Low-Security Space is VERY hostile towards new players.

The Problem:


#1 The content is far too severe for these type of ships to be competitive.
This leads us to two paths:
Fix the ships
Fix the Content

#2 The competition is fairly extreme as advanced players with skill points in excess of 25 to 30 million SP are competing for the exact same resources.
This leads us to two paths:
Increase the density of content
Create more low-security systems.

#3 Entering low-sec is very difficult
This leads us to two paths
Increase the Size of Low-sec gates so they are not as easily camped
Create a Jump timer where folks changing "sec" get a 30 second invulnerability timer to warp off, making camping inter-sec gates profitless.

Flame Retardant:
#1 I realize that some of the problems are related to "lack of knowledge" and that is partially responsible for bad fits.

#2 I am aware this is supposed to be a multi-player game, but when there is not enough content to go around it gets boring.

#3 I am not trying to kill pirates as a profession there are lots of gates that connect low to low, null to null that can be camped effectively. As a matter of fact if the transition gates were protected you'd have lots more people in the low-sec systems to kill.

The Problem:
Far too many "little of everything" ships piloted by EVE's most valuable sort of player "The Brave Newcomer" are destroyed in low-sec on a daily basis.

.

The Problem:
Far too many "little of everything" ships piloted by EVE's most valuable sort of player "The Brave Newcomer" are destroyed in low-sec on a daily basis.

Oh please, do tell exactly why a Noob, who has contributed virtually nothing to EVE Online, is a more valuable player than me.

I'm dying to hear it.

Low-Security Space is VERY hostile towards Solo players

I can't believe someone like you, Galaxy Chicken, who spends all his time mincing around HIGH SEC ganking miners, is posting in a thread about noob problems in low sec. Worse, criticising someone else for "contributing nothing". What have you contributed with your little Catalyst fleet?

Nothing.

If only there were a area of space for new players with higher security...maybe like a "high-sec".

Greetings citizen,
Though I'm glad I could make your day, I feel I must clarify. I in no way criticized new players, I just stated a fact. They're new. How could they possibly have contributed much at all to the game if they've only recently started playing? They don't even know if they're going to stay. Also, what exactly makes them more valuable than a 2007 player like myself?

Go with the Code.
www.minerbumping.com

As a new player myself, I personally have not yet ventured into anthing <0.4

For a few reasons. I am both too busy playing the SkillQueue minigame, and when I do get the time to actually play (which isn't very often) I realize that building combat skills/technique and ISK in PVE missions is the best place to start.

I don't plan on entering much of losec or null until I am comfortable with losing 3-4mil ISK with each jump.

Players who fly ships with "a little bit of everything" need to be put of of their misery for the dignity of the ship they are attempting to fly.

EDIT: OP is a troll, still, my point is still valid.

They're valuable because a poor new experience will put someone off for life, and they won't come back. They'll just say, "oh Eve, yea, that sucks". Eve needs new subs to maintain its user base as older players wither and die. And you don't help with that by capping miners in high sec.

Learn to love losing your stuff because the game is a lot more fun when you take risks and chances than when you sit in hisec running missions and mining all day.

Well I could argue that the NO attracts players as well, and that they're of higher quality than AFK ice miners, but I think that's for a different discussion.

The Problem:
Far too many "little of everything" ships piloted by EVE's most valuable sort of player "The Brave Newcomer" are destroyed in low-sec on a daily basis.

A little of everything?

As a new player I find that trying to compete with alliances or corps just isn't worth my time, even if I manage to kill someones rifter, the time I spent traveling & fighting in lowsec didn't net me enough profit to pay for my ammo. New players are much better off focusing on mining barge skills, and making enough isk to purchase a character that isn't significantly disadvantaged in EvE.

So create a miner just so you can afford to buy a character that someone else created. Why bother, if you're going to do that you might as well buy PLEX and sell to raise the isk to buy a pre-made character.

A solo player (solo account) can never compete with a corp (not including 1 person corps) or alliances. Eve is not based on a fair universe if you think it is you're just deluding yourself.

I can't believe someone like you, Galaxy Chicken, who spends all his time mincing around HIGH SEC ganking miners, is posting in a thread about noob problems in low sec. Worse, criticising someone else for "contributing nothing". What have you contributed with your little Catalyst fleet?

Nothing.

Your argument assumes a lot of things, does the player have the money to buy multiple plex, why should they purchase isk when they can earn it, why is the game designed around ganking people in large groups and attempting to claim to be good pvpers, obviously they need an in game tournament system that takes away skill point and numerical advantage to prove players are skillful in combat, the only way to prove players are affluent with the gameplay mechanics involves going into hostile space and competing against a vastly superior force.

I never said the game should be fair, I said trying to compete as a new player isn't worth the time you could spend making isk. Thats what eve is about, making isk.

Another point I'd like to make is you can find the best pvpers sitting outside station dueling in hisec.

If eve for you is solely about making isk, I feel sorry for you I do. There is so much to do and see out here that you are really missing out if the your gameplay consists of mining and missioning, for an ever larger pile of isk.

The only things keeping any one out of low sec is ignorance of the mechanics needed to stay alive or it is simply cowardice.

