14:55:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Joshua Izblind ROFLOL!!11!!!!
So if i clean someone's canner, they can shoot me and my gang/corp? Omg, thats gonna be awsome if your in NPC corp! 1337.0.00.o targets flagged 4tw.
I'm prob wrong though....
NPC corps have always had special conditions on this sort of thing, specifically to stop that issue.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Kalik Montclair
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:10:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Kalik Montclair on 15/11/2005 15:11:11 OK, Q on the way this works...... A) Thief takes ore B) Miner, his corp and his gang have the option to fire on thief C) If fired upon, thief may return fire without concord attacking
My Questions are, when the thief is fired upon is he allowed to fire back at there corp/gang also or just the one(s) who fire at him? Do those in gang with the thief have the same 'clearance' to fire upon those same pilots as the thief does?
Originally by: Jane Vladmir 90% of eve want them to be overpowered; 90% of eve doesn't want to have to take chances. First fix the players, then you can fix the modules.
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Augustus Fudd
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:24:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Augustus Fudd on 15/11/2005 15:25:19 Soooo many posts on this subject
without speculation is there a definative post/GM/dev blog or anything that actually lays out the law on this matter so people can start to think about what they will do when the patch comes?
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Mimio
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Mimio Bad idea. Flagging : - helps to macrousers.
how does it help macrominers?
move all their ore into a new can, wait for the macroing hauler to pick up the new can, kill them.
Macrominer are only people really hate ore thief. Only macrominer works without real control over accounts. Ask chineese farmer(s) working in high sec area. How they works, how they are payed, etc? Very-very informative. Because you knows nothing. Hauler always controlled by farmer. Miners are not. Miners jettison ore into space FULLY automatically.
And in upcoming patch farmers/macros ore will be guarded by BS. As in Lineage where groups of farmers were been protected by high level PKillers.
Good team with good cooperation and huge secure cont does ignore ore thiefing.
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Mimio
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:49:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Matthew
Because the macro is really going to beat you in a fight
Remember I do not use macroses so I do not afraid ORE thief.
Quote:
This is not about making ore thieving impossible, simply giving the victim the same chance to fight back that they would have in any other criminal situation.
Explain me how ore thief may pickup our ORE if we have two barges, one hauler and huge sec cont? Controlled manually. Just explain. I am very interested.
Quote: No, they'll still be as useful as ever.
LOL.
Quote: A secure container means the thief can't take your stuff at all.
Who care about such protection? If good ship will protect you much better and with much more fun? And for what hell we need flagging if "A secure container means the thief can't take your stuff at all"(c) Matthew
Oh, no. I forget. We have to protect macrousers!
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:10:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Tobiaz on 15/11/2005 16:13:01
Personally I don't think RMR will make any difference to macromining.
Even the fake bait can won't allow orethieves to shoot on the macrominers, since there is a pop-up protecting the hauler from taking the wrong can.
I think macrominers will just continue like there has never been a RMR patch. They'll simply go to a system with not too much population and when they are spotted by a orethief they'll simply pack up and mine somewhere else. Just like always.
And CCP is just blind for not banning even the most obvious macrominers just because there is a guy looking after a dozen accounts all ran by a macro.
I've reported literally dozens of them and many of them are still here doing their thing like always.
CCP should use numbers like daily time online to track down suspiscous people. Very few players manage to clock playtimes like those mining automatons.
/puts on tinfoil hat
But perhaps CCP doesn't really want to ban all those macrominers that quickly. They must control hundreds of accounts, and except for the daily shouting on the forums, the effects seem to go unnoticed. EVE's economy is still not in a big recession or something and the subscription numbers are still rising.
One last thing. Most people here totally underestimate the persistance and ingenuity of the people behind macrominer accounts.
The only way they can be stopped is by fundamentally changing the way people are mining, so it requires constant human attention to keep it going.
It may sound stupid, but how about they turn mining into some minigame like activity that does the calibration of the mining lasers, increasing yield the longer you can keep it going.
I don't think there excist macros that can run something like tetris, while it can keep miners a bit entertained.
Who put those rats in the fridge?! |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:22:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Matthew on 15/11/2005 16:22:30
Originally by: Mimio
Originally by: Matthew
Because the macro is really going to beat you in a fight
Remember I do not use macroses so I do not afraid ORE thief.
Jet can mining is not limited to macroers.
Originally by: Mimio Explain me how ore thief may pickup our ORE if we have two barges, one hauler and huge sec cont? Controlled manually. Just explain. I am very interested.
