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Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.06.27 05:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
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Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
1005
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Posted - 2013.06.27 05:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I see someone wants a spike in RMT ISK prices...
And no, as CCP would loose ALOT of subscribers as a result of your stupid as "George Bush" idea. I'm not entirely clear on the point of this, but I do have a sudden urge to jump in a catalyst and blow up a miner. Twitter! - @AzamiNevinyrall I'm half expecting a ban for this post. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
246
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Posted - 2013.06.27 05:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
I will never understand people who think like this. I pay my Eve sub with real money. Why? Time efficiency. Even if I enjoyed Eve's PVE (which I do not), it would make more sense to just pay my sub with cash rather than PLEX. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) without either a massive investment, or serious risk involved. Just because I pay my sub with cash, doesn't mean that I contribute anything more than a person who PLEXes their account. In fact, I probably contribute less, because they are having to perform in game actions to keep their subs rolling, whereas I am not. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
282
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Posted - 2013.06.27 05:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
The way things are now, if PLEX didn't exist, I doubt EvE would have more than 200k subs. A lot of that 500k are extra accounts (as it took more than 1 account to raise another toon until this expansion). Only way to pay for that with kids is to PLEX for "free" game time.
I sub, as it's a better way to budget (set price a month). Ironically, it's due to that set price that allows having more than 1 account. F2P model and all the nickel and diming is how it stays afloat, but devs can't budget like that. Which is also why I believe Blizzard continues on the subscription model for WoW, as it's a consistent cashflow to budget with each month.
Micro pay model is what kids enjoy, but in reality there's no free lunch. Any F2P scheme out there is paid for by other means (CCP does the "free" expansions and all by PLEX and time-code sales). They're just deferring the cost onto others paying for it (leeches). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3739
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Posted - 2013.06.27 05:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I will never understand people who think like this. I pay my Eve sub with real money. Why? Time efficiency. Even if I enjoyed Eve's PVE (which I do not), it would make more sense to just pay my sub with cash rather than PLEX. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) without either a massive investment, or serious risk involved. Just because I pay my sub with cash, doesn't mean that I contribute anything more than a person who PLEXes their account. In fact, I probably contribute less, because they are having to perform in game actions to keep their subs rolling, whereas I am not. So, having established that is is better to work and pay sub than grind for sub time:
do you also grind isk for your ships? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
TEST Defence, Please Ignore |
Bloody Wench
594
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Posted - 2013.06.27 06:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Account Payment History.
PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid Plex1 x 1 Month EVE Subscription 1 PLEXPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid FreeCCPBuddy program free days 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid FreeCCPFree Hours Give Hours for Plex 4Paid Plex1 x 1 Month EVE Subscription 1 PLEXPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid 1 x Holiday present 2011: Neural Surgery FreePaid 1 x Christmas Present Eve 60 Day Trial FreePaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexNew Payment for 1 Month EVE Subscription 1 PLEXPaid PlexNew Payment for 1 Month EVE Subscription 1 PLEXPaid PlexNew Payment for 1 Month EVE Subscription 1 PLEXPaid Buddy invite activation 30 free days added. FreePaid PlexPilot license activation (from web) 30 DaysPaid EVE 5 free days FreePaid PlexPilot license activation (from web) 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation (from web) 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation (from web) 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid PlexPilot license activation 30 DaysPaid EVE 5 free days FreePaid CreditCardRecurring Payment for 3 Month EVE Subscription $38.85 Paid CreditCardReactivate Eve-Online Account:$38.85Paid CreditCard1M EVE Subscription $14.95Paid CreditCard1M EVE Subscription $14.95Paid GameTimeCodeD69BKK4A96TENYJF 30 DaysPaid CreditCard1M EVE Subscription $14.95Paid CreditCard1M EVE Subscription + Signup fee $19.95Paid
Suckitnewb. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
373
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Posted - 2013.06.27 06:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
credit card all accounts i don't log online to work http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
1
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Posted - 2013.06.27 06:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
PLEX is a great option and is going nowhere. The key point being missed is that all PLEX are paid for with real money. Once bought that PLEX can be used for game time, AUR, training a second character or traded with another player for ISK.
CCP still get the money, RMT takes a kick in the guts and we have more players in the game. I fail to see an issue.
Personally I play the game way more since I switched to PLEX. More active players should have a voice regardless whose dollars went to CCP. |
Bloody Wench
595
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Posted - 2013.06.27 06:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Telemicus Thrace wrote:PLEX is a great option and is going nowhere. The key point being missed is that all PLEX are paid for with real money. Once bought that PLEX can be used for game time, AUR, training a second character or traded with another player for ISK.
CCP still get the money, RMT takes a kick in the guts and we have more players in the game. I fail to see an issue.
Personally I play the game way more since I switched to PLEX. More active players should have a voice regardless whose dollars went to CCP.
You bring up a good point.
I'm active because I have to be if I want to continue to sub. Out there doing 'stuff'. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
246
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 06:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I will never understand people who think like this. I pay my Eve sub with real money. Why? Time efficiency. Even if I enjoyed Eve's PVE (which I do not), it would make more sense to just pay my sub with cash rather than PLEX. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) without either a massive investment, or serious risk involved. Just because I pay my sub with cash, doesn't mean that I contribute anything more than a person who PLEXes their account. In fact, I probably contribute less, because they are having to perform in game actions to keep their subs rolling, whereas I am not. So, having established that is is better to work and pay sub than grind for sub time: do you also grind isk for your ships? I'm in faction warfare. The pvp practically pays for itself, assuming you don't lose shiny ships on a constant basis. But to answer your question a bit more directly, no, not anymore. I did my time in missions, saved up a couple of billion, realized I hated the pve, and never really looked back. If I need the ISK that bad, I can have a few bil again at the low cost of a few hours at work irl. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10383
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Posted - 2013.06.27 06:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: grrr I'm spacepoor
1 Kings 12:11
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
945
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Posted - 2013.06.27 06:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
so, you mean that, besides the trial accounts, there are subs out there that are free? how in the nine hells they do that? credit card fraud? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
3
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Posted - 2013.06.27 06:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:
You bring up a good point.
I'm active because I have to be if I want to continue to sub. Out there doing 'stuff'.
Indeed, and when that stuff includes research, mining, production or anything that puts stuff into the economy it drives supply up and prices down. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
246
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 06:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Franco Stein wrote: grrr I'm irlpoor
Fixed that for you. They're usually the only ones who whine about "pay to win" in any form. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
8728
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder, not only those that will stop playing, but also you won't have all the lolmails of some pilot moving 36 PLEXes in a Kestrel... why you want us to be sad?
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RaTTuS
BIG Insidious Empire
288
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
it's not free to play - someone always pays it removes some RMT styles http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://imgur.com/nuBlxbC |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
391
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Malcanis wrote:Franco Stein wrote: grrr I'm irlpoor
Fixed that for you. They're usually the only ones who whine about "pay to win" in any form. Pay to win is crap and if you blow tons of cash in pay 2 win games, the only thing that you have over a poor person is that you're a sucker and you have no idea what your money is worth.
That said, plex are not pay to win and they actually have the opposite effect of pay to win games, as it pretty much enables people with tighter budgets to play indefinitely for less or no money. |
Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
1182
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
OP logic: If people say things I don't like, it means they sub their accounts with PLEX. Therefore, PLEX must be removed to improve PVP. Oh god. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
248
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Malcanis wrote:Franco Stein wrote: grrr I'm irlpoor
Fixed that for you. They're usually the only ones who whine about "pay to win" in any form. Pay to win is crap and if you blow tons of cash in pay 2 win games, the only thing that you have over a poor person is that you're a sucker and you have no idea what your money is worth. That said, plex are not pay to win and they actually have the opposite effect of pay to win games, as it pretty much enables people with tighter budgets to play indefinitely for less or no money. To address your first point: money is worth no more than what anyone believes it is. It has no intrinsic value at all. The dollar is worth no more than ISK to the right (wrong?) person.
To address your second: it goes both ways, unless of course someone is buying PLEX from CCP then handing it out to players for free. The person who bought it still gets the ISK for it. While I don't view it as pay to win (more like pay to avoid ****** pve) some would argue otherwise. |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
391
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Proletariat Tingtango wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Malcanis wrote:Franco Stein wrote: grrr I'm irlpoor
Fixed that for you. They're usually the only ones who whine about "pay to win" in any form. Pay to win is crap and if you blow tons of cash in pay 2 win games, the only thing that you have over a poor person is that you're a sucker and you have no idea what your money is worth. That said, plex are not pay to win and they actually have the opposite effect of pay to win games, as it pretty much enables people with tighter budgets to play indefinitely for less or no money. To address your first point: money is worth no more than what anyone believes it is. It has no intrinsic value at all. The dollar is worth no more than ISK to the right (wrong?) person. To address your second: it goes both ways, unless of course someone is buying PLEX from CCP then handing it out to players for free. The person who bought it still gets the ISK for it. While I don't view it as pay to win (more like pay to avoid ****** pve) some would argue otherwise.
You don't have to pve to buy plex. The largest sums of isk i've ever acquired were not shooting red boxes in anomalies, but bilking idiots of money. I do both, but you can still play for plex and never once ever shoot A Rat. |
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smokess
The Scope Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
Your thought process is nonsensical.
1. CCP makes more money from PLEX purchasers than they do from regular subscription fees.
2. How does someone paying for PLEX with ISK affect 'the sandbox'? Paying for ISK by buying PLEX maybe.
3. How would people paying for the game 'out of pocket' make PvP and PvE better?
4. 'Entrenched player base that pays nothing' means nothing. CCP don't seed PLEX onto the market unless special circumstances occur within which they need to stabilise the prices of them. All PLEX you see in Jita, Rens, Dodixie - anywhere for that matter - have been bought by a player and CCP have received revenue from them.
Now **** off. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
248
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
You don't have to pve to buy plex. The largest sums of isk i've ever acquired were not shooting red boxes in anomalies, but bilking idiots of money. I do both, but you can still play for plex and never once ever shoot A Rat.
Very good point. Market and contract pvp is still pvp. When I say pve though, I am not just talking about ratting, I mean all of it. To me, mining and industry are right up there with shooting rats in my list of "I'd rather slam my fingers in a door than do these things". |
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
Ah suggeest y'all geet whale the geet'ns gud
Dont luke lak this here gaymes fer you, pilgrim |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
1239
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
there is no free to play , somebody paid with Real money for that plex and the person paying with a plex jusr is rewarded for being a online a long time I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
672
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
Posting in a Stealth "How to kill the game in one easy step" thread.
I too am excited about trading playability for more lag and shiny pictures.....:( Petition for a Minimum bounty of 10 mil. Prevent useless bounties!
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
284
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder
Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. And damn if I'm going to slave in a game to pay for it.
CCP may prefer a roller coaster revenue stream, but just look what content it delivers. Meanwhile over at WoW, they're churning out new content in 90 day cycles now.
Yeah, a consistent revenue stream has it's merits. $14.95 isn't really that expensive, considering that is the price for 1 movie outing a month (or a meal at a mid level restaurant...even poor college students could afford it). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
248
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. And damn if I'm going to slave in a game to pay for it. CCP may prefer a roller coaster revenue stream, but just look what content it delivers. Meanwhile over at WoW, they're churning out new content in 90 day cycles now. Yeah, a consistent revenue stream has it's merits. $14.95 isn't really that expensive, considering that is the price for 1 movie outing a month (or a meal at a mid level restaurant...even poor college students could afford it). ActiBlizz also has a revenue stream that crosses damn near every game genre in existence. The same cannot be said for CCP. Even they are prone to some rough **** every once in a while.
You know what CCP does when they want to produce a spike in revenue while simultaneously easing up the in game market? PLEX sales. Offer ten PLEX for $120 (or whatever it is), and every nerd is ready to come out of pocket pretty quick. Well, except for the poor people, but they don't count anyway. |
Deano McCandless
The McCandless Clan
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 08:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:[Meanwhile over at WoW, they're churning out new content in 90 day cycles now..
Churn. Good choice of words, handsome. Its not really new content though is it? Its the exact same thing with different sprites and a higher difficulty curve.
You can be anything you want to be Just turn yourself into anything you think that you could ever be Be free with your tempo, be free, be free Surrender your ego - be free, be free to yourself |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
8729
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. So this means that you don't somewhere down there enjoy reading about someone who didn't think it through and moved 36 PLEXes in a frigate on a busy Jita day?
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AndromacheDarkstar
Red Dawn Mercenaries
772
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 08:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ive got a reasonably large amount of isk now, enough to last me for a long time and yet i still pay for the sub. The reason i pay is that this game is my hobby, i have disposable income and a lack of play time and therefore id rather have the isk to buy ships. I have also in the past bought a fair few plex for the same reasons and sold them onto characters who will use that for their game time.
I dont have problem with that because it allows more people to play and the more people playing the better, i aslo understand that not everyone is like me. I simply dont have the time or inclination to grind isk to pay in plex. But there is simply no argument you could come up with that would convince me that plex is a bad system.
Mercs For Hire. |
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AndromacheDarkstar
Red Dawn Mercenaries
772
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 08:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ill add that if you find the PVP and PVE worthless and boring then this may not be the right game for you. The exits over there, i hope the door hits you on the way out Mercs For Hire. |
destiny2
Abh Academy Abh Alliance
146
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:14:00 -
[32] - Quote
players that buy plex for that nice shiney ship are the ones putting them on the market.
Scenario 1
Poster gets plexes to be removed.
Scenario 2
Poster Wants a titan the realizes **** grinding, with even 5 toons is still hard to grind isk for a titan then realizes oh i wish i could buy some plexes too.
Scenario 3.
Poster is eathier someone who is to stupid to actually realise what a contract actually says and got scammed.
I'm gonna go with all of the above. Obviously he read a contract wrong and got scammed |
Max Godsnottlingson
Bitter Veterans
141
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
Well, if th egame is that bad, the door is over there. Don't let it hit you on the ass as it closes behind you
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Lexmana
1017
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
PLEX was a brilliant idea by CCP. It means they can avoid crappy F2P mechanics that doesn't suit a game like EVE and keep the subscription model while fighting RMT at the same time. If you have a better idea than PLEX, please enlighten us. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
If you think this game is junk, why are you still here?
People do pay one way or another, if it be by currency or helping keep the numbers up in-game.
All active accounts are paid for, the only thing is that if you use isk to buy PLEX and use that PLEX to extend game time someone else has paid for your account via an in-game trade. This of course depends upon how you look at it, do you consider that the account has been paid for at the time someone buys the PLEX from CCP or do you consider the account is paid for at time of use of the PLEX where you could then argue that you've paid for that account yourself using isk.
But either way all active accounts are paid for. |
Intar Medris
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
83
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Posted - 2013.06.27 09:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
Suck my **** newb. I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 09:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. So this means that you don't somewhere down there enjoy reading about someone who didn't think it through and moved 36 PLEXes in a frigate on a busy Jita day?
No, as I don't approve of thieving. Never did. Never will.
I play noble knights in shining armor, not rogues who like doing it from behind like cowards.
And yes, that's in EvE, too. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
8729
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Posted - 2013.06.27 09:35:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. So this means that you don't somewhere down there enjoy reading about someone who didn't think it through and moved 36 PLEXes in a frigate on a busy Jita day? No, as I don't approve of thieving. Never did. Never will. I play noble knights in shining armor, not rogues who like doing it from behind like cowards. And yes, that's in EvE, too. Who said anything about stealing? I was merely pointing to maybe not thought through decisions be it moving PLEX in a Frig or announcing doing so first hand. Had nothing to do with knighting. But good for you then.
I change my statement to everyone minus some pilots.
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ACE McFACE
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve
1370
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Posted - 2013.06.27 09:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I will never understand people who think like this. I pay my Eve sub with real money. Why? Time efficiency. Even if I enjoyed Eve's PVE (which I do not), it would make more sense to just pay my sub with cash rather than PLEX. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) without either a massive investment, or serious risk involved. Just because I pay my sub with cash, doesn't mean that I contribute anything more than a person who PLEXes their account. In fact, I probably contribute less, because they are having to perform in game actions to keep their subs rolling, whereas I am not. So, having established that is is better to work and pay sub than grind for sub time: do you also grind isk for your ships? Thats different. For example, I'm willing to pay real money for the privilege to play Internet Spaceships Swimming in Mollases Simulator 2013(tm). But I am not willing to pay real money for the spaceships themselves, it kind of takes away from half the experience of EVE. Even if that half is a bit dull. You should be notified if someone quotes your post so you can continue the argument! |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
284
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Posted - 2013.06.27 09:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Who said anything about stealing? I was merely pointing to maybe not thought through decisions be it moving PLEX in a Frig or announcing doing so first hand. Had nothing to do with knighting. But good for you then.
I change my statement to everyone minus some pilots.
It's implied as who would rub their hands together and yell, "NICE!!!" at that idea?
If you're moral enough you'll consider it not something to steal and give it back even.
But thanks for putting a conditional in there, as people in even EvE can be moral/ethical (no game changes that compass to me...I'm the straightest shooter you'll ever see). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
|
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
460
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 10:04:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:
But thanks for putting a conditional in there, as people in even EvE can be moral/ethical (no game changes that compass to me...I'm the straightest shooter you'll ever see).
I am inclined to disbelieve this
Tell The Others |
Solaris Ecladia
High Flyers Ex Cinere Scriptor
83
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 11:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
If i had to pay money for this game i wouldnt play. Too IRL poor. But have no fear, I will keep plexxing my account like I have been doing the past 2 years. |
Bloody Wench
598
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:02:00 -
[43] - Quote
Dear OP,
If Chribba is in opposition to your idea, then you're wrong.
That is all.
Support a High Resolution Texture Pack |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:
But thanks for putting a conditional in there, as people in even EvE can be moral/ethical (no game changes that compass to me...I'm the straightest shooter you'll ever see).
I am inclined to disbelieve this
Disbelieve all you want dear. If anything no one had doubted about me is, I'm honest to a fault...and will say exactly what I mean unvarnished. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
464
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:
But thanks for putting a conditional in there, as people in even EvE can be moral/ethical (no game changes that compass to me...I'm the straightest shooter you'll ever see).
I am inclined to disbelieve this Disbelieve all you want dear. If anything no one had doubted about me is, I'm honest to a fault...and will say exactly what I mean unvarnished.
You must be fascinating to listen to at parties
Tell The Others |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
316
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute....
...and more people to RMT isk from you for a higher price? |
Bischopt
Arbitrary Repossession
111
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
Surely someone has already said this but I'm too lazy to read through the whole thread:
PLEX is not free-to-play. When you buy a plex with isk and use it, it just means somebody else has paid for your subscription. It's really that simple. |
Q 5
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
76
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. So this means that you don't somewhere down there enjoy reading about someone who didn't think it through and moved 36 PLEXes in a frigate on a busy Jita day?
Come on Chribba you want me to believe that someone is dum b enough to move plex in a squishy ship and there are players that just sit for hours scanning departing ships out of 4/4...humph I don't believe you |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
345
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 13:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
10/10, OP, your troll even got Chribba to reply to your nonsense |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1649
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 13:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:Dear OP,
If Chribba is in opposition to your idea, then you're wrong.
That is all.
The Chribba has spoken and delivered his judgement in Veldspar. The OP has been found wanting by the Lord of the Veldspar and shall now be cursed for all of his days.
Ban Thread, Close OP. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
|
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1649
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 13:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:
But thanks for putting a conditional in there, as people in even EvE can be moral/ethical (no game changes that compass to me...I'm the straightest shooter you'll ever see).
I am inclined to disbelieve this Disbelieve all you want dear. If anything no one had doubted about me is, I'm honest to a fault...and will say exactly what I mean unvarnished. You must be fascinating to listen to at parties
Like Yanni. Absolutely fascinating. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
160
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
not sure if troll or just stupid. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
Trolls are just defending a F2P and a P2W scam.
PLEX is such the Pay to Win model it's sick.
Here's your game options for Players.
1) I don't want to earn my merits in the in game grind, so I throw down RL cash to buy my shinny..... how is this not P2W? I am a fake player who is not a gamer, just a "want to be" hero in a game that is "forced" to offer this option due to the fact that the option 2 players even exist.... This is FAKE GAMING.
2) I don't have RL cash (or just don't want to pay for stuff, cause I am a suck), so I grind or scam the above guy to make fake cash to play this game for Free and just take up server space. I make ten times more noise in the forums and in game, then people who pay the $140. buck a year to sub (Option 3 player). I troll any thread who speaks the truth!
3) I love the game and want to see new exciting content come out. I realize that there is NO OTHER Space game MMO and so I invest in this one by paying each and every month that I play it. I know it's a game and find value in my own personal efforts in game to advance my character, otherwise I know I'm just fooling myself into thinking I am great. I hate when a player can just pay real money to buy the SAME exact thing that I had to earn in game (Characters, Ships, etc). I game because I feel that I HAVE PERSONALLY achieved something. I support the company who makes the game I play "personally" with MY OWN MONEY (not some rookies) because I want to keep enjoying it and they deserve my support.
If you all are too stupid to see that this game model is a scam and actually killing the fun in it, you are so dead wrong. WTF is a game anyway? You leaches force the publishers to do it, and that's wrong. Sure they may be making money due to the VEGAS like odds in here, but it puts the game in a trash category.
1) How is PVP fun in this game for regular sub players? It's ridiculous! It costs you either countless hours of grinding or RL cash to even play against another F2P or P2W player and compete. Not only that, the odds of winning are so stacked to the side of the those two player type entrenched player base that force new players to bail or join the ridiculous. PVP means Player VS Player, if you don't know the term! This game has NO SUCH gaming option. It's player against entrenched players!!!
2) PVE has old content that is the same exact missions over and over. Other games have as many as thousands of missions to play. Why does this game have no real new content? Because they don't have to! The P2W and F2P player base sees to that! They create a PERFECT little game scam.
Get you head out and fix this...... you can do it by NOT BUYING PLEX!!!!!! |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
473
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:22:00 -
[54] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Trolls are just defending a F2P and a P2W scam.
PLEX is such the Pay to Win model it's sick.
You seem to be one of these people who call those who disagree with you "trolls" when they defend their point of view
You also seem to measure your EvE success in terms of Isk
What a curiously primitive viewpoint
Tell The Others |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
6740
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like
sorry, this thread is just full of potato. You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |
Elliavir
Kid's Logistics Inc League of Infamy
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
PLEX was a brilliant idea by CCP. It means they can avoid crappy F2P mechanics that doesn't suit a game like EVE and keep the subscription model while fighting RMT at the same time. If you have a better idea than PLEX, please enlighten us.
I second the "PLEX was a brilliant idea" comment. And I subscribe.
It adds so much flexibility to the game - that's a whole different thread though (101 Uses for PLEX!). One of the most underappreciated things about it is, I think, that it provides a steady currency sink in addition to the game mechanics of ship loss and consumables and such. Every PLEX sold for ISK is that many ISK gone forever once that PLEX is used. It's another balance against the endless in-game ISK-printing machines. Keeping the currency inflow and outflow somewhat on par with each other keeps this economy from spinning into WoW levels of hyperinflation. Which has the added benefit of CCP not having to add in new currencies every patch. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
654
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:24:00 -
[57] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
If the game is "junk" then Bog Off to a different game. WTF does a 29 day old noob know about the game anyway and what experience do you have to be making such game changing suggestions???
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder, not only those that will stop playing, but also you won't have all the lolmails of some pilot moving 36 PLEXes in a Kestrel... why you want us to be sad?
I've read about your gaming in here and admire your efforts from what I have read.
Why you would support PLEX I can not understand, as it is completely counter to the values of gaming in every sense.
Those who defend it, just want things for free or don't want to really risk!
Take away the plex and you'll be left only with REAL GAMERS! |
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
91
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder, not only those that will stop playing, but also you won't have all the lolmails of some pilot moving 36 PLEXes in a Kestrel... why you want us to be sad?
Chribba endorses plex. /thread |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2300
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:49:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:The way things are now, if PLEX didn't exist, I doubt EvE would have more than 200k subs. A lot of that 500k are extra accounts (as it took more than 1 account to raise another toon until this expansion). Only way to pay for that with kids is to PLEX for "free" game time.
I sub, as it's a better way to budget (set price a month). Ironically, it's due to that set price that allows having more than 1 account. F2P model and all the nickel and diming is how it stays afloat, but devs can't budget like that. Which is also why I believe Blizzard continues on the subscription model for WoW, as it's a consistent cashflow to budget with each month.
Micro pay model is what kids enjoy, but in reality there's no free lunch. Any F2P scheme out there is paid for by other means (CCP does the "free" expansions and all by PLEX and time-code sales). They're just deferring the cost onto others paying for it (leeches).
You can't go 5 sentences without saying Blizzard or WoW can you?
Why are you here again?
|
|
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:49:00 -
[61] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder, not only those that will stop playing, but also you won't have all the lolmails of some pilot moving 36 PLEXes in a Kestrel... why you want us to be sad? I've read about your gaming in here and admire your efforts from what I have read. Why you would support PLEX I can not understand, as it is completely counter to the values of gaming in every sense. Those who defend it, just want things for free or don't want to really risk! Take away the plex and you'll be left only with REAL GAMERS!
Decent troll attempt on your part I must admit . I put the OP down to you being a newb. Once more for the record...
It's been explained to you that PLEX are not free, you are trading with another player for game time. Those who can make a decent amount of ISK can buy game time from players. Players who may not have time or experience to make ISK can get it through cash. This is simply a formal version of my flatmate pays my sub, in return I build him ships. Nobody is playing for free.
Since neither skills trained nor player skill are affected by ISK this is not P2W. Even the most expensive ships get torn apart in the face of focus fire.
Because PLEX are traded between players on the open market supply and demand brings it into balance.
