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Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:43:00 -
[91] - Quote
It works just fine how it is now. If you want to participate in factional warfare or take missions where you shoot up other factions' navies, that is you choice and it has consequences.
You are taking missions where you shoot other navies and then wondering why the standings go down so fast? They're going down that fast because that is what was intended. If you want to trade in the Caldari quadrant, don't shoot Caldari ships. If you want to trade in the Gallente quadrant, don't shoot Gallente ships. If you want to trade in all the quadrants, don't take missions where you shoot navy ships. Only pirate faction missions (Gurista, Serpentis, etc.) |
Zircon Dasher
234
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:43:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tippia wrote: GǪoh, and you can already buy faction standing for tags.
Once.
After that you are required to grind for days. That is fine if you exhibit "bot aspirant" (I think this is the new fangled term?) behavior or are ok with doing noob missions while your friends are off in some other region having fun. Not everyone thinks that inhibiting the ability to play with friends is a good thing.
All that also completely ignores the fact that it is entirely possible to ruin your standings permanently. lol Imagine if you could only recover from -5 sec standing ONCE.
Keeping people from playing with their friends because of wallets or RP is bad game design. CCP realized this a long time ago when they introduced the current standing mechanics 5(?) years ago. People are more mobile than ever and CCP should keep up with player trends. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
The Chronophage
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:47:00 -
[93] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:" as the character skill training is so timeconsuming I prefer just playing with my main, therefore I would prefer a better way to repair damaged faction standings"
You mean this detail? I too would like CCP to give me lots of free isk. That would save me a lot of time.
The game is designed to punish aggression against the enemy faction while rewarding you with LP from your faction. If you want to shoot people without losses in faction standing, you should be in non-fw lowsec, nullsec or wh space. Hell, you can still shoot militia members in lowsec while being OUTSIDE fw. Like in the old days where fw was really pvp instead being full of carebear LP farmers.
From your detailed whine, it is clear you just want to farm faction tags from missions and/or LP from FW whilst being too lazy to skill up a trading alt. Skip those empire faction missions, stay out of FW, and you'll have no standing problems in highsec. Unless you're dumb enough to get caught smuggling contrabands. |
Zircon Dasher
234
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:50:00 -
[94] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:It works just fine how it is now. If you want to participate in factional warfare or take missions where you shoot up other factions' navies, that is you choice and it has consequences.
You are taking missions where you shoot other navies and then wondering why the standings go down so fast? They're going down that fast because that is what was intended. If you want to trade in the Caldari quadrant, don't shoot Caldari ships. If you want to trade in the Gallente quadrant, don't shoot Gallente ships. If you want to trade in all the quadrants, don't take missions where you shoot navy ships. Only pirate faction missions (Gurista, Serpentis, etc.)
What about folks who ruined thier standings a long time ago? Should they be forced to roll an alt or not be allowed to play with their friends because they did something to an NPC corp? Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14854
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:50:00 -
[95] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:All that also completely ignores the fact that it is entirely possible to ruin your standings permanently. Not any more. These days, it's always possible to dig yourself out of any kind of standings hole you've chosen to jump down into.
Quote:Keeping people from playing with their friends because of wallets or RP is bad game design. Neither of those keep people from playing with their friends. Only their (and their friends') decisions do that. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
479
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:52:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Harry Forever wrote:in my opinion tags4faction would be a good idea So why aren't you making use of it? Last time I checked, there's only tags4sec at the moment. Did I miss anything? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14854
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:55:00 -
[97] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Last time I checked, there's only tags4sec at the moment. Did I miss anything? Data centres have been around since roughly forever and are where the idea for tags-for-sec comes from. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:59:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Last time I checked, there's only tags4sec at the moment. Did I miss anything? Data centres have been around since roughly forever and are where the idea for tags-for-sec comes from.
...and everyone knows you can only do that once. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14855
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:01:00 -
[99] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:...and everyone knows you can only do that once. GǪwhich is plenty to get you out of trouble with the local faction so you can go pursue some new career.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Zircon Dasher
234
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:10:00 -
[100] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Not any more. These days, it's always possible to dig yourself out of any kind of standings hole you've chosen to jump down into.
My bad. For some reason I thought even the level 1 mission agents would not talk to you at some point.
Realistically though there is not much of a change. Effectively you boned unless you are a bot who has the desire to play lvl 1 mission online for the next 300 hours. Terrible mechanic is terrible.
