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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
122
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 09:05:00 -
[91] - Quote
Wonder what would happen if strat cruiser were to receive a massnerf. Afterall the models are mostly bigger than bc/cs and either or both dps and tank are at about BS level. I only correct my own spelling. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
792
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 09:17:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
who the **** are Chitsa and James? Surely they the only two eve online players worth listening to.
The nominated CSM wormhole representatives... They're not the authority on everything wormhole related but their opinion and activity certainly matters. Putting work in since 2010. |

Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
259
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 10:51:00 -
[93] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
who the **** are Chitsa and James? Surely they the only two eve online players worth listening to.
The nominated CSM wormhole representatives... They're not the authority on everything wormhole related but their opinion and activity certainly matters.
Ah. I see.
|

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1527
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 11:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Quote:Or it will force you to break your blobs into smaller units, since if you bring a blob of straight dps through I can sit back and alpha you back to highsec. Seen quite a few try that and it don't work quite like that. Quote: The reason nullsec is seeing so many shifts is twofold.
Comparing null sex to WH doesn't really work well. See below: Quote: One is the power of the microjump drive on battleships. Since only a scram will prevent a warpout you either have to grab everybody at once or be forced to play ping pong games trying to grab one ship at a time while being shelled from range the entire time.
Second is the tierecide has buffed neut ranges on the geddons , ewar on the celestis which allows you to play two different types of alpha that will wreck a t3 fleet. The first is alpha cap/ewar. Enough range boosted geddons will zap the cap on anything nearby. And the celestises will ensure that unless your logistics stays in the danger zone they will never be able to lock further than the paint on their hulls. The second is a combination of the tracking bonus to the mega and the sentry bonus to the domis. The latter which allows for perfect alpha, since once the drones are assigned they follow the will of the FC at the speed of the FC, not individual knuckleheads trying to find targets on their poorly set up overviews. As for the tracking on the mega, since it is now prohibitively dangerous to stay in close with the exception of suicide goku fleets or doom portals, the buff to the tracking of the longest ranged weapon in the game makes it an obvious choice. There is still a very rock paper scissors meta here, until you start doing silly things with cap swarms and supers.
The availability of cynos and variable points of entry makes this work in nullsec so it seems all well and good. In wormholes however we only have the wormhole. Which makes every fight boring, since either you have to jump into me or me into you. Bringing all ranges to zero and concentrating everything into this little bitty sphere, where the do it all nature of the t3 makes it absurdly overpowered. Most of this is due to the nature of the terribleness of command ships and hacs in their current configurations, and the squishyness and inflexibility of recons. SInce the dangers to t3 fleets are removed by way of the limited mass of the wormhole they become overpowered because the only things that can beat them can't be used. Rendering them the one and only option out there. And that is both OP and boring at the same time.
Any discussion of battleships in WH is bascially mute. WH mass limitations can really create issues. Is it possible that since BS mass doesn't work well with WH that T3 reigns for that reason? (that is a rhetorical question btw) Seems pretty obvious your basic issue is blobs. Most often used definition for blob in EVE is "any fleet which is larger than ours".
Geez, none of this was a comparison of 0.0 to WH space. It was simply trying to make the statment that if T3's were the OP "IWIN" button of EVE, why don't 0.0 alliances just fly T3 fleets exclusively.
|

Royal Jedi
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
98
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 12:40:00 -
[95] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote: to use a somewhat ironic example... Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s. they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately.
solo T3s can lose to BCs small scale T3s will lose to ewar even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets
there are other option, people dont use them very much though.
(dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.)
Please don't try to tell me those alternatives are a more effective tactic than armor brawling t3's... thats just not true....
Guess the reason why we joined in with T3 fleets.... they beat everything else.
Your examples are so uncommon... Your not jumping into anyone and nano-ing around anymore and as far as alpha fleets are concerned when and who does that happen on a regular basis?
Sure, you can use alternatives but they are pretty terrible, stop trying to believe that there are more effective gangs in w-space today than just T3 T3 T3 T3, its a bit boring and i wish it would change. |