The greatest benefits of PLEX are:
- More players to shoot / trade with. - Healthier economy from more ISK needing to be generated. - Players can trade Cash for ISK risk free and the money goes to CCP instead of RMTs
Honestly though, you are just coming off as another troll. You are insulting and irrational and you don't make any valid point.
|
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
474
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder, not only those that will stop playing, but also you won't have all the lolmails of some pilot moving 36 PLEXes in a Kestrel... why you want us to be sad? I've read about your gaming in here and admire your efforts from what I have read. Why you would support PLEX I can not understand, as it is completely counter to the values of gaming in every sense. Those who defend it, just want things for free or don't want to really risk! Take away the plex and you'll be left only with REAL GAMERS!
Real casual gamers you mean
I think your XboX is getting lonely without you
Tell The Others |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2300
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. And damn if I'm going to slave in a game to pay for it. CCP may prefer a roller coaster revenue stream, but just look what content it delivers. Meanwhile over at WoW, they're churning out new content in 90 day cycles now. Yeah, a consistent revenue stream has it's merits. $14.95 isn't really that expensive, considering that is the price for 1 movie outing a month (or a meal at a mid level restaurant...even poor college students could afford it).
New Word, WoWhore.
|
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
474
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 14:57:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. And damn if I'm going to slave in a game to pay for it. CCP may prefer a roller coaster revenue stream, but just look what content it delivers. Meanwhile over at WoW, they're churning out new content in 90 day cycles now. Yeah, a consistent revenue stream has it's merits. $14.95 isn't really that expensive, considering that is the price for 1 movie outing a month (or a meal at a mid level restaurant...even poor college students could afford it). New Word, WoWhore.
Isnt EvE cheaper than 14.95 (Colony Bills) (I dont know what that is in Imperial Money)
Tell The Others |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1204
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 15:03:00 -
[65] - Quote
The Op post is a troll.....it MUST be Personnel Division Director - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse CEO Sanctuary Pact Alliance --áSanctuary Pact |
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 15:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology.
On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W. A game is P2W if you can buy overpowered stuff for money which is not achievable by normal gameplay. You can actually get all ships and stuff in the game on the market for ISK. So there is no P2W. Ask Hilmar about "gold Ammo". No such thing.
If you think people who sell 20 PLEX to buy some shiny ships are "better" you need to play more. Those P2W guys you are talking about are most of the times the ones that get blown up in Level 4 missions flying officer fitted loot pinatas.
Also you do not need to "grind" in EVE. You can easily earn 3-4 Plex per day if you have the know-how and a little luck. You also do not become "a hero" in EVE thanks to Money/PLEX or buying a char..who told you this ****?
There is also no F2P in EVE as every PLEX is originally bought for real money....
Dear god this thread is so bad i don`t even...
On a side note i play for almost 8 years now with breaks in between but i always pay my subs with CC. Now what?
Also you realize all that PLEX money would just end up in some chinese RMT ISK store and the money would be lost to CCP forever while thanks to PLEX it stays with EVE and supports it.
Must stop now...can`t take anmyorgghlhgllglorrk. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Caliban Logistics and Storage
9409
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 15:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote: Isnt EvE cheaper than 14.95 (Colony Bills) (I dont know what that is in Imperial Money)
Sub in the UK is -ú10 which is equivalent to $15.28
I eat your hatred for breakfast, then wash it down with your tears. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 15:20:00 -
[68] - Quote
Abon wrote:ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology.
On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W.
People not drinking the Koolaid understand that EvE isn't about equality either. With IsBox now "legal" in game and we can see 40+ box fleets, yeah, you can P2W, literally. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 15:54:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology.
On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W. People not drinking the Koolaid understand that EvE isn't about equality either. With IsBox now "legal" in game and we can see 40+ box fleets, yeah, you can P2W, literally.
Multiboxing is something very different. Without derailing too much i am not a huge friend of it either when it comes to a 40+ fleet flown by a single guy but it always existed and always will. CCP simply came to terms with it and discussing PLEX will change nothing about that issue.
Also EVE isn`t about equality..it never was to begin with. |
brinelan
The Flying Dead Insidious Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 15:56:00 -
[70] - Quote
Elliavir wrote:Lexmana wrote:Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
PLEX was a brilliant idea by CCP. It means they can avoid crappy F2P mechanics that doesn't suit a game like EVE and keep the subscription model while fighting RMT at the same time. If you have a better idea than PLEX, please enlighten us. I second the "PLEX was a brilliant idea" comment. And I subscribe. It adds so much flexibility to the game - that's a whole different thread though (101 Uses for PLEX!). One of the most underappreciated things about it is, I think, that it provides a steady currency sink in addition to the game mechanics of ship loss and consumables and such. Every PLEX sold for ISK is that many ISK gone forever once that PLEX is used. It's another balance against the endless in-game ISK-printing machines. Keeping the currency inflow and outflow somewhat on par with each other keeps this economy from spinning into WoW levels of hyperinflation. Which has the added benefit of CCP not having to add in new currencies every patch.
How exactly does plex take money out of the economy? When you buy a plex the money goes to the seller so it just moves money around except for the pittance paid in broker fees for that order. |
|
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:17:00 -
[71] - Quote
brinelan wrote:Elliavir wrote:Lexmana wrote:Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
PLEX was a brilliant idea by CCP. It means they can avoid crappy F2P mechanics that doesn't suit a game like EVE and keep the subscription model while fighting RMT at the same time. If you have a better idea than PLEX, please enlighten us. I second the "PLEX was a brilliant idea" comment. And I subscribe. It adds so much flexibility to the game - that's a whole different thread though (101 Uses for PLEX!). One of the most underappreciated things about it is, I think, that it provides a steady currency sink in addition to the game mechanics of ship loss and consumables and such. Every PLEX sold for ISK is that many ISK gone forever once that PLEX is used. It's another balance against the endless in-game ISK-printing machines. Keeping the currency inflow and outflow somewhat on par with each other keeps this economy from spinning into WoW levels of hyperinflation. Which has the added benefit of CCP not having to add in new currencies every patch. How exactly does plex take money out of the economy? When you buy a plex the money goes to the seller so it just moves money around except for the pittance paid in broker fees for that order.
If you convert the PLEX to game time the PLEX is gone and you are about 500 mill poorer. With the PLEX destroyed/converted its money value is removed from the economy and cannot be resold etc.
|
KracKstar
Nintendo Power Against ALL Authorities
24
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:21:00 -
[72] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
NO |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15266
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Abon wrote:If you convert the PLEX to game time the PLEX is gone and you are about 500 mill poorer. With the PLEX destroyed/converted its money value is removed from the economy and cannot be resold etc. GǪexcept that no conversion happens, and no money is removed.
Aside from sales taxes, PLEX are pretty much completely economy-neutral. They enter the economy without any expenditure or addition of ISK or items. They pass through the economy while generating a couple of tax sinking. And then they exit the economy without any expenditure or addition of ISK and items.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:28:00 -
[74] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Abon wrote:If you convert the PLEX to game time the PLEX is gone and you are about 500 mill poorer. With the PLEX destroyed/converted its money value is removed from the economy and cannot be resold etc. GǪexcept that no conversion happens, and no money is removed. Aside from sales taxes, PLEX are pretty much completely economy-neutral. They enter the economy without any expenditure or addition of ISK or items. They pass through the economy while generating a couple of tax sinking. And then they exit the economy without any expenditure or addition of ISK and items.
Oh **** well i forgot how it enters the market... Scrap my response then! |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
293
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:34:00 -
[75] - Quote
Abon wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology.
On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W. People not drinking the Koolaid understand that EvE isn't about equality either. With IsBox now "legal" in game and we can see 40+ box fleets, yeah, you can P2W, literally. Multiboxing is something very different. Without derailing too much i am not a huge friend of it either when it comes to a 40+ fleet flown by a single guy but it always existed and always will. CCP simply came to terms with it and discussing PLEX will change nothing about that issue. Also EVE isn`t about equality..it never was to begin with.
Multiboxing IS P2W...and PLEX even allows it to be possible.
It's checked in other games because of the expense. EvE doesn't have that price check, a player could 40 box via PLEXing.
So while it's allowed, folks can also claim EvE is now a P2W game due to it (and yes WoW too can be argued is P2W as it allows multiboxing software too). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Caldari Citizen 20120308
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:35:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sometimes I do Get tired of reading through these forums about risk v reward when a vast majority play for free. What risk do you have other than wanting to pad your killboard stats? none - -
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:37:00 -
[77] - Quote
Abon wrote:ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology. On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W. A game is P2W if you can buy overpowered stuff for money which is not achievable by normal gameplay. You can actually get all ships and stuff in the game on the market for ISK. So there is no P2W. Ask Hilmar about "gold Ammo". No such thing. If you think people who sell 20 PLEX to buy some shiny ships are "better" you need to play more. Those P2W guys you are talking about are most of the times the ones that get blown up in Level 4 missions flying officer fitted loot pinatas. Also you do not need to "grind" in EVE. You can easily earn 3-4 Plex per day if you have the know-how and a little luck. You also do not become "a hero" in EVE thanks to Money/PLEX or buying a char..who told you this ****? There is also no F2P in EVE as every PLEX is originally bought for real money.... Dear god this thread is so bad i don`t even... On a side note i play for almost 8 years now with breaks in between but i always pay my subs with CC. Now what? Also you realize all that PLEX money would just end up in some chinese RMT ISK store and the money would be lost to CCP forever while thanks to PLEX it stays with EVE and supports it. Must stop now...can`t take anmyorgghlhgllglorrk.
Dude, you are taking CRAZY pills.....
Answer me this?
I CAN BUY GEAR... 1) Can I use REAL Money to BUY PLEX to Sell in game to buy a better ship then what you had or have earned? Ships in this game are like GEAR in others. Players have to do missions to get GEAR in almost ALL other games, these missions are sometimes a grind, but they are performed by the player and are therefore EARNED in game. Earning a ship (GEAR) in game is fine.... buying it with REAL Money is PAY TO WIN..... if you think otherwise you are just fooling yourself...
I CAN BUY SKILLS 2) Can you BUY with REAL MONEY a Character to that has better skills then the one I took the time to skill on my own.... Why, YES you can... and this somehow isn't pay to win... you can with enough money buy a 156m sp toon..... CRAZY PILLS again.
I CAN BUY ADVANTAGE 3) Can you Multi-Box is this game to have an advantage over other players? Why, YES you can..... So there is NO PVP in this game.... it's fake and all a cheat code.
ANSWER ME THIS SMART GUY......
1) What would happen if you REMOVED PLEX from this GAME? 2) Removed the ability to HAVE MULTIPLE Clients Open at the same time?
I think it would be a game then.... look up what a challenge is sometime and then look up what an EXPLOIT is? |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
950
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:40:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology.
On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W. People not drinking the Koolaid understand that EvE isn't about equality either. With IsBox now "legal" in game and we can see 40+ box fleets, yeah, you can P2W, literally. Multiboxing is something very different. Without derailing too much i am not a huge friend of it either when it comes to a 40+ fleet flown by a single guy but it always existed and always will. CCP simply came to terms with it and discussing PLEX will change nothing about that issue. Also EVE isn`t about equality..it never was to begin with. Multiboxing IS P2W...and PLEX even allows it to be possible. It's checked in other games because of the expense. EvE doesn't have that price check, a player could 40 box via PLEXing. So while it's allowed, folks can also claim EvE is now a P2W game due to it (and yes WoW too can be argued is P2W as it allows multiboxing software too). multiboxing is P2W?
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Verunae Caseti
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:41:00 -
[79] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: Those who defend it, just want things for free or don't want to really risk!
Where can I get PLEX for free?
Help, please.
|
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:41:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology.
On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W. People not drinking the Koolaid understand that EvE isn't about equality either. With IsBox now "legal" in game and we can see 40+ box fleets, yeah, you can P2W, literally. Multiboxing is something very different. Without derailing too much i am not a huge friend of it either when it comes to a 40+ fleet flown by a single guy but it always existed and always will. CCP simply came to terms with it and discussing PLEX will change nothing about that issue. Also EVE isn`t about equality..it never was to begin with. Multiboxing IS P2W...and PLEX even allows it to be possible. It's checked in other games because of the expense. EvE doesn't have that price check, a player could 40 box via PLEXing. So while it's allowed, folks can also claim EvE is now a P2W game due to it (and yes WoW too can be argued is P2W as it allows multiboxing software too).
Point is it would also be happening if there would be no PLEX. Do you think somebody who invests that kind of money into hardware to run 40+ clients cares about sub fees. I don`t think so. I multibox and i never use PLEX soo... Basically every MMO is P2W following that logic as stated by yourself. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15268
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:44:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Multiboxing IS P2W...and PLEX even allows it to be possible. Multiboxing is P2W in the same sense as being 5 players rather than 4 is P2W, i.e. not at allGǪ and its being allowed and possible is completely unconnected to the existence of PLEX. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:45:00 -
[82] - Quote
Verunae Caseti wrote:Franco Stein wrote: Those who defend it, just want things for free or don't want to really risk!
Where can I get PLEX for free? Help, please.
Simple.... scam the guy that bought it from a RL Vendor so he could buy gear to compete with you. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:47:00 -
[83] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Multiboxing IS P2W...and PLEX even allows it to be possible. Multiboxing is P2W in the same sense as being 5 players rather than 4 is P2W, i.e. not at allGǪ and its being allowed and possible is completely unconnected to the existence of PLEX.
WRONG.... If there was no PLEX, and a player had to actually subscribe each and every account and pay $ 75 a month for those 5 accounts in Real money.... There would be far less multiboxing... and if the client didn't allow multi-session it would solve that issue as well.... but we all know that will never happen, unless you don't buy PLEX... |
Caldari Citizen 20120308
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:48:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[quote=Ace Uoweme]Multiboxing is completely unconnected to the existence of PLEX.
lol to the "existence" no. But does multiboxing provide easier means to obtain it, yes.
|
Din Chao
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
285
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:51:00 -
[85] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Multiboxing IS P2W... Except that they're usually mining, and mining is the antithesis of "winning." |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15268
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:54:00 -
[86] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:WRONG.... If there was no PLEX, and a player had to actually subscribe each and every account and pay $ 75 a month for those 5 accounts in Real money.... There would be far less multiboxing... and if the client didn't allow multi-session it would solve that issue as well.... but we all know that will never happen, unless you don't buy PLEX... GÇ£IssueGÇ¥? What issue? And how is the software design in any way connected to PLEX?
And no, it's not wrong, as proven by history. Multiboxing would (and did) exist just fine before PLEX were around. In fact, if anything, the hare-brained notion that multiboxing is somehow P2W proves that PLEX is the opposite of P2W: the guy who doesn't pay wins by virtue of having all those accounts for free without himself paying any real-life cash for them. But then, having more people around is not P2W to begin with, and neither is PLEX since there is no GÇ£winGÇ¥ to be bought.
Oh, and no, disallowing multiple instances of the client would not stop multiboxing either. There's a reason it's called multiboxing after allGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2301
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 16:59:00 -
[87] - Quote
Looking at this topic and a few on the front page of GD , well ,it makes me want to check the cycle of the moon or something, because these people sure are coming out of the wood work today lol. |
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:03:00 -
[88] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
Nope and nope. A day one newbie will never out fight any player that has the support skills, connections, knowledge and/or gusto of a non-newbie player no matter the hull they're sitting in. Even if you factor in buying a new character, they still have no real edge over an experienced pilot. So, nope. PLEX != PTW. Try again. |
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:06:00 -
[89] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Abon wrote:ITT: A mad guy not understanding PLEX and basic game terminology.
On a serious note...you misunderstand the term P2W. People not drinking the Koolaid understand that EvE isn't about equality either. With IsBox now "legal" in game and we can see 40+ box fleets, yeah, you can P2W, literally. Multiboxing is something very different. Without derailing too much i am not a huge friend of it either when it comes to a 40+ fleet flown by a single guy but it always existed and always will. CCP simply came to terms with it and discussing PLEX will change nothing about that issue. Also EVE isn`t about equality..it never was to begin with. Multiboxing IS P2W...and PLEX even allows it to be possible. It's checked in other games because of the expense. EvE doesn't have that price check, a player could 40 box via PLEXing. So while it's allowed, folks can also claim EvE is now a P2W game due to it (and yes WoW too can be argued is P2W as it allows multiboxing software too).
Multiboxing is not PTW under any condition as you need to know what you're doing. Plus, I don't believe you can script your other boxes to act via botting at all. That is still against EULA/TOS for CCP, so the bannination would ensue when (not if) a player gets caught. It's no skin off their back if they ban such morons. It just frees up resources for them. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Clan Steel Wolves
215
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:07:00 -
[90] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Looking at this topic and a few on the front page of GD , well ,it makes me want to check the cycle of the moon or something, because these people sure are coming out of the wood work today lol.
Mercury is retrograde. Bad time for communications, etc. |
|
Kult Altol
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
523
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
Uh, PVE is great. I love the mission. Uh, PVP is great, FW is fun as hell on my alt. uh, PLEX is great, I dual train on my second account.
HTFU. An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. A narrow mind is a focused mind. -irregardless, I'm with Yolo Swaggins, and the followship of the bling.-á |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
692
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:13:00 -
[92] - Quote
~20% of EVE accounts (100k) paid by PLEX which cost around $20.
Sure, CCP, listen to this random stranger - cut off your $24.000.000 (per year) income. |
4runner
Eternal Profiteers Eternal Syndicate
36
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:20:00 -
[93] - Quote
I have no interest to come home from my 8-5 work, only to sit by the computer and work more to be able to pay for spaceship rent every month, I pay my sub with cash and I also convert gametime to Plexes, I spend that cash on ships and stuff and "HAVE FUN" if I run out of cash I simply convert more plexes to ISK.
I am a early 2004 player and I have tried most "professions" in this game and now it's all about having fun, exploring ( not for the loot and cash) just flying around hostile zones, picking fights and general fooling around null/lowsec, I have no interest to run lvl 4 missions for hours and hours just to afford a new pvp ship.
If they remove the plex system from the game I will most likely unsub, (Yes, someone can have my stuff) or if they come up with another cash for ISK system |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:~20% of EVE accounts (100k) paid by PLEX which cost around $20 each.
Sure, CCP, listen to this random stranger - cut off your $24.000.000 (per year) income stream.
How would cutting off PLEX stop CCP's income? Would those players just STOP playing since they couldn't buy a PLEX to sub with..... WRONG.. it's cheaper to pay with CC friend.... The PLEX is the PAY TO WIN model and the lifers use it to Play for Free.
wake up.!!1
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2303
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:23:00 -
[95] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Lipbite wrote:~20% of EVE accounts (100k) paid by PLEX which cost around $20 each.
Sure, CCP, listen to this random stranger - cut off your $24.000.000 (per year) income stream. How would cutting off PLEX stop CCP's income? Would those players just STOP playing since they couldn't buy a PLEX to sub with..... WRONG.. it's cheaper to pay with CC friend.... The PLEX is the PAY TO WIN model and the lifers use it to Play for Free. wake up.!!1
GTCs cost more than subs, you're actually suggesting to a game company that it cut it's own revenue stream.
Good luck with that. |
Kult Altol
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
523
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:27:00 -
[96] - Quote
Plexing is also a huge incentive to get new players.
Plus the best stories involve plex scandels. look it up. An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. A narrow mind is a focused mind. -irregardless, I'm with Yolo Swaggins, and the followship of the bling.-á |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:31:00 -
[97] - Quote
Kult Altol wrote:Plexing is also a huge incentive to get new players.
Plus the best stories involve plex scandels. look it up.
I agree with the entertainment value of the scandals for sure..... it could be faction gear lost though and be just as frightening. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2656
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:36:00 -
[98] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Looking at this topic and a few on the front page of GD , well ,it makes me want to check the cycle of the moon or something, because these people sure are coming out of the wood work today lol.
It''s nearly the end of the month, and the next Gov assistance checks don't arrive until after the 1st.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Kult Altol
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
523
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:41:00 -
[99] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Kult Altol wrote:Plexing is also a huge incentive to get new players.
Plus the best stories involve plex scandels. look it up. I agree with the entertainment value of the scandals for sure..... it could be faction gear lost though and be just as frightening.
But the great thing about plex is that it equates REAL money. So when people like cracked.com or massively report a huge scandal they can say "so and so lost 9000$ worth of gear" An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. A narrow mind is a focused mind. -irregardless, I'm with Yolo Swaggins, and the followship of the bling.-á |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:41:00 -
[100] - Quote
Telemicus Thrace wrote:Franco Stein wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder, not only those that will stop playing, but also you won't have all the lolmails of some pilot moving 36 PLEXes in a Kestrel... why you want us to be sad? I've read about your gaming in here and admire your efforts from what I have read. Why you would support PLEX I can not understand, as it is completely counter to the values of gaming in every sense. Those who defend it, just want things for free or don't want to really risk! Take away the plex and you'll be left only with REAL GAMERS! Decent troll attempt on your part I must admit . I put the OP down to you being a newb. Once more for the record... It's been explained to you that PLEX are not free, you are trading with another player for game time. Those who can make a decent amount of ISK can buy game time from players. Players who may not have time or experience to make ISK can get it through cash. This is simply a formal version of my flatmate pays my sub, in return I build him ships. Nobody is playing for free. Since neither skills trained nor player skill are affected by ISK this is not P2W. Even the most expensive ships get torn apart in the face of focus fire. Because PLEX are traded between players on the open market supply and demand brings it into balance. The greatest benefits of PLEX are: - More players to shoot / trade with. - Healthier economy from more ISK needing to be generated. - Players can trade Cash for ISK risk free and the money goes to CCP instead of RMTs Honestly though, you are just coming off as another troll. You are insulting and irrational and you don't make any valid point.
You lost me at the "SINCE NEITHER SKILLS TRAINED NOR PLAYER SKILL ARE AFFECTED BY ISK" comment.... you obviously haven't heard of the Character Bazaar.... it's a place where you CAN BUY VERY SKILLED characters, that you can BUY cool ships for, that you CAN Multibox with to EXPLOIT the Players who don't do any of those things and just skill and Sub, grind, trade, etc.....
P2W.....
You folks will just keep going..... log off for a week and do something else... then post your experiences... did you enjoy your life outside your cheat code... did you jump a guy at the bar with 5 of your friends or paid bodyguards.... did you feel like you somehow WON as a result and that you're great because of it?
So many questions, so little time!!!
All in good fun |
|
Xeraphi
The Gun Runners
56
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:54:00 -
[101] - Quote
Oooh this thread always happens. "I'm a better person because I have a job irl aren't I grand?!"
EVE is the only game where f2p works, you know why?
Imagine an infinity symbol. On one side of the loop, someone buys PLEX with cash, and on the other side, someone buys it with ISK. Now, you can see that cycle is happening and it keeps going around, you know why? Because now both people are creating content. Both people have the opportunity to interact with other people, get blown up, be a part of this universe. You remove one half, you only have a circle, not an infinity loop. Only one kind of person, half the content. Because it's a sandbox game, it NEEDS a critical mass of players. It also adds a unique mechanism not found in other games - blowing up real monetary investment. Without people buying PLEX to play, it wouldn't be as meaningful.
Simple. New target lock death animation problem #1 ^ eye strain and pain Temporary workaround found to one of these. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15277
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:54:00 -
[102] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:You lost me at the "SINCE NEITHER SKILLS TRAINED NOR PLAYER SKILL ARE AFFECTED BY ISK" comment.... you obviously haven't heard of the Character Bazaar.... it's a place where you CAN BUY VERY SKILLED characters, that you can BUY cool ships for, that you CAN Multibox with to EXPLOIT the Players who don't do any of those things and just skill and Sub, grind, trade, etc.....
P2W..... GǪexcept that no GÇ£winGÇ¥ is bought GÇö assets are just transferred. You're effectively suggesting that, when I go to Jita to buy myself a couple of newly-manufactured Blaster Cannon IIs, I'm paying to win. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
335
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:59:00 -
[103] - Quote
destiny2 wrote:players that buy plex for that nice shiney ship are the ones putting them on the market. Scenario 1 Poster gets plexes to be removed. Scenario 2 Poster Wants a titan the realizes **** grinding, with even 5 toons is still hard to grind isk for a titan then realizes oh i wish i could buy some plexes too. Scenario 3. Poster is eathier someone who is to stupid to actually realise what a contract actually says and got scammed. I'm gonna go with all of the above. Obviously he read a contract wrong and got scammed
Sceneario for, Poster thinks plex is p2w, buys a titan with plex, then gets tackled by a onyx and loses his titan, his p2w blown up. |
Alexila Quant
Strategic Acquisitions Group Tactical Research Lab
89
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:01:00 -
[104] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr If you have 5 characters you could make approx 2b/h in a c5 Pay for those 5 characters in an hour and a half and then the rest is profit. Would probably be difficult to manage though. You asked though. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Franco Stein wrote:You lost me at the "SINCE NEITHER SKILLS TRAINED NOR PLAYER SKILL ARE AFFECTED BY ISK" comment.... you obviously haven't heard of the Character Bazaar.... it's a place where you CAN BUY VERY SKILLED characters, that you can BUY cool ships for, that you CAN Multibox with to EXPLOIT the Players who don't do any of those things and just skill and Sub, grind, trade, etc.....
P2W..... GǪexcept that no GÇ£winGÇ¥ is bought GÇö assets are just transferred. You're effectively suggesting that, when I go to Jita to buy myself a couple of newly-manufactured Blaster Cannon IIs, I'm paying to win.
You puzzle me?
What does buying something in JITA have to do with Buying ISK via a real life transaction to get a TIme Code to sell to get ISK.. If you buy stuff with Real Life money, you did nothing in Game to EARN that benefit for that SPECIFIC Transaction. You may use that PLEX to trade stuff and EARN in game ISK, but that is following a cheat..... try earning EVERYTHING is game based on your OWN efforts during YOUR PLAY TIME with YOUR CHARACTER..... anything else is Exploiting...