They can't. But not everyone has 3 players avaliable to be able to mine that way, and it is not the most efficient way to mine in many circumstances anyway.
Originally by: Mimio Who care about such protection? If good ship will protect you much better and with much more fun? And for what hell we need flagging if "A secure container means the thief can't take your stuff at all"(c) Matthew
Oh, no. I forget. We have to protect macrousers!
Because not everyone wants to have to mine with the restrictions of secure containers. Also, in many belts there is no longer any room to anchor new secure containers. And an unanchored secure container leaves you open for the entire container to be stolen, not just it's contents.
There is more than one way to play Eve - open your mind.
Besides, it is entirely possible for macros to run the sort of secure-container based op you describe anyway. This change has nothing to do with macroers, and everything to do with giving miners the same chance against an ore thief that they would have against any other type of criminal.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:24:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Tobiaz on 15/11/2005 16:23:56
Originally by: Mimio Ask chineese farmer(s) working in high sec area. How they works, how they are payed, etc? Very-very informative. Because you knows nothing. Hauler always controlled by farmer. Miners are not. Miners jettison ore into space FULLY automatically.
And in upcoming patch farmers/macros ore will be guarded by BS. As in Lineage where groups of farmers were been protected by high level PKillers.
Asking one of those 'chinese farmers' really isn't that informative since I don't speak Chinese, and they hardly any English. Besides, the only time I got one to talk was by chasing them a whole ******* week with alt spies and locator agents, constantly stealing their ore or simply hanging in the same belt stopping them from jetting their ore.
In extremely broken English that guy explained me I was dishonourable for making his work impossible. He asked me how I felt that I was making it impossible for him to earn money to buy food for himself and his family. While in all our westernized eyes earning your living by exploiting a game which is meant for fun, is totally wrong. But then again, I'm living in a comfy 'civilized' European country (the one where you legally can get high).
It is this difference in culture that would explain their persistance. It is this difference why I think CCP is making a mistake putting up a server in China.
As for the macrominers PvP guards...
I seriously doubt they will start using them. RMR will in no way change the status quo. They have the option to shoot, which they won't use since relocating is more effective anyway.
Besides, in EVE just having a high level and expensive equipment doesn't make you automatically a good fighter. These guys are probably even worse at PvP then your average carebear.
Who put those rats in the fridge?! |
John BigBootay
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:42:00 -
[47]
I think you guys are forgetting (or I didn't see it mentioned) that this will help with people doing missions\complexes because the loot cans are automatically assigned to you. Since you are already set up for combat, taking out a loot theif will be a lot easier :) While the mining purposes are still debatable, the high end loot will definitly be saveable.
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:45:00 -
[48]
Originally by: John BigBootay I think you guys are forgetting (or I didn't see it mentioned) that this will help with people doing missions\complexes because the loot cans are automatically assigned to you. Since you are already set up for combat, taking out a loot theif will be a lot easier :) While the mining purposes are still debatable, the high end loot will definitly be saveable.
On a sidenote, it will even be easier to do missions with someone not in your corp
Friendly fire has always been a very problematic issue since they changed the gang system.
Who put those rats in the fridge?! |
Macro Media
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:08:00 -
[49]
Yes, Do this. Do whatever it takes to make can stealing as difficult as possible.
This is why I am releasing my Advanced Ore Theft guide
To encorage theives to steal more ore, and to steal it better!
------- Advanced Theft Guides |
Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sirial Soulfly All the miner's in barges will be happy with ths iam sure
Looks to me the the ore stealing griefers just have gotten a pat on the back from CCP.
All they have to do now is roll out the gank ships, and go on a carebear killing rampage throughout empire without any repercussions.
Mine with friends... my friends are already trying to figure out what kind of firepower we'll need in order to keep this from happening.
The plus sides of all this are... even if you fill your cargo in a BS... you don't take near as much as an indy would... and if you steal in an indy you can easily be shot down...
The system kind of balances itself out. Plus it encourages more MMOing. You can still steal from people in whatever ship you choose to, and mine in the same. You just need to have somebody there with big guns to resolve the situation.
And, as stated before by somebody... I think it was the OP
1) Theif must be fired upon before he can fire without CONCORD intervention.
2) YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOOT AT HIM/HER!! If you're only in a mining barge and he's in... anything besides an indy or another barge... don't be stupid. Your strip miners will replenish the ore he stole and then some, the next cycle.