Sandslinger
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
99
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 14:05:00 -
[96] - Quote
Double post |

Sandslinger
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
99
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 14:05:00 -
[97] - Quote
Royal Jedi wrote:Jack Miton wrote: to use a somewhat ironic example... Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s. they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately.
solo T3s can lose to BCs small scale T3s will lose to ewar even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets
there are other option, people dont use them very much though.
(dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.)
Please don't try to tell me those alternatives are a more effective tactic than armor brawling t3's... thats just not true.... Guess the reason why we joined in with T3 fleets.... they beat everything else. Your examples are so uncommon... Your not jumping into anyone and nano-ing around anymore and as far as alpha fleets are concerned when and who does that on a regular basis? Sure, you can use alternatives but they are pretty terrible, stop trying to believe that there are more effective gangs in w-space today than just T3 T3 T3 T3, its a bit boring and i wish it would change.
Jack already pointed out the most flippin obvious thing already..
Remove T3's abilities to do the Armor brawl that they do now and Faction BC and Command ships will be the next thing to be used. wormholes encourage close range brawling by their very nature. If you jump into a gang that is simply sniping at you. you either fix a warpin on top of them or simply blueball them out of sheer boredom.
So what happens when everyone is using Bc and CMD. Well they have less utility for starters so less ewar options to play with, less ways to deal with guardians means more sheer dps focus to simply overcome guardian reps. Where now T3 allow plenty of ewar options for overcoming or confussling guardians enough to get kills through logi. I understand that you guys want to be able to range and kite everything in wormholes and transfer your tactic versus the nullsec idiots that run straight into them to wormholes. Truth is 99% of entities will simply just jump back through the wormhole and say **** chasing that. your not going to get what you want in wormholes regarding of how much you wish you could....
Back on BC and CMD, they have twice the sig so your looking at Dreads basically becoming twice as OP as they are now. Funny thing with the example given about the smaller unit standign up versus larger number with just 1/2 dreads. that is a nice example of a small unit utilizing a homefield advantage. However that tactic doesn't scale well. To beat it you simply need more flippin numbers then the opposing side. You need to be able to neutralize their web in some way orthe Dread itself, which means more and more numbers. And once you start talking about multiple dreads on field you need even larger numbers to beat it.
Unless the enemy is acting pure stupid Dread's give you a insane advantage and can't be beaten by a gang the same size which by itself promotes "blobbing" the enemy. Massive amounts of capitals is is why invasions now require hundreds of people and logistically burn out the people doing them. They are the main reason why Wspace got as static as it did.
But back to the T3 arguments. Sure T3 can do a lot of things well. Hauler,CovOpTackler or Brawler. Point is they are used for this because the nature of Wh space promotes it. Remove them and people will only ever use the second best option and so forth and so forth. Personally I think the interdiction subsystem is OP and wouldn't mind seeing it removed or seeing the Cov Op subsystem Kill the DPS on the ships. In that regard I do think they are a bit OP as they encroach on Recons (Bit biased here as they are my alltime fav ship)
The main problem I see is that unless T3 does something Very Well then why ever use them. Every tactic in eve has always leaned towards multiples of one ship that does one thing the best. I can not ever remember a tactic that relied on a ship that was a jack of all trades but worst at everything. If someone else does please give me a example. I'll list the counter ones I can name off the cuff here
Vagabond blob (best speed) - We used to **** BS fleets 5 times our size with these, fuckall dps per vaga but bring enough and they raped all while not even needing logi to tank all.
Vaga + Ishtar Nano Blob (Best speed coupled with best applied alpha dps)
Zealot Ahac blob (Best armor tank with guards) Abbadon sniper Blob ArtyBaddon Drake Blob Tengu Blob Hurricane blob
All of these and many before them had one thing in common, they were the best at their task so why ever use anything else. Unless CCP uniforms every race this will always be the case.
What you see in EvE is People find the ship that is best at its role and then use greater and greater numbers of that one ship. ever Play a fighting game versus that one guy that is using the one character that has a certain combo that almost no characters can block, or been that guy :P It's the same flippin thing human nature.
At least T3 by their nature in wormholes promotes the usage of ewar/tactics to win fights over equal or superior numbers whereupon the second best options promotes tons and tons of dps. I'll take fights based upon the former then the latter any flippin day.
As to the "spread our blob into smaller blobs to not get alphaed by your guys" comment below .... Is this a serious comment or some sort of ironic self troll ?? Please tell me it's the latter =)
One more comment to add.
I think the unformity in fitting T3 fleets could do well with some imaginative input. I hope we(NoHo) can provide this going forwards =) |