PLEX was created to funnel the money to CCP instead of Shark websites that sell ISK for RL Money.. for people who don't want to EARN stuff on their own and want a CHEAT code and a PLAY NOW BUTTON.. there is other ways to restrict or eliminate those website ISK scams. |
Doc Spectre
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:17:00 -
[106] - Quote
I don't log on to work either. I pay 5 accounts with cash once a year and the 6th I pay monthly. That's not gonna change unless I start up more accounts to pay monthly... |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:24:00 -
[107] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:destiny2 wrote:players that buy plex for that nice shiney ship are the ones putting them on the market. Scenario 1 Poster gets plexes to be removed. Scenario 2 Poster Wants a titan the realizes **** grinding, with even 5 toons is still hard to grind isk for a titan then realizes oh i wish i could buy some plexes too. Scenario 3. Poster is eathier someone who is to stupid to actually realise what a contract actually says and got scammed. I'm gonna go with all of the above. Obviously he read a contract wrong and got scammed Sceneario for, Poster thinks plex is p2w, buys a titan with plex, then gets tackled by a onyx and loses his titan, his p2w blown up.
What? How is this any sort of argument about funding your GEAR/CHARACTERS/ETC. with Real Life Money. If you EARN a titan you have every right to be stupid with it...... If you buy a Titan with RL money and loss it, you EXPLOITED to get it and are Stupid for losing it.... so?
Let me fix your model. 1) In the P2W model you just figure, well I lost $50 dollars of real money (or whatever) and I make $25 an hour at my RL job, so only two hours of time lost...no biggie... I'll just buy another and be as stupid as I want to be..... (Great for F2P Lifers wallets)
2) In the EARN your Way in game Model....... WTF, I just lost a ship that I spent 2 weeks grinding for... I am so Stupid...
Is there a difference.... pick your ship, pick your play style... |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
295
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:25:00 -
[108] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:PLEX was created to funnel the money to CCP instead of Shark websites that sell ISK for RL Money..
The experiment worked. But it also has other problems it introduced and one is the hyper-inflation (worst I've seen in gaming -- PLEX was selling for around 250mil ISK in 2010, it's getting to 600mil in 2013 -- RL PLEX price is the same. Such controls are also suppose to curb the inflation, not hyper-inflate it). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Caldari Citizen 20120308
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
So in sitting by my pool drinking some beer right now and it dawned on me, oh wait I lost it. Hmmm when did they fix the forums to post from smart phones. Awesomeness. |
Commander Rahl
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:36:00 -
[110] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:The way things are now, if PLEX didn't exist, I doubt EvE would have more than 200k subs. A lot of that 500k are extra accounts (as it took more than 1 account to raise another toon until this expansion). Only way to pay for that with kids is to PLEX for "free" game time.
I sub, as it's a better way to budget (set price a month). Ironically, it's due to that set price that allows having more than 1 account. F2P model and all the nickel and diming is how it stays afloat, but devs can't budget like that. Which is also why I believe Blizzard continues on the subscription model for WoW, as it's a consistent cashflow to budget with each month.
Micro pay model is what kids enjoy, but in reality there's no free lunch. Any F2P scheme out there is paid for by other means (CCP does the "free" expansions and all by PLEX and time-code sales). They're just deferring the cost onto others paying for it (leeches).
League of Legends is by far the biggest game in the world and it is purely run off of micro transactions that do no affect the balance of the game. Riot games literally pays professional LoL players six figure salaries and supplies the money for the biggest LoL tournament. The free to play model will be the standard model in the future, whether you like it or not. |
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Coldest Sea Sailing
502
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:42:00 -
[111] - Quote
smokess wrote: 1. CCP makes more money from PLEX purchasers than they do from regular subscription fees.
2. How does someone paying for PLEX with ISK affect 'the sandbox'? Paying for ISK by buying PLEX maybe.
3. How would people paying for the game 'out of pocket' make PvP and PvE better?
4. 'Entrenched player base that pays nothing' means nothing. CCP don't seed PLEX onto the market unless special circumstances occur within which they need to stabilise the prices of them. All PLEX you see in Jita, Rens, Dodixie - anywhere for that matter - have been bought by a player and CCP have received revenue from them.
Gåæ Gåæ Gåæ Welp, there ya go, OP...now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna buy a PLEX with isk...maybe more - you've inspired me
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:03:00 -
[112] - Quote
Dear OP,
Since you are incredible dense (no offence seriously but you are) i propose an experiment.
I want you to buy some PLEX for real money and sell those PLEX in Jita. Afterwards i want you to buy your P2W 1337 carrier pilot on the char bazaar. Then you will proceed to put said character into a new shiny officer fitted carrier (bought with PLEX of course). You can then proceed to a lowsec system of your choosing where i will visit you in my own plebian and worthless carrier that i bought by "grinding" (aka blowing up some poor guy and taking his cargo which takes like 2 minutes but ok.) I am a worthless player who pays his sub with CC so i cannot afford officer modules of course. The grind would simply take years and years.
Since according to your logic your master race officer fitted carrier is a P2W carrier you can commence melting my puny carrier to slag since i have no chance whatsoever and should better eject right away. Let me know when you have set up everything so we can enjoy solid proof of your believes.
(Disclaimer: Sarcasm, you will probably die in <5 minutes and i will loot your P2W ubermods. Play this game for a year and we talk again...maybe.)
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:11:00 -
[113] - Quote
smokess wrote:Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
Your thought process is nonsensical. 1. CCP makes more money from PLEX purchasers than they do from regular subscription fees. 2. How does someone paying for PLEX with ISK affect 'the sandbox'? Paying for ISK by buying PLEX maybe. 3. How would people paying for the game 'out of pocket' make PvP and PvE better? 4. 'Entrenched player base that pays nothing' means nothing. CCP don't seed PLEX onto the market unless special circumstances occur within which they need to stabilise the prices of them. All PLEX you see in Jita, Rens, Dodixie - anywhere for that matter - have been bought by a player and CCP have received revenue from them. Now **** off.
You seem to be concerned only that CCP makes money.... They should make money based on a game of merit, not addiction!
To answer you questions though, here you are.
1) CCP will not truly know what their actual player revenues could be since their model is so wrong, but gaming companies tend to not have a feature that allows players to buy advantage with real money, such as this game so clearly does. Entropia is another I can think of off hand. 2) PLEX is REAL MONEY plain and simple. if CCP wanted people to have extended play via an in game currency like ISK, they would not use PLEX, they would use ISK to extend game time. The Sandbox if clearly effected by REAL MONEY since those who have it will have a clear advantage to those that grind for it, no matter what that grind is. Come on, does someone have to tell you a thousand times that buying GEAR is wrong, Buying skills (via Character Bazaar) is wrong, ... you didn't earn it, so you shouldn't call it skill. 3) If you remove PLEX you will reduce accounts, create real risk, inspire new players to get involved and reduce many of the lifers from so much control over a game that is long past their use. 4) CCP seeds PLEX when they need money, or PLEX supplies are low. PLEX has ALWAYS been available since it was introducted, with only the price changing. PLEX is Buying a win, no matter how it's spelled out.
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
688
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:14:00 -
[114] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
And watch the game die in 60 days.
Why, carebears? No Nullbears. When they cant PLEX their supercarriers they will cry like 8 year old girls with skinned knees. And ragequit.
Also, every time I burn PLEX I pay $17.50 to play the game. The fact that you don't understand that makes you kinda behind the curve. we're gonna make them eat our ship, then ship out our ship, and then eat their ship that's made up of our ship that we made 'em eat. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:20:00 -
[115] - Quote
Abon wrote:Dear OP, Since you are incredible dense (no offence seriously but you are) i propose an experiment. I want you to buy some PLEX for real money and sell those PLEX in Jita. Afterwards i want you to buy your P2W 1337 carrier pilot on the char bazaar. Then you will proceed to put that character into a new shiny officer fitted carrier (bought with PLEX of course). You can then proceed to a lowsec system of your choosing where i will visit you in my own plebian and worthless carrier that i bought by "grinding" (aka blowing up some poor guy and taking his cargo which takes like 2 minutes but ok.) I am a worthless player who pays his sub with CC so i cannot afford officer modules of course. The grind would simply take years and years. Since according to your logic your master race officer fitted carrier is a P2W carrier you can commence melting my puny carrier to slag since i have no chance whatsoever and should better eject right away. Let me know when you have set up everything so we can enjoy solid proof of your believes. (Disclaimer: Sarcasm, you will probably die in <5 minutes and i will loot your P2W ubermods. Play this game for a year and we talk again...maybe.)
Outside of the negative comment.... you are again mistaken.
With your logic CCP should do the following.
1) Remove any requirements to fly ships, mods, etc. 2) Stop the progressive skilling of characters. 3) Remove any leveling in game or character progression.
You could just as easily have a very skilled player who knows exactly how to win your above scenario, but only so darn lazy he refuses to work for it in game and throws down his cash to get this win....to make him feel like a big boy.
Learn the difference . . . . . it's not about skill, it's about long term players not paying anymore for the game and ANY player's ability to add RL money to a game to get a quick road to whatever!!!!
Remove PLEX and you will have to EARN your wins or truly FEEL those losses, and WAIT for those big finishes. |
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:30:00 -
[116] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
Yeah.. let's punish all the people that keep this community alive.
troll Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
|
Tiven loves Tansien
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
866
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:33:00 -
[117] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:Dear OP,
If Chribba is in opposition to your idea, then you're wrong.
That is all.
haha... why do you lick the white knight so much? |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
4763
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:37:00 -
[118] - Quote
Someones parents wouldnt let them borrow the credit card to buy PLEX..... so logically PLEX should be removed from the game. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:43:00 -
[119] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: Outside of the negative comment.... you are again mistaken.
With your logic CCP should do the following.
1) Remove any requirements to fly ships, mods, etc. 2) Stop the progressive skilling of characters. 3) Remove any leveling in game or character progression.
You could just as easily have a very skilled player who knows exactly how to win your above scenario, but only so darn lazy he refuses to work for it in game and throws down his cash to get this win....to make him feel like a big boy.
Learn the difference . . . . . it's not about skill, it's about long term players not paying anymore for the game and ANY player's ability to add RL money to a game to get a quick road to whatever!!!!
Remove PLEX and you will have to EARN your wins or truly FEEL those losses, and WAIT for those big finishes.
Is that what it is OP? Are you truly FEELING your losses?
So your mad because you HAVE to buy PLEX, and you are pissed because someone asploded your rifter and you burn with hatred just KNOWING that the SOB that made you $hit your shorts is some @sshole vet that farms for his plex?
Am I getting your vibe?
You have no proof of anything and you're whining in GD like a little girl. Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
|
Endeavour Starfleet
897
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:46:00 -
[120] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
So you want CCP as a business to suffer because YOU are not RL rich. Right?
This is not a good idea.
|
|
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1763
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:46:00 -
[121] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
Not even worth arguing.
A resounding "no." |
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
8752
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 20:07:00 -
[122] - Quote
Tiven loves Tansien wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:Dear OP,
If Chribba is in opposition to your idea, then you're wrong.
That is all.
haha... why do you lick the white knight so much? Raspberry?
|
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
953
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 20:20:00 -
[123] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Tiven loves Tansien wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:Dear OP,
If Chribba is in opposition to your idea, then you're wrong.
That is all.
haha... why do you lick the white knight so much? Raspberry? myrtle. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 20:34:00 -
[124] - Quote
Tixam Quri wrote:Franco Stein wrote: Outside of the negative comment.... you are again mistaken.
With your logic CCP should do the following.
1) Remove any requirements to fly ships, mods, etc. 2) Stop the progressive skilling of characters. 3) Remove any leveling in game or character progression.
You could just as easily have a very skilled player who knows exactly how to win your above scenario, but only so darn lazy he refuses to work for it in game and throws down his cash to get this win....to make him feel like a big boy.
Learn the difference . . . . . it's not about skill, it's about long term players not paying anymore for the game and ANY player's ability to add RL money to a game to get a quick road to whatever!!!!
Remove PLEX and you will have to EARN your wins or truly FEEL those losses, and WAIT for those big finishes. Is that what it is OP? Are you truly FEELING your losses? So your mad because you HAVE to buy PLEX, and you are pissed because someone asploded your rifter and you burn with hatred just KNOWING that the SOB that made you $hit your shorts is some @sshole vet that farms for his plex? Am I getting your vibe? You have no proof of anything and you're whining in GD like a little girl.
No mister Tixam, I didn't lose a ship.... but thank you so much for caring about my feelings.
If you feel that posting a game change is whining, you are mistaken. Change happens if you like it or not, some people comment with real words, others who don't have a strong command of sentences just use derogatory comments and tell the OP to go away.
in either case, I really care about you too!
PS... I don't PVP in this game because there is no PVP in this game! That what I am posting about. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
726
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 20:56:00 -
[125] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex. You are, quite possibly congenitally impaired.
At least I hope that's the reason . . .
For this bad post.
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:03:00 -
[126] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You can't go 5 sentences without saying Blizzard or WoW can you?
Jenn, confused? You're suppose to be hitting on Ramona. I'm not that way. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
298
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:05:00 -
[127] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Chribba wrote:Tiven loves Tansien wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:Dear OP,
If Chribba is in opposition to your idea, then you're wrong.
That is all.
haha... why do you lick the white knight so much? Raspberry? myrtle. Cherry. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
953
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:08:00 -
[128] - Quote
good man, I hate cherries. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
852
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:08:00 -
[129] - Quote
Epic thread. The Tears Must Flow |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
726
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:12:00 -
[130] - Quote
Telemicus Thrace wrote:
The greatest benefits of PLEX are:
- More players to shoot / trade with. - Healthier economy from more ISK needing to be generated. - Players can trade Cash for ISK risk free and the money goes to CCP instead of RMTs
Honestly though, you are just coming off as another troll. You are insulting and irrational and you don't make any valid point.
Less RMT too.
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
|
Obunagawe
148
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:15:00 -
[131] - Quote
Remove all aspects of the game apart from skill training. It's the only fair way. |
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:18:00 -
[132] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: No mister Tixam, I didn't lose a ship.... but thank you so much for caring about my feelings.
If you feel that posting a game change is whining, you are mistaken. Change happens if you like it or not, some people comment with real words, others who don't have a strong command of sentences just use derogatory comments and tell the OP to go away.
in either case, I really care about you too!
PS... I don't PVP in this game because there is no PVP in this game! That what I am posting about.
1) I do appreciate the respect in your address. I will respond in kind.
2) Mr. Franco, perhaps I've misjudged your intent. However, your initial post is at the very least a rant embellished with what I can only guess to be your still drying tears.
A:Franco Stein wrote: This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
Please stop ranting in a forum for a game you just don't like. This is called trolling, and you're particularly bad at it.
As others have previously stated you are both incorrect and inexperienced in how the community uses PLEX and how it effects gameplay.
B:Franco Stein wrote:REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute.
I assume that you are not trolling on an alt. So...in 29 days, how have you contributed to EVE?
PLEX is payed for by real players... out of pocket. Your argument is invalid.
C:Franco Stein wrote:REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
PLEX does not make the game pay to win. Go ahead, sell a few PLEX buy a big ship and find out for yourself. Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
|
Northern Misfit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:23:00 -
[133] - Quote
Tixam Quri wrote:Franco Stein wrote:REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model.. PLEX does not make the game pay to win. Go ahead, sell a few PLEX buy a big ship and find out for yourself.
I can even recommend a few systems for you to bring your shiney pretty ship. I might even help you learn some handy skills.
PLEX has nothing to do with winning. Skill, practice, practice, practice, undocking and not trolling forums is the best place to start. I will babysit your stuff for you while you're gone, all contributions to my ship replacement program are-ásubject to being exploded on the undock
-á |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4314
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:56:00 -
[134] - Quote
I'm not really sure the OP knows how PLEX works... he certainly doesn't understand what Pay to Win means... To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Bob Blunts
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 21:58:00 -
[135] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Chribba wrote:Remove PLEX and everyone would be so much sadder Not me. I never believed in this F2P scam, as there is no free lunches. And damn if I'm going to slave in a game to pay for it. CCP may prefer a roller coaster revenue stream, but just look what content it delivers. Meanwhile over at WoW, they're churning out new content in 90 day cycles now. Yeah, a consistent revenue stream has it's merits. $14.95 isn't really that expensive, considering that is the price for 1 movie outing a month (or a meal at a mid level restaurant...even poor college students could afford it).
Hi! You seem to be unaware of this, but Wow is a completely unredeemable steaming pile of garbage. It has been like this since roughly 2006. Noone here, besides you, gives a rats arse what ~ content ~ any of the drooling theme park retards who play that terrible game are being spoonfed. My 12 year old son won't even touch that crap game because he says "it's for little kids." I'm inclined to agree with him.
HTH. |
Jimmy Morane
Aurora Novae Aetatis Expoit This Mf's
44
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 22:51:00 -
[136] - Quote
Sometimes I feel like the only person in the world that has never played WoW. Never even been to the website.
I have played STO though. That is themepark city. Also, Mr. Epeen once said he was playing a game during that major downtime ccp had a few weeks back but was too embarrassed to mention the title of it. I'm still curious what that was, Mr. Epeen. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 22:52:00 -
[137] - Quote
I think the issues is your definition of winning folks.
Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!
Winning in this game could mean all or none of the following and is certainly effected by RL Money being added to buy earned game items instead of actually earning them or buying them in game from earned efforts.... piracy, trading, whatever?
1) Seed money to trade with= I am a master trader, all I need is a few billion ISK to control my market... let's PLEX it. 2) False value of time vs reward vs risk: My Tengu will cost me one hour of work time, let's role!!! I'll Just PLEX it. 3) Serious advantage in PVE game play of ALL sorts. With Plex I can buy ORCA's, Miners, Storming missions, etc..etc. 4) Legitimately beating a high score (personal or group).... in all areas of the game!
If all you think winning is .... surrounds blowing up another players rig... well, no one can help you.....
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 22:54:00 -
[138] - Quote
Jimmy Morane wrote:Sometimes I feel like the only person in the world that has never played WoW. Never even been to the website. I have played STO though. That is themepark city. Also, Mr. Epeen once said he was playing a game during that major downtime ccp had a few weeks back but was too embarrassed to mention the title of it. I'm still curious what that was, Mr. Epeen.
I have NEVER played that game, although friends do... I WILL NEVER play that game... .... I want to play a space ship game, but there is none that I have found so far! |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 22:59:00 -
[139] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I will never understand people who think like this. I pay my Eve sub with real money. Why? Time efficiency. Even if I enjoyed Eve's PVE (which I do not), it would make more sense to just pay my sub with cash rather than PLEX. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) without either a massive investment, or serious risk involved. Just because I pay my sub with cash, doesn't mean that I contribute anything more than a person who PLEXes their account. In fact, I probably contribute less, because they are having to perform in game actions to keep their subs rolling, whereas I am not.
This is true for most people. But there are still a number of people for whom plexing makes sense. Or do you think most people who plex their account are stupid?
There are people who make more than 500M ISK/hour in eve (sometimes quite a bit above that), but those are, admittedly, very few people. There are some people who cannot really make any income in real life approaching even 5 $/hour (sometimes way less), depending on the country they live in. Then there are people who enjoy making money in game and simply have enough left over after expenses, so why shouldn't they pay with plex?
(There are a few more cases where plexing your account makes sense, but those are a few to illustrate the case.) |
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:03:00 -
[140] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:I think the issues is your definition of winning folks.
Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!
Winning in this game could mean all or none of the following and is certainly effected by RL Money being added to buy earned game items instead of actually earning them or buying them in game from earned efforts.... piracy, trading, whatever?
1) Seed money to trade with= I am a master trader, all I need is a few billion ISK to control my market... let's PLEX it. 2) False value of time vs reward vs risk: My Tengu will cost me one hour of work time, let's role!!! I'll Just PLEX it. 3) Serious advantage in PVE game play of ALL sorts. With Plex I can buy ORCA's, Miners, Storming missions, etc..etc. 4) Legitimately beating a high score (personal or group).... in all areas of the game!
If all you think winning is .... surrounds blowing up another players rig... well, no one can help you.....
PLEX trade for ~550mil isk or more.
People are not winning with that amount.
They are learning valuable (read: costly) lessons sooner rather than later.
People that are established in game (read and think about this next part carefully) DO NOT NEED TO SELL PLEX TO GET MONEY TO WIN.
So again, let's be perfectly clear here.
You are talking out your arse Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
|
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:03:00 -
[141] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I will never understand people who think like this. I pay my Eve sub with real money. Why? Time efficiency. Even if I enjoyed Eve's PVE (which I do not), it would make more sense to just pay my sub with cash rather than PLEX. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) without either a massive investment, or serious risk involved. Just because I pay my sub with cash, doesn't mean that I contribute anything more than a person who PLEXes their account. In fact, I probably contribute less, because they are having to perform in game actions to keep their subs rolling, whereas I am not. This is true for most people. But there are still a number of people for whom plexing makes sense. Or do you think most people who plex their account are stupid? There are people who make more than 500M ISK/hour in eve (sometimes quite a bit above that), but those are, admittedly, very few people. There are some people who cannot really make any income in real life approaching even 5 $/hour (sometimes way less), depending on the country they live in. Then there are people who enjoy making money in game and simply have enough left over after expenses, so why shouldn't they pay with plex? (There are a few more cases where plexing your account makes sense, but those are a few to illustrate the case.)
PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference! |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:17:00 -
[142] - Quote
Tixam Quri wrote:
PLEX trade for ~550mil isk or more.
People are not winning with that amount.
They are learning valuable (read: costly) lessons sooner rather than later.
People that are established in game (read and think about this next part carefully) DO NOT NEED TO SELL PLEX TO GET MONEY TO WIN.
So again, let's be perfectly clear here.
You are talking out your arse
The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where?
Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:17:00 -
[143] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference!
Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ... |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:22:00 -
[144] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:Franco Stein wrote:PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference! Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ...
PLEX originates using REAL Money ONLY....
ISK is earned in Game and is FAKE money ONLY....
That is the difference..... just because you can turn PLEX into ISK or buy an already in game PLEX for ISK doesn't make them the same. PLEX doesn't get in game unless someone paid REAL money for it!
PLEX turned into ISK is a cheat code.... plain and simple, and a PAY (read again the description of PLEX) to WIN or with our simplified example = Pay for Advantage!!! |
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:28:00 -
[145] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where?
Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts.
Of course they are using it to pay for game time.
Your original argument was that PLEX was pay to win, you have lost that argument so now you are complaining that space rich players play for free.
Guess what?
They are also the ones manufacturing ships/modules/equipment that allow noobs to access the best the game has to offer.
Them buying PLEX benefits new players willing to sell PLEX for startup isk.
Let me finish with repeating that NEW PLAYERS DON'T WIN BY BUYING PLEX.
Try it and let us know how you do. Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:29:00 -
[146] - Quote
Tixam Quri wrote:Franco Stein wrote:The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where?
Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts. Of course they are using it to pay for game time. Your original argument was that PLEX was pay to win, you have lost that argument so now you are complaining that space rich players play for free. Guess what? They are also the ones manufacturing ships/modules/equipment that allow noobs to access the best the game has to offer. Them buying PLEX benefits new players willing to sell PLEX for startup isk. Let me finish with repeating that NEW PLAYERS DON'T WIN BY BUYING PLEX. Try it and let us know how you do.
The original post is the same, you just say one part of it.... that PLEX is bad.... read it again
PLEX gives lifers a FREE way to play and others a insta-advantage..... two streets...same problem! |
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:31:00 -
[147] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Karsa Egivand wrote:Franco Stein wrote:PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference! Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ... PLEX originates using REAL Money ONLY.... ISK is earned in Game and is FAKE money ONLY.... That is the difference..... just because you can turn PLEX into ISK or buy an already in game PLEX for ISK doesn't make them the same. PLEX doesn't get in game unless someone paid REAL money for it! PLEX turned into ISK is a cheat code.... plain and simple, and a PAY (read again the description of PLEX) to WIN or with our simplified example = Pay for Advantage!!! The REAL BIGGEST BUMMER about it is..... There is no incentive to Subscribe to this game after the initial startup and the publisher is forced to scam for revenue!
PLEX can be purchased with ISK that was made from purchasing a SUB.
So again your argument is invalid.
Please get a life. Go play something you like
You have kept me somewhat entertained at work today, but it's time to go home now.
Bye Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:33:00 -
[148] - Quote
Tixam Quri wrote:Franco Stein wrote:Karsa Egivand wrote:Franco Stein wrote:PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference! Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ... PLEX originates using REAL Money ONLY.... ISK is earned in Game and is FAKE money ONLY.... That is the difference..... just because you can turn PLEX into ISK or buy an already in game PLEX for ISK doesn't make them the same. PLEX doesn't get in game unless someone paid REAL money for it! PLEX turned into ISK is a cheat code.... plain and simple, and a PAY (read again the description of PLEX) to WIN or with our simplified example = Pay for Advantage!!! The REAL BIGGEST BUMMER about it is..... There is no incentive to Subscribe to this game after the initial startup and the publisher is forced to scam for revenue! PLEX can be purchased with ISK that was made from purchasing a SUB. So again your argument is invalid. Please get a life. Go play something you like You have kept me somewhat entertained at work today, but it's time to go home now. Bye
Have a good night.... truly it's all in good fun... I am throwing the idea out to stir the pot and that is all....
|
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:42:00 -
[149] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:I think the issues is your definition of winning folks.
Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!
Winning in this game could mean all or none of the following and is certainly effected by RL Money being added to buy earned game items instead of actually earning them or buying them in game from earned efforts.... piracy, trading, whatever?
