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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14832
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Posted - 2013.06.14 20:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:you don't get it, I want to paly everything not just parts of the game! SoGǪ just go ahead and do it. Nothing is stopping you.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14842
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Posted - 2013.06.15 13:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:I mentioned that I did not make wrong choices, actually the mechanics hold me back from playing the game like intended No. The only thing holding your back is your choices. If you aren't happy with the results, then they were obviously the wrong choices. This is entirely as intended.
GǪoh, and you can already buy faction standing for tags. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14844
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Posted - 2013.06.15 17:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:I put you on ignore now, read through your first comment and you sure will understand why Yes: you have no way of addressing his very valid points, especially the one showing that your problem doesn't even really existGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14846
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Posted - 2013.06.15 18:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:Tippia, as you might know, your on my ignore list since day one GǪand that is your problem. You wilfully ignore valuable information and create problems for yourself that simply don't exist (or at least wouldn't if you instead chose to stay informed).
No matter how much you want to ignore it, the simple fact remains: your problem doesn't exist. Your solution already exists. You have just (wrongly) chosen to not make use of what's been given to you. The only way to fix that is for you to become receptive. This is a problem with you, and not with the game GÇö nothing can (or should) be done to the game to fix you.
Quote:there are people who can learn a book and repeat it line by line without a mistake, but still not understanding a single word GǪbut unfortunately, you don't qualify for this exalted position. Instead, you fail to read to begin with, and then complain about not understanding while making every mistake in the book. It all could be so easily avoided if you chose to learn instead of ignorantly opine on things you know nothing about. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14848
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Posted - 2013.06.15 19:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:in my opinion tags4faction would be a good idea So why aren't you making use of it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14854
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:All that also completely ignores the fact that it is entirely possible to ruin your standings permanently. Not any more. These days, it's always possible to dig yourself out of any kind of standings hole you've chosen to jump down into.
Quote:Keeping people from playing with their friends because of wallets or RP is bad game design. Neither of those keep people from playing with their friends. Only their (and their friends') decisions do that. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14854
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Last time I checked, there's only tags4sec at the moment. Did I miss anything? Data centres have been around since roughly forever and are where the idea for tags-for-sec comes from. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14855
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:...and everyone knows you can only do that once. GǪwhich is plenty to get you out of trouble with the local faction so you can go pursue some new career.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14855
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:LOL. This is merely semantics and you know it. No, it's mechanics. The OP claims that game mechanics make things impossible for him, when they in fact do the opposite.
Iit's only his insistence on not learning the mechanics in question and blocking out everyone offering him advice that keeps him from doing anything. He made his choice and now thinks that his decisions are flaws in the game mechanics. He could solve his problem if he wanted to, but chooses not to or doesn't know how to, and instead chooses to ignore all avenues available.
GǪhe even refuses to admit that these are all pretty bad choices.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14855
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:OP does not sound like he's trying to change his career. Then he needs to accept the intended design of that career choice: he picks a side. The other side will not like him. It is as it should be.
GǪand it still doesn't mean he's not allowed to play with his friends or forced to do anything. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14856
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:I know. I'm just saying that suggesting he use tags for faction doesn't help him, he's not trying to change his career. This piece of advice you offer is much more relevant. Well, sure. The problem is that he's going on as if the mechanic doesn't exist at all, which rather suggests not being familiar with the game mechanics GÇö a problem that's further deepened by his apparent fondness for blocking people who are trying to explain things to him.
The other problem is his choice of activity (which he refuses to accept as a bad one, in spite of it apparently causing effects he's not fond of) GÇö a problem that is not actually what he thinks it is since if he was simply running missions, the standings loss is entirely avoidable (again, a result of bad choices), and if it's a matter of doing FW, the standings loss is irrelevant since he could have +10 across the board and still be hunted for being an enemy of the stateGǪ
Either way, it's a matter of wilful ignorance far more than of bad game mechanics. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14861
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Posted - 2013.06.15 22:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:The same could be said about sec standing. Many players, and CCP evidently, thought it was a bad mechanic. Actually, no, the same thing was never said about sec status. It being a punishment for GÇ£badGÇ¥ behaviour was always fully accepted. It was also never really seen as a bad choice.