I'm 4 mil sp and have been exploring in low since before odyssey, have been catching awesome solo fights in frigates about as long. And I can tell you 9 out of 10 times that I've lost it wasn't because a high sp player simply out damaged or out tanked me it was because I made a mistake in piloting the fight itself.

I'm having too much fun out here to be assed with mining or missions. There are better games for such dull minded endeavors.

Hahahaha, come on now you are trolling right?

Why don't you go duel someone in jita, and find out how good you are :D

most new players, also have the comon sense to not go into low security space until their ready, even if they dont have that comon sense they still should.

Because they've good an elite fleet booster somewhere in system, probably.

Low sec is where most noobs likely lose their first ships. Heck that is where I lost mine. Went in looking for better ore. Before I had even locked the rock... splat. Of coarse being a noob I flipped my biscuit, but know I am pissed just because I have to refit a ship after getting popped not at the loss itself. What most don't realise is most of low is vacant.

I can't believe someone like you, Galaxy Chicken, who spends all his time mincing around HIGH SEC ganking miners, is posting in a thread about noob problems in low sec. Worse, criticising someone else for "contributing nothing". What have you contributed with your little Catalyst fleet?

Nothing

They've contributed more than someone still on their trial period, yeah. They literally keep the economy going. They keep down inflation by continuing to insure the destruction of ships. The entire game is based off of the concept that obtainable items are all destructible, that is the foundation of the EVE economy.

They kill people. Those people buy ships. The NO buys and sacrifices ships to kill people. And the circle of life continues.

Besides that, as someone else mentioned, the normally opaque and silent local chat lights up like a Christmas tree when they show up in system. It's hilarious. (In the interest of full disclosure, it should be noted that I love tears, so I am hardly objective in this particular regard)

Inflation is the result of super alliances being allowed in the game, they control all of the tech moons, and wealthy parts of space, the game would have less inflation if you couldn't have a monopoly on everything valuable outside of empire.

Have you ever heard of Greedy Goblin? He did an analysis of the passive income of the big alliances. It's actually not that great per person per month.

Inflation in the game is caused by a significant increase in wealth per player combined with a decrease in losses. Highsec mining is the epitome of this. The nullsec alliances routinely blow huge amounts of money on fleet fights, what they get in income, a lot of it is spent. Yeah, some times they hoard it for a while, and some times they do stuff like the Fountain War, where billions and billions are lost every day. No highsec miner does this.

That is boloney hisec mining is what provides everyone who isn't in a super alliance an income when they first drop into the game, the ability to control all of the valuable moons, and the production of t2 and capitals provides way more income to people who know how to manipulate the markets than some noob in a venture. Once players manipulate the economy by controlling production you have inflation, because money to them is less valuable, and they are greedy. Market manipulation isn't caused by miners, its caused by alliances.

That is boloney hisec mining is what provides everyone who isn't in a super alliance an income when they first drop into the game

the ability to control all of the valuable moons, and the production of t2 and capitals provides way more income to people who know how to manipulate the markets than some noob in a venture.

Once players manipulate the economy by controlling production you have inflation

because money to them is less valuable, and they are greedy. Market manipulation isn't caused by miners, its caused by alliances.

I guess warping to randomly generated objects in space can be fun for some people.

Huh, that's funny, could have sworn I did station trading all day long when I first started... So yeah, that's entirely BS.



Those things also cost vastly more than a venture, and have a MUCH higher opportunity cost. They should be more profitable.




Actually, you have capitalism. You can't change the literal definition of the word "inflation" just because you want to use it to win an argument you shouldn't have started.



Bull. Market manipulation is everything you do. Every time you undercut someone for a thousand units of Glacial Mass, you have manipulated the market. Every time you buy faction ammo to blow up a retriever in an ice belt, you have manipulated the market.

Also, love the whole greed bashing thing. Why is their evident self interest any worse than yours? They have every right to play the same game you do, and if they actually, (heaven forbid) have friends, and get together to have an effect on the game, well, that is precisely what is supposed to happen in a sandbox game.

So, I must ask, do you have any kind of economic background? You seem shockingly ignorant of the subject.

Greetings citizen,
Though I'm glad I could make your day, I feel I must clarify. I in no way criticized new players, I just stated a fact. They're new. How could they possibly have contributed much at all to the game if they've only recently started playing? They don't even know if they're going to stay. Also, what exactly makes them more valuable than a 2007 player like myself?

Go with the Code.
www.minerbumping.com

They pay their subscription fee with actual monies.... just saying.

Greed is the driving force behind all lesser humans.

ANOTHER person who is absolutely clueless as to how the PLEX system works??? I've already dealt with one of you today.

Oh, I see. And by what metric do you label them Untermensch?

Or are you simply attempting to apply a negative label to something you dislike? Which makes you no better than people who love to shoot at "carebears". You are morally equivalent. Actually, you're lower, because they state openly their intent, you dissemble and try to wrap yourself in the flag of e-honor.

So please, explain that statement. In fact, I dare you.

You're a benevolent benefactor helping to drive a market that simply serves as an anti-faucet for CCP's ISK sales? Nah, I don't buy it sorry.