Quote:Keeping people from playing with their friends because of wallets or RP is bad game design. Neither of those keep people from playing with their friends. Only their (and their friends') decisions do that.[/quote]
LOL. This is merely semantics and you know it. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
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Zircon Dasher
234
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:12:00 -
[101] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:...and everyone knows you can only do that once. GǪwhich is plenty to get you out of trouble with the local faction so you can go pursue some new career.
Assuming that you did not use it years ago. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14855
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 21:15:00 -
[102] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:LOL. This is merely semantics and you know it. No, it's mechanics. The OP claims that game mechanics make things impossible for him, when they in fact do the opposite.
Iit's only his insistence on not learning the mechanics in question and blocking out everyone offering him advice that keeps him from doing anything. He made his choice and now thinks that his decisions are flaws in the game mechanics. He could solve his problem if he wanted to, but chooses not to or doesn't know how to, and instead chooses to ignore all avenues available.
GǪhe even refuses to admit that these are all pretty bad choices.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:18:00 -
[103] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:...and everyone knows you can only do that once. GǪwhich is plenty to get you out of trouble with the local faction so you can go pursue some new career. ...OP does not sound like he's trying to change his career. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14855
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:25:00 -
[104] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:OP does not sound like he's trying to change his career. Then he needs to accept the intended design of that career choice: he picks a side. The other side will not like him. It is as it should be.
GǪand it still doesn't mean he's not allowed to play with his friends or forced to do anything. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 21:30:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:OP does not sound like he's trying to change his career. Then he needs to accept the intended design of that career choice: he picks a side. The other side will not like him. It is as it should be. GǪand it still doesn't mean he's not allowed to play with his friends or forced to do anything.
I know. I'm just saying that suggesting he use tags for faction doesn't help him, he's not trying to change his career. This piece of advice you offer is much more relevant. |
Kult Altol
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
417
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 21:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
I woulden't mind a more expedient way to repair faction. When I first started playing I shot up everything, and now two of my standings are terrible. An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. A narrow mind is a focused mind.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14856
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 21:36:00 -
[107] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:I know. I'm just saying that suggesting he use tags for faction doesn't help him, he's not trying to change his career. This piece of advice you offer is much more relevant. Well, sure. The problem is that he's going on as if the mechanic doesn't exist at all, which rather suggests not being familiar with the game mechanics GÇö a problem that's further deepened by his apparent fondness for blocking people who are trying to explain things to him.
The other problem is his choice of activity (which he refuses to accept as a bad one, in spite of it apparently causing effects he's not fond of) GÇö a problem that is not actually what he thinks it is since if he was simply running missions, the standings loss is entirely avoidable (again, a result of bad choices), and if it's a matter of doing FW, the standings loss is irrelevant since he could have +10 across the board and still be hunted for being an enemy of the stateGǪ
Either way, it's a matter of wilful ignorance far more than of bad game mechanics. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Zircon Dasher
238
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:09:00 -
[108] - Quote
@Tippia and Smohq
TBH I am not interested in the OP on a literal basis.
The fact that it is *possible* to raise standings from -10 does not negate the fact that grinding missions (after the single use get out of jail free card) is worse than grinding sec status as it would be akin to making pvp'ers rat up sec status shooting 16 frigs/increase. All it does is effectively force people into long PVE grinds. The people who might "abuse" the tag system for financial gain already do so via alts (see this thread), so the only people getting punished are those people who want one character and do not want to spend the next month doing PVE just because they took part in game content years ago.
Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Zircon Dasher
238
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:14:00 -
[109] - Quote
Tippia wrote: the standings loss is entirely avoidable (again, a result of bad choices), and if it's a matter of doing FW, the standings loss is irrelevant since he could have +10 across the board and still be hunted for being an enemy of the stateGǪ
Either way, it's a matter of wilful ignorance and refusal to accept responsibility far more than of bad game mechanics.
The same could be said about sec standing. Many players, and CCP evidently, thought it was a bad mechanic. If the principle does not apply in this case I would be interested in hearing why not. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Kali Maat
PVP FAST
21
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:16:00 -
[110] - Quote
the tags4sec work great. tegs4standing would be a great.way to help people from corporation with different players from different origins align there standing in a more flexible and meaning full way then grinding missions. (wich is not entirely the most fun part of playing Eve by far. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14861
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:26:00 -
[111] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:The same could be said about sec standing. Many players, and CCP evidently, thought it was a bad mechanic. Actually, no, the same thing was never said about sec status. It being a punishment for GÇ£badGÇ¥ behaviour was always fully accepted. It was also never really seen as a bad choice.
