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Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
305
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Posted - 2013.06.21 14:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
About a week ago I entered a PLEX with a Merlin and my alt in a Bantam. Inside we find a hostile and a friendly in a Dramiel. In militia fashion I work with the Dramiel Pilot in order to dispatch the Gallente scum, providing shield reps and successfully killing the target.
After the moment passes I am typing to the Dram Pilot in local about - the kill asking if he had gotten the mail. My eyes peer over at my second screen, at which point I notice he has my Bantam Pilot (Who is in Faction Warfare as well) in structure and about to pop. The Bantam explodes in firey death.
Jumping to conclusions I assume he is an AWOXER (Poor decision on my part) engage the Dramiel Pilot and wax him. Later I find out he was in the Corps teamspeak channel at which point we both mutually chew each other out, call each other tossers and apologize for the actions on each others parts. I send the reasonable fellow 60 mil for the loss and we both get on with our lives - understanding that we both mutually screwed up, him by engaging the Bantam and myself acting without first attempting to discuss the situation with him.
But here is my question - Why is it that once he engaged my Bantam, that I lost standing for engaging and killing him? If he had initiated a hostile action first against a fellow militia mate - accidental or not. Why is it that those individuals defending themselves must suffer a standing penalty in order to do so? AWOXING has become one sided enough as it is, but this seems like a one sided mechanic. Joining FW I understand "HTFU", constantly losing security status for shooting neutrals in PLEXES that are clearly there to smash my face. But standing is a royal pain in the arse to get up.
Assuming I there isn't something I missed in this situation... some ideas -
My Suggestions - 1. If someone engages a friendly, whether accidental or on purpose - they receive a temporary status allowing them to be engaged without repercussions (Similar to suspect timer)
2. "Tag" individuals such as Adolf who have frequently engaged in AWOXING, making them an open target to either all militias or the militia being attacked. This only appears after a certain amount of "Awoxing" has been done (to be determined by devs). This tag would follow the individual regardless of corp, acting as a 24/7 kill right (Similar to that of pirate status). May only apply if the individual is in a FW corp. After a month or two it will disappear unless renewed by more AWOXING.
3. Provide militia mates the ability to "Forgive" an action taken against them - renewing faction loss but not security status. Yes, this is EvE and EvE has consequences. After training multiple rookies whether in corp or not, it is amazing how many people accidentally shoot logi due to auto targeting back. As well as the fact that many noobies may not have their overviews set correctly, firing on experienced players with which they assume are hostile until they are told to cease and desist.
Some Unrelated Things
4. Timer Roll Backs - Common FW complaint.
5. Suspect timer for Neutrals (Even FW bunnies too if you want) upon entering a PLEX. The fact is, any Neutral going to a gate is often going there for one hostile action or another. Although I do pirate once in a while, I've lost majority of my status from shooting neutrals who are trying to kill me inside a PLEX. I would assume that FW pilots would be considered privateers at least within these areas. When flying a kiting ship I have lost 2.0 of security status engaging an entire neutral fleet within a PLEX.
-----// End Rant // -----// Proceed to gather your buckets in which to collect my tears//
Regardless of whether anything is changed, I'll live. But it truly seems like these are broken mechanics in my opinion, and although EvE is meant to be unforgiving - these are practical things I believe should be applied.
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Roxxo I'doCocaine
SlammaJammaBamma
21
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Posted - 2013.06.21 15:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
There's a forum for suggested changes.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6338&find=unread
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Ovv Topik
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
426
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Posted - 2013.06.21 15:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Whilst I agree with points 2, and 3, I think point one would only encourage Awoxing. "Fly it Like You Stole It!" - and yes I stole that quote, so: "Post It Like You Stole it!" too I guess. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
525
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Posted - 2013.06.21 15:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
"... providing shield reps..." to awoxer
shame on you. |
Mirel Dystoph
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
70
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Posted - 2013.06.21 15:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Learn the meaning of awoxing before you post again, kkthxbye. "Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise."-á |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
225
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Posted - 2013.06.21 16:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:
But here is my question - Why is it that once he engaged my Bantam, that I lost standing for engaging and killing him? If he had initiated a hostile action first against a fellow militia mate - accidental or not. Why is it that those individuals defending themselves must suffer a standing penalty in order to do so? AWOXING has become one sided enough as it is, but this seems like a one sided mechanic. Joining FW I understand "HTFU", constantly losing security status for shooting neutrals in PLEXES that are clearly there to smash my face. But standing is a royal pain in the arse to get up.