Best to keep things simple; you contribute money to CCP or you don't. If you drive all the newbies out of Eve, who will buy the PLEX to sell you?

New player here. Love the idea of making transition gates between sectors less easy to gatecamp, and also would love there to be more lo and nullsec systems. Like another 2000 would be awesome. Exploring the wilderness is cool. Getting discovered deep beyond frontier territory and blown up is fine. Getting ganked one sustem into lolsec is boring.

The truth of the matter is that they are interrelated. Creation of assets neccesitates destruction of assets.

Fit your ship for travelling to get past gatecamps. Cloak in the high, MWD in mid, 2x Warp Core Stabs + Inertial Stabs in other lows, plus any tank. Do the microwardrive cloak trick until you get a few jumps in to the quiet system, dock in a station and take your pve/pvp fit out of cargohold and refit.

Lowsec is funsec.

Greed is a basic instinct, to call yourself a human is to be aware of the instincts that are negative, this is why we don't go around killing people, or having sex with our brothers wife, being able to make a conscious decision not to be a parasite is what makes us different from animals.

You can look up the idea of Transhumanism, or Evolution, I don't know if you're aware of those ideals, but for an intelligent species to evolve they have to eliminate the parasites

Let me put this to you a different way.

If people didn't experience loss at the hands of the more PvP oriented population of the game, what need would there be for people to buy PLEX to make money off of it?

The truth of the matter is that they are interrelated. Creation of assets neccesitates destruction of assets.

Ok this makes no sense.

Greed, which would be desire to accumulate more assets, is a basic instinct. Ok. Then you apply a large amount of negative connotations to this, even to them being "parasites".

But they do more for the game, and have more driving influence in production, than the AFK highsec miner, who just wants to sit around and make money all day without doing anything. They produce more, they buy more, they spend more. In every way, they are a more positive force to the economy and to EVE society at large.

Who is the parasite there? You literally just made my case for me. Further, you indirectly suggest that we have to eliminate the risk averse playerbase.

Seeing as, at this point, you are stumbling around your own arguments in a futile attempt to blame nullsec for all the ills of the game, and to label them all as being evil greedy subhumans, I can pretty much chalk this up to nullsec envy. You are a "have-not", hating on the "haves".

assuming he is flying a frigate, he won't survive the first alpha before he leaves warp, you see how hard up for kills these parasites are, they're too scared to fight each other so they must come up with ways to convince unsuspecting prey to feed them.

The idea is not to get targeted in the first place. Frigates are generally safe because things that can target frigs in time are things that can't tank the gate guns, unless they're setup in a group, or with instalocking lokis or sebo HICS or something in which case, a half billion isk ships just blew up your 5 million isk ship, bad luck.

Hmmmm. Not really sure how killing noobs in crap ships in low sec generates a whole lot of PLEX sales. It probably causes a whole lot of sales to go elsewhere though, like to other games.

Greed is taking more than you need, when others need it as well to survive, or doing things that have a negative effect on the whole of humanity to provide a temporary or long term positive effect for yourself. Which is why greed is our greatest and worst instinct, it can keep you alive, but it can also kill everything.

If you can justify the death of everything, this makes you a parasite, less than human.

Ok, so how are the nullsec guys taking more than need, when "others need it to survive"? Hmm? What vital component of your lifestyle is completely beyond your reach because of the big, bad Goons?

The truth of the matter is that is a total fallacy, a cop out invented as an easy scapegoat for those too lazy to go out and get stuff done by themselves.

Also, please stop trying to redefine things. Parasite means something that leeches off of another creature, and produces nothing in return.

The nullsec guys, that you say have all the market strangehold, are literally producing, and they are producing a hell of a lot.

So, I'll ask you this. Why is profit evil to you? Why does it qualify you as less than a human being?

So, I'll ask you this. Why is profit evil to you? Why does it qualify you as less than a human being?

Killing noobs is a fundamental part of this game.

BTW, the stove is lowsec.

So, if their sales go elsewhere? Fine.

People who want instant gratification and immunity to the actions of other players, should not play EVE.

Well you could argue in the terms of the video game publicly calling for someone to kill themselves in an open forum being broadcasted live on the internet is a parasitic thing, gaining enjoyment from the thought of someone else feeling bad outside of game due to your actions is psychopathic, and parasitic, sadistic indulgence is something the parasites like to promote in propaganda, such as movies, music, and video games.

Guess what? I enjoy ruining people's day in this game. I do it ALL THE TIME. It's funny.

And that's what this game is about.

Aaaaand there it is.

Hatin' on the Goons. And on EVE in general, it looks like.

So, he said "if you wanna make this guy kill himself...".

Boo. Freaking. Hoo.

If he had been sober enough to say "biomass" or "quit" instead, we'd not be having this discussion.

Guess what? I enjoy ruining people's day in this game. I do it ALL THE TIME. It's funny. And that's what this game is about. So you and your little pity party hurt feelings Kleenex brigade can go crawl back into your hole. My rights as a person and a player do not end where your feelings begin. Learn to separate a game from reality.

Not for me it isn't, no.



You don't have any kids, do you? If you do, God help them.