I suppose what you're really referring to is the recover mechanic. The difference there is that sec status recover hasn't actually changed: it's still a lot of grinding that needs to be done. It has just been decoupled in time and space (and agency). Faction standing has had a quick out for yonks. Another difference is that grinding sec status back always was (and still is) much easier than faction standing GÇö the latter being more of a long-term decision consequence GÇö which would explain why the quick out was needed, but only available as a one shot.
The principle applies. It applies so hard that it existed long before it was transferred to sec status. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8329
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:27:00 -
[112] - Quote
When you make a decision to join Factional Warfare, you are no longer a Civilian and have become an active member of a Militia in an on-going war which is bound by different rules.
Doesn't matter if you have positive standing with the Enemy Factions and haven't shot any opposing ships. You will still be attacked by their defending forces if you enter their space simply due to being a member of a Militia that has declared open war..
That's it. Decisions have consequences. However, with a little bit of time those consequences can be amended by other decisions.
As a Civilian, you can quickly repair negative Faction standings within a few weeks. Doesn't matter if you've spent years acquiring -10.00 Faction standing, it can still be repaired rather quickly through various methods. If you had actually researched 'The Plan', you'd know that countless of New Eden Citizens have quickly and easily repaired their negative Faction standings.
If you want to do it, you can do everything in Eve. You just have to plan accordingly and as in real life, it takes time to implement.
DMC
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Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
69
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:56:00 -
[113] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:When you make a decision to join Factional Warfare, you are no longer a Civilian and have become an active member of a Militia in an on-going war which is bound by different rules. Doesn't matter if you have positive standing with the Enemy Factions and haven't shot any opposing ships. You will still be attacked by their defending forces if you enter their space simply due to being a member of a Militia that has declared open war.. That's it. Decisions have consequences. However, with a little bit of time those consequences can be amended by other decisions. As a Civilian, you can quickly repair negative Faction standings within a few weeks. Doesn't matter if you've spent years acquiring -10.00 Faction standing, it can still be repaired rather quickly through various methods. If you had actually researched ' The Plan', you'd know that countless of New Eden Citizens have quickly and easily repaired their negative Faction standings. If you want to do it, you can do everything in Eve. You just have to plan accordingly and as in real life, it takes time to implement. DMC
i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted. tags4faction would offer both, consequences for what you do and a more flexible way to fix it. thats the future! OMG! the asteroid is depleted! |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 23:18:00 -
[114] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:
i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.
Stop shooting at enemy navies, then. Why is this so hard to understand? If you want to be a trader/hauler in all four quadrants, you can't shoot the navies of those four quadrants. If you want to participate in fw or take missions that shoot other navies, you should not be surprised when those same navies want to shoot you. Shooting other navies and having them welcome you into their space are kinda' opposites of each other.
It's really your choice. Shoot one or more navy factions on a regular basis or be welcomed in all four quadrants. I fail to see how this is a bad mechanic. You shot at their ships. They don't like that, nor should they. They want to shoot you for it and they should. You want an easy way to switch back and forth. I say that is against the idea of having anything you do mean something in this game.
I love that this game takes effort and brainpower and planning. I hope you learn to appreciate that.
I can see how it is going, though, OP. You are not looking for answers or reasons why, you're looking to change the mechanics so it is easier for you. Who needs long-term consequences, eh? Just a slap on the wrist? hmph. I stay here because there is no 'easy mode'. |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
69
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:25:00 -
[115] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:Harry Forever wrote:
i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.
Stop shooting at enemy navies, then. Why is this so hard to understand? If you want to be a trader/hauler in all four quadrants, you can't shoot the navies of those four quadrants. If you want to participate in fw or take missions that shoot other navies, you should not be surprised when those same navies want to shoot you. Shooting other navies and having them welcome you into their space are kinda' opposites of each other. It's really your choice. Shoot one or more navy factions on a regular basis or be welcomed in all four quadrants. I fail to see how this is a bad mechanic. You shot at their ships. They don't like that, nor should they. They want to shoot you for it and they should. You want an easy way to switch back and forth. I say that is against the idea of having anything you do mean something in this game. I love that this game takes effort and brainpower and planning. I hope you learn to appreciate that. I can see how it is going, though, OP. You are not looking for answers or reasons why, you're looking to change the mechanics so it is easier for you. Who needs long-term consequences, eh? Just a slap on the wrist? hmph. I stay here because there is no 'easy mode'.