1) Seed money to trade with= I am a master trader, all I need is a few billion ISK to control my market... let's PLEX it. 2) False value of time vs reward vs risk: My Tengu will cost me one hour of work time, let's role!!! I'll Just PLEX it. 3) Serious advantage in PVE game play of ALL sorts. With Plex I can buy ORCA's, Miners, Storming missions, etc..etc. 4) Legitimately beating a high score (personal or group).... in all areas of the game!
If all you think winning is .... surrounds blowing up another players rig... well, no one can help you.....
PLEX is no more an advantage than a player giving an alt isk which happens all the time. So I guess you want to get rid of alts as well. While you're at it I guess you'd want to get rid of the character market too, as that can be also seen as an advantage by some.
I don't use alts I also pay by sub even though I don't have to. I have more isk than I know what to do with at this moment so buying PLEX would not benefit me one bit if the goal was to sell for isk. Any advantage you might gain is limited by the skills that your character has trained. But in the grand scheme of things the advantage you would gain is small certainly not enough to worry about.
So even I think you're really making a mountain out of a molehill. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15285
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:48:00 -
[150] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:You puzzle me?
What does buying something in JITA have to do with Buying ISK via a real life transaction to get a TIme Code to sell to get ISK. It has to do with how you're skipping over the very important part of where the ISK and characters are coming from.
When you use ISK to buy a PLEX or a character (or vice versa, or any combination thereof), all that's happening is that you're transferring in-game assets. My ISK for your PLEX. My character for your ISK. My PLEX for your characterGǪ (actually that isn't allowed GÇö we have to go through the medium of ISK to make that happen). All of it already has to exist in-game for the trade to be made.
If no-one has taken the time to create the ISK, then there will be nothing to sell your PLEX for. It doesn't matter how low you're willing to go GÇö you can't sell it. You gain zero ISK. Conversely, it doesn't matter how much ISK you have GÇö if no-one has created a PLEX, you are up a certain creek without a paddle and you will not be able to GÇ£play for freeGÇ¥ any more no matter what. Finally, and in exactly the same way, unless someone has spent the two years required, there will be no 50M SP character for you to buy, and you can have every ISK and PLEX in the database GÇö you're not getting a 50M SP character.
It is all in-game assets that other players have produced and are willing to sell to you. They are no different than Neutron Blaster Cannon IIs. Buying any of those don't buy you any more GÇ£winGÇ¥ than buying a rack of NBCIIs does: you only get what other people are willing to sell you, and you only get stuff that already exists in the game because people have followed the standard rules for creating them, using the standard rules that balance that creation process. There are no exploits; no cheats; nothing but an exchange of effort and time.
You can't buy any GÇ£winGÇ¥ because then someone else would have already won the game with the GÇ£winGÇ¥ you're trying to buy. If they did, why on earth would they be selling it to you? Maybe it's because it doesn't actually GÇ£winGÇ¥ anything so buying it can't be P2W. There is no sudden advantage gained through any of the processes you describe because they have all been in the game for ages and/or are already balanced out by the restrictions on creating them GÇö restrictions that apply equally to everyone. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
|
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 23:52:00 -
[151] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Tixam Quri wrote:
PLEX trade for ~550mil isk or more.
People are not winning with that amount.
They are learning valuable (read: costly) lessons sooner rather than later.
People that are established in game (read and think about this next part carefully) DO NOT NEED TO SELL PLEX TO GET MONEY TO WIN.
So again, let's be perfectly clear here.
You are talking out your arse
The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where? Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts.
Okay listen Hodor i give it another try.
The PLEX is simply payed for by another person. Nobody plays for "free". It is the equivalent of paying for my buddies EVE sub with my CC. Only by PLEX people can "borrow" other peoples credit cards to pay for their sub and compensate them for their costs with ISK. It is an ingame prepaid card if you want to see it like that. If there would be no PLEX, people would just do it out of game on some player run trade forums. Same happens with prepaid game time codes in other games. Sell WOW timecode or whatever crap game and receive gold, happens all the time. P2W? Not everybody has a credit card you know...
I know A TON of "established" players who pay with their cards for their subs since they blow up all their earned ISK in PVP. They only rat or explore to pay for their toys.
You need to simply educated yourself a little bit about EVE demographics. Young players don`t need (nobody needs to infact) to sell PLEX since they can barely fly anything and can earn the ISK they need fairly fast as small ships are rather cheap. As you progress in your skills and start to fly more expensive stuff you also have more and better income. Once you are "established" you earn so much ingame that you can easily burn some shiny stuff in PVP if you want to and still be able to fill up your pockets again quickly.
In all my EVE years i was able to afford to fly whatever i wanted without selling a single PLEX and lost a fair share of stuff in PVP. Never had problems to earn the money back. You can make money extremely easy in EVE even as a noob. If my dread gets killed today i could buy myself a new one in about two or three days assuming i would be almost broke and only my Tengu is left in the hangar.
Also PLEX are used for a multitude of other things. Adding game time to your account is just one of many. You simply cannot buy the experience needed to do stuff "good" in EVE. Don`t even think about "winning for PLEX"..that is the most hilarious thing ever.
If you really think PLEX is P2W then i wish you very much to stumble about a P2W pilot once. Those are also known as loot pinatas as they sit in completely overfitted ships with no idea what is going on whatsoever.
See? That is some easy cash right there for you to make. Make him go pop and harvest the remains. You could even buy yourself a PLEX or two and use them yourself with that shiny P2W loot! Imagine that! You can actually KILL a (wannabe) P2W officer fitted dude (since PLEX can`t buy experience), loot his wreck, sell the loot, buy your own PLEX to play for free! And you killed him without spending a single PLEX in the first place!!! What heresy is that!
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
259
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 00:41:00 -
[152] - Quote
I think I figured out an appropriate TL;DR for this thread.
"QQ, it's not fair. Everything should be based around one character per person, and all should be equal. It's not fair that others can afford more stuff and more characters than me. I demand true space communism. QQ."
That about right? |
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 00:43:00 -
[153] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I think I figured out an appropriate TL;DR for this thread.
"QQ, it's not fair. Everything should be based around one character per person, and all should be equal. It's not fair that others can afford more stuff and more characters than me. I demand true space communism. QQ."
That about right?
Spot on. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:08:00 -
[154] - Quote
I thought I was over it, but you keep just making mistakes over and over and have a tremendously warped (pun intended) understanding of FAIR Gaming and Game play that is designed to be unfair..
LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR....
ADDING even ONE Cent to a game using REAL money for any GEAR or Character Advantage PERIOD is cheating, when another player has to skill or EARN it in game. The advantage goes to the person who just Bought it... if the advantage is time, then they get it.. if the advantage is the ability to control a market, then they get it.... if the advantage is to just sit in a stupid ship and be a big shot in local, then they get it..... not by merit, but buying it... .. Real MONEY should only be added for additional content, not advantage! if you think PLEX doesn't equal advantage then you're just stupid and need to go back to school and study, or you just focus on ONE part of the game and that's how cool your gang is.
Second.... If you think paying for your personal Subscription using PLEX bought with FAKE money is "YOU" contributing to the game developers pockets, you are WRONG... but, you blowing up the guy who got suckered into buying the PLEX with RL money is in FACT helping CCP... so more power to you!! But "YOU" like so many others who are fighting for PLEX not for the sake of what is right, but for what is FREE or easy!!!! CCP doesn't need YOU to help them blow ships up, they can just make NPC's harder, or do what they have already done and remove PVP for the masses, and make it extremely difficult not to lose your ship in PVP zones.
"You ALL are WRONG", but I still believe in you!!
Defend your FREE ticket folks, your EASY pass... it's all fake anyway! ... it has killed this game.
ONCE AGain.....
I can buy Characters, I can buy GEAR, I can buy anything is this game with real life money..... ANYTHING without earning it!!!! If I suck at playing, I CAN Buy a better player to do it for me........ If I amass Billions, which most lifers do.... I don't have to Pay anymore, or I wonder why should I pay?
If you don't use PLEX, then you are contibuting. If you use PLEX you are a cheat and a user....plain and simple... is that clear enough!
Let's play chess, I will just buy as many Queens as I can afford to kick your tail...... I will just PLEX it ! If I suck at chess but still want to win, I will hire a better player or buy a computer!! When the bills are due for the rental of the chess board, I will just defer the cost to the other players, but demand the same game play because I am somehow helping in the long run by being wonderful.
|
Casirio
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
476
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:09:00 -
[155] - Quote
******* GD ******* mororn ******* stupid |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:15:00 -
[156] - Quote
Casirio wrote:******* GD ******* mororn ******* stupid
Another example of a well educated soul who uses too big of words to comprehend... |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
259
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:16:00 -
[157] - Quote
I like your chess analogy, actually. Here's the secret to beating someone at chess who can afford more queens than you in a P2W situation: get the **** up and walk away.
o7m8 |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:21:00 -
[158] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I like your chess analogy, actually. Here's the secret to beating someone at chess who can afford more queens than you in a P2W situation: get the **** up and walk away.
o7m8
Thank you.... but i am off work now and I am done trolling you all..
I totally USE PLEX to sub all my accounts, why in the world would I pay for them?
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
259
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:33:00 -
[159] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I like your chess analogy, actually. Here's the secret to beating someone at chess who can afford more queens than you in a P2W situation: get the **** up and walk away.
o7m8 Thank you.... but i am off work now and I am done trolling you all.. I totally USE PLEX to sub all my accounts, why in the world would I pay for them? Because you have a job that isn't minimum wage bottomfeeding, and your hourly rate irl is worth more than the time invested to farm the ISK for a PLEX? :) |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
136
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:42:00 -
[160] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: I thought I was over it, but you keep just making mistakes over and over and have a tremendously warped (pun intended) understanding of FAIR Gaming and Game play that is designed to be unfair..
LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR....
ADDING even ONE Cent to a game using REAL money for any GEAR or Character Advantage PERIOD is cheating, when another player has to skill or EARN it in game. The advantage goes to the person who just Bought it... if the advantage is time, then they get it.. if the advantage is the ability to control a market, then they get it.... if the advantage is to just sit in a stupid ship and be a big shot in local, then they get it..... not by merit, but buying it... .. Real MONEY should only be added for additional content, not advantage! if you think PLEX doesn't equal advantage then you're just stupid and need to go back to school and study, or you just focus on ONE part of the game and that's how cool your gang is.
It's CCPs game, I think I'll leave it to CCP to decide what is cheating and what is not. As CCP allows it it's not cheating. You're so hung up on this time advantage, but this games been going for 10 years, older characters already have a huge advantage in this respect. So it really doesn't matter that much. If it was a game that had just been released I might even agree with you in part but it's not.
Franco Stein wrote: Second.... If you think paying for your personal Subscription using PLEX bought with FAKE money is "YOU" contributing to the game developers pockets, you are WRONG... but, you blowing up the guy who got suckered into buying the PLEX with RL money is in FACT helping CCP... so more power to you!! But "YOU" like so many others who are fighting for PLEX not for the sake of what is right, but for what is FREE or easy!!!! CCP doesn't need YOU to help them blow ships up, they can just make NPC's harder, or do what they have already done and remove PVP for the masses, and make it extremely difficult not to lose your ship in PVP zones.
They are contributing to the developers pockets, they produce isk that is used to buy PLEX, allowing CCP to be able to sell the PLEX which generates currency for CCP whilst keeping currency out of the hands of RMTers. So they're actually contributing in a very positive way.
Franco Stein wrote: "You ALL are WRONG", but I still believe in you!!
Defend your FREE ticket folks, your EASY pass... it's all fake anyway! ... it has killed this game.
I just did in the statement I made above this one.
Franco Stein wrote: ONCE AGain.....
I can buy Characters, I can buy GEAR, I can buy anything is this game with real life money..... ANYTHING without earning it!!!! If I suck at playing, I CAN Buy a better player to do it for me........ If I amass Billions, which most lifers do.... I don't have to Pay anymore, or I wonder why should I pay?
If you don't use PLEX, then you are contibuting. If you use PLEX you are a cheat and a user....plain and simple... is that clear enough!
I always pay a sub and I've purchased PLEX from CCP in the past, so by your definition that makes me a contributing cheat. Well coming from you, I think I could live with that.
Franco Stein wrote: Let's play chess, I will just buy as many Queens as I can afford to kick your tail...... I will just PLEX it ! If I suck at chess but still want to win, I will hire a better player or buy a computer!! When the bills are due for the rental of the chess board, I will just defer the cost to the other players, but demand the same game play because I am somehow helping in the long run by being wonderful.
I see you're still trying to make a mountain out of that molehill.
|
|
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 02:16:00 -
[161] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:I think the issues is your definition of winning folks.
Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!
Winning in this game could mean all or none of the following and is certainly effected by RL Money being added to buy earned game items instead of actually earning them or buying them in game from earned efforts.... piracy, trading, whatever?
1) Seed money to trade with= I am a master trader, all I need is a few billion ISK to control my market... let's PLEX it. 2) False value of time vs reward vs risk: My Tengu will cost me one hour of work time, let's role!!! I'll Just PLEX it. 3) Serious advantage in PVE game play of ALL sorts. With Plex I can buy ORCA's, Miners, Storming missions, etc..etc. 4) Legitimately beating a high score (personal or group).... in all areas of the game!
If all you think winning is .... surrounds blowing up another players rig... well, no one can help you.....
Why do you care if someone defines winning as simply PLEXing their way to victory? You said it yourself: "Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!" You cite examples of alternative goals for players, goals that players set for themselves. Why do you care if they can take a shortcut? Why do you care that someone achieves their goals in a different way to you?
You've just openly stated that a player can set pretty much any goal in this sandbox MMO, but also sit there complaining that people can achieve those goals in ways you don't agree with. Your arguments are weird and confusing. |
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
21
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 02:25:00 -
[162] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: Defend your FREE ticket folks, your EASY pass... it's all fake anyway! ... it has killed this game.
When PLEX were introduced at the end of 2008, the number of subscriptions was ~275,000. At the beginning of this year, that number reached 500,000.
Oh, and because of PLEX, the RMT sites have an effective cap on what they can charge. Removing the cap would make the RMT folks happy. Why do you want to make RMTers happy? The Nosy Gamer - Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength - Eric Hoffer |
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 02:28:00 -
[163] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:PLEX originates using REAL Money ONLY.... Correct.
Quote:ISK is earned in Game and is FAKE money ONLY.... Yup. Still with you there.
Quote:That is the difference..... just because you can turn PLEX into ISK or buy an already in game PLEX for ISK doesn't make them the same. PLEX doesn't get in game unless someone paid REAL money for it! Correct. We have established that PLEX and ISK are indeed two different things.
Quote:PLEX turned into ISK is a cheat code Wait, what? This is an issue I take with many of your posts. You take little logical steps, careful explaining your train of thought then WHAM! Logical leap in a completely unexpected direction with no explanation whatsoever.
You've just explained to us that ISK is an in-game currency and have also explained that the in-game item called PLEX can be purchased for real money, effectively providing a legitimate method for acquiring ISK from real world currency. This is fine. Then, for no reason at all and without any qualification, it's labelled a cheat. Would you care to explain why you feel buying ISK with real cash is a cheat?
Quote:The REAL BIGGEST BUMMER about it is..... There is no incentive to Subscribe to this game after the initial startup and the publisher is forced to scam for revenue! Of course there's an incentive to subscribe. Not everyone wants to or can afford to pay for their accounts using ISK. In fact, thanks to the open, free market, this is actually impossible. |
Jeffrey Asher
Bunne
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 02:38:00 -
[164] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Trolls are just defending a F2P and a P2W scam.
2) I don't have RL cash (or just don't want to pay for stuff, cause I am a suck), so I grind or scam the above guy to make fake cash to play this game for Free and just take up server space. I make ten times more noise in the forums and in game, then people who pay the $140. buck a year to sub (Option 3 player). I troll any thread who speaks the truth!
1) How is PVP fun in this game for regular sub players? It's ridiculous! It costs you either countless hours of grinding or RL cash to even play against another F2P or P2W player and compete. Not only that, the odds of winning are so stacked to the side of the those two player type entrenched player base that force new players to bail or join the ridiculous. PVP means Player VS Player, if you don't know the term! This game has NO SUCH gaming option. It's player against entrenched players!!!
Well I am a new player who has not a lot of RL time to invest in the game due to work and family, and can't imagine ever having the resources to buy Plex with ISK due to limited game time. I don't particularly want to buy Plex with RL cash either, I'd rather see what I can accomplish in-game on my own merits.
To answer 2 of your points:
2) These players are part of what keeps me logging in every day - it's endlessly entertaining. Best forums and in-game chat in any game, ever.
1) As newbie I expect do die when I soon launch into PVP - a lot. I expect to get beaten by more experienced players who are that because they have been - playing for a long time and are "entrenched". I expect to learn from that, start to be able to recognize ship types and usual fits, who is likely to have some support hidden nearby if I try to PVP them etc, and then have a chance at winning eventually. I don't have an expectation that I would start winning straight away. And what game doesn't stack the odds on the side of someone who has played for longer? I doubt a lvl 1 character in any MMO is going to win against a lvl 20 character.
The whole point of a sandbox game is that people can play any way they want, and an economy evolves around that. Why limit people who have put in the hours to develop industry or other cashflow businesses, or spend long hours PVPing or exploring each month to buy Plex with ISK, from playing the way they want? Or why stop me from buying a Plex with RL cash, buying a battlecruiser I am not ready to fly properly and losing that first time I undock if I want to be a fool? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15286
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 02:43:00 -
[165] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:ADDING even ONE Cent to a game using REAL money for any GEAR or Character Advantage PERIOD is cheating Good thing, then, that nothing of the kind exists in EVE.
Quote:If you think paying for your personal Subscription using PLEX bought with FAKE money is "YOU" contributing to the game developers pockets, you are GǪcompletely correct. You are creating the demand that makes people buy PLEX and give the developers more money than they would get if you were subscribing.
Quote:I can buy Characters, I can buy GEAR, I can buy anything is this game with real life money. Nope. Or, well, you can, but you'll have to do it the illegitimate way, which means you're likely to end up banned and/or with a negative wallet. If you want to stay out of the GMs' sights, all you can ever buy is game time, be it through a subscription or a PLEX.
Quote:Let's play chess, I will just buy as many Queens as I can afford to kick your tail. GǪaaaaand you've just described something that cannot happen in EVE, so your attempt at a simile has gone off the rails and says nothing about either game.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 03:32:00 -
[166] - Quote
I just got home and found that you all are so entertaining that I can't give this up.
ROSEWALKER = Just because there are more Subs doesn't mean it's a better game with server lag and "Can't get to Jita" fun... more subs also doesn't mean exclusively that everyone is doing so due to the cheat code.
SIR MACH = PLEX is a cheat because NO game should allow a player to gain advantage using Real money in a true Player VS Player game..... Let's rock!!! = I don't have a shinny and I don't want to grind for it, so i just pull my wallet out and buy it. In this game Ships, modules, etc.. are GEAR == do you get it! GEAR in EVERY OTHER Game is earned and not bought with RL Money. .... Granted knowing what to do with that GEAR is subject and takes time.. but Gear is earned.... PLEX does not EARN you GEAR, it BUYS you that GEAR. That is why it is a Cheat Code.
TIPPIA = You post, yet you do not see..... PLEX adds many many CENTS to this game.... Let's look at the above example again. Let's also add the Character Bazaar Again..... If I want to buy a toon that can fly any ship I can USING REAL LIFE MONEY in the form of PLEX Turned into ISK..... IF I earn that ISK in game using my efforts, then you are correct, but PLEASE just remove the option that let's me Cheat and it's called PLEX..... Don't let me Buy this PLEX from online VENDORS in the form of a GTC for $35. for two..... othewise I will be forced to do it because I WANT IT NOW... and I am too bad of a player to earn it or win it with my poorly fitted scams in game..... Visit that Character BAZAAR then repost... Those characters are being bought and sold using ISK, which is either earned or Bought using RL GTC's
I will play as long as you all are blind... someone needs to preach the gospel, and it might as well me the handsome Mr. Stein. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15290
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 03:45:00 -
[167] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:I just got home and found that you all are so entertaining that I can't give this up. So you admit that you're only trolling then. Goodie.
Quote:SIR MACH = PLEX is a cheat because NO game should allow a player to gain advantage using Real money in a true Player VS Player game. GǪso why is PLEX a cheat? It doesn't let anyone gain any kind of advantage, you know.
Quote:TIPPIA = You post, yet you do not see..... PLEX adds many many CENTS to this game. Incorrect. PLEX only ever removes money from the game. That is your fundamental problem here: you have no idea how PLEX actually work. You also have no idea how the game economy works. Put the two together, and the explanation for your incorrect premise becomes clear: because you assume things work in ways they simply do not work. It's not that I don't see GÇö it's that you're hallucinating.
Quote:Let's look at the above example again. Let's also add the Character Bazaar Again..... If I want to buy a toon that can fly any ship I can USING REAL LIFE MONEY in the form of PLEX Turned into ISK. No. You can't turn PLEX into ISK.
Moreover, buying a character does not buy you any kind of GÇ£winGÇ¥ GÇö it's the same kind of collection of skills that everyone else has, and it has been created the same way all other characters have. It does not suddenly gain any super powers just because it's been on the bazaar, and it will still be beaten just as much as before (or, more likely, even more than before if it's a new player who's has been tricked into believing that he can pay to win). All you're doing is transferring assets that are already in the game. Aside from the price tag and production time, it's no different than buying large blaster turrets. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose
132
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 04:05:00 -
[168] - Quote
ISK is simply three letters that people get hung up on. I could dump 4bil into a pvp ship, using PLEX to buy ISK. That, however is not going to make me a better pvper. More often than not, I have seen PLEX used to do things like help fund a corp-wide pvp roam, set up a POS, or something similar. Yea, people trade in them. Yea, people buy the specifically for cash flow. And yes, people sub with them. Myself amongst them. But if you truly believe in any way, shape, or form, that ISK somehow makes you "better" at EVE, you are delusional. Information, the meta-game, and warfare are what truly fuels the game. ISK is just the lubricant that keeps the cog turning. And all PLEX does is keep a constant supply of lubricant flowing, allowing for more players, more unique instances between players, and a far more developed meta-game than most other "sandbox" games.
Essentially OP, you have only suggested grinding the machine to a halt, cutting off the things that provide content, by removing the necessary amount of lubricant.
Hell, in that case, we need CCP in here. Time to open the EVE Gate, and let the Terrans rip us to shreds. We could make it a week of live events, and then, in grand ceremony, shut the server down.
Tell me, what good would your $14.95 be towards playing EVE then, smart one? |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 04:19:00 -
[169] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:ISK is simply three letters that people get hung up on. I could dump 4bil into a pvp ship, using PLEX to buy ISK. That, however is not going to make me a better pvper. More often than not, I have seen PLEX used to do things like help fund a corp-wide pvp roam, set up a POS, or something similar. Yea, people trade in them. Yea, people buy the specifically for cash flow. And yes, people sub with them. Myself amongst them. But if you truly believe in any way, shape, or form, that ISK somehow makes you "better" at EVE, you are delusional. Information, the meta-game, and warfare are what truly fuels the game. ISK is just the lubricant that keeps the cog turning. And all PLEX does is keep a constant supply of lubricant flowing, allowing for more players, more unique instances between players, and a far more developed meta-game than most other "sandbox" games.
Essentially OP, you have only suggested grinding the machine to a halt, cutting off the things that provide content, by removing the necessary amount of lubricant.
Hell, in that case, we need CCP in here. Time to open the EVE Gate, and let the Terrans rip us to shreds. We could make it a week of live events, and then, in grand ceremony, shut the server down.
Tell me, what good would your $14.95 be towards playing EVE then, smart one?
That would be AMAZING..... and would reboot the whole system, so EVERYONE starts fresh with exciting ideas and vision.... of course if CCP didn't go bankrupt first.. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3743
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:36:00 -
[170] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:ISK is simply three letters that people get hung up on. I could dump 4bil into a pvp ship, using PLEX to buy ISK. That, however is not going to make me a better pvper. More often than not, I have seen PLEX used to do things like help fund a corp-wide pvp roam, set up a POS, or something similar. Yea, people trade in them. Yea, people buy the specifically for cash flow. And yes, people sub with them. Myself amongst them. But if you truly believe in any way, shape, or form, that ISK somehow makes you "better" at EVE, you are delusional. Information, the meta-game, and warfare are what truly fuels the game. ISK is just the lubricant that keeps the cog turning. And all PLEX does is keep a constant supply of lubricant flowing, allowing for more players, more unique instances between players, and a far more developed meta-game than most other "sandbox" games.
Essentially OP, you have only suggested grinding the machine to a halt, cutting off the things that provide content, by removing the necessary amount of lubricant.
Hell, in that case, we need CCP in here. Time to open the EVE Gate, and let the Terrans rip us to shreds. We could make it a week of live events, and then, in grand ceremony, shut the server down.
Tell me, what good would your $14.95 be towards playing EVE then, smart one? At least then there will be no GSF. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
TEST Defence, Please Ignore |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15290
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:44:00 -
[171] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:If you pay money to CCP it should only be to subscribe to have access to the content of this game and THAT IS ALL. Congratulations. You have finally understood what PLEX is, and why it isn't F2P or P2W.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:52:00 -
[172] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Franco Stein wrote:If you pay money to CCP it should only be to subscribe to have access to the content of this game and THAT IS ALL. Congratulations. You have finally understood what PLEX is, and why it isn't F2P or P2W.
Tippia you are saying the sky is RED over and over again...
If I buy a GTC and covert it to ISK via the "Process" and buy a faction fitted ship to go battle an exact new player just like me who is flying the non faction version of the same ship.... I am playing with an advantage due to my RL money transaction.... I didn't use the GTC to subscribe for this particular transaction.... I just bought a faction fit that has better stats then the T1...... i cheated!