I suppose what you're really referring to is the recover mechanic. The difference there is that sec status recover hasn't actually changed: it's still a lot of grinding that needs to be done. It has just been decoupled in time and space (and agency). Faction standing has had a quick out for yonks. Another difference is that grinding sec status back always was (and still is) much easier than faction standing GÇö the latter being more of a long-term decision consequence GÇö which would explain why the quick out was needed, but only available as a one shot.
The principle applies. It applies so hard that it existed long before it was transferred to sec status. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:but thats the point it does not make sense to play level 1 missions for hours if you have a high trained character, people don't want that, they want a different way to fix the standings, maybe a challanging way but not boring level 1 missions for hours Who are you to say what people want?
As a GÇ£high trained characterGÇ¥, blitzing those missions is ridiculously quick and easy, and can actually be a fun diversion GÇö you're back in small and nimble ships rather than the lumbering beasts that got you in trouble in the first place.
Moreover, as an older character, you will have had to time to learn that this is the price you pay for burning your bridges with one of the empire factions.
Quote:the plan just shows that the faction standing mechanic has issues for a lot of players Eh, no. It shows that there is no issue since it's such an easy hole to dig yourself out of. So far, you haven't put up much in the way of a convincing argument for why it needs to be adjusted other than GÇ£I don't want to do itGÇ¥. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:i want to do half a year faction warfare and then do other stuff, and not have to do boring level 1 missions to repair things GǪand as luck would have it, you don't have to.
Beyond that, the intended way to play the game is to live with the consequences of your actions. If you keep messing up your standings, you either have to live with being hunted in parts of space or live with having to grind them up again. Or just choose not to mess them up.
Decision GåÆ Consequence. Don't like the consequence? Make a difference decision.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:you don't understand that i want to play all parts of the game intensively and not just one profession, the game needs to adjust to that No, it really doesn't, largely because it already allows you to do exactly what you want. You just don't want to play by the rules of the game.
If you want to do something, just go and do it. The game isn't stopping you GÇö you are. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:I'm not raging, I just say that mechanic is outdated and needs to be adjusted GǪwithout giving a good explanation of how they're outdated or a reason why they should change, other than GÇ£but I don't wanna!GÇ¥ GÇö i.e. raging. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 00:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Honest question: How is this fundamentally different than tags4sec...or are you against that too? The difference is that security is supposed to be fairly easy to both lose and regain; faction standings are supposed to be slow and hard to lose and gain. One is short-term; the other is picking a side (almost for life).
There's a reason why the tag-for-faction-standing option is a limited offer, and nothing has really been presented to demonstrate why this desperately needs to changeGǪ
Also, tags-for-sec doesn't actually change how sec status is being repaired GÇö it's still a whole bunch of grinding GÇö whereas the OP wants to skip the parts he doesn't like and take an easy option (no matter how much he claims the opposite, because it's not a matter of difficulty but of resistance). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
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Posted - 2013.06.16 00:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:That's a great normative claim and I assume that you can point me to a CCP post saying this? I can point to a long history of mechanics that show this to be the case.
Quote:Even if the (currently) controversial normative premise in your argument is accepted it does not negate the fact that someone has to do the grinding.... time/energy requirements do not change. Actually, if we look at tags-for-sec, they do change: it takes a fair bit more grinding for the tags than if you were just going for the sec level. If the OP got his wish, a direct translation would entail doing even more L1 missions. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
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Posted - 2013.06.16 00:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:One is about pvp. One is about pve. One is about player interaction. One is about interaction with NPCs. How is it that they are fundamentally the same? OooohGǪ
The punishment for PvPing your way into low sec status is to have to do a lot of horrible PvE. So maybe the punishment for PvEing your way into low faction standing should be to have to do a lot of horrible PvP.