Royal Jedi
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
98
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 14:44:00 -
[98] - Quote
Sandslinger wrote: As to the "spread our blob into smaller blobs to not get alphaed by your guys" comment below .... Is this a serious comment or some sort of ironic self troll ?? Please tell me it's the latter =)
What? |

Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 15:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote: to use a somewhat ironic example... Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s. they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately.
solo T3s can lose to BCs small scale T3s will lose to ewar even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets
there are other option, people dont use them very much though.
(dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.)
Its not an ironic example, it is a poorly informed example. We used nano fleet tactics against "large" WH groups back in the day when 100 to 150 pilots in a corp / alliance was a "large" group. Second, many of those "large" groups did not have a full T3 fleet but rather a rag tag fleet sprinkled with T3s. Thirdly, our nano tactics worked well in an age when shield fleets were more popular, Tengus ruled the sky and very few pilots were trained for Loki or Proteus. All that is gone, a nano fleet cannot hold a candle to a T3 fleet in w-space, Lokis will web out to 50km (optimal range of a nano Talos) and Proteus can point to an insane distance. Not to mention that a nano fleet will get messed up on the initial warp in with the HIC bubble up.
And yeah we ended up with T3 as our ships of choice, why wouldn't we? EvE is all about "adopt or die" mentality and we don't like dying. |

Rengas
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
193
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 17:17:00 -
[100] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Royal Jedi wrote:Jack Miton wrote: PS: Yes, in WHs everyone ends up using T3s. This is probably because T3s are made and designed specifically for and from WHs, makes sense they'd be good at WHs. Saying T3s are the best ship for WHs is kinda like saying Titans are the best ship for doomsdaying carriers with. Well, yes, and?
Somewhat agree, but right now its pretty much the ONLY viable tactic in wspace, it shouldnt be T3 or GTFO. It would be nice to add a different dimension to wspace pvp. to use a somewhat ironic example... Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s. they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately. solo T3s can lose to BCs small scale T3s will lose to ewar even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets there are other option, people dont use them very much though. (dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.) Yeah we never use nano vs T3s these days.
Regardless, the posting quality on here is starting to rival Kugu.
Keep it up! |

James Arget
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
138
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 19:30:00 -
[101] - Quote
*sigh* Fine, I'll accelerate CCP's plans to nerf T3s. Sheesh. CSM 8 Representative
http://csm8.org |

Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
209
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 20:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
James Arget wrote:*sigh* Fine, I'll accelerate CCP's plans to nerf T3s. Sheesh.
Sad day indeed for EVE...
James, remember most of the world thought the world was flat at one time. Turns out they were wrong. I'm beginning to think many EVE players would have been 'flat earth' types!! |

Winthorp
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
156
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 22:43:00 -
[103] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:James Arget wrote:*sigh* Fine, I'll accelerate CCP's plans to nerf T3s. Sheesh. Sad day indeed for EVE... James, remember most of the world thought the world was flat at one time. Turns out they were wrong. I'm beginning to think many EVE players would have been 'flat earth' types!!
Shirly you're joking... or is he, is sarcasm lost on this generation. |

ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
111
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 01:42:00 -
[104] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Winthorp wrote:Messoroz wrote:DEATH TO TECH 3s.
Seriously, supers are easier to kill than a tech 3 blob. Geez enough of how much you love null already. Your like a broken record man. He's a broken record with blob... blob this... blob that... blob over there... blob over here... blobs of blobs. If he hates blobs so much, why go to null sex? If you hate blobs then NS is the last place you should go.
Hi can i just say you're a faggit, you and your alliance are not revenant.
and for the we don't nano anymore comments its a bit hard to fight t3 gangs with nano if all they do is sit at 0m on a wh like they have always done being skillless cunts who can only think of one way to counter it "Durr lets sit on the otherside at 0m and make them jump into us!" dem tactics. the only thing wrong with wpsace is the ******* useless cunts living in it. |

Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
213
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 03:49:00 -
[105] - Quote
Love both of you. One day you will get over yourself (or yourselves??). Both ot you probably weren't born when I graduated from HS. :) |

ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
116
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:08:00 -
[106] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Nathern Colition :) I graduated from HS before you were born. (sp is intentional)
ROSSLINDEN0, You have a tremendous grasp of the English language (name calling and profanity ftw). You pretty much proved very quickly you have nothing to add to the conversation. Thanks for trying though!!
why dont you take a seat and think of a comment you wont change in 2 minutes fuckign tool |

Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
408
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:51:00 -
[107] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Nathern Colition :) I graduated from HS before you were born. (sp is intentional)
ROSSLINDEN0, You have a tremendous grasp of the English language (name calling and profanity ftw). You pretty much proved very quickly you have nothing to add to the conversation. Thanks for trying though!!
It's ironic, I think he was English...or Irish...or Scottish...fudge..hes European, he has superior mastery of Englsih. |

Joan Greywind
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
48
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 04:48:00 -
[108] - Quote
If asked the question, what is the best ship type (comp) in wh space? If the answer is clear (it is really, bring t3's with guardian support) in most situations, then it is a problem. Are you saying they should nerf t3' to the ground? Of course not, but making more comps viable and talking about it doesn't seem bad at all. For instance the geddon didn't get nerfed, but "rebalanced". t3's are trickier I admit, but fleet comps are becoming somewhat bland in WH's.
As I said before, I use t3's almost exclusively, so I am not pitching from the other side of the fence.
On another note, I don't see the point of name calling, and calling someone out for his bad English. It serves no purpose but to diminish the discussion at hand. |

Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP Mass Overload
333
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 05:54:00 -
[109] - Quote
Would it change the current situation if we could change subsystems in wspace? It willresolve one of the problems with t3s inour space givi g the posibility of more flexible doctrines. |

Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
408
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 06:10:00 -
[110] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Would it change the current situation if we could change subsystems in wspace? It willresolve one of the problems with t3s inour space givi g the posibility of more flexible doctrines.
More flexible doctrines?What other doctrine is there besides armour blob?
Slightly more tanked armour blob? Slightly more dps armour blob? Cloaky armour blob? |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
832
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 10:03:00 -
[111] - Quote
Shield blobs? Putting work in since 2010. |

Chitsa Jason
Infinity Explorers Exhale.
645
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 11:23:00 -
[112] - Quote
This thread is going places.
/me like CSM8 Member Twitter:-á@ChitsaJason Skype: Casparas
|

Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
408
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 17:46:00 -
[113] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Shield blobs?
Try shield fitting proteuses.
I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
284
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 17:52:00 -
[114] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Shield blobs? Try shield fitting proteuses. I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first.
Before they nerfed TEs you could do a wanabbe shield adrestia fit on a prot, with the pointless nerf to TEs you can't hold the range needed and get the dps at that range needed to make it at all worthwhile tho.
|