If I see a great deal in Motsu on Trit that a guy is giving away at 3.50 ISK per for a huge quantity of 100 million units, but I don't have the ISK in my wallet to make the deal in time.... so I quickly buy a GTC and "Process it" to ISK..so I can make the deal..... I cheated that guy who worked for the ISK, had it in his wallet and is going to login in two minutes to see the deal.....
Pull PLEX.. |
TharOkha
0asis Group
537
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:53:00 -
[173] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:.. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate)
Dude, 17 usd per hr? Not in every country in the world. Why are most RMT from china or eastern europe? I earn 4 EUR per hr myself and Im not from China or Russia. For me PLEXing by isk is more interesting than paying by my whole day salary. Because i earn more isk in game than i can spend, its more reasonable to pay by isk. I can spend those 17 eur for something else irl.
GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
261
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:06:00 -
[174] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:.. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) Dude, 17 usd per hr? Not in every country in the world. Why are most RMT-ers from china or eastern europe? I earn 4 EUR per hr myself and Im not from China or Russia. So that means that i have to earn cca 130m per hour in game to make it reasonable. And 130/hr is nothing uncommon in EVE. For me PLEXing by isk is more interesting than paying by my whole day salary. Because i earn more isk in game than i can spend, its more reasonable to pay by isk. I can spend those 17 eur for something else irl. You make a very valid point, and price parity being what it is, I could see RMT guys making a very good living if they are located in poorer countries. That $50 US that most of us easily pay for a carton of cigs, or half of a tank of gas (or a couple billion ISK) could feed some Cambodian guy's family for a couple of weeks.
I was only speaking of my own personal situation. To make a bit of a comparison though, if I made what you do, living where I do, I wouldn't even be able to afford the cheapest housing available, let alone an internet connection to even play Eve with a PLEXed sub. Like I said, price parity is a *****. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
325
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:11:00 -
[175] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Tippia wrote:Franco Stein wrote:If you pay money to CCP it should only be to subscribe to have access to the content of this game and THAT IS ALL. Congratulations. You have finally understood what PLEX is, and why it isn't F2P or P2W. Tippia you are saying the sky is RED over and over again... If I buy a GTC and covert it to ISK via the "Process" and buy a faction fitted ship to go battle an exact new player just like me who is flying the non faction version of the same ship.... I am playing with an advantage due to my RL money transaction.... I didn't use the GTC to subscribe for this particular transaction.... I just bought a faction fit that has better stats then the T1...... i cheated! If I see a great deal in Motsu on Trit that a guy is giving away at 3.50 ISK per for a huge quantity of 100 million units, but I don't have the ISK in my wallet to make the deal in time.... so I quickly buy a GTC and "Process it" to ISK..so I can make the deal..... I cheated that guy who worked for the ISK, had it in his wallet and is going to login in two minutes to see the deal..... Pull PLEX..
So, in the second example given, you are cheating a theoretical person out of a theoretical profit, simply by using a CCP approved transaction? Nevermind that if you go around walking on eggshells to not "cheat" theoretical people, you will never undock, but hey.
That's not cheating, you just got there first. However you got the money for it is irrelevant. You could just as easily have borrowed it from your corp. He who hesitates...
Now, in your first example. That is also not cheating, because the other person has the same method available to them as well. ou might call it a P2W style advantage, but nothing about it is unfair or exclusive to you. Nor does it in any way guarantee victory, especially at low skill levels where you cannot leverage as much of the bonuses of a faction ship.
It's also not cheating because this advantage is not permanently available to you. In EVE, there is item loss on death, as you would call it in other games. Just like your gear dropped in Ultima Online, in EVE your ship goes poof, and your mods may or may not make it out. Having more money in the short term than someone else isn't the massive advantage you make it out to be. Access to a far higher revenue stream is also not a guarantee of victory, you can still be outplayed, or beaten by a player with better skills.
Cheating is breaking the rules. In a game, this typically refers to getting around the limitations imposed by the game client in some way, in other words hacking. Do you think that buying PLEX is as bad as hacking? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
309
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:22:00 -
[176] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Because i earn more isk in game than i can spend, its more reasonable to pay by isk. I can spend those 17 eur for something else irl.
And that's the crux of the problem in itself -- the availability of so much ISK, not only so much that players can use it to buy "free time", it causes hyper-inflation, as so much of it is in circulation.
2010 PLEX was selling for 250mil ISK. 2013 it's nearing 600mil in Jita. Yeah, w-a-y too much ISK in circulation. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15290
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:22:00 -
[177] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:If I buy a GTC and covert it to ISK No. You cannot convert GTC or PLEX to ISK. Until you understand this, everything you say is absolute and complete nonsense.
[quoteI am playing with an advantage due to my RL money transaction.[/quote]GǪexcept that you have no advantage. Your ship has the same stat as every other ship of its kind. Your character has the same skills as everyone else. Your RL money transaction has nothing to do with either of these, and your GǣadvantageGǥ is exactly the same as what everyone else has.
You have no advantage. Other people can do the exact same thing without paying for it.
Quote:If I see a great deal in Motsu on Trit that a guy is giving away at 3.50 ISK per for a huge quantity of 100 million units, but I don't have the ISK in my wallet to make the deal in time.... so I quickly buy a GTC and "Process it" to ISK..so I can make the deal..... I cheated that guy who worked for the ISK No, you didn't. If you did, then the guy who bought the same batch before you had a chance also cheated, even though he had personally ground all his ISK. Just because you got yours through trading doesn't mean it's illegitimate.
Again: you have no advantage. Other people can once more do the exact same thing without paying for it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
TharOkha
0asis Group
537
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:24:00 -
[178] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:TharOkha wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:.. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) Dude, 17 usd per hr? Not in every country in the world. Why are most RMT-ers from china or eastern europe? I earn 4 EUR per hr myself and Im not from China or Russia. So that means that i have to earn cca 130m per hour in game to make it reasonable. And 130/hr is nothing uncommon in EVE. For me PLEXing by isk is more interesting than paying by my whole day salary. Because i earn more isk in game than i can spend, its more reasonable to pay by isk. I can spend those 17 eur for something else irl. You make a very valid point, and price parity being what it is, I could see RMT guys making a very good living if they are located in poorer countries. That $50 US that most of us easily pay for a carton of cigs, or half of a tank of gas (or a couple billion ISK) could feed some Cambodian guy's family for a couple of weeks. I was only speaking of my own personal situation. To make a bit of a comparison though, if I made what you do, living where I do, I wouldn't even be able to afford the cheapest housing available, let alone an internet connection to even play Eve with a PLEXed sub. Like I said, price parity is a *****.
Exactly. In my country, my salary is enough to feed myself, to pay for bills, internet, apartment etc. But if you want to go global (like playing EVE, buying games movies or music) its just too expensive. Companies from west should realize that if they set prices globally ,for example 50 usd per game and in Europe they are sells it even more unfair (50 EUR is not 50 USD - downloadable contents are not goods that needs 1 or 2 year warranty) then they should not be annoyed by piracy. Because in some countries 50 usd is "nothing" but in other countries its more than they can earn per month GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:32:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:TharOkha wrote:Because i earn more isk in game than i can spend, its more reasonable to pay by isk. I can spend those 17 eur for something else irl. And that's the crux of the problem in itself -- the availability of so much ISK, not only so much that players can use it to buy "free time", it causes hyper-inflation, as so much of it is in circulation. 2010 PLEX was selling for 250mil ISK. 2013 it's nearing 600mil in Jita. Yeah, w-a-y too much ISK in circulation.
The inflation of the game is caused by the increased size of the playerbase since 3 years ago. More people making money, equals more money in circulation. Inflation is a natural result. Furthermore, ship costs have increased considerably to compensate. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:35:00 -
[180] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Exactly. In my country, my salary is enough to feed myself, to pay for bills, internet, apartment etc (in short = to live well). But if you want to go global (like playing EVE, buying games movies or music) its just too expensive. Companies from west should realize that if they set prices globally ,for example 50 usd per game and in Europe they are sells it even more unfair (50 EUR is not 50 USD - downloadable contents are not goods that needs 1 or 2 year warranty) then they should not be annoyed by piracy. Because in some countries 50 usd is "nothing" but in other countries its more than they can earn per month
But it's true for us Americans as well if we buy anything in Europe. The English pound is worth more than the US dollar. So if I buy something from the UK @ 50 pounds, it's going to cost me a pretty penny.
The other thing too is, since 9/11 US banks can add a surcharge to international transactions. My bank does this, so playing EvE costs me more than even WoW, because Blizzard is US based. CCP is in Iceland, and international rates applies. And I use the largest bank in the US, so it affects a-l-o-t of people in the US who also use the same bank (CCP, reading this???). They used to charge $2 extra, it's now lower, but it's not all peaches and cream in the US when buying abroad, too. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:40:00 -
[181] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Exactly. In my country, my salary is enough to feed myself, to pay for bills, internet, apartment etc (in short = to live well). But if you want to go global (like playing EVE, buying games movies or music) its just too expensive. Companies from west should realize that if they set prices globally ,for example 50 usd per game and in Europe they are sells it even more unfair (50 EUR is not 50 USD - downloadable contents are not goods that needs 1 or 2 year warranty) then they should not be annoyed by piracy. Because in some countries 50 usd is "nothing" but in other countries its more than they can earn per month I agree with you 100%. In fact, such is the reason why I firmly believe that globalization is destined for failure until a singular currency and pricing format comes about. Either that, or people stop being whiny vaginas every time someone figures out a way around the rigged system (piracy being a good example). |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:46:00 -
[182] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I agree with you 100%. In fact, such is the reason why I firmly believe that globalization is destined for failure until a singular currency and pricing format comes about.
The UK and the US will never agree to that.
The US would probably even goto war over it (we started the American Revolution over taxes alone). Same if the UN tries to be a global governing body.
The whole mess with the EURO shows that even Europe isn't ready for a universal currency (and England was wise to not join to bailout the mess). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:50:00 -
[183] - Quote
Tippia you are doing well to entertain in our banter.... you troll as well as l...
However . . . . Give me one last bit of your wisdom.
What do you think would happen if CCP did the following things.
1) Removed PLEX as a item completely from the game and did not replace it with something similar. 2) Limited the number of client apps that can load a single computer to just one. 3) Required that all accounts subscribe to the game or buy a non transferable GTC to actually add time to an account.
Would the game following in the footsteps of most of the Sony Games and lose, or would this community of players support it? Would you still enjoy the game with 200k real solo players, as opposed to the multi account players. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:57:00 -
[184] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I agree with you 100%. In fact, such is the reason why I firmly believe that globalization is destined for failure until a singular currency and pricing format comes about. The UK and the US will never agree to that. The US would probably even goto war over it (we started the American Revolution over taxes alone). Same if the UN tries to be a global governing body. The whole mess with the EURO shows that even Europe isn't ready for a universal currency (and England was wise to not join to bailout the mess). Honestly, all of that could have been avoided by just letting the countries with bloated national debts fail. Everyone likes to think it would cause some extinction level event, but in all reality, the average citizen of those countries wouldn't even realize it happened. Well, except for the dying government wailing that without them, all is lost. Hell, just look at Somalia. That place has been a hellhole for as long as anyone can remember. Now that it's government has lost any semblance of power, things actually started to improve for the population on an economic level. Of course, there are still areas of the country that are screwed, but the same could be said for anywhere really. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 06:59:00 -
[185] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Franco Stein wrote:Tippia wrote:Franco Stein wrote:If you pay money to CCP it should only be to subscribe to have access to the content of this game and THAT IS ALL. Congratulations. You have finally understood what PLEX is, and why it isn't F2P or P2W. Tippia you are saying the sky is RED over and over again... If I buy a GTC and covert it to ISK via the "Process" and buy a faction fitted ship to go battle an exact new player just like me who is flying the non faction version of the same ship.... I am playing with an advantage due to my RL money transaction.... I didn't use the GTC to subscribe for this particular transaction.... I just bought a faction fit that has better stats then the T1...... i cheated! If I see a great deal in Motsu on Trit that a guy is giving away at 3.50 ISK per for a huge quantity of 100 million units, but I don't have the ISK in my wallet to make the deal in time.... so I quickly buy a GTC and "Process it" to ISK..so I can make the deal..... I cheated that guy who worked for the ISK, had it in his wallet and is going to login in two minutes to see the deal..... Pull PLEX.. So, in the second example given, you are cheating a theoretical person out of a theoretical profit, simply by using a CCP approved transaction? Nevermind that if you go around walking on eggshells to not "cheat" theoretical people, you will never undock, but hey. That's not cheating, you just got there first. However you got the money for it is irrelevant. You could just as easily have borrowed it from your corp. He who hesitates... Now, in your first example. That is also not cheating, because the other person has the same method available to them as well. ou might call it a P2W style advantage, but nothing about it is unfair or exclusive to you. Nor does it in any way guarantee victory, especially at low skill levels where you cannot leverage as much of the bonuses of a faction ship. It's also not cheating because this advantage is not permanently available to you. In EVE, there is item loss on death, as you would call it in other games. Just like your gear dropped in Ultima Online, in EVE your ship goes poof, and your mods may or may not make it out. Having more money in the short term than someone else isn't the massive advantage you make it out to be. Access to a far higher revenue stream is also not a guarantee of victory, you can still be outplayed, or beaten by a player with better skills. Cheating is breaking the rules. In a game, this typically refers to getting around the limitations imposed by the game client in some way, in other words hacking. Do you think that buying PLEX is as bad as hacking?
i am in no way saying it is against any rules of CCP, it's just not gaming in a true sense. The fact that some players have more real life money that others is most often not a factor in PVP gaming. It's skill, effort, etc...... time put in...blah, blah...
in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game to get my rocks over another player who can't do the same..... Just because he has the right to buy ISK as well as I has no bearing when they do not have the means to do it in RL... Some people just don't go that far to kick arrss..... when it was just a fake kicking of the arrss in the first place.... the stakes are already stacked to the lifers, why make the new ones pay their way too?
The cheat is the advantage to privilege, not the actual skill involved to win........ Only the rich should play because it is in the rules..... okay!
|
TharOkha
0asis Group
537
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:04:00 -
[186] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:The fact that some players have more real life money that others is most often not a factor in PVP gaming. It's skill, effort, etc...... time put in...blah, blah...
Dude, i multi-boxing myself and for more than 3 years i didnt pay a cent to CCP. Im a succesfull trader in New Eden and i can earn for those accounts by isk.
Claiming that PLEX is buy to win is just stupid fallacy. PLEX just means that SOMEONE ELSE pays for my subs. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:05:00 -
[187] - Quote
Quote:in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game to get my rocks over another player who can't do the same..... Just because he has the right to buy ISK as well as I has no bearing when they do not have the means to do it in RL...
Equality of opportunity, not equality of result. If you, as you seem to, want equality of result, then you are simply not going to get it. If you put more in, you get more out, it's that simple.
If you have the same opportunities as everyone else, regardless of whether you take them or not, then it's fair. If they, for example, only let Caldari players sell PLEX on the market, that would unfair. But if the same opportunities are afforded to you, and for whatever reason you don't take them, then it's on you. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:08:00 -
[188] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote: i am in no way saying it is against any rules of CCP, it's just not gaming in a true sense. The fact that some players have more real life money that others is most often not a factor in PVP gaming. It's skill, effort, etc...... time put in...blah, blah...
in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game to get my rocks over another player who can't do the same..... Just because he has the right to buy ISK as well as I has no bearing when they do not have the means to do it in RL... Some people just don't go that far to kick arrss..... when it was just a fake kicking of the arrss in the first place.... the stakes are already stacked to the lifers, why make the new ones pay their way too?
The cheat is the advantage to privilege, not the actual skill involved to win........ Only the rich should play because it is in the rules..... okay!
You've not fought many Russians in Eve, have you? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15290
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:11:00 -
[189] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Tippia you are doing well to entertain in our banter.... you troll as well as l. Seeing as how you troll, and I don'tGǪ no.
Quote:What do you think would happen if CCP did the following things.
1) Removed PLEX as a item completely from the game and did not replace it with something similar. 2) Limited the number of client apps that can load a single computer to just one. 3) Required that all accounts subscribe to the game or buy a non transferable GTC to actually add time to an account. Crash and burn.
Quote:in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game GǪand in your examples, you don't, since you're talking about EVE. Your basic fallacy that you can somehow buy ISK remains. No-one in EVE has the right to buy ISK GÇö those who try get banned for breaking the rules. On top of this is the completely false notion that PLEX somehow lets you buy some form of GÇ£winGÇ¥, when, again all it does is give you the same stuff everyone else is using. So apparently, they won long before you even got thereGǪ
Quote:The cheat is the advantage to privilege, not the actual skill involved to win. GǪand as luck would have it, the stuff required to win is not in any way related to real money. PLEX gives no advantage since all it does is give you the exact same things you could have without paying for it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:25:00 -
[190] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I agree with you 100%. In fact, such is the reason why I firmly believe that globalization is destined for failure until a singular currency and pricing format comes about. The UK and the US will never agree to that. The US would probably even goto war over it (we started the American Revolution over taxes alone). Same if the UN tries to be a global governing body. The whole mess with the EURO shows that even Europe isn't ready for a universal currency (and England was wise to not join to bailout the mess). Honestly, all of that could have been avoided by just letting the countries with bloated national debts fail. Everyone likes to think it would cause some extinction level event, but in all reality, the average citizen of those countries wouldn't even realize it happened. Well, except for the dying government wailing that without them, all is lost. Hell, just look at Somalia. That place has been a hellhole for as long as anyone can remember. Now that it's government has lost any semblance of power, things actually started to improve for the population on an economic level. Of course, there are still areas of the country that are screwed, but the same could be said for anywhere really.
True but the crux is Europe is mostly socialist. And the concept of a universal currency works with capitalism. Socialism will bleed the bank dry (and the problem in places like Greece in the first place, that got into trouble by using the coffers as a way to employ people even). As long as Europe still clings to ideals that can't pay for itself (the state doesn't make money itself, a concept socialists don't understand, if there's no money it has to be taxed. If you tax 50% of the incomes to pay for the services, there's less disposable incomes. And it's disposable incomes that allows people to play games), a universal currency won't work. It will fail like the USSR failed, because socialism works at a state level, it doesn't work beyond it. Capitalism does and it's proven (the US is still standing and the economic world power, for at least upto 2050). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
|
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2522
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:28:00 -
[191] - Quote
...or make all of EvE free to play. Start sellin' some Aurem CNR's. WHO'S WITH ME?!
|
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2522
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:30:00 -
[192] - Quote
SELL IT TO THE BOTS! YARRR!
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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
398
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:31:00 -
[193] - Quote
Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.
Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:34:00 -
[194] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote: True but the crux is Europe is mostly socialist. And the concept of a universal currency works with capitalism. Socialism will bleed the bank dry (and the problem in places like Greece in the first place, that got into trouble by using the coffers as a way to employ people even). As long as Europe still clings to ideals that can't pay for itself (the state doesn't make money itself, a concept socialists don't understand, if there's no money it has to be taxed. If you tax 50% of the incomes to pay for the services, there's less disposable incomes. And it's disposable incomes that allows people to play games), a universal currency won't work. It will fail like the USSR failed, because socialism works at a state level, it doesn't work beyond it. Capitalism does and it's proven (the US is still standing and the economic world power, for at least upto 2050).
I will definitely agree with you there. The only real problem that pure capitalism has is it's bad PR image. "It's not fair" and all of that garbage. The US didn't really start stumbling as an economic power until it started trying to implement various Socialist policies. However, said stumble could be attributed to other things, but they have had less of an impact than the aforementioned policies. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:40:00 -
[195] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.
And that's the problem with EvE itself.
It costs too much to play as the game is designed.
To play you need the PLEX, which brings up the ugly head of...P2W.
Because if you're not exchanging $$$ for it, you're literally a pixel slave to earn it in game.
It's how CCP keeps getting $$$ as well, because everything in EvE has a high price tag to it -- from skill books to the transaction fees, all designed to spend so you will buy PLEX for ISK (or other features all tied into it).
Rat chasing his tail deal. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:43:00 -
[196] - Quote
Quote:The US didn't really start stumbling as an economic power until it started trying to implement various Socialist policies. However, said stumble could be attributed to other things, but they have had less of an impact than the aforementioned policies.
No, you had it right the first time, the socialist style policies.
Well, that, and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Donora_smog
This "disaster" was what eventually caused the creation of the Environmental Protection Act, along with a number of bizarre and nonsensical restrictions on the steel and mining industries. Eventually, this lead to the death of American heavy manufacturing, and certainly crippled the economic activity of the East Coast. The price of automobiles, for instance, tripled (even taking inflation into account, their objective price tripled) due to the long term effects of the steel shortage. Which is why we have crappy plastic in our modern cars.
This one incident, never seen before or ever repeated again, due to a freak weather accident, caused the deaths of less than two dozen people. But in their name, we heedlessly destroyed millions of jobs, crippled several staple American industries, and created one of the biggest organizations of red tape and needless bureaucracy in human history, costing untold billions of dollars.
*slowclap* Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2522
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 07:54:00 -
[197] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:The US didn't really start stumbling as an economic power until it started trying to implement various Socialist policies. However, said stumble could be attributed to other things, but they have had less of an impact than the aforementioned policies. No, you had it right the first time, the socialist style policies. Well, that, and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Donora_smogThis "disaster" was what eventually caused the creation of the Environmental Protection Act, along with a number of bizarre and nonsensical restrictions on the steel and mining industries. Eventually, this lead to the death of American heavy manufacturing, and certainly crippled the economic activity of the East Coast. The price of automobiles, for instance, tripled (even taking inflation into account, their objective price tripled) due to the long term effects of the steel shortage. Which is why we have crappy plastic in our modern cars. This one incident, never seen before or ever repeated again, due to a freak weather accident, caused the deaths of less than two dozen people. But in their name, we heedlessly destroyed millions of jobs, crippled several staple American industries, and created one of the biggest organizations of red tape and needless bureaucracy in human history, costing untold billions of dollars. *slowclap* Hmmm... I actually remember big steel collapsing. The reason they collapsed was the Japanese were producing huge sheets of flawless metal in robotic factories, and american steel was crappy and full of rust and other flaws. Nobody wanted it. Just FYI.
|
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
398
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:03:00 -
[198] - Quote
By the way, while you guys are talking about socialism vs capitalism, you should stop by a small country town and see what pure capitalism is, behold Wal-Mart, and nothing else. That is the end result of pure unrestricted capitalism. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:04:00 -
[199] - Quote
Quote:Hmmm... I actually remember big steel collapsing. The reason they collapsed was the Japanese were producing huge sheets of flawless metal in robotic factories, and american steel was crappy and full of rust and other flaws. Nobody wanted it. Just FYI.
Yeah, pretty much. But it wasn't just competition that killed them, the groundwork for those failures were laid decades prior. Quality control takes a dive when regulatory actions are too heavy. At that point, capitalism is out the door. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
399
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:11:00 -
[200] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.
Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.
No , there is a winner and everyone else is a loser, including the employees. In my town, there is a walmart and some odds and ends business that covers what walmart just won't sell. So the consumer has little choice (though I do have amazon.com) and that also goes for employment choices. The only thing you can really do is move. |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:15:00 -
[201] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.
Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.
No , there is a winner and everyone else is a loser, including the employees. In my town, there is a walmart and some odds and ends business that covers what walmart just won't sell. So the consumer has little choice (though I do have amazon.com) and that also goes for employment choices. The only thing you can really do is move.
Move is still a choice. Amazon is still a choice. You don't literally have to work there, either. (people lived there in the first place for reasons besides WalMart, so unless WalMart killed the town's fundamental basis for existing, it's still there)
Or are you saying that you'd really rather have the old "Mom and Pop" 15% mark up for goods and services? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:15:00 -
[202] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.
Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.
No , there is a winner and everyone else is a loser, including the employees. In my town, there is a walmart and some odds and ends business that covers what walmart just won't sell. So the consumer has little choice (though I do have amazon.com) and that also goes for employment choices. The only thing you can really do is move. Then if it bothers you that much, move. I fail to see the problem here. Life is full of choices, some more difficult than others. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1526
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:18:00 -
[203] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:By the way, while you guys are talking about socialism vs capitalism, you should stop by a small country town and see what pure capitalism is, behold Wal-Mart, and nothing else. That is the end result of pure unrestricted capitalism.
Believe it or not, socialism vs. capitalism is a false dichotomy unless one or the other is allowed to prevail to the exclusion of all moderation. Then there is no "vs", there is just the complete enslavement of the population to one extreme or the other - in socialism, it's to the government; in capitalism, it's to the corporations. The enslavement might not be obvious on the surface, but it will exist nonetheless.
However, in moderation, there is nothing wrong with a little capitalism, and there is nothing wrong with a little socialism. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1526
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:20:00 -
[204] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.
Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.
No , there is a winner and everyone else is a loser, including the employees. In my town, there is a walmart and some odds and ends business that covers what walmart just won't sell. So the consumer has little choice (though I do have amazon.com) and that also goes for employment choices. The only thing you can really do is move. Then if it bothers you that much, move. I fail to see the problem here. Life is full of choices, some more difficult than others.
For some people, especially those with limited employment options, simply moving is not always financially viable. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
400
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:29:00 -
[205] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.
Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.
No , there is a winner and everyone else is a loser, including the employees. In my town, there is a walmart and some odds and ends business that covers what walmart just won't sell. So the consumer has little choice (though I do have amazon.com) and that also goes for employment choices. The only thing you can really do is move. Move is still a choice. Amazon is still a choice. You don't literally have to work there, either. (people lived there in the first place for reasons besides WalMart, so unless WalMart killed the town's fundamental basis for existing, it's still there) Or are you saying that you'd really rather have the old "Mom and Pop" 15% mark up for goods and services?