Instant gratification and immunity? That sounds very much like the kind of player who'd spend his game time capping noobs to me.

Clearly, one has never gatecamped.

Immunity to others? Yeah, like they can't shoot back.

And yes, I have children.

And if you don't think killing noobs is fun, you haven't tried it. Go out and gank somebody some time. It's quite fun.

Clearly, one has never gatecamped. Gatecamping is hardly instant gratification, you can go for hours without seeing anyone to shoot at. Immunity to others? Yeah, like they can't shoot back.

And yes, I have children. And yes, if they do something dumb that won't cause them permanent injury, I let them do it, and then tell them "didn't that suck? That's why we don't do things like that..."

Hilariously, they learn. She hasn't pulled the cat's tail in weeks after "Mr. Whiskers" decided he'd had enough.

And if you don't think killing noobs is fun, you haven't tried it. Go out and gank somebody some time. It's quite fun.

Yes I am hating on the goons, and eve.

I dislike psychopaths, which is why I play eve, so I can remove them from our gene pool.

And what, praytell, does that mean?

Also, if you cannot separate the game from reality, you are far more unbalanced than the people you claim to hate. They don't hate you. They look down on you, they pity you, and they condescend you, but they don't hate you. Of the two, I'd associate with them over you.

I have. It bored me to tears. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that, unless they've set up to catch a red or wardec target.

Unlikely. You wouldn't bother if the chances of winning were as low as 50/50.

I find that very hard to believe.

I think I targetted and shot at a miner in a belt during beta 6. I didn't carry it through because I felt like an ****hole. I bring my personality into the game. And so, it seems, do you.

Then how on earth could you tell me that gatecamping is instant gratification without lying through your teeth?

In which case, why am I not to be rewarded with a higher chance of success for being prepared, and picking my battles?

Yet again with the inability to separate the game from reality... Yeesh.

Also, if you cannot separate the game from reality, you are far more unbalanced than the people you claim to hate.

Because the reason I camp gates with gang is to catch reds. You only become a red if you've previously been a ****.



I didn't say you shouldn't be. You were the one asserting the other guy could shoot back. That's rarely the case with you people.



I realise the game isn't reality. But just because it isn't reality, it doesn't mean I have to come into it with a different personality.

Well, that's what the RP in MMORPG is, isn't it? Role Playing. Playing a different role. Which is quite fun.

Also, you did not answer all of my statements. Would you please inform me why you find it "very hard to believe" that I have children? I am rather interested in your response.

He can't separate fantasy from reality because he's not into roleplaying?

I think it'd be more interesting to puzzle over why you're compelled to be a psychopath in a game that does its best to approximate real-world social interaction.

The other guy can always shoot back. He can get a gang of folks, enter through a different pipe, and jump on them, particularly since you won't even have to look for them. If they fight, good. If they run, well hey! You just cleared the gatecamp.

Because it's just a game? That's like asking if people who play Mario games hate turtles and munch on shrooms in real life.

I'd love to know why pixels are worth getting so upset about.

Because it's just a game? That's like asking if people who play Mario games hate turtles and munch on shrooms in real life.

But why this game and why this persona? Mario, in stark contrast, is intentionally fanciful

Incidentally, I don't know who you think is upset or why.

I knew you'd come at me with that point. I also play Team Fortress, where I delight in mowing people down with my Rage Inducing Minigun.

Different game. Different possibilities. Different expectations. Different rules. Different behaviours.

Also, and this is most important: there are a whole stack of different servers you can choose. You're not stuck on the server that's always got the idiot who deliberately switches his teleport entrance and exit, just to **** off the team.

You really don't know who is upset? Maybe the guy posting Punisher jpgs and fantasizing about removing people he considers psychopaths because of in game actions from the gene pool?

I'd have to say that he is very mad, bro.

Why this game? Because this is one of the very few games that gives you that kind of freedom to play. You can do pretty much whatever you want in EVE, consequences aside, and in this universe murder is only slightly more illegal than double parking. That's how they set it up. I am playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Why is that a problem?

The problem is that people's expectations of EVE are wrong.

I dislike psychopaths, which is why I play eve, so I can remove them from our gene pool.

That's your personal value judgement. Like, you know, "I don't want to live in a Police State, so I hereby consent to the possibility of being violently attacked when I walk out of my front door" kind of value judgement. The point is I undock, so in theory I can be attacked, but I don't give my consent, no.

You really don't know who is upset? Maybe the guy posting Punisher jpgs and fantasizing about removing people he considers psychopaths because of in game actions from the gene pool?

I'd have to say that he is very mad, bro.

Why this game? Because this is one of the very few games that gives you that kind of freedom to play.

You can do pretty much whatever you want in EVE, consequences aside, and in this universe murder is only slightly more illegal than double parking. That's how they set it up. I am playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Why is that a problem?

You're playing the game wrong.

Whatever floats your boat; I read his posts very differently.

Nah, there are lots are sandboxes. Most have less realistic social interaction so the question remains, why do you value realism so much in your griefing?

This thread is about subtle modifications to, as you put it, how things are set up. Would you suddenly fault Eve for its sandbox nature if the rules didn't swing disproportionately in your favor?