All CCP is doing is making it so we CAN do something about it. We don't have to and sometimes we won't be able to, but we now have the option to do something without getting WTFPWNED by CONCORD.
************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sarke Sidestepping the whole "who's being screwed" issue, I think there should be a free-for-all period on cans starting say 15 minutes before the can is to explode. This way a passer by may "save" the ore for themselves (or sell it back to the original owner) since the ore would have been destroyed otherwise.
That's a good idea... maybe time flag the jet/drop can and after that time the can is open to the first comer... sounds like a good idea to me.
************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Knerf
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:17:00 -
[52]
i see a new profession for merc corps, protect a mining op in exchange for isk/ore, you gang the with the miners, sit there in you combat ship, any ore thief comes they get ganked, kinda makes for more co-op play and new avenues for people to explore in the game, and hopefully it flags if you take from an NPC can too so all the alts that hang around gates waiting for the blockade missions so they can collect loot will simply be blown apart by said mission runners.
seems to be a good idea to me.
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Macro Media
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:38:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Knerf i see a new profession for merc corps, protect a mining op in exchange for isk/ore, you gang the with the miners, sit there in you combat ship, any ore thief comes they get ganked, kinda makes for more co-op play and new avenues for people to explore in the game, and hopefully it flags if you take from an NPC can too so all the alts that hang around gates waiting for the blockade missions so they can collect loot will simply be blown apart by said mission runners.
seems to be a good idea to me.
All it does is encorage ore theives to join your corp and steal from you.
------- Advanced Theft Guides |
Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Macro Media
Originally by: Knerf i see a new profession for merc corps, protect a mining op in exchange for isk/ore, you gang the with the miners, sit there in you combat ship, any ore thief comes they get ganked, kinda makes for more co-op play and new avenues for people to explore in the game, and hopefully it flags if you take from an NPC can too so all the alts that hang around gates waiting for the blockade missions so they can collect loot will simply be blown apart by said mission runners.
seems to be a good idea to me.
All it does is encorage ore theives to join your corp and steal from you.
No, the millions of ISK worth of items in the corp hangar is what encourages a corp thief.
If you don't trust the guy/gal... don't invite them to the group or corp. Intelligence and common sense are your biggest guns!
************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Knerf
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Macro Media
Originally by: Knerf i see a new profession for merc corps, protect a mining op in exchange for isk/ore, you gang the with the miners, sit there in you combat ship, any ore thief comes they get ganked, kinda makes for more co-op play and new avenues for people to explore in the game, and hopefully it flags if you take from an NPC can too so all the alts that hang around gates waiting for the blockade missions so they can collect loot will simply be blown apart by said mission runners.
seems to be a good idea to me.
All it does is encorage ore theives to join your corp and steal from you.
wow, that is a dumb response, how is that even remotley close to what i said because if they join your corp they can shoot you or you can shoot them anyway....
please make your post a bit more in depth if you had something to add to my comment
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:12:00 -
[56]
you guys are thinking too hard... in order to steal ore all you need is to follow these simple steps
1. noob alt in an ibis 2. a hauler 2a. (for added security/fun have a player with a gank BS in gang) 3. gang alt hauler acct/ BS acct 4. have ibis alt transfer the miners ore into a can of his own. 5a. if the miner moves the ore back to his can ... he is now flagged to the whole gang. Warp in the BS and toast him 5b. else have the hauler start taking ore unflagged. 6. profit!
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Mathir
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:31:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Mathir on 15/11/2005 18:33:14 Fun with Newbie corps:
*) Ore thieves from non-n00b will have a lot of fun in Ammold (or wherever) when a zillion Reapers converge on 'em when they take out a poor noobs orecan and the call goes out over RMS Corp chat "Ore thief at Belt II!"
*) Ore thieves will just join the n00b corp and then will be able to freely take n00b ore. This change will help with miners in player corps a lot more I think ...
I guess it depends where you think the problem is: if it's noob vs. noob, they still won't be able to retaliate. Maybe that's ok tho.
I also wonder when the "in gang" check occurs - will I be able to help out someone by ganging with them >>after<< the ore steal?
Corporate on my uniform, Freelancer in my heart Fly Free, Live Free |
Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:39:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hex Stiletto I You are about to steal items from <Name>. If you continue, you will be criminal flagged to the owner of the container, their gang and their corporation. Are you sure you want to continue?
Umm, if the miner shoot back, is he agressed to the tief's gang or corp?
Cause i whuld just LOVE the idea of gankkfleet waiting to gankk whole roidfield sensless
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