That's just it, in alot of these small towns, they did kill the fundamental base for existing. Mom and pop stores may have been more expensive, but there was an entire localized supply chain that created better paying jobs than what walmart offers. While it is the local people's fault for supporting it in the first place, I don't think people realized they were slitting their own throats until it was too late. Walmart pretty much squeezes local and nationwide vendors to sell their products for mere pennies or they simply wont carry it, they pay their workers jack and they sell their stuff incredibly cheap because of it. Once its in and they crush all the local markets (including suppliers), everyone has no place to shop but walmart, and really they're too poor to shop anywhere else, and its the only place to work, unless you like driving 50 miles to the nearest city just to get to work.
Moving is an option, but its pretty crappy to tell people who've lived somewhere all their lives if they don't like it they can pack up their stuff and move. I guess its ok though, the more people that get into the city, the less influence the red states have. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:29:00 -
[206] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: For some people, especially those with limited employment options, simply moving is not always financially viable.
A problem not worth solving, is a problem not worth complaining about. Once upon a time, I went for a bit over a week without food to get myself out of a place I didn't want to be in anymore. I don't do well with excuses. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1526
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:35:00 -
[207] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: For some people, especially those with limited employment options, simply moving is not always financially viable.
A problem not worth solving, is a problem not worth complaining about. Once upon a time, I went for a bit over a week without food to get myself out of a place I didn't want to be in anymore. I don't do well with excuses.
It was your own choice to starve yourself. No one should be expected to follow that kind of example. And who are you that anyone should care what you categorise as an 'excuse' anyway? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
400
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:36:00 -
[208] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:By the way, while you guys are talking about socialism vs capitalism, you should stop by a small country town and see what pure capitalism is, behold Wal-Mart, and nothing else. That is the end result of pure unrestricted capitalism. Believe it or not, socialism vs. capitalism is a false dichotomy unless one or the other is allowed to prevail to the exclusion of all moderation. Then there is no "vs", there is just the complete enslavement of the population to one extreme or the other - in socialism, it's to the government; in capitalism, it's to the corporations. The enslavement might not be obvious on the surface, but it will exist nonetheless. However, in moderation, there is nothing wrong with a little capitalism, and there is nothing wrong with a little socialism.
Oh, I know. I didn't mean to make it sound like a vs thing, that's why I said pure, unrestricted capitalism. I should have added that the two need each other and that's why the society works like it does. Every now and then the balance shifts too far one way and it needs to be fixed.
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:38:00 -
[209] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: For some people, especially those with limited employment options, simply moving is not always financially viable.
A problem not worth solving, is a problem not worth complaining about. Once upon a time, I went for a bit over a week without food to get myself out of a place I didn't want to be in anymore. I don't do well with excuses. It was your own choice to starve yourself. No one should be expected to follow that kind of example. And who are you that anyone should care what you categorise as an 'excuse' anyway? I am me, and therefore, my opinion is the only one that matters to me. I don't exactly have a strong sense of empathy, and quite frankly, I find those that do to be rather pitiful. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1527
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:41:00 -
[210] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: For some people, especially those with limited employment options, simply moving is not always financially viable.
A problem not worth solving, is a problem not worth complaining about. Once upon a time, I went for a bit over a week without food to get myself out of a place I didn't want to be in anymore. I don't do well with excuses. It was your own choice to starve yourself. No one should be expected to follow that kind of example. And who are you that anyone should care what you categorise as an 'excuse' anyway? I am me, and therefore, my opinion is the only one that matters to me. I don't exactly have a strong sense of empathy, and quite frankly, I find those that do to be rather pitiful.
It doesn't take empathy, just a little decency. If you want to ostracize yourself, go ahead, that's your own problem and nobody else's. But as soon as you start making it someone else's problem, don't complain when they find a solution.
I don't care what you consider to be pitiful anymore than I care what you consider to be valid reasoning. What matters is what is, not your opinion of it. Your opinion might matter to you, but if you can't value anyone else's then what makes you think they should value yours? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:43:00 -
[211] - Quote
Quote:That's just it, in alot of these small towns, they did kill the fundamental base for existing. Mom and pop stores may have been more expensive, but there was an entire localized supply chain that created better paying jobs than what walmart offers. While it is the local people's fault for supporting it in the first place, I don't think people realized they were slitting their own throats until it was too late. Walmart pretty much squeezes local and nationwide vendors to sell their products for mere pennies or they simply wont carry it, they pay their workers jack and they sell their stuff incredibly cheap because of it. Once its in and they crush all the local markets (including suppliers), everyone has no place to shop but walmart, and really they're too poor to shop anywhere else, and its the only place to work, unless you like driving 50 miles to the nearest city just to get to work.
Too much South Park tinfoil hat, man. WalMart doesn't just exist to self perpetuate and destroy the host like a virus.
Small towns have a reason they exist, otherwise they become what I call dots. (dot on the map)
Things like a packing plant, a historical battlefield site, a national park, a large amount of farmland, a manufacturing center, a nearby military base, etc, etc.
WalMart goes to places like that because there are people, and a profit to be made. If the only reason the town had for existing was the Mom and Pop stores in the first place, they were well on their way to becoming dots anyway.
Once a town loses the reason that people started living there in the first place, then it quickly becomes a dot, like hundreds of tiny little burgs in Kansas, for example. Drive through Kansas, just straight through, and you will run into dozens of tiny little villages that consist of about a dozen houses. They are lucky if there a gas station within 20 miles. There is literally no reason for it to exist anymore (there was a case a while back where everyone in one of the little backwater areas died, and no one knew because no one cared. Only when a state surveyor got lost on his way to somewhere else did he find the town full of dead people).
WalMart doesn't go to places that have no reason to exist, because those places don't have an economy. It only goes to places with an actual economy.
It takes over your overpriced, inefficient stores, and replaces them. The only people who lose their jobs were the people parasitically preying on the town through their own previously existing monopoly of goods and/or services. Whether you liked the people who owned the Mom and Pop stores or not, the fact remains that they were taking advantage of the lack of competition caused by being in a remote location to gouge you. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:44:00 -
[212] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: It doesn't take empathy, just a little decency. If you want to ostracize yourself, go ahead, that's your own problem and nobody else's. But as soon as you start making it someone else's problem, don't complain when they find a solution.
As a matter of general day to day practice, I actually go out of my way to avoid imposing myself on others in any way. It's a shame that most people don't share this trait. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1529
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:46:00 -
[213] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: It doesn't take empathy, just a little decency. If you want to ostracize yourself, go ahead, that's your own problem and nobody else's. But as soon as you start making it someone else's problem, don't complain when they find a solution.
As a matter of general day to day practice, I actually go out of my way to avoid imposing myself on others in any way. It's a shame that most people don't share this trait.
It seems more like you go out of your way to avoid doing anything about the less fortunate. This wouldn't be such a problem if you also didn't seem to be going out of your way to blame the victims. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:49:00 -
[214] - Quote
Quote:It seems more like you go out of your way to avoid doing anything about the less fortunate. This wouldn't be such a problem if you also didn't seem to be going out of your way to blame the victims.
Coming from my own point of view (I also have an almost pathological lack of human empathy), it's less of a "blame", and more of a "I refuse to take responsibility for someone else's failure".
They're not my victims. I did not convince them to fall for a Ponzi scheme, nor did I swoop in and take away all the jobs from their geographical area, or whatever else the root cause of their destitution may be. And I utterly refuse to feel guilty for my own success. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1529
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 08:56:00 -
[215] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:It seems more like you go out of your way to avoid doing anything about the less fortunate. This wouldn't be such a problem if you also didn't seem to be going out of your way to blame the victims. Coming from my own point of view (I also have an almost pathological lack of human empathy), it's less of a "blame", and more of a "I refuse to take responsibility for someone else's failure". They're not my victims. I did not convince them to fall for a Ponzi scheme, nor did I swoop in and take away all the jobs from their geographical area, or whatever else the root cause of their destitution may be. And I utterly refuse to feel guilty for my own success.
Now you're sounding like you think it's all about you. You don't have to care, it's not your problem, in which case you don't comment on it, you just stay out of it and go about your own business. It would be less effort for you, I think. Whatever their problems are though, they are not about you in any way. Unless you become part of the problem.
Also, tell me more about pathology. As a certified pathological sociopathic autistic person myself, I can tell you now you're not even solving your own problems. Go check out cognitive behavioural therapy. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
400
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:02:00 -
[216] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Too much South Park tinfoil hat, man. WalMart doesn't just exist to self perpetuate and destroy the host like a virus.
Small towns have a reason they exist, otherwise they become what I call dots. (dot on the map)
Things like a packing plant, a historical battlefield site, a national park, a large amount of farmland, a manufacturing center, a nearby military base, etc, etc.
WalMart goes to places like that because there are people, and a profit to be made. If the only reason the town had for existing was the Mom and Pop stores in the first place, they were well on their way to becoming dots anyway.
Once a town loses the reason that people started living there in the first place, then it quickly becomes a dot, like hundreds of tiny little burgs in Kansas, for example. Drive through Kansas, just straight through, and you will run into dozens of tiny little villages that consist of about a dozen houses. They are lucky if there a gas station within 20 miles. There is literally no reason for it to exist anymore (there was a case a while back where everyone in one of the little backwater areas died, and no one knew because no one cared. Only when a state surveyor got lost on his way to somewhere else did he find the town full of dead people).
WalMart doesn't go to places that have no reason to exist, because those places don't have an economy. It only goes to places with an actual economy.
It takes over your overpriced, inefficient stores, and replaces them. The only people who lose their jobs were the people parasitically preying on the town through their own previously existing monopoly of goods and/or services. Whether you liked the people who owned the Mom and Pop stores or not, the fact remains that they were taking advantage of the lack of competition caused by being in a remote location to gouge you.
I've seen them go into towns that had established k-mart's and U-saves and push them out. But more to the point, I know for a fact they strong-arm local farmers and other goods suppliers once they are the only game in town. You sell us your products for 10 cent profit or we don't sell it. They have no choice, but the end result is everyone on that big farmland suffers, people other than mom and pop stores lose their jobs. I know you make the mom and pop store sound evil by labeling them as gougers but they aren't some mega-conglomerate that can dictate what prices they will pay for goods to resell, they certainly wouldn't strongarm their suppliers into selling their goods at minimal profit. Just like agro-business killed the farmer, I'm sure that guy wasn't just trying ot make a living, he was gouging the crap out of the local population.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
326
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:05:00 -
[217] - Quote
Quote:Now you're sounding like you think it's all about you.
You have it backwards. It's not about me. That's basically the whole point.
You were saying "if we want ostracize ourselves", or something to that extent, because someone else said he doesn't have a lot of empathy, especially not for someone who could solve their own problem, but won't because they can't handle how far they have to go to do it.
But it's not about me. And I truly couldn't care. If they wish to elevate themselves, the means exist to do so. If they cannot stomach the means, then they ***** about WalMart as though it's at fault for all the ills in their lives. It's not, but like the Goons, WalMart makes a convenient scapegoat for the have-nots to use as a target. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Freakdevil
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:07:00 -
[218] - Quote
Given a choice between the PLEX and OP. I choose PLEX.
OP: You have been voted off the island. GOODBYE! |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1531
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:13:00 -
[219] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Now you're sounding like you think it's all about you. You have it backwards. It's not about me. That's basically the whole point. You were saying "if we want ostracize ourselves", or something to that extent, because someone else said he doesn't have a lot of empathy, especially not for someone who could solve their own problem, but won't because they can't handle how far they have to go to do it. But it's not about me. And I truly couldn't care. If they wish to elevate themselves, the means exist to do so. If they cannot stomach the means, then they ***** about WalMart as though it's at fault for all the ills in their lives. It's not, but like the Goons, WalMart makes a convenient scapegoat for the have-nots to use as a target. Other reply: Quote:They have no choice, but the end result is everyone on that big farmland suffers, people other than mom and pop stores lose their jobs. I live NECK deep in farmland right now, most of my friends and drinking buddies that aren't work related, are farmers. They export nationally, through the same shipping company that their parents used. They don't sell to WalMart, they sell to their retailer.
Walmart may not be the problem, but denying that there is a problem in the US that causes such a high rate of "have nots", or blaming the have-nots in any way, is simple naivety. If that problem didn't exist, then sure, maybe then you could say, "if you want more than you have, stop complaining about walmart and get a job, or move". Because you can actually say that in Australia. The number of bogans around that could easily get a local fruit picking job of some kind where I live is ridiculous. But in the US, you cannot blame the have nots when the haves have virtually everything. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
315
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:15:00 -
[220] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:By the way, while you guys are talking about socialism vs capitalism, you should stop by a small country town and see what pure capitalism is, behold Wal-Mart, and nothing else. That is the end result of pure unrestricted capitalism. Believe it or not, socialism vs. capitalism is a false dichotomy unless one or the other is allowed to prevail to the exclusion of all moderation. Then there is no "vs", there is just the complete enslavement of the population to one extreme or the other - in socialism, it's to the government; in capitalism, it's to the corporations. The enslavement might not be obvious on the surface, but it will exist nonetheless. However, in moderation, there is nothing wrong with a little capitalism, and there is nothing wrong with a little socialism.
It exists because humans are essentially herd animals. They need to be controlled, and even seek to be controlled. And why? Because it offers safety, order and efficiency. This is how Stalin, ******, Pol Pot and whatever turd in world history managed to have power, stay in power and murder their own to abandon...all under the eyes of the very people they terrorized.
Take a look at EvE even. Why is Caldari the #1 faction? You would think a sandbox game would promote the Gallente Federation above all. It didn't. People gravitated to Caldari by default as it mimics RL the most. It's something humans understand well, and it's a comfort zone.
Socialism as a concept is wonderful on paper (even capitalists will admit it). But in practice it doesn't work beyond state borders. The USSR was a combination of Communism and Socialism, but it showed that beyond the individual states the system doesn't perform well. The USSR disintegrated from inside out. The US didn't destroy it directly, it went bankrupt.
Just like the other socialist dominating countries in Europe on the Euro are facing.
As the USSR downfall shown you can't spend what doesn't exist. That's the hardest thing socialists have understanding...governments don't make money, they just print it. Tax folks to over half their income, where's the disposable income? And if people don't have disposable incomes how can they play games? How can they also be non-dependent on the State for the very services they payout for (rat chasing his tail...)?
Capitalism is not a fair system in contrast. It doesn't operate on being fair or even just. But it plays to what humans also know, greed. And with that carrot, things happen. It's a personal incentive system to work harder (socialism robs you of self-worth, and also reflects the quality of goods -- that Yugo would not compare to even a Volkswagon in quality). Reward a person with trinkets for working harder is the grease that keeps capitalism going.
And that's why Capitalism wins out, for again people are valued and rewarded for what they do. On the ground level (those 3 meals before a Revolution) capitalism offers more for the person and doesn't rob him of his self-esteem. It's why Americans appear so cocky and confident, it's because we're feel appreciated (and this is before even the US became a world leader). Can't say the same of that factory worker in Moscow, or that French street sweeper with his 30hr work weeks. They're fed; they have a roof over their heads; they have "free" healthcare; they can even goto school for "free", but they're cogs in the wheel and feel it (and as grumpy for it too). The American isn't. Even if he works for IBM, Microsoft or Google, he's an individual first despite the corporate culture. An individual that appreciated.
Because of the individualism, we won't join an universal currency. That even has Socialist overtones (like the UN).
"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
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Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1531
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:19:00 -
[221] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:By the way, while you guys are talking about socialism vs capitalism, you should stop by a small country town and see what pure capitalism is, behold Wal-Mart, and nothing else. That is the end result of pure unrestricted capitalism. Believe it or not, socialism vs. capitalism is a false dichotomy unless one or the other is allowed to prevail to the exclusion of all moderation. Then there is no "vs", there is just the complete enslavement of the population to one extreme or the other - in socialism, it's to the government; in capitalism, it's to the corporations. The enslavement might not be obvious on the surface, but it will exist nonetheless. However, in moderation, there is nothing wrong with a little capitalism, and there is nothing wrong with a little socialism. It exists because humans are essentially herd animals. They need to be controlled, and even seek to be controlled. And why? Because it offers safety, order and efficiency. This is how Stalin, ******, Pol Pot and whatever turd in world history managed to have power, stay in power and murder their own to abandon...all under the eyes of the very people they terrorized. Take a look at EvE even. Why is Caldari the #1 faction? You would think a sandbox game would promote the Gallente Federation above all. It didn't. People gravitated to Caldari by default as it mimics RL the most. It's something humans understand well, and it's a comfort zone. Socialism as a concept is wonderful on paper (even capitalists will admit it). But in practice it doesn't work beyond state borders. The USSR was a combination of Communism and Socialism, but it showed that beyond the individual states the system doesn't perform well. The USSR disintegrated from inside out. The US didn't destroy it directly, it went bankrupt. Just like the other socialist dominating countries in Europe on the Euro are facing. As the USSR downfall shown you can't spend what doesn't exist. That's the hardest thing socialists have understanding...governments don't make money, they just print it. Tax folks to over half their income, where's the disposable income? And if people don't have disposable incomes how can they play games? How can they also be non-dependent on the State for the very services they payout for (rat chasing his tail...)? Capitalism is not a fair system in contrast. It doesn't operate on being fair or even just. But it plays to what humans also know, greed. And with that carrot, things happen. It's a personal incentive system to work harder (socialism robs you of self-worth, and also reflects the quality of goods -- that Yugo would not compare to even a Volkswagon in quality). Reward a person with trinkets for working harder is the grease that keeps capitalism going. And that's why Capitalism wins out, for again people are valued and rewarded for what they do. On the ground level (those 3 meals before a Revolution) capitalism offers more for the person and doesn't rob him of his self-esteem. It's why Americans appear so cocky and confident, it's because we're feel appreciated (and this is before even the US became a world leader). Can't say the same of that factory worker in Moscow, or that French street sweeper with his 30hr work weeks. They're fed; they have a roof over their heads; they have "free" healthcare; they can even goto school for "free", but they're cogs in the wheel and feel it (and as grumpy for it too). The American isn't. Even if he works for IBM, Microsoft or Google, he's an individual first despite the corporate culture. An individual that appreciated. Because of the individualism, we won't join an universal currency. That even has Socialist overtones (like the UN).
Actually, most people choose caldari because it's the default that the game gives you. You have to change it to be another race. People who are new to the game generally know very little about the lore itself. CCP promote all the races almost equally, especially in trailers. Just look at the Odyssey trailer with the Nemesis going out to explore, or the one with the Thorax that sorta phases between different places in EVE space.
I know what you're saying, but there is a big difference between competitive, sustainable growth, and absolute capitalism. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
328
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:23:00 -
[222] - Quote
Quote:Walmart may not be the problem, but denying that there is a problem in the US that causes such a high rate of "have nots", or blaming the have-nots in any way, is simple naivety. If that problem didn't exist, then sure, maybe then you could say, "if you want more than you have, stop complaining about walmart and get a job, or move". Because you can actually say that in Australia. The number of bogans around that could easily get a local fruit picking job of some kind where I live is ridiculous. But in the US, you cannot blame the have nots when the haves have virtually everything.
Historically, this is actually a low point. Recall, if you would, that in previous (significantly large) portions of history, it was illegal for almost 99% of the population to own land. The whole concept of "serfdom"? Was that you were allowed to live on the land of the owner, so long as you paid the proper tax of the fruits of that land. Oh, and he could have his way with the lower status females as he so chose.
We're not doing so bad, and it is very sad that people only see things in the context of their own immediate sight, and not in any kind of historical context.
And let's not even get started on the Soviet Union, where even the concept of something not being owned by the government (which comprised about 2% of the population btw), was considered seditious and you could be summarily put to death for suggesting that a concept of private ownership might be better off.
A story, if you will indulge me. Back in Soviet times, to save money, they would only make one color of lipstick for their women, per year. Women hoarded previous years' lipstick, just to have something different, often times weeks worth of food and rations would be traded for 4 year old lipstick. One year, the color they chose was green. So all the Soviet women would have green lips.
That's what your ideal of equitable distribution of resources gets you. Green lipstick. Have fun with that, I will stick with my capitalism and my "unfairness". Because it's better than green lipstick. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1533
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:27:00 -
[223] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Walmart may not be the problem, but denying that there is a problem in the US that causes such a high rate of "have nots", or blaming the have-nots in any way, is simple naivety. If that problem didn't exist, then sure, maybe then you could say, "if you want more than you have, stop complaining about walmart and get a job, or move". Because you can actually say that in Australia. The number of bogans around that could easily get a local fruit picking job of some kind where I live is ridiculous. But in the US, you cannot blame the have nots when the haves have virtually everything. Historically, this is actually a low point. Recall, if you would, that in previous (significantly large) portions of history, it was illegal for almost 99% of the population to own land. The whole concept of "serfdom"? Was that you were allowed to live on the land of the owner, so long as you paid the proper tax of the fruits of that land. Oh, and he could have his way with the lower status females as he so chose. We're not doing so bad, and it is very sad that people only see things in the context of their own immediate sight, and not in any kind of historical context. And let's not even get started on the Soviet Union, where even the concept of something not being owned by the government (which comprised about 2% of the population btw), was considered seditious and you could be summarily put to death for suggesting that a concept of private ownership might be better off. A story, if you will indulge me. Back in Soviet times, to save money, they would only make one color of lipstick for their women, per year. Women hoarded previous years' lipstick, just to have something different, often times weeks worth of food and rations would be traded for 4 year old lipstick. One year, the color they chose was green. So all the Soviet women would have green lips. That's what your ideal of equitable distribution of resources gets you. Green lipstick. Have fun with that, I will stick with my capitalism and my "unfairness". Because it's better than green lipstick.
This whole spiel assumes the false dichotomy that the only alternative to absolute capitalism is absolute socialism. Also, near the end, it also arrogantly assumes what my idea of equitable distribution is, and that I'm not putting history in context. Thing is, we've learned from history that absolute socialism doesn't work. What we're learning from the present, though, is what is relevant here, that absolute capitalism also doesn't work.
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but there is such a thing as an optimal middle ground. You don't have to be a Soviet Union to reduce poverty. As I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with a little capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with mixing in a little socialism. You have to find a rational middle-ground to balance the two out. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
403
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:27:00 -
[224] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Now you're sounding like you think it's all about you. You have it backwards. It's not about me. That's basically the whole point. You were saying "if we want ostracize ourselves", or something to that extent, because someone else said he doesn't have a lot of empathy, especially not for someone who could solve their own problem, but won't because they can't handle how far they have to go to do it. But it's not about me. And I truly couldn't care. If they wish to elevate themselves, the means exist to do so. If they cannot stomach the means, then they ***** about WalMart as though it's at fault for all the ills in their lives. It's not, but like the Goons, WalMart makes a convenient scapegoat for the have-nots to use as a target. Other reply: Quote:They have no choice, but the end result is everyone on that big farmland suffers, people other than mom and pop stores lose their jobs. I live NECK deep in farmland right now, most of my friends and drinking buddies that aren't work related, are farmers. They export nationally, through the same shipping company that their parents used. They don't sell to WalMart, they sell to their retailer.
Yeah, so they're a co-op? I've never heard of small time farmers selling nationally. They'd have to be a co-op to be competitive.
Look, I pointed out Wal-mart because they have an altrocious employer record, and they do strong-arm the local suppliers and the point is they can dictate the way people live. I mean, Walmart is the reason corporations are people, or more accurately employees can't sue them class-action style, they have to face Wal-marts bench of retained lawyers alone with their meager wages, if they can even afford a lawyer.
Walmart has worked hard to keep the union out, so its a perfect example of unrestricted capitalism. And I'm not against capitalism or the right to make your own way, but I was pointing out just as you view socialism as a failed doctrine that pulls the tops slowly down with the rest, capitalsim alone is a failed doctrine that will lead to one or very few having all the power at the top, and those at the top will use their power to crush any upstarting competition, be it through lobbying laws that make the bar very high for entry into the market, or the ability to temporarily lower prices to starve competition or have the power to simply buy out others.
I wonder where we'd be if Rockefeller and Standard Oil hadn't been broken up, or if AT&T hadn't been broken up. The government is smart to break up monopolies but monopolies are what happens if capitalism isn't regulated. Alot of people hate the unions these days since they've become bloated, but back then they stopped employers from using their power to take advantage of people. Personally, I don't care if you make something of yourself and put yourself in a position where you live a comfortable life, I just have a problem when you use your power to take advantage of others.
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
315
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:30:00 -
[225] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Actually, most people choose caldari because it's the default that the game gives you. You have to change it to be another race. People who are new to the game generally know very little about the lore itself.
Like when? Because like with this alt, there wasn't a default...I freely chose Minmatar (rebel of all rebels).
Game starts with 4 factions to chose from, none were default. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
267
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:31:00 -
[226] - Quote
I too look to YouTube as a valuable source of geopolitical information...just not really.
What you are ignoring with your argument is this huge swath of people between the 'haves' and 'have-nots'. Some like to call it middle-class, but I lean more toward "those who started with **** and busted their asses to be at least remotely useful as a human being." That's kind of where I am. That would also help to explain my lack of empathy. Experience will generally do all kinds of ****** up things to established belief systems.
As for your other point: I would love to ignore the people who refuse to help themselves, if not for the fact that they are made my problem every single day by a federal government that seems to love nothing more than inventing new ways to shove people onto disability in order to help keep our abyssmal unemployment numbers artificially low. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
315
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:33:00 -
[227] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:I know what you're saying, but there is a big difference between competitive, sustainable growth, and absolute capitalism.
That's extremism there, absolute anything is the crazy stuff.