This isn't about me. I know how to play the game. I've been doing it for 10 years. I rarely get caught in low sec or null and when I do, meh, I don't fly what I can't afford to lose so I don't really care. We're talking about noobs here.

Not really. A proper sandbox multiplayer is really starting to become a thing of the past. Anyway, how do I value realism in my griefing? If I kill someone in real life, their ghost doesn't stand up and pitch me a delicious convo full of whining. That only happens in a video game. Nothing realistic about that.

No. EVE's rules swing in the favor of the prepared, the knowledgeable, and the clever. They have no bias towards anyone. They have a bias against those who choose the play the game the wrong way, though. If you stick your head in the sandbox, you will find that people tend to cut it off when you're not looking.

most new players, also have the comon sense to not go into low security space until their ready, even if they dont have that comon sense they still should.

You don't kill people in Eve, you waste their time and resources; very analogous to real life. I have to agree with Victoria though, you get boring really quick. I guess you can't directly derive anything interesting about someone's psyche when they're nothing but defensive.

Then you have no problem with the OP's suggestions then? -

"Increase the Size of Low-sec gates so they are not as easily camped
Create a Jump timer where folks changing "sec" get a 30 second invulnerability timer to warp off, making camping inter-sec gates profitless."

These merely swing the burden of knowledge and cleverness onto the gate camper; specifically, they can't just sit on the obvious funnels without more advanced tactics.

You mistake defensiveness for attempting to get you to actually define a position. Both Victoria and yourself, and let's not forget the "remove from the gene pool" guy, have been all over the place. I'd love to define a discussion with proper context.

No, all of those are nonsense, and were just meant to start a flame war. The OP, unless you missed the last week or so of the forums, has been trolling almost every day with a new topic. That, or he is a seriously hardcore advocate for dumbass casuals.

The invulnerability one in particular is hilarious. The gate cloak already exists for that purpose.

Meta-defensive as well?



So to reiterate, you don't like these suggestions because they would make your experience harder?

No, I dislike those suggestions because they are laughable, and exist purely as attempts to troll the forums.

The invulnerability thing, already exists in the form of the gate cloak. It is a powerful defensive tool available to anyone and everyone. There are ways to specifically counter it, yes, but those require teamwork and specific fits.

But 30 sec of immunity is, while overlapping, on a whole order of magnitude higher than a gate cloak. 30 sec of immunity is tantamount to total and complete safety when not on autopilot. EVE is not about safety. The suggestion flies against the core design philosophy of the game.

It'd basically be like someone getting on and saying they should cut mining laser output by half. "Oh, well you're only complaining because it would make your life harder" applies equally well. Both are laughable suggestions, and equally unfeasible.

But 30 sec of immunity is, while overlapping, on a whole order of magnitude higher than a gate cloak. 30 sec of immunity is tantamount to total and complete safety when not on autopilot. EVE is not about safety. The suggestion flies against the core design philosophy of the game.

God you're whiny. "Ganking people with a safety window for warping off border gates too huuuuuurd!" Nevermind that you could smart-bomb them while they're landing, catch them in the next system, ect. ect. ect.

Incidentally, halving mining laser output would just double your disposable ship cost in the long run.

Let me be quite clear, low sec should be dangerous.

But let's face it, gates are pretty crappy. Gate camping is a snooze fest, Blind session changes are pretty crappy too. Too often Eve PVP resembles a surprise mugging. Might as well get an over buffed sniper rifle in some FPS and camp spawn points.

Water is wet, and the Sun rises in the East Rick Romero.

Also: --> Features & Ideas Discussion

You just asked me about total immunity for 30 seconds.

Then you told me that I could just smartbomb someone who has... total immunity.

Or go to the next system and try again through... total immunity.



What are you on?

Also, to paraphrase:

"fitting for travel through lowsec is too hard! Nerf gatecamps! I shouldn't have to be bothered to look before I leap!"

Same thing. Except the thing is, you are the one arguing against the status quo, so the onus is on you to provide a reason for change, not just pointlessly ridicule the opposing side with insults that apply equally as well, if not much better, to your own side.

Which is why too bad is the answer.

Do you have reading comprehension issues or are you just bad at Eve?

Show me a non-covops fit that will get you through a normal border camp. Show me a reliable indicator (other than an alt) to look at before jumping. I'm honestly fascinated by how deluded your supposedly superior Eve knowledge is.

I'm arguing against the status quo because everyone (except the border gate campers) agrees that border gate camps are lame and have no solo counter-play. I'm also arguing because your logic jumped out at me as farcically bad, but it's getting very tiresome battling an unarmed opponent. I don't know how you griefers do it all day.

Low-Security Space is VERY hostile towards new players.

Look at your map, are there more than five pilots in space in that low sec entry point if yes also check ships destroyed in the last hour if it is not a FW system and that number is also higher than 5 it might be a camp.

Go around, not very hard at most low sec borders.

Go ahead and tell me how you can manage to predict an angular entry to make sure you're in smartbomb range of someone warping in. And especially how the server's session change interruption can totally let you get more than one or two shots off. :P

DotLan.