These things are so incidental that it's not worth CCP's time to do anything about it, especially considering how many other more important changes they have on the table.
I think you handled it well enough. often times "AWOXING" can be a case of mistaken identity if the pilot getting attacked has a low sec status and the "aggressor" hasn't fixed his overview to put all of the "blue" types to the top of the list.
If it were intentional then your recourse is via the leadership of the AWOX-er's corp. In the alliance my main is in, if someone engages in AWOX-ing then the corp is immediately kicked out of alliance until the corp leadership have dealt with it appropriately. Frankly, this would help a lot more than anything CCP could do.
You know the MoSCoW prioritizing system?
Must have Should have Could have Won't have
At most this issue rates a "could have" on my personal scale and honestly I wouldn't object if it were rated a "won't have" |
Trinkets friend
T.R.I.A.D
1035
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Posted - 2013.06.22 04:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
"mistaken identifty"
Yep, that damn overview!
Indigently pwning indifferently. Some sucker buy me a Naglfar. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
423
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Posted - 2013.06.22 11:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:"... providing shield reps..." to awoxer
shame on you.
100% this.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
431
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Posted - 2013.06.22 16:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
If he engaged first, I personally don't feel you should have apologised or reimbursed him. |
Machagon
Plate of Beans Incorporated
4
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Posted - 2013.06.22 16:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Show me the part where your pilot was penalized for defending himself. |
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Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
308
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Posted - 2013.06.23 00:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Machagon wrote:Show me the part where your pilot was penalized for defending himself.
The part where I lost a ton of standing for shooting him after engaging my FW Bantam alt. Which since he had originally engaged first, I should of lost none in the process. This means that your typical FW AWOXER can get away with attacking one guy in the fleet and if everyone engages they lose a ton of their faction standing. To me that seems absurdly broken. Do you lose security status when someone fires on you first? |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
308
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Posted - 2013.06.23 01:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mirel Dystoph wrote:Learn the meaning of awoxing before you post again, kkthxbye.
AWOXING has a different definition in FW space in comparison to dullsec. Everyone in militia is typically assumed to be either indifferent or allied. This means that they can still engage you though, taking the standard security status hit as well as a major faction hit. But, this is circumvented by providing them with dummy corps that they can jump in and out of - making their faction status pointless.
In this case the person in question was NOT an AWOXER, but made an accident which initially made him appear so. Fact is though, this does say alot about the current system in which defending parties are penalized over that of the AWOXER themselves. The AWOXER has no value on anything, as they can easily jump in and out of their dummy corp (Yep, you can't get them kicked from alliance or their corp) without repercussion. If you choose to defend yourself after they've fired at you, you are penalized. Which means the only real way from what I can see is to either use a neutral alt to kill them, an opposite faction alt or just leave as soon as they show up.
That yells "Broken" |
Liam Inkuras
Justified Chaos
320
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Posted - 2013.06.24 12:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hey! That Gallente scum was me! I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
David Devant
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
84
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Posted - 2013.06.24 12:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Huhuh. Penal. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
425
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Posted - 2013.06.24 14:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:Hey! That Gallente scum was me!
Look at all the drama you have caused.
The beginning of Seans story is about you - aka 'the gallente scum.' But if the story didn't have a beginning - then it couldn't have ended.
Therefore - This entire incident is your fault.
You should be totally ashamed of yourself for the pain and anguish you have caused Sean Parisi.
This of course can be made right and your sins will be washed away after you make a massive isk donation to your local Church of Awesome. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Liam Inkuras
Justified Chaos
321
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Posted - 2013.06.25 12:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
<3 Sean I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Anna Djan
Banana Corp
16
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
I wouldn't worry to much about it. Many times now my corp and i hace been accused of awoxing. Some how people think same faction in FW is a pass for being a **** :)
More funny is the knights who send you mails afterwards. |
Haulie Berry
1097
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote:I send the reasonable fellow 60 mil for the loss and we both get on with our lives - understanding that we both mutually screwed up, him by engaging the Bantam and myself acting without first attempting to discuss the situation with him.
Lolwut?
You sent him what?
I'd have considered the valuable lesson to be ample compensation. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
430
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Posted - 2013.06.26 08:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:<3 Sean
He will be happy to know that.
Seriously - He normally only attracts bunny boilers. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Marcus Gideon
Federal Defense Operations Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
136
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Wait, what?