Things like Ayn Rand's Anarcho-Capitalism for example. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1534
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:39:00 -
[228] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I too look to YouTube as a valuable source of geopolitical information...just not really. What you are ignoring with your argument is this huge swath of people between the 'haves' and 'have-nots'. Some like to call it middle-class, but I lean more toward "those who started with **** and busted their asses to be at least remotely useful as a human being." That's kind of where I am. That would also help to explain my lack of empathy. Experience will generally do all kinds of ****** up things to established belief systems. As for your other point: I would love to ignore the people who refuse to help themselves, if not for the fact that they are made my problem every single day by a federal government that seems to love nothing more than inventing new ways to shove people onto disability in order to help keep our abyssmal unemployment numbers artificially low.
Please, if you're going to just disregard that video by virtue of existing on YouTube, then check its sources first. He's listed a few references, and those references also have references. Until you've done that, I can't consider anything further from you to be relevant if you're so willing to just discard information that you disagree with out of hand. There are plenty of incredibly educational videos on YouTube, just like there are plenty of incredibly stupid ones. Same with the information on the internet in general. That's why you check sources.
I've been to the United States. The land of opportunity? Please. My internship there didn't pay a cent. My internship in Brisbane, Australia, pays a full salary with health cover and life insurance for exactly the same thing. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
328
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:41:00 -
[229] - Quote
Quote:This whole spiel assumes the false dichotomy that the only alternative to absolute capitalism is absolute socialism. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but there is such a thing as an optimal middle ground. You don't have to be a Soviet Union to reduce poverty. As I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with a little capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with mixing in a little socialism. You have to find a rational middle-ground to balance the two out.
It's not a false dichotomy. You have no historical example of a middle ground being successfully maintained in the face of international (or even national) pressure. The United States, which tried really hard to be a proper middle ground, that maintained individual and economic freedom, has now become primarily socialist, and extremely polarized between the remaining elements of capitalism within the nation.
But the results are already in. Companies flee to foreign shores in droves as the years go by, to avoid socialist taxation policies. The scales don't stay balanced.
Quote:Yeah, so they're a co-op?
Yes. The vast majority of family owned farms are. They save on shipping costs as a result.
Quote:Walmart has worked hard to keep the union out,
Yes, they have. And they are right to do so, especially considering they hire unskilled workers. Unions, in the extent that they deserve to exist and are not simply enforcing a monopoly of their own (many of them are hypocrites using the law to gouge their employers), consist of workers skilled in a particular trade. You need no skill to stock shelves, no skill to smile and wave at the cart station, and no skill to operate a register. They are paid accordingly. Particularly given how easily unskilled labor can be replaced.
Quote: I wonder where we'd be if Rockefeller and Standard Oil hadn't been broken up, or if AT&T hadn't been broken up.
I wrote a dissertation on AT&T. The government made the wrong move in the Telecommunications Act. They broke up one large, relatively non malevolent monopoly, and instead created 20+ regionally based, small, highly malevolent monopolies, who fought amongst one another until we yet again have very few significant choices (that being, they're all the same more or less). Except that to get there, each of those companies has cut throats and gouged their customers until they have highly unethical and suspect business practices.
This is compounded by the fact that the government basically gave them the legal rights to the communications backbone of AT&T. The new companies didn't build it, didn't earn it, and have no respect for what it took to get there. They are all literally ten year olds that inherited their parents fortunes.
I know of no American adult who hasn't been screwed in some way by a phone company. So I'd give that one a big thumbs down, from hindsight. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1534
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:47:00 -
[230] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:This whole spiel assumes the false dichotomy that the only alternative to absolute capitalism is absolute socialism. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but there is such a thing as an optimal middle ground. You don't have to be a Soviet Union to reduce poverty. As I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with a little capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with mixing in a little socialism. You have to find a rational middle-ground to balance the two out. It's not a false dichotomy. You have no historical example of a middle ground being successfully maintained in the face of international (or even national) pressure. The United States, which tried really hard to be a proper middle ground, that maintained individual and economic freedom, has now become primarily socialist, and extremely polarized between the remaining elements of capitalism within the nation.
Before the airplane existed, there was no historical example of powered flight. It is certainly a false dichotomy just like any dialectic that hasn't yet reached its final compromise, and the historical examples of new government types being formed based on dialectic finality are virtually endless. You want an historical example of a middle ground though? Come visit Australia some time. It might not be perfect, but it's far closer than the US, and hopefully on its way to being even better. I cannot address stupidity like this statement again, though, it is going to give me a headache. Like, have you even heard of change, or trying something new? Do you really think that everything that can be done must be based on precedent alone? Go learn something. Anything. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
267
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:49:00 -
[231] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: Please, if you're going to just disregard that video by virtue of existing on YouTube, then check its sources first. He's listed a few references, and those references also have references. Until you've done that, I can't consider anything further from you to be relevant if you're so willing to just discard information that you disagree with out of hand. There are plenty of incredibly educational videos on YouTube, just like there are plenty of incredibly stupid ones. Same with the information on the internet in general. That's why you check sources.
I've been to the United States. The land of opportunity? Please. My internship there didn't pay a cent. My internship in Brisbane, Australia, pays a full salary with health cover and life insurance for exactly the same thing.
I was being a smartass about the YouTube thing. I plan on checking it out when I get home. My phone's browser hates YouTube with a passion for some reason.
So let me get this straight: your problem with the US originally stems from not getting a paid internship? Seriously? |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1534
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:54:00 -
[232] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: Please, if you're going to just disregard that video by virtue of existing on YouTube, then check its sources first. He's listed a few references, and those references also have references. Until you've done that, I can't consider anything further from you to be relevant if you're so willing to just discard information that you disagree with out of hand. There are plenty of incredibly educational videos on YouTube, just like there are plenty of incredibly stupid ones. Same with the information on the internet in general. That's why you check sources.
I've been to the United States. The land of opportunity? Please. My internship there didn't pay a cent. My internship in Brisbane, Australia, pays a full salary with health cover and life insurance for exactly the same thing.
I was being a smartass about the YouTube thing. I plan on checking it out when I get home. My phone's browser hates YouTube with a passion for some reason. So let me get this straight: your problem with the US originally stems from not getting a paid internship? Seriously?
Did I say that was my problem? Did I categorise that as my only problem? Are you making silly assumptions about my meaning again?
No, that wasn't my only problem.
I completed the internship I started there. Then, when the company was supposed to give me a job, they made the job redundant, and I had to get my family to pay for a plane back to Australia because no one else in San Antonio was hiring, and I wanted to be back on more familiar ground.
There were other things, though, but do you really want me to specify? I would need to start a new thread, I think, and this probably isn't the place for it, but let me start on ground level - the absolutely disgusting amount of homeless people I saw, around the clock.
No, I wasn't specifying my personal problems with the US though, I was making an example of what the difference is between a country with problems that stem from capitalism, and one that doesn't have those same problems (that is, to the same degree - they exist here too, but the inequality is definitely due more to the fact that Australians are generally just lazy). You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
328
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:56:00 -
[233] - Quote
Quote:Before the airplane existed, there was no historical example of powered flight. It is certainly a false dichotomy just like any dialectic that hasn't yet reached its final compromise, and the historical examples of new government types being formed based on dialectic finality are virtually endless.
No, there are plenty of historical examples. It's just that none of them managed to maintain a middle ground. England attempted it, but fell headlong into total capitalism and corporate control, child labor and the like, Oliver Twist, "Boy for sale" and all that.
France, during their Revolution, attempted this, but became nearly entirely socialist instead.
Quote: You want an historical example of a middle ground though? Come visit Australia some time. It might not be perfect, but it's far closer than the US, and hopefully on its way to being even better.
I shall, one day, and woe betide those who fall in my shadow! Anyway, with all seriousness, you guys are at least seemingly starting to climb of the socialist dumpster, given recent political events. The U.S. will soon follow, but given our history it's likely our transition will be much bloodier.
Quote: I cannot address stupidity like this statement again, though, it is going to give me a headache. Like, have you even heard of change, or trying something new? Do you really think that everything that can be done must be based on precedent alone? Go learn something. Anything.
What stupidity, precisely? Missing your context for that.
Anyway, yes, historical examples of success of a policy, would be a good way to start off asking for change. Or at least, lack of historical examples of failure of such a thing. As opposed to spinning up national level policy out of whole cloth, or pretending history doesn't exist. Those who fail to learn from history...
So, the result is, that you can't objectively tell me how a middle ground society turns out, because one has never managed to keep itself in existence for long enough for the effects of such things to be measured. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1534
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:58:00 -
[234] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:What stupidity, precisely? Missing your context for that.
Out of everything you just said, it seems you missed more than my context, but my entire point. And, it's clear you know nothing about Australia. Climbing out of a socialist dumpster? Really? Aaaaand we're back to "go learn something". You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:59:00 -
[235] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Tippia wrote:Franco Stein wrote:If you pay money to CCP it should only be to subscribe to have access to the content of this game and THAT IS ALL. Congratulations. You have finally understood what PLEX is, and why it isn't F2P or P2W. Tippia you are saying the sky is RED over and over again... If I buy a GTC and covert it to ISK via the "Process" and buy a faction fitted ship to go battle an exact new player just like me who is flying the non faction version of the same ship.... I am playing with an advantage due to my RL money transaction.... I didn't use the GTC to subscribe for this particular transaction.... I just bought a faction fit that has better stats then the T1...... i cheated!
Actually I'm surprised you're not complaining about the real world, we're all born in much the same way, but we're not all born equal where advantages are concerned.
GW2 uses gems in much the same way as PLEX, except GW2 doesn't have subscriptions. A company can make a lot of money by offering such a service as well as reducing the amount that RMTers can make. Wouldn't be surprised if that service became available in other games in the future.
Surprises me how some people keep going on about fair yet they neglect to consider the equipment and services that they use to play the game. That equipment and even the services are not the same for everyone so there's already an imbalance where advantages are concerned as soon as you start playing the game.
Franco Stein wrote: If I see a great deal in Motsu on Trit that a guy is giving away at 3.50 ISK per for a huge quantity of 100 million units, but I don't have the ISK in my wallet to make the deal in time.... so I quickly buy a GTC and "Process it" to ISK..so I can make the deal..... I cheated that guy who worked for the ISK, had it in his wallet and is going to login in two minutes to see the deal.....
Pull PLEX..
Well the guy shouldn't have gone offline and he wouldn't have missed the deal. I could play for 16 hours everyday if I wanted to, so that gives me an advantage over those that can't, which is unfair to those that can't. Would you like to suggest that we are limited to playing say for 2 hours per day in the interest of fairness?
I would argue that a game of chess is not really fair to both players as the equipment being used is not equal. But that is what can make it challenging.
|
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
404
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:00:00 -
[236] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yes, they have. And they are right to do so, especially considering they hire unskilled workers. Unions, in the extent that they deserve to exist and are not simply enforcing a monopoly of their own (many of them are hypocrites using the law to gouge their employers), consist of workers skilled in a particular trade. You need no skill to stock shelves, no skill to smile and wave at the cart station, and no skill to operate a register. They are paid accordingly. Particularly given how easily unskilled labor can be replaced.
You're right, but I still think they should at least have some form of protection from the practice of keeping hours low so they don't have to pay benefits and habitually changing shifts and other harassing management behavior designed to make employees who are making too much money quit so they don't have to pay unemployment.
And I agree the unions have devolved from their original purpose but I think laws can be passed that fix them or otherwise overhaul the system.
Quote: I wrote a dissertation on AT&T. The government made the wrong move in the Telecommunications Act. They broke up one large, relatively non malevolent monopoly, and instead created 20+ regionally based, small, highly malevolent monopolies, who fought amongst one another until we yet again have very few significant choices (that being, they're all the same more or less). Except that to get there, each of those companies has cut throats and gouged their customers until they have highly unethical and suspect business practices.
This is compounded by the fact that the government basically gave them the legal rights to the communications backbone of AT&T. The new companies didn't build it, didn't earn it, and have no respect for what it took to get there. They are all literally ten year olds that inherited their parents fortunes.
I know of no American adult who hasn't been screwed in some way by a phone company. So I'd give that one a big thumbs down, from hindsight.
I agree with you on that, though I thought all the baby bells were essentially the same company? In any case the bell breakup was probably a bad example but I'm glad you see the local telco monopolies and the relative lack of choice we are given as a result. I believe it is actually the telco companies that have managed to lobby laws that make the bar for entry into the market extremely hard for upstarts, not that it wasn't already difficult to compete with an established competitor with existing infrastructure.
It's also the local telco monopoly that I think makes America absolute crap in terms of affordable high-speed internet. 4Mb dsl for 50$ a month is just sad. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
267
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:03:00 -
[237] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: I completed the internship I started there. Then, when the company was supposed to give me a job, they made the job redundant, and I had to get my family to pay for a plane back to Australia because no one else in San Antonio was hiring, and I wanted to be back on more familiar ground.
There were other things, though, but do you really want me to specify? I would need to start a new thread, I think, and this probably isn't the place for it, but let me start on ground level - the absolutely disgusting amount of homeless people I saw, around the clock.
No, I wasn't specifying my personal problems with the US though, I was making an example of what the difference is between a country with problems that stem from capitalism, and one that doesn't have those same problems (that is, to the same degree - they exist here too, but the inequality is definitely due more to the fact that Australians are generally just lazy).
Fair enough points at the beginning. I have seen many examples myself of companies doing such things, and I tend to agree that it's unethical to milk free labor only to do a 180 once hiring time comes about.
Oh, as for the homeless, I have one word for you: sucker. Yes, there are quite a few legitimately homeless and destitute people here, just like anywhere else. However, after witnessing a fair few of them slip into a back alley and drive away in a car far more expensive than my own after "shift change", I find it hard to figure out who to feel bad for and who to applaud for taking advantage of people such as yourself who just want to help them. They are a shining example of capitalism at it's finest. They are the Jita scammers of the real world. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
328
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:05:00 -
[238] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:What stupidity, precisely? Missing your context for that. Out of everything you just said, it seems you missed more than my context, but my entire point. And, it's clear you know nothing about Australia. Climbing out of a socialist dumpster? Really? Aaaaand we're back to "go learn something".
You have universal health care. You're socialists. That's pretty much the last checkmark in the box on that list.
Whether you can get away with it, is another matter entirely. A relatively small population can get away with much more easily than a larger, especially a larger population with a consumerist mindset. Hell, it doesn't even work in Canada, some of my Canuck friends say that they have a saying in Montreal, "Don't get sick after September", the implication being that the budget has dried up.
And I did not miss your point, but rather the reverse. Your point is, that you believe a middle ground society with elements of both capitalist and socialist policies can be the ideal society, as it has checks to ensure that the negatives of either philosophy will not have a significant effect on the quality of life of the population.
I am telling you that this is speculation, as it has no historical precedent on a population large enough, for a great enough period of time, to objectively determine whether it is viable. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
316
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:13:00 -
[239] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:There were other things, though, but do you really want me to specify? I would need to start a new thread, I think, and this probably isn't the place for it, but let me start on ground level - the absolutely disgusting amount of homeless people I saw, around the clock.
Most of the homeless are mentally ill, and they choose to live there.
People don't understand homelessness. They think they're all drunks, dope addicts and lost work living in those slums.
Nope.
Spend some time at the Salvation Army in Australia, and you'll understand there's no simple way to cure that problem. As a free society allows people to choose to live where they want.
Just like that homeless guy months ago that the NYC cop offers new boots too, who later found out he wasn't totally homeless and likes to go barefoot...it's his choice to do so.
And you wouldn't even know I also live in extreme poverty (I exist on $700/mon, and on disability). And the only thing keeping me from not living on the street is my mom and sis worked and paid for this house. My mom died last year, my sis got injured and lost her job of 33 years, and now I'm the breadwinner who's disabled trying to live and take care of my sis now who can barely walk.
But I wouldn't change our system. It offered a good life, upto now.
I'm not angry at it, even though I have 2 pieces of bread and 3 eggs to last until next month for my sis and I to eat.
So when I read about all the hardships in game and people claim I'm cruel and harsh, well maybe because I have to be to just survive (and thrive in it). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
328
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:17:00 -
[240] - Quote
Quote:It's also the local telco monopoly that I think makes America absolute crap in terms of affordable high-speed internet. 4Mb dsl for 50$ a month is just sad.
I get 30mb, Fiber, and I pay 85$ a month. You just have to know who to talk to, and how to talk to them.
Quote:You're right, but I still think they should at least have some form of protection from the practice of keeping hours low so they don't have to pay benefits and habitually changing shifts and other harassing management behavior designed to make employees who are making too much money quit so they don't have to pay unemployment.
There is a form of protection. You vote with your feet, you make a sign, and you join the protesters to attempt to affect a change in management policy.
Granted, this isn't working, but that is because for every person that quits WalMart, there are ten people who need that job, and will gladly take that kind of crap in order to be working. Them's the times.
Quote:I agree with you on that, though I thought all the baby bells were essentially the same company? In any case the bell breakup was probably a bad example but I'm glad you see the local telco monopolies and the relative lack of choice we are given as a result. I believe it is actually the telco companies that have managed to lobby laws that make the bar for entry into the market extremely hard for upstarts, not that it wasn't already difficult to compete with an established competitor with existing infrastructure.
You hit on it, by the way. It's the infrastructure, the telecom backbone. The new companies had no startup costs, which has enabled them to leverage that into the disparate monopolies they currently hold. It's a tactic called "Product inundation". You make the cost of doing business against you higher than is affordable, so in order to carve out a market share, you have to eat a loss significant enough that it's all but impossible unless you have the kind of capital to pull it off. Electric companies do it a lot too. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
|
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
317
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:24:00 -
[241] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:It's also the local telco monopoly that I think makes America absolute crap in terms of affordable high-speed internet. 4Mb dsl for 50$ a month is just sad.
If there's no money in it, the companies won't build. Where I live Comcast dominates, despite there's some areas that Cox and other providers can expand.
But if the piece of the pie is so small, there's little return on the investment, and that's the real reason the market isn't getting cheaper. Got to have real competition, and the little guys offering features equal to Comcast at a cheaper price. For an upstart they can't buy wholesale bandwidth like Comcast can, they're nickel and dimed on everything as they can't buy in volume at a cheaper rate.
And if the government gets involved, telecommunications becomes protected just like commercial airlines (the rates are cheaper these days, service is horrible). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
404
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:28:00 -
[242] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:It's also the local telco monopoly that I think makes America absolute crap in terms of affordable high-speed internet. 4Mb dsl for 50$ a month is just sad. I get 30mb, Fiber, and I pay 85$ a month. You just have to know who to talk to, and how to talk to them.
I live in some po-dunk town in the middle of Alabama, I was surprised they even had dsl. Otelco is the local op, and they're really the only game in town, unfortunately. I'm hopeful that AT&T wil lbe buying Otelco out soon, I enjoyed U-verse service while I had it in Florida, 10mb connection, 4 tv's with HDTV on IPTV and phone for like 150ish bucks a month.
Quote:
You hit on it, by the way. It's the infrastructure, the telecom backbone. The new companies had no startup costs, which has enabled them to leverage that into the disparate monopolies they currently hold. It's a tactic called "Product inundation". You make the cost of doing business against you higher than is affordable, so in order to carve out a market share, you have to eat a loss significant enough that it's all but impossible unless you have the kind of capital to pull it off. Electric companies do it a lot too.
Electric companies were the other one, though as much as I hate them I'm not sure how competing infrastructure would work. I can't imagine having multiple power wires and techs coming out to disconnect one and connect another to a house when you change service.
And I will see myself out of this thread. It's 5:30 am, i should have bene asleep 5 hours ago. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1537
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:33:00 -
[243] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:What stupidity, precisely? Missing your context for that. Out of everything you just said, it seems you missed more than my context, but my entire point. And, it's clear you know nothing about Australia. Climbing out of a socialist dumpster? Really? Aaaaand we're back to "go learn something". You have universal health care. You're socialists.
Wrong. Universal health care does not a socialist country make. Having socialist aspects does not make a country socialist, because we also have capitalist aspects. That means we're standing on a relatively healthy middle ground. Hence why I said, if you want to witness a compromise, come to Australia. The reason why you're so stuck on being so wrong with everything you say and assume is your premise is false: that you think there can only be one or the other.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those who think in false dichotomies, and penguins You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
5759
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:36:00 -
[244] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
Go away then... we won't miss you. This thread should have been locked right after your OP. I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!-á Now... where's Ken? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
329
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:36:00 -
[245] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:It's also the local telco monopoly that I think makes America absolute crap in terms of affordable high-speed internet. 4Mb dsl for 50$ a month is just sad. If there's no money in it, the companies won't build. Where I live Comcast dominates, despite there's some areas that Cox and other providers can expand. But if the piece of the pie is so small, there's little return on the investment, and that's the real reason the market isn't getting cheaper. Got to have real competition, and the little guys offering features equal to Comcast at a cheaper price. For an upstart they can't buy wholesale bandwidth like Comcast can, they're nickel and dimed on everything as they can't buy in volume at a cheaper rate. And if the government gets involved, telecommunications becomes protected just like commercial airlines (the rates are cheaper these days, service is horrible).
*facepalm*
So, how is it, that if you can understand and apply the concept of niche marketing being a successful strategy, why are you unable to apply it to EVE and to CCP?
Here's the thing, WoW? Is Verizon. It's huge, it has more customers, but it has almost universally ****** service, people complain about it more than taxes, and if they have an alternative they run to it.
EVE is your local provider, who sells you the product you need in a niche market, because what you want, the big guy won't give to you, because you live in a small town (that being, this gaming niche; PvP centric, permadeath, full market economy).
So... wtf. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
330
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:46:00 -
[246] - Quote
Quote:Wrong. Universal health care does not a socialist country make. Having socialist aspects does not make a country socialist, because we also have capitalist aspects.
Alright, I gave an example of a socialist trait adopted by Australia. Please give an example of a capitalist trait. Because what you are doing is, citing something without giving a proper example, and declaring victory in the discussion by virtue of what is, literally, the card you are holding behind your back while saying "trust me...". No. I'd like to see that card, so we can continue.
Quote:Hence why I said, if you want to witness a compromise, come to Australia. The reason why you're so stuck on being so wrong with everything you say and assume is your premise is false: that you think there can only be one or the other.
My premise remains sound. Australia is neither large enough, nor has existed for a period of time long enough in their current hybrid social philosophy to make a determination of the long term viability of such a society. The European nations alone have existed long enough in a "nation state" level of society to use them as a possible metric, but they are all socialists.
You may be an example of it working right now, but that is no guarantor of the future. That is what I mean when I say that the experiment of a hybrid middle ground society remains unproven. Particularly given that you have yet to produce a valid one. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
317
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 10:57:00 -
[247] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:What stupidity, precisely? Missing your context for that. Out of everything you just said, it seems you missed more than my context, but my entire point. And, it's clear you know nothing about Australia. Climbing out of a socialist dumpster? Really? Aaaaand we're back to "go learn something". You have universal health care. You're socialists. Wrong. Universal health care does not a socialist country make. Having socialist aspects does not make a country socialist, because we also have capitalist aspects. That means we're standing on a relatively healthy middle ground. Hence why I said, if you want to witness a compromise, come to Australia. The reason why you're so stuck on being so wrong with everything you say and assume is your premise is false: that you think there can only be one or the other. There are two kinds of people in this world: those who think in false dichotomies, and penguins
Australia is on the extremist end from anywhere from environmentalism to welfare. It's not about compromises.
I experienced socialist medicine, it's called our military healthcare system. It killed some of my friends, and nearly killed me. When you experienced the worst (have a femur broken, get it set without any pain relief, and told to shut up due to the pain -- never again).
You mentioned how horrible homelessness is, yet don't understand homelessness. Do you really understand socio-economic theories and it's impact? Or are you defending a system you're used to in your country?
"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
GreenSeed
526
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:05:00 -
[248] - Quote
i always love when topics that could result into what i perceive as a negative effect on MY game, end up in a discussion of irl politics, internet, or other random inconsequential crap.
the GD off-topic gank squad squad makes me proud.
death to the f2p heretics! |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
330
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:07:00 -
[249] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:i always love when topics that could result into what i perceive as a negative effect on MY game, end up in a discussion of irl politics, internet, or other random inconsequential crap.
the GD off-topic gank squad squad makes me proud.
death to the f2p heretics!
*salutes*
Always vigilant! Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
144
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:11:00 -
[250] - Quote
This thread is going places! |
|
Thar Saal
Sorry About Your Face Catastrophic Uprising
26
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:14:00 -
[251] - Quote
Abon wrote:This thread is going places!
apparently.
Plex saves players money, power to the players.
time til lawsuit 5...4...3... |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1288
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:28:00 -
[252] - Quote
Annual subscription cost works out at -ú7.50 per month.
I would rather waste the in-game isk I earn on pvp etc than PLEX.
CCP provide the payment options, you make the choice.
Each to their own and that class of thing. This is not a signature. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15292
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:30:00 -
[253] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:It's also the local telco monopoly that I think makes America absolute crap in terms of affordable high-speed internet. 4Mb dsl for 50$ a month is just sad. I get 30mb, Fiber, and I pay 85$ a month. You just have to know who to talk to, and how to talk to them. That's still horribly slow for an awful amount of money. I pay $35 (equivalent) for my 250/100MB fibre line... :smug:
While there may be regional variance, overall and on average, it's not a big secret that the US is still lagging behind in all forms of telco services, largely due to the monopolistic structure of the non-market.
...oh, and PLEX is still neither F2P or P2W, and the OP is still delusional. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Amuntis
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:40:00 -
[254] - Quote
IRL money is paid for each and every single PLEX in the game. Whether someone sells their plex or loots it from a wreck, that PLEX was paid for with actual money. Pay to win simply does not exist in EVE.
PLEX is still the single greatest idea I have seen in a MMORPG such as this. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
317
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:54:00 -
[255] - Quote
Amuntis wrote:IRL money is paid for each and every single PLEX in the game. Whether someone sells their plex or loots it from a wreck, that PLEX was paid for with actual money. Pay to win simply does not exist in EVE.