I don't say it needs to be easy the tags4sec is also not easy, i just do not want to grind level 1 missions because i did some faction warfare, thats all... you guys are way to resistant OMG! the asteroid is depleted! |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8331
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 23:25:00 -
[116] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:
i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.
I'm sorry, obviously you don't understand the mechanics or the math regarding how standings work. Maybe this will enlighten you - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Standings_mechanics
Doesn't matter about the skill level of characters. All characters are confined to level 1 Agents when they drop below -2.00 Faction standing, plain and simple. That's the rules of the game.
'The Plan' is not flawed nor is it outdated. In fact, it's only a few years old and it doesn't have to be followed to the letter. It can be customized to fit each players specific situation.
Anyway, I don't need to defend 'The Plan'. It has proven itself to be very effective which has been confirmed by the playerbase time and time again.
Good luck to you.
DMC |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
69
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:28:00 -
[117] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Harry Forever wrote:
i did read through the plan, it is flawed as it lets players with high trained characters play level one missions for hours wich are extremly boring for them, the faction standing system needs a revamp, it is outdated and does not fit into the game anymore, just keeping it because it always was like that is the worst argument, the game and playstyle did change a lot, therefore that area needs to be adjusted.
I'm sorry, obviously you don't understand the mechanics or the math regarding how standings work. Maybe this will enlighten you - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Standings_mechanicsDoesn't matter about the skill level of characters. All characters are confined to level 1 Agents when they drop below -2.00 Faction standing, plain and simple. That's the rules of the game. 'The Plan' is not flawed nor is it outdated. In fact, it's only a few years old and it doesn't have to be followed to the letter. It can be customized to fit each players specific situation. Anyway, I don't need to defend 'The Plan'. It has proven itself to be very effective which has been confirmed by the playerbase time and time again. Good luck to you. DMC
but thats the point it does not make sense to play level 1 missions for hours if you have a high trained character, people don't want that, they want a different way to fix the standings, maybe a challanging way but not boring level 1 missions for hours
the plan just shows that the faction standing mechanic has issues for a lot of players, therefore it needs to be adjusted, anyway, it will happen if you want it or not OMG! the asteroid is depleted! |
Baldour Ngarr
British Federation
2
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:31:00 -
[118] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote: I don't say it needs to be easy the tags4sec is also not easy, i just do not want to grind level 1 missions because i did some faction warfare, thats all...
Alright, then. Don't. Problem solved.
Unless, of course, what you're really saying is "I should be able to do what I like without having to face any consequences." People will be resistant to that argument - and rightly so. |
Zircon Dasher
244
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Posted - 2013.06.15 23:34:00 -
[119] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[quote=Zircon Dasher] The difference there is that sec status recover hasn't actually changed: it's still a lot of grinding that needs to be done. It has just been decoupled in time and space (and agency). Faction standing has had a quick out for yonks. Another difference is that grinding sec status back always was (and still is) much easier than faction standing GÇö the latter being more of a long-term decision consequence GÇö which would explain why the quick out was needed, but only available as a one shot.
The principle applies. It applies so hard that it existed long before it was transferred to sec status.
Hmm. I am still not clear on your argument.
Tags for faction standing would still require someone grinding but would enable the time/space/agential decoupling found in tags4sec. Since the amount of time necessary remains static all that really changes is the ability to purchase other people's time. What is wrong with that? Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
69
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 23:35:00 -
[120] - Quote
Baldour Ngarr wrote:Harry Forever wrote: I don't say it needs to be easy the tags4sec is also not easy, i just do not want to grind level 1 missions because i did some faction warfare, thats all...
Alright, then. Don't. Problem solved. Unless, of course, what you're really saying is "I should be able to do what I like without having to face any consequences." People will be resistant to that argument - and rightly so.
consequences are ok, but its not ok to have high trained characters play boring hours of level 1 missions again and again to fix standings, there needs to be another mechanic to fix it OMG! the asteroid is depleted! |
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