1 - Merlin pilot
2 - Bantam pilot
3 - Dramiel pilot
4 - "Gallente scum"
So 2 completely separate pilots, Merlin and Bantam, warped in. They found Dramiel shooting at Scum. They moved to assist, at which point there are now 4 completely separate pilots in a firefight.
After the fight... Bantam comes under fire from Dramiel, and subsequently dies. Merlin engages Dramiel to avenge the death of Bantam... but Merlin is penalized for aggressing an otherwise neutral party.
This is precisely how the game works. The fight was between Bantam and Dramiel... Merlin had no "rights" to attack. Hence, Merlin loses Standings. Where the confusion seems to come, is Merlin and Bantam on the same keyboard. "You" are flying them both, but they are not the same person "in game".
With the recent changes to flags, times are MUCH simpler. OP is asking to make things overly complicated again, like they used to be.
As it stands... you are a threat to 1 person (Limited Engagement), or you are a threat to everybody (Suspect), or you are Concord bait (Criminal).
You could add in War Targets or Negative Standings, for good measure.
The story opened by saying the Dram was friendly. And you shot a friendly target. That's why you were penalized. |
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Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
313
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Marcus Gideon wrote:Wait, what?
1 - Merlin pilot
2 - Bantam pilot
3 - Dramiel pilot
4 - "Gallente scum"
So 2 completely separate pilots, Merlin and Bantam, warped in. They found Dramiel shooting at Scum. They moved to assist, at which point there are now 4 completely separate pilots in a firefight.
After the fight... Bantam comes under fire from Dramiel, and subsequently dies. Merlin engages Dramiel to avenge the death of Bantam... but Merlin is penalized for aggressing an otherwise neutral party.
This is precisely how the game works. The fight was between Bantam and Dramiel... Merlin had no "rights" to attack. Hence, Merlin loses Standings. Where the confusion seems to come, is Merlin and Bantam on the same keyboard. "You" are flying them both, but they are not the same person "in game".
With the recent changes to flags, times are MUCH simpler. OP is asking to make things overly complicated again, like they used to be.
As it stands... you are a threat to 1 person (Limited Engagement), or you are a threat to everybody (Suspect), or you are Concord bait (Criminal).
You could add in War Targets or Negative Standings, for good measure.
The story opened by saying the Dram was friendly. And you shot a friendly target. That's why you were penalized.
Even if you are suspect, I do believe you STILL lose standings. This is what I believe you are ignoring in this entire process. If you come in and shoot me, turn suspect - the way FW works (Correct me if I'm wrong). If the fleet that was assisting me engaged you due to "Suspect" while in militia, they would all lose standings.
Second off, the Dram was friendly. The only reason he attacked the Bantam was due to poor overview settings most likely set on by the changes in crime watch. Which make the FW alt repping a FW player go suspect, we had actually talked about the battle after. At which point I had my other monitor covered reading something (ironically while floating in space with the other guy). By the time I actually panned over the Bantam was hitting structure and exploded.
The point is, at the end of the day these mechanics need to be streamlined and implemented to avoid abuse. I don't care if someone like Adolf goes around with the militia tag killing people. What matters is that people should be able to fire on someone who is an obvious threat.
From what I am aware of, if you attack a Faction Warfare Player who is suspect, this will still cause a standing loss (Which I think it should). What would be nice is if we could have a section explaining how Crime Watch and FW work in conjunction with each other to at-least explain all factors. |
ez caper
Devlon Industries Defiant Legacy
0
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Posted - 2013.06.29 06:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
yeah there is some wierd stuff happening with FW and the flags system
standings get burned by shooting obvious awoxers,and there is no inteligent way around them
also the only way to get standings back after you reach the last rank in fw for the first time is doing normal missions,and since you cant got to high sec you gotta do said missions in low sec,franky too much of a pain to be bothered with |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1452
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Posted - 2013.07.02 15:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:Machagon wrote:Show me the part where your pilot was penalized for defending himself. The part where I lost a ton of standing for shooting him after engaging my FW Bantam alt. Which since he had originally engaged first, I should of lost none in the process. This means that your typical FW AWOXER can get away with attacking one guy in the fleet and if everyone engages they lose a ton of their faction standing. To me that seems absurdly broken. Do you lose security status when someone fires on you first?
So your bantam character wasn't defending himself. An entirely separate character started an entirely unprovoked aggression and got what he deserved.
sounds fine to me |
Metal Icarus
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
584
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Posted - 2013.07.02 15:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
You gave him 60mil?
You shouldn't have given him any money for being a stupid pilot. |
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