Rengas
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
197
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 23:17:00 -
[115] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Messoroz wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Shield blobs? Try shield fitting proteuses. I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first. Before they nerfed TEs you could do a wanabbe shield adrestia fit on a prot, with the pointless nerf to TEs you can't hold the range needed and get the dps at that range needed to make it at all worthwhile tho. After the rail buff, shield kiting prots are going to be IWIN buttons. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
835
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 23:45:00 -
[116] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Shield blobs? Try shield fitting proteuses. I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first.
Hull tank blobs then?
Putting work in since 2010. |

Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
408
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 03:13:00 -
[117] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Messoroz wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Shield blobs? Try shield fitting proteuses. I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first. Hull tank blobs then?
We tested a Vindicator today with only 2 scimis agaisnt an 60 man kitchen fleet on a wormhole. The vindi killed everything in structure. This may work. 3 v 60 ftw. |

chris elliot
EG CORP Mass Overload
213
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 03:51:00 -
[118] - Quote
Rengas wrote:Rroff wrote:Messoroz wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Shield blobs? Try shield fitting proteuses. I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first. Before they nerfed TEs you could do a wanabbe shield adrestia fit on a prot, with the pointless nerf to TEs you can't hold the range needed and get the dps at that range needed to make it at all worthwhile tho. After the rail buff, shield kiting prots are going to be IWIN buttons.
I'm looking forward to it actually. |

Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
29
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 05:53:00 -
[119] - Quote
I will try to address the "problems" as I've encountered them, and suggest possible fixes. Being a wormhole denizen myself, my experience, offensively, and defensibly with tech 3's is this: Between my toons, I use and fly all four of them for what it's worth.
--You faction fit t3's. Not tech two, but faction, or even deadspace. You want every bang for your ship's buck, especially in wh space, so you're going to get better results out of it because of that.
--Hacs suck at the moment
--The loki, from my experience, is about perfectly balanced. You have to chose between tank or gank. The proteus and to some extent the tengu can do both while having bonuses to ewar.
--The proteus and tengu are the two "OP" if anything: The proteus gets over 1k dps, while having more low slots than a legion (being amarr, that's odd). Doing as much damage as a battleship...in a cruiser hull...causes issues. my old HAMgu is an issue-950-1k dps with implants, BUT you have to sacrifice tank and/or propulsion mods to do so. Which basically balances it out.
For the stats I fly with and run into, I frequently see these numbers: Legion (ham or laser), 80k ehp @750dps; or 125k ehp @650 dps (I have a dual plate fit that's 163k ehp @646 dps, but the resistances are mediocre) Loki (armor): 100k ehp @650 dps; (shield) 70k ehp @800 dps Protues: 163k ehp @950 dps; 195k ehp @800 dps tengu (hm): 105k-85k ehp @635 dps; (ham) 110k ehp @775 dps [my cloaky ham tengu does 545 dps]
Possible fixes: --If anything, the legion needs a slight buff; one more low slot added to the augmented plating and adaptive augmentor should fix that. If you cloak fit it, you're usually running 5 low slots compared to the proteus' 7.  --revoke a low slot on the proteus-then you will have to live with a resist hole and gank, or lose damage for a better tank (like the current legion) Tengu-I think is actually OK (shock, burn me at the stake!). You have to chose between tank and gank...usually The loki is in great shape I think, but it got hit by the resistance nerf. It could go for an amount subsystem.
I think once we pass the 800dps ,mark on a cruiser hull, we get into dangerous territory. Looking at the stats, i'd say the legion needs a slight buff (1 more low slot with an extra 10 or so CPU), and the proteus needs a slight nerf, but I fly it the least so I can't suggest a satisfactory compromise. It's the only one on my list that gets an amazing tank and amazing dps. Better than some battleships, and better than a lot of current command ships. |

Bamsey Amraa
Unseen Nomads Exiled Ones
33
|
Posted - 2013.07.15 06:41:00 -
[120] - Quote
First of all before you "nerf T3 players" get that nerf i propose new idea for CCP: Nerf T3 and add lost skill after death to all ships and we get true balance.... |
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