Ah yeah, because you totally have data and playerbase surveys and stuff to back that statement up, right? I mean, if you were going to claim to represent the playerbase as a whole against the evil, horrible gankers, you'd actually make sure you were, instead of just going off of a vocal and incredibly whiny minority of players on the forums that only the vast minority of players actually use, right?

Yep, you go right ahead and declare victory and graciously bow out. Suits me fine.

if you disagree you must be a psycho who loves making people cry irl and kills kittens and hates everyone around them because no one loves them because they're so horrible.

DotLan is both an anti-gate-camp fit and tells you who's on the other side of a gate? Wow! learn something new everyday.

That's your concluding argument? That people like getting insta-popped w/o counter-play?

Your griefer tears are painful to watch; stop please.

But I refuse to answer a false dichotomy posed to me, especially one like "post a gatecamp proof fit or GTFO!".

Don't you get it yet, that there is no guarantee of safety in EVE? No, you will never be able to totally prevent them from killing you based on your ship, you can only improve your safety as a result of your actions.

Don't want to have to go to the trouble, in which case, entitlement mentality, and you don't deserve it.

Can't actually get your head around them, in which case, nothing should be balanced around the lowest common denominator of intelligence.

Or you just don't want to listen, in which case, why should your ego get to dictate anyone else's gameplay?

The other guys at my work are laughing themselves silly. So by all means, let's continue.

No one suggested a safety guarantee. They suggested making your job harder and the new player's job easier.

Ah, so no one suggested a safety guarantee? So the "30 sec of total immunity" in the OP was what? Sarcasm?

To hell with the new player. Life is easier than ever before for new players,

Do you not understand that immunity from your particular braindead tactic is not a safety guarantee? Oh, I forgot: smartbombs, bubbles, scouts, and chasing are all too huuuurd.

Thinks you can use bubbles in lowsec. Suggests that chasing is viable.

Argues about PvP like he has a clue.

Show me a non-covops fit that will get you through a normal border camp. Show me a reliable indicator (other than an alt) to look at before jumping. I'm honestly fascinated by how deluded your supposedly superior Eve knowledge is.

I'm arguing against the status quo because everyone (except the border gate campers) agrees that border gate camps are lame and have no solo counter-play. I'm also arguing because your logic jumped out at me as farcically bad, but it's getting very tiresome battling an unarmed opponent. I don't know how you griefers do it all day.

You do know that hisec borders null in places right? Besides, you literally said bubbles were too hard to be considered: "Bubbles and grid-fu aside(and if you can pull those tricks off, you deserve that killmail)"



Agues about PVP like hisec ganking and gate camps are PVP.

See, now we've gotten to the core of your problem. You have the wrong expectations of the game. Ganking is PVP. It's not some asinine honorable duel, if that's what you mean. It's not rolling around asking in local "LF 1v1s!". You do not get a fair fight. Tough luck.

I didn't say they were too hard to be considered. I said, if you are advanced enough to pull off such a thing, then you deserve to get the kill on your foe. It's a good trick.

The Problem:
Far too many "little of everything" ships piloted by EVE's most valuable sort of player "The Brave Newcomer" are destroyed in low-sec on a daily basis.

I wasn't aware I had a problem. I do expect CCP to continue balancing their mechanics around interesting and emergent encounters as it makes the game more fun and makes them more money.

Here's hoping you rage quit if they ever take your newbie camping bottle away.

I wasn't aware I had a problem. I do expect CCP to continue balancing their mechanics around interesting and emergent encounters as it makes the game more fun and makes them more money.

Here's hoping you rage quit if they ever take your newbie camping bottle away.

for the record i one time blew up a nub in a badger 1 in lowsec running transport mission. Others were running cap parts so couldn't let him go. I gave him 10x ship and mission value. That's pretty nub friendly imho. everyone else fair game...

The problem is universal: it's the PvP concept in itself.

People PvP to simply gank. It's the mindset of mouthbreathers.

Whenever on game forums someone mentions EvE, I make it a point to mention this. Think of WoW with level 90s preying on level 30s and believing they all have level 90s to come back to PvP. They don't care if it was truly a new player, they do it because it's easy kills. So games like EvE isn't truly about welcoming new players, because if new players got their breaks, there's less ganking (and scamming and worse -- surprised CCP frowns about can flipping and terrorist bombing, when wholesale thieving is allowed by policy. How can one be cruel to new players, while the "white collar" crime is not? Picking and chosing morals?). Then the guys who are thrown into lockers in real life need some "revenge" will go ape, because they can't dish out payback via pixels.

So when folks look back and wonder why their game has 500,000 players (including all the multiple accounts), and still puzzled why it's 500,000 players that need to even multibox at gatecamps to be "kewl", they still haven't learned that killing the young kills having players left over for the next generation. With PC gaming slipping more each year and these older MMOs aren't porting their games for consoles, it's a slow drip death sentence.

CCP is more welcoming in keeping it's veteran PC gamers with IsBox, than alluring players for the first time to enjoy the franchise for a lifetime (it's how Blizzard is #1, they make sure to get every new player and make it enjoyable to stay for years).