GǪit fits the OP's requirement of being a challenging, not-L1 way of getting his standings back after all. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14868
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Posted - 2013.06.16 01:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Darn. I was actually hoping that CCP said this and we would not have to rely upon the naturalistic fallacy or argument from tradition fallacy. It's more a case of GÇ£I can't see anyone making a good case for changing the designGÇ¥. Why should gaining faction standing be made any easier than it already is?
Quote:I am looking for principled differences between the two and, so far, I have not seen one. Well, there is the general design principle that one is easy to lose and regain and the other is not. One is deliberately designed to be easy to go between, whereas the other is designed around much stronger sense of permanence. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14876
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Posted - 2013.06.16 12:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Darius Brannock wrote:Maybe instead of looking for ways to humiliate the OP or discredit him, we could discuss how such a mechanic could be made interesting and create more content? Maybe instead of the OP ignoring advice and blocking people who disagree with him, he can explain how the existing solutions are inadequate (and no GÇ£I don't wannaGÇ¥ does not make something inadequate) and how making it easier to escape the consequences of one's choices will in any way be better for the game.
Oggat wrote:He had a valid debate. The fact that he put it in GD and got trolled in to the ground is just par for EVE forum. Not really, no. The problem is that he doesn't want to discuss the topic and sees anyone suggesting that maybe he's going about it all wrong as a personal insult. His choice not to engage in actual debate invalidates any debate that there might have been. He wants agreement, not a debate.
The fact that he tried to post an GÇ£agree with me or I'll stomp my feet and poutGÇ¥-thread in General Discussion is what makes people point out that he's a troll, nothing else. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14876
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Posted - 2013.06.16 13:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:If discouraging players from interacting is not a good case...well then there is no discussion. It would be a good case. It's just that it's not what's going on here. The game mechanics do nothing of the sort. If anything, they encourage interaction because one of the solutions available to the OP's problem is to rely on other people for certain services.
Quote:If tags4standing inherently makes gaining faction standing easier then tags4sec has also been made easier. No. You're forgetting the underlying activity that generates the (supposed) needs for the two. Tags-for-sec doesn't make sec grinding easier because you still have to grind to make use of it: either you grind rats for tags or you grind ISK for tags. When you start your trip back to Sec -2, you have neither because you've blown up people, which yields neither tags nor ISK.
With tags-for-standing, you don't have to grind to make use of it: either you grind rats for tags (which you probably already picked up as part of the NPC killing that gave you the bad sec standing) or you grind ISK to buy tags (ISK you definitely already earned as part of killing NPCs). The grind that you're supposed to do to get back to neutral standings has already happened as part of the activity that led you to negative standings GÇö it is skipped. The process is made hellalot easier.
Again, the GÇ£punishmentGÇ¥ for PvP is enforced PvE. Tags-for-sec does not change this. To make the same thing work with standings, you'd have to reverse it, or it's simply a mechanic to outright skip that punishment. So the GÇ£punishmentGÇ¥ for PvE would have to be enforced PvP GÇö not tags or ISK or anything else you could pick up in the process of the PvE itself. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14877
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Posted - 2013.06.16 14:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:you did not even take the time to read through the thread in detail, its not about making things easy, its the opposite, the level 1 mission grinding is boring to bring up standings, thats why we want another mechanic which is more challanging You're confusing GÇ£easyGÇ¥ with GÇ£simpleGÇ¥. You can deny it as much as you like, but the simply fact remains: you do want to make it easier; you do want to remove the resistance you've come up against; you do want to skip the penalties for the bad choices you've made.
Quote:you just repeat what others say, nothing new, just standart ignorance without even looking at what was said In other words, you have no idea what he just said. You just keep repeating the same lies over and over again. Why are you so afraid of discussing the topic? Why are you so unable to provide any kind of argument for change? Do you even have any? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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