Mouthbreathers don't look at the future, they live for the moment. The result is the mess that is masqueraded as "PvP".

The Problem:
#3 Entering low-sec is very difficult
This leads us to two paths
Increase the Size of Low-sec gates so they are not as easily camped
Create a Jump timer where folks changing "sec" get a 30 second invulnerability timer to warp off, making camping inter-sec gates profitless.

The Problem:
Far too many "little of everything" ships piloted by EVE's most valuable sort of player "The Brave Newcomer" are destroyed in low-sec on a daily basis.

How many are being killed?

What would be the right number (ie: not too many)?

How many are being killed?

What would be the right number (ie: not too many)?

Oh please, do tell exactly why a Noob, who has contributed virtually nothing to EVE Online, is a more valuable player than me.

I'm dying to hear it.

The Problem:
"The Brave Newcomer" are destroyed in low-sec on a daily basis....
....
...I hope we can get some constructive comments that will improve low-security space for new players as well as our valued veterans.
.

I actually wanted to look this up.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/

On the right hand side there is the Top 5 systems of ship and pod kills in the last 3 hours. If you click the little graphic at the upper right corner of that area, it takes you to the detailed stats page.

All of the most violent regions in the last 24 hours are either:

Adjacent to Fountain, so the war spilled over.

Faction Warfare zones.

Or is the Jita/Hek lowsec pipeline. (these are the only ones that can be counted for our purposes)

So apparently, 423 ships and 162 pods per day is what constitutes this apparent apocalypse of gatecamp ganks.

Idk how we would want to extrapolate how many of them are new players, but the numbers aren't looking good for the "gatecamps make all teh newbies quit!" crowd.

Water is wet, and the Sun rises in the East Rick Romero.

Also: --> Features & Ideas Discussion

Ignoring the fact that your lashing out at yet another fictional argument

this is pretty much the definition of pulling a number out of your ass.

Dump the kill data and cross-reference by system/character info with some population figures for context if you're going to do it. **** ain't hard.

First you compared Wow to Eve which was a fallacy in and of itself.

Also People PvP for many different reasons.

Blizzard is learning this in spades currently

*looks at the title of the thread*

Seeing as you have repeatedly displayed the reading capacity of a child, I will go ahead and spell it out for you. My numbers were:

This.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Tama/kills

Plus this:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Hagilur/kills

The only 2 of the 10 highest kill numbers among lowsec systems that isn't FW or Goons vs TEST. So the only 2 that count, precisely as I said. Keep your libel to a minimum please.

The Problem:
Far too many "little of everything" ships piloted by EVE's most valuable sort of player "The Brave Newcomer" are destroyed in low-sec on a daily basis.

A little of everything?
Yep, The list includes:
Mining Laser
Combat Laser
Missile Launcher
Probe Launcher
Shield Extenders
Small armor Repairer
Salvage Drones

So what to do about it?

#1 The content is far too severe for these type of ships to be competitive.
This leads us to two paths:
Fix the ships
Fix the Content

#2 The competition is fairly extreme as advanced players with skill points in excess of 25 to 30 million SP are competing for the exact same resources.
This leads us to two paths:
Increase the density of content
Create more low-security systems.

#3 Entering low-sec is very difficult
This leads us to two paths
Increase the Size of Low-sec gates so they are not as easily camped
Create a Jump timer where folks changing "sec" get a 30 second invulnerability timer to warp off, making camping inter-sec gates profitless.

Flame Retardant:
#1 I realize that some of the problems are related to "lack of knowledge" and that is partially responsible for bad fits.

#2 I am aware this is supposed to be a multi-player game, but when there is not enough content to go around it gets boring.

#3 I am not trying to kill pirates as a profession there are lots of gates that connect low to low, null to null that can be camped effectively. As a matter of fact if the transition gates were protected you'd have lots more people in the low-sec systems to kill.

The Sendoff:
Thanks for reading, I hope we can get some constructive comments that will improve low-security space for new players as well as our valued veterans.

Look, i know that EVE is a little harder compared to nowadays consoloid "AAA" games, where you can solo kill 20 Russian spetsnaz soldiers with a knife or where auto healing is considered as a feature and not as cheat. But EVE is popular even 10 years later, because it is considered as "good old days" game. Hard and with learning curve from hell.

My first venture into lowsec was with minimum skills and no combat experience outside the tutorial, the tutorial from 2 years ago. i hopped in a fleet with my brand new harbinger which was the most expensive asset i owned, got in a fleet with 4 other guys from the same mining corp i was, and went to lowsec.

you know what happened? we died in a fire.

you know how?

2 carriers dropped on us trying to save a faction fit pvp-vindicator they were using as bait.

we all died but so did their vindicator, and the only person who was all sulky and amd about that fight? the vindi pilot who kept insisting lag and poor mechanics made him die, instead of the 2 carriers who forgot to rep him and the fact he was usisng a faction fit vindi in the first place.



so in other words, lowsec is NOT "too hostile" to new players, new players just have to be prepared with a new mindset and realize, no they CANT compete 1 on 1, so they need to make friends and go as a group.


honestly its a concept that works anywhere in EVE.

You just asked me about total immunity for 30 seconds.

Then you told me that I could just smartbomb someone who has... total immunity.

Or go to the next system and try again through... Total immunity.

Yeah, it has to be because ganking has been going on the same as it has been since PvP realms were invented.

BTW the newbs that dont die that make isk from rats and sites make A LOT of isk compared to their high sec scardy bear freinds.

dont concentrate on the fools that die, there are plenty that dont or at least when they do they have paid for their loss many times over.

No, it's called CRZ.

It's the one-world concept seen in EvE. In a game where realms have their own culture. CRZ may address the issue of seeing the world more lived in, but it ruined the community feel which is an important part of WoW.

When CRZ was introduced, TBC areas became a literal gank-fest. The culture from XYZ realm doesn't apply to ABC realm, and the results weren't pretty. Where PvPers would gather outside their faction home cities or even Goldshire, now are but abandoned as what was a hangout for a server community, no longer has an identity. It's like Jita overnight becomes Rens, and just as dead.

If the players aren't having fun in what they're doing they leave. Case in point is the retention of players in EvE. Many leave because of it's no-rules bared mentality. Most people won't pay to be abused, and go play a game where their $15+/mon is more worthwhile. The result is, I hope you love IsBox, as that's what is doing the camping and harvesting now (might as well play an offline solo game).

You need to read the OP again. The suggestion was immunity ONLY for hisec/losec transition gates. The next tier of gates, losec-to-losec, would be campable.

An alternative to this, which would have the same result, would be to simply increase the number of hise-losec Gates, as I think the point of the suggestion was to try to spread out the pool of entry points/campspots.

BTW the newbs that dont die that make isk from rats and sites make A LOT of isk compared to their high sec scardy bear freinds.

dont concentrate on the fools that die, there are plenty that dont or at least when they do they have paid for their loss many times over.

But what's the point of the suggestion? The inevitable consequence is that people get a single jump into lo-sec and... then what? what good will it do them to be there if their CTRL-Acat ships are still laughably ill equipped to do anything. Should they just sit in the gate grid and gaze in wonder at the unparalleled splendour of lo-sec, while remaining unable to actually do anything? Oh wait I have an even more amazing idea! Let's extend this invulnerability. Just a little, you understand, no more than a camels's nose...

If people want to go into lo-sec, then they need to be equipped to either fight or evade fights, or be prepared to lose their ship. Evading fights in lo-sec is laughably easy. Getting into lo-sec is a matter of trivial concern - only a very small number of lo-sec gates are routinely camped. Travelling through lo-sec is typically a matter of going from one empty or nearly empty system to another.

There are two ways to gain this knowledge and expertise: the easy way and the hard way. I see no good reason to change the way the game works to give a useless accomodation to people who insist on trying to learn to open doors by smashing their face into them.

Idk where you were, but my server was a literal gank fest before CRZ, and not much changed.

The only people upset about that are the Johnny-come-lately's, and as I have stated numerous times, I don't care what noobs think. TBC was like that in PVP realms when it first came out. Only once Wrath started catering to the casuals did it really slack off.

Most people won't pay to be abused? A few hundred thousand sure seem like they will.

Your argument really boils down to "make life easier or I'll quit and so will everyone else like me!", which observably is far from true.

Besides, I already gave out the numbers for all of this ganking and abuse

I love threads like this.
Someone comes up with some possible ideas to get MORE people into LOW/NULL space which involves changing how the LOW/NULL community (for want of a better term for them that wont get filtered) are able to kill anything that enters the system and the Sky starts Falling.

Oh please, do tell exactly why a Noob, who has contributed virtually nothing to EVE Online, is a more valuable player than me.

I'm dying to hear it.

Lots of stuff about WoW

Ok here's an idea to get more people into lo-sec: remove all level 2-4 missions from hi-sec, increase transaction taxes to 25% and have faction standings fall by 1% per day spent in hi-sec. Bam! Everyone will move into lo-sec before their trial ends!

I don't want to hear any whines about THE SKY IS FALLING if my awesome idea of massive sweeping change that is implemented that can't possibly have any negative consequences in an extremely diverse and complex game. Since I haven't spent any time thinking about those consequences, obviously they can't exist.

Next up: more ill-considered proposals about areas of the game that I hardly know anything about!

I love threads like this.
Someone comes up with some possible ideas to get MORE people into LOW/NULL space which involves changing how the LOW/NULL community (for want of a better term for them that wont get filtered) are able to kill anything that enters the system and the Sky starts Falling.

Rest of WoW are medium population and each realm has their unique culture -- Moon Guard anyone?

heck, no one can claim that raiding was harder in TBC, as the mechanics now in raids have gotten to be outrageous (it's dexterity based now).

Few hundred thousand play the game for a lot more than PvP. I sure didn't start EvE due to PvP (for that I could get in WoW and Battlefield in spades). So busy in promoting PvP, CCP loses by not promoting the crown jewel in EvE -- it's market and crafting. PvP is a dime a dozen in all these MMOs, EvE's market and crafting hasn't been seen since maybe SWG.

Don't care about what numbers you pull from a hat, unless it comes from CCP and it's tracking. Otherwise, it's just chewing chaw.