P2W does exist in EvE.
Folks don't want to see the underside of PLEX (the real economy) but, yeah, the game is setup as P2W. Not directly like in cash shop games, but with enough taxes and fees to ensure you'll be drained of ISK. Especially true with newer players without the passive income to offset the heck of a lot of taxes/fees in this game (this game needs an American Revolution on taxes that's for sure). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15293
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:57:00 -
[256] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:P2W does exist in EvE. In what form?
Quote:Not directly like in cash shop games, but with enough taxes and fees to ensure you'll be drained of ISK. Especially true with newer players without the passive income to offset the heck of a lot of taxes/fees in this game So.... it's really more like Pay To Lose -- the richer you are and the more expensive stuff you buy, the more ISK they take away from you.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 11:58:00 -
[257] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Amuntis wrote:IRL money is paid for each and every single PLEX in the game. Whether someone sells their plex or loots it from a wreck, that PLEX was paid for with actual money. Pay to win simply does not exist in EVE. P2W does exist in EvE. Folks don't want to see the underside of PLEX (the real economy) but, yeah, the game is setup as P2W. Not directly like in cash shop games, but with enough taxes and fees to ensure you'll be drained of ISK. Especially true with newer players without the passive income to offset the heck of a lot of taxes/fees in this game (this game needs an American Revolution on taxes that's for sure).
I take it that this means you don't like the 11% NPC corp. tax. |
Arcelian
House of Praetor R O G U E
22
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 12:41:00 -
[258] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Abon wrote:Dear OP, Since you are incredible dense (no offence seriously but you are) i propose an experiment. I want you to buy some PLEX for real money and sell those PLEX in Jita. Afterwards i want you to buy your P2W 1337 carrier pilot on the char bazaar. Then you will proceed to put that character into a new shiny officer fitted carrier (bought with PLEX of course). You can then proceed to a lowsec system of your choosing where i will visit you in my own plebian and worthless carrier that i bought by "grinding" (aka blowing up some poor guy and taking his cargo which takes like 2 minutes but ok.) I am a worthless player who pays his sub with CC so i cannot afford officer modules of course. The grind would simply take years and years. Since according to your logic your master race officer fitted carrier is a P2W carrier you can commence melting my puny carrier to slag since i have no chance whatsoever and should better eject right away. Let me know when you have set up everything so we can enjoy solid proof of your believes. (Disclaimer: Sarcasm, you will probably die in <5 minutes and i will loot your P2W ubermods. Play this game for a year and we talk again...maybe.) Outside of the negative comment.... you are again mistaken. With your logic CCP should do the following. 1) Remove any requirements to fly ships, mods, etc. 2) Stop the progressive skilling of characters. 3) Remove any leveling in game or character progression. You could just as easily have a very skilled player who knows exactly how to win your above scenario, but only so darn lazy he refuses to work for it in game and throws down his cash to get this win....to make him feel like a big boy. Learn the difference . . . . . it's not about skill, it's about long term players not paying anymore for the game and ANY player's ability to add RL money to a game to get a quick road to whatever!!!! Remove PLEX and you will have to EARN your wins or truly FEEL those losses, and WAIT for those big finishes.
On one hand you're complaining about those that don't have to pay to play the game, then you are complaining about the end result of the players who get the isk for paying for that "entrenched" players sub. All you are really complaining about is being poor.
If you get rid of plex, then they will pay with real life cash, and you will still get BBQ'd, now they have even more isk to not "feel that loss."
This post is so full of fail, and your logic is so flawed, but so many people bite.
10/10
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
330
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 12:44:00 -
[259] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:It's also the local telco monopoly that I think makes America absolute crap in terms of affordable high-speed internet. 4Mb dsl for 50$ a month is just sad. I get 30mb, Fiber, and I pay 85$ a month. You just have to know who to talk to, and how to talk to them. That's still horribly slow for an awful amount of money. I pay $35 (equivalent) for my 250/100MB fibre line... :smug: While there may be regional variance, overall and on average, it's not a big secret that the US is still lagging behind in all forms of telco services, largely due to the monopolistic structure of the non-market. ...oh, and PLEX is still neither F2P or P2W, and the OP is still delusional.
In rural Pennsylvania? 30mb is kick ass. My closest alternative is 5mb.
PLEX is merely a subscription model, that you can sell to other people. It's a way that, if you so choose, you can pay in game currency to renew your sub. You're still paying, and the person who bought the plex still paid for it, so it's not F2P. If money were any guarantee of success in this game, it would be P2W, but then so would hard work, since that makes money too. So hard work is OP, we should nerf it. While we're at it, nerf having friends, that is insanely OP.
You know what? **** it, nerf everything. (especially Concord) Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Knights Armament
Yale Socialite Club
70
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 12:52:00 -
[260] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.
if I sit in an asteroid belt mining veldspar for a week to buy plex, how is that now working? https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=29554516-05f9-4eca-a942-32e1701a6569&action=buddy |
|
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:14:00 -
[261] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:PLEX is a cheat because NO game should allow a player to gain advantage using Real money in a true Player VS Player game. I asked you to explain your train of thought. This is just a statement of your belief. Why do you think using real money to pay for in-game items is a cheat? |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:15:00 -
[262] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.
Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums.
Well, I think you are wrong.... as the game grew well prior to PLEX.
Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!
You may like it, but the VAST majority of gamers do not! Out of the 500k subs that exist I would guess that there is only less than half of that of real people, perhaps even much less... I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.
PVP doesn't exist like in most ALL other games, so the gamers who "don't want to grind" just to play with other players find other games to play that a more entertaining and don't require that type of grind.... you can say EVE isn't other games... agreed.!!! Yet, the harshness of that cost keeps the game from ever growing to any real numbers.
|
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:19:00 -
[263] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.
So using PLEX is ok for you but a cheat for everyone else? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10424
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:26:00 -
[264] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.
Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums. Well, I think you are wrong.... as the game grew well prior to PLEX. Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh! You may like it, but the VAST majority of gamers do not! Out of the 500k subs that exist I would guess that there is only less than half of that of real people, perhaps even much less... I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said. PVP doesn't exist like in most ALL other games, so the gamers who "don't want to grind" just to play with other players find other games to play that a more entertaining and don't require that type of grind.... you can say EVE isn't other games... agreed.!!! Yet, the harshness of that cost keeps the game from ever growing to any real numbers.
PLEX only formalised the GTC trade that has existed in EVE with CCP's explicit permission and support since at least 2004. It has been a part of the game basically since the beginning.
1 Kings 12:11
|
Knights Armament
Yale Socialite Club
70
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:27:00 -
[265] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.
Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums. Well, I think you are wrong.... as the game grew well prior to PLEX. Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh! You may like it, but the VAST majority of gamers do not! Out of the 500k subs that exist I would guess that there is only less than half of that of real people, perhaps even much less... I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said. PVP doesn't exist like in most ALL other games, so the gamers who "don't want to grind" just to play with other players find other games to play that a more entertaining and don't require that type of grind.... you can say EVE isn't other games... agreed.!!! Yet, the harshness of that cost keeps the game from ever growing to any real numbers.
people don't like how long it takes to skill up in eve, no one wants to spend years to get into that role which enticed them to try eve, all of my wow friends won't play eve because of how long it takes to skill up, and also because they're ******* ********. https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=29554516-05f9-4eca-a942-32e1701a6569&action=buddy |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
317
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:48:00 -
[266] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!
More have played WoW than are currently playing. If Blizzard retained all they lost since WotLK, they would have well over 50 million subscriptions (my sub #s from years ago show over 50,000,000).
It's why Blizzard is on this constant TBC remake cycle thinking vets will return for it (didn't work for Cata, isn't going to work for the next expansion...but Blizzard doesn't listen that the new players don't have Warcraft experience to be hooked), which ensures even more players leave, as these older MMOs aren't ported to consoles which the newer gamers use by default, to replace them.
This is why WoW's subs are slowly getting lower. Nothing on the market itself is snatching those players, it's simple burnout and not enough new players (all they're saying now is the game is old, or take a vacation and come back).
What hurts EvE is many things but the main one isn't the pay model, it's the wholesale PvP and/or crime. Not getting Jeweler Jenny to come into a game that will steal her stash. That's a no go from the start. WoW players can withstand even the skill training, but steal their gear? They'll play Minecraft before EvE. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10425
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:54:00 -
[267] - Quote
Yes, CCP should abandon their secure market niche, throw their exisiting playerbase under as bus and join the long line of MMO publishers who have struck rich by trying to copy Wow, such as and of course and let's not forget
After all, what company with 10% YoY growth wouldn't hasten to trash their business plan to try and start copying a model which is losing 20% a year.
1 Kings 12:11
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:57:00 -
[268] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Franco Stein wrote:I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.
So using PLEX is ok for you but a cheat for everyone else?
Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to?
That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this.
I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible!
1) I don't need to Pay anymore because I am amazing and entrenched. 2) Friends won't play because PVP is too harsh and they get no reward for their hour or two of play time.
PLEX on the flip side has killed the game..... and turned it in to Entropia for many many players. The reason this game will never be more than the very vocal limited player base... is due to PLEX.
This isn't a JOB folks..... it's a game and even though it has a GREAT potential to be amazing, it sucks due to the very high cost of PVP..... some of you think that's great if you have the RL cash or you're a full timer who has tons of ISK.. but to the rest of the world... it's just stupid.
If you spend more than an hour or two playing this game a day... you are addicted and should quit for two full weeks.
PS.. Forum PVP is way more fun than in game PVP..
|
Seven Koskanaiken
Clan Steel Wolves
219
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:04:00 -
[269] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote: What hurts EvE is many things but the main one isn't the pay model, it's the wholesale PvP and/or crime. Not getting Jeweler Jenny to come into a game that will steal her stash. That's a no go from the start. WoW players can withstand even the skill training, but steal their gear? They'll play Minecraft before EvE.
That's like saying that The Ritz is hurting because it doesn't serve big macs. |
Ecks Khan
Smokin Aces.
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:06:00 -
[270] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Franco Stein wrote:Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!
More have played WoW than are currently playing. If Blizzard retained all they lost since WotLK, they would have well over 50 million subscriptions (my sub #s from years ago show over 50,000,000). It's why Blizzard is on this constant TBC remake cycle thinking vets will return for it (didn't work for Cata, isn't going to work for the next expansion...but Blizzard doesn't listen that the new players don't have Warcraft experience to be hooked), which ensures even more players leave, as these older MMOs aren't ported to consoles which the newer gamers use by default, to replace them. This is why WoW's subs are slowly getting lower. Nothing on the market itself is snatching those players, it's simple burnout and not enough new players (all they're saying now is the game is old, or take a vacation and come back). What hurts EvE is many things but the main one isn't the pay model, it's the wholesale PvP and/or crime. Not getting Jeweler Jenny to come into a game that will steal her stash. That's a no go from the start. WoW players can withstand even the skill training, but steal their gear? They'll play Minecraft before EvE.
So everyone should start petitioning CCP to buff crime, as it will have the great effect of of keeping Wow players out.
Sounds good to me.
|
|
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:13:00 -
[271] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Yes, CCP should abandon their secure market niche, throw their exisiting playerbase under as bus and join the long line of MMO publishers who have struck rich by trying to copy Wow, such as and of course and let's not forget
After all, what company with 10% YoY growth wouldn't hasten to trash their business plan to try and start copying a model which is losing 20% a year.
Not saying you should copy WOW... at all.. I've never been to the website...
I think they have like 9 Million Subscribers who are actually paying each month to play though. That seems like a lot of money! I wonder why so many people are into that game? Forget for a moment that it had 12 million at it's peak.....
That's right because people can play against other players, die and re-spawn to play again without such a high cost of reentry. They can level up their character and have a level 80 dude roaming around town, if that level 80 dude gets jumped - no biggie - he respawns and ALL this gear he worked so hard for is maintained.... just needs to repair it or something.
In EVE, sure you can have a 150M SP dude, jump in a T3 -2Billion ISK rig, but don't think for a minute you're going to keep it!!! Nope, in a moment of Glory, that rig is toast... So you have to pluck down $50 buck or grind to get it back over the course of days or weeks if you don't have EVE as a Job..... That my friend is only ONE PVP experience where you lost your battle..... If you want it cheaper, your 150M SP dude has to play like a level 1 player and jump in a T1 frigate ... okay!
The cost to play against other players is too high, and the content of the game is vastly going towards being only available in PVP areas.
|
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15038
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:20:00 -
[272] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to?
That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this.
I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible! How is CCP getting more money per month from the Plex, fail exactly?
Just because you are not spending RL monies, doesn't mean others are not. Just how do you think a Plex comes into existence?
Oh and people trade existing ISK for the Plex. It does not create ISK when traded.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:29:00 -
[273] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Franco Stein wrote:Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to?
That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this.
I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible! How is CCP getting more money per month from the Plex, fail exactly? Just because you are not spending RL monies, doesn't mean others are not. Just how do you think a Plex comes into existence? Oh and people trade existing ISK for the Plex. It does not create ISK when traded.
It amazes me how people don't get how PLEX is born. When I first stared playing I bought GTC's (Game Time Codes) from one of CCP vendors.. I did so to get my head start as most do, because I am greedy and lazy!
1) Real Money gets thrown down to a Vendor for a Game Time Code of 2 months of play time for $35. 2) I then take that cool time code and offer it in the TimeCode Bazaar (now they've made it easier and can just turn it into 2 PLEX in game). At the time I did it, I think I got like $450 million ISK per .... 3) PLEX is then sold on the market for ISK, which in turn I can if I want to - Buy GEAR without earning it in game.
This is a fail, because it's supposed to be a game...not a "Buy my Rig" and see how I do against the hugely entrenched PVP base "Simulator".
EVE is certainly a niche, but not in a good way....
Edit = I see you were be sarcastic there... my bad.... you already know the scam....sorry! |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
317
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:32:00 -
[274] - Quote
Ecks Khan wrote:So everyone should start petitioning CCP to buff crime, as it will have the great effect of of keeping Wow players out.
Sounds good to me.
CCP would probably reduce it if they want to grab the strays before they get established in another MMO. If they get established in another MMO they're not leaving for a long time. Which is what older MMOs prefer, as those bitter vets aren't going to stay forever in EvE, too. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:35:00 -
[275] - Quote
"[/i]Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh![/i]"
That's an issue with the game's core game design principals, not the PLEX system. CCP have always intended EvE to appeal to a niche market, the game's harsh ruleset will put off many players thoughout its entire lifetime. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
139
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:35:00 -
[276] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Six Six Six wrote:Franco Stein wrote:I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.
So using PLEX is ok for you but a cheat for everyone else? Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to? That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this. I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible! 1) I don't need to Pay anymore because I am amazing and entrenched. 2) Friends won't play because PVP is too harsh and they get no reward for their hour or two of play time. PLEX on the flip side has killed the game..... and turned it in to Entropia for many many players. The reason this game will never be more than the very vocal limited player base... is due to PLEX. This isn't a JOB folks..... it's a game and even though it has a GREAT potential to be amazing, it sucks due to the very high cost of PVP..... some of you think that's great if you have the RL cash or you're a full timer who has tons of ISK.. but to the rest of the world... it's just stupid. If you spend more than an hour or two playing this game a day... you are addicted and should quit for two full weeks. PS.. Forum PVP is way more fun than in game PVP..
I think you're just using PLEX as an excuse.
Continuing the subscription by using PLEX is not a goal of the game, people can make it a personal goal or they can choose to continue by paying a subscription that is a choice the player must make.
So people that choose to use isk to buy PLEX to extend their game time can't complain that their isk is going on PLEX and leaving then sort where it comes to isk needed for PvP.
EVE is not a job but you can treat it as such if you so wish, again that is the player's choice. In fact for those selling the PLEX that they purchased form CCP they're actually avoiding treating the game as a job in part. Some like treating it like a job others don't I think PLEX works quite well in this respect.
Franco Stein wrote:some of you think that's great if you have the RL cash or you're a full timer who has tons of ISK.. but to the rest of the world... it's just stupid.
I'd say this comes back to your idea of it not being fair. Well the world isn't fair it never have been and probably never will be.
Anyway I have to go out, so I'll have to revisit this later. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15293
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:37:00 -
[277] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:This is a fail, because it's supposed to be a game...not a "Buy my Rig" and see how I do against the hugely entrenched PVP base "Simulator". How does the ability to trade paid game time make the payment system fail? It seems to be a roaring success. And how does it turn it into not being a game any more?
Quote:EVE is certainly a niche, but not in a good way. EVE has long since crept out of the niche it once was in. Half a million subscribers and constant growth for ten years pretty much disqualifies it from that position. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5345
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:37:00 -
[278] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Malcanis wrote:Yes, CCP should abandon their secure market niche, throw their exisiting playerbase under as bus and join the long line of MMO publishers who have struck rich by trying to copy Wow, such as and of course and let's not forget
After all, what company with 10% YoY growth wouldn't hasten to trash their business plan to try and start copying a model which is losing 20% a year. Not saying you should copy WOW... at all.. I've never been to the website... I think they have like 9 Million Subscribers who are actually paying each month to play though. That seems like a lot of money! I wonder why so many people are into that game? Forget for a moment that it had 12 million at it's peak..... That's right because people can play against other players, die and re-spawn to play again without such a high cost of reentry. They can level up their character and have a level 80 dude roaming around town, if that level 80 dude gets jumped - no biggie - he respawns and ALL this gear he worked so hard for is maintained.... just needs to repair it or something.
Here is the problem I think Malcanis is trying to highlight though. What you give as an example is done do death and WoW is the only MMO, that has had such success with it and even it is losing subs constantly now. Everyone else has straight up failed miserably at achieving the same success. Every single one. So if a miracle happens and EVE is somehow transformed to follow the system you describe, what makes you think the result is the 1% chance of currently unreproduced huge success vs the 99% chance of almost certain failure? If you had the definite answer to that question, you'd propably one of the most wanted person in the world of online gaming. Tons of specialists have bet hundreds of millions on the fact, that they had the answer and they have all missed the mark.
Franco Stein wrote:In EVE, sure you can have a 150M SP dude, jump in a T3 -2Billion ISK rig, but don't think for a minute you're going to keep it!!! Nope, in a moment of Glory, that rig is toast... So you have to pluck down $50 buck or grind to get it back over the course of days or weeks if you don't have EVE as a Job..... That my friend is only ONE PVP experience where you lost your battle..... If you want it cheaper, your 150M SP dude has to play like a level 1 player and jump in a T1 frigate ... okay!
The cost to play against other players is too high, and the content of the game is vastly going towards being only available in PVP areas.
I have 50 Billion ISK, that took me a few years to earn playing every daily sometimes and other times not at all.... That means if I want to play at my mains level of game play, I could have only 50 loses - considering Implants, clone costs, decent ship to compete....etc..etc..
Your whole view of the situation is just weird. T1 frigates equal lvl1 players? Ridiculously expensive ships equal playing at high level? That just isn't how this game works. You're trying to force a linear progression level based game system to fit with one, that doesn't have levels or linear progression in that sense. The problem isn't the actual system, but you trying to force your incompatible gameview to a system, that functions in a different way. There is definitely a problem here, but it's a problem of false perception. That doesn't mean it's not real or harmful, but it means it isn't what you describe it to be.
|
Ecks Khan
Smokin Aces.
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:40:00 -
[279] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Ecks Khan wrote:So everyone should start petitioning CCP to buff crime, as it will have the great effect of of keeping Wow players out.
Sounds good to me.
CCP would probably reduce it if they want to grab the strays before they get established in another MMO. If they get established in another MMO they're not leaving for a long time. Which is what older MMOs prefer, as those bitter vets aren't going to stay forever in EvE, too.
Crime is what makes EvE special, it's what all the news stories about. I'm not a very good criminal, I did try a scam once and ended up paying out more than I made hehe. But crime, and things like piracy and ganking and scamming and such, these are the "spice of life" things of a game like this.
If the people behind EvE wanted it to be huge, why did they make a niche spaceship game to begin with? And why are people keen to discard things which have proved successful over the decade this MMO has existed? I believe everything has it's place and that it's ok to not like certain things, but it's players who should seek out games they like rather than trying to change cool games like EvE (and my favorite, Darkfall) to suit their gaming style. |
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:41:00 -
[280] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:[1) Real Money gets thrown down to a Vendor for a Game Time Code of 2 months of play time for $35. 2) I then take that cool time code and offer it in the TimeCode Bazaar (now they've made it easier and can just turn it into 2 PLEX in game). At the time I did it, I think I got like $450 million ISK per .... 3) PLEX is then sold on the market for ISK, which in turn I can if I want to - Buy GEAR without earning it in game.
This is a fail, because it's supposed to be a game...not a "Buy my Rig" and see how I do against the hugely entrenched PVP base "Simulator".
Why is it a fail? One party gets the ISK they want, the other gets play time they want from a resource they don't need. Both parties win and the ability to do so comes at the benefit of a greater number of subscriptions for CCP and less illegal RMT, which comes as a quality of life improvement for the rest of the player base.
Everybody wins. There is no fail in your explanation. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3266
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:43:00 -
[281] - Quote
Guy is upset because EVE isn't a cookie-cutter MMO. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1537
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:47:00 -
[282] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Wrong. Universal health care does not a socialist country make. Having socialist aspects does not make a country socialist, because we also have capitalist aspects. Alright, I gave an example of a socialist trait adopted by Australia. Please give an example of a capitalist trait. Because what you are doing is, citing something without giving a proper example, and declaring victory in the discussion by virtue of what is, literally, the card you are holding behind your back while saying "trust me...". No. I'd like to see that card, so we can continue.
I gave you one. The incredible imbalance of wealth in the US. Not the fact that an imbalance exists, but the degree of that imbalance. I'm not holding any cards behind my back. The data itself is readily available and speaks volumes.
Quote:Quote:Hence why I said, if you want to witness a compromise, come to Australia. The reason why you're so stuck on being so wrong with everything you say and assume is your premise is false: that you think there can only be one or the other.
My premise remains sound. Australia is neither large enough, nor has existed for a period of time long enough in their current hybrid social philosophy to make a determination of the long term viability of such a society. The European nations alone have existed long enough in a "nation state" level of society to use them as a possible metric, but they are all socialists. You may be an example of it working right now, but that is no guarantor of the future. That is what I mean when I say that the experiment of a hybrid middle ground society remains unproven. Particularly given that you have yet to produce a valid one.
No, your premise that there is and can only be one or the other is unsound, because if your argument is only based on there being no guarantee for future sustainability, then surely you can see how that can apply to the current model of capitalism most prevalent in the US as well. You seem to think that there are only a few countries in the world that can act as an example of what works and what doesn't, so here's a question: if something works somewhere better than something else somewhere else right now, which one do you think has a better chance of being more successful in the future? In other words, if there is such a high degree of inequality in the US making the majority of the population worse off for it, but no such problem in Australia to the same degree, which one of those systems that is "working right now" is most likely to be sustainable?
Additionally, in regards to "That is what I mean when I say that the experiment of a hybrid middle ground society remains unproven."
Many countries have mixed economic system with elements of both capitalism and socialism. In the U.S., predominantly a capitalist system, there are still social programs such as social security and Medicare. In many socialist countries, there are private business firms. Australia is an example of a very balanced economy, hence if you look up worldwide economic statistics at the moment, Australia is incredibly powerful on the global economic stage. Which is why even though we're in debt, there are 31 countries, including yours, who have bonds in our debt because it is an incredibly valuable debt. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
3419
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:56:00 -
[283] - Quote
I like PLEX, PLEXy PLEXy PLEX, down it goes, down into my belly....
Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex 1 x Holiday present 2011: Passion for Fashion Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Free Hours Give Hours for Plex Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation GM Give Days Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation GM Give Days GM Give Days Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Pilot license activation Signup for Eve-Online Account: XXXXXXXXXXX Signup for Eve-Online Account: XXXXXXXXXXX Promotional Game Time (a¦á_a¦â) ~ (my spaceblog) http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.co.uk/~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1537
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 15:10:00 -
[284] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:My premise remains sound. Australia is neither large enough, nor has existed for a period of time long enough in their current hybrid social philosophy to make a determination of the long term viability of such a society. The European nations alone have existed long enough in a "nation state" level of society to use them as a possible metric, but they are all socialists.
You may be an example of it working right now, but that is no guarantor of the future. That is what I mean when I say that the experiment of a hybrid middle ground society remains unproven. Particularly given that you have yet to produce a valid one.
Also, now that I've had a moment to do a little research, I can tell you that what I'm talking about has a name: it's called a mixed economy. Turns out, it has plenty of historical precedent.
The American School (also known as the National System) is the economic philosophy that dominated United States national policies from the time of the American Civil War until the mid-twentieth century. It consisted of three core policy initiatives: protecting industry through high tariffs (1861GÇô1932) (changing to subsidies and reciprocity from 1932-1970s), government investment in infrastructure through internal improvements, and a national bank to promote the growth of productive enterprises. During this period the United States grew into the largest economy in the world, surpassing the UK (though not the British Empire) by 1880.
Dirigisme is an economic policy initiated under Charles de Gaulle of France designating an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence. It involved state control of a minority of the industry, such as transportation, energy and telecommunication infrastructures, as well as various incentives for private corporations to merge or engage in certain projects. Under its influence France experienced what is called "Thirty Glorious Years" of profound economic growth.
Social market economy is the economic policy of modern Germany that steers a middle path between the goals of social democracy and capitalism within the framework of a private market economy, and aims at maintaining a balance between a high rate of economic growth, low inflation, low levels of unemployment, good working conditions, public welfare and public services by using state intervention. Under its influence Germany has emerged from desolation and defeat to become an industrial giant within the European Union.
And I'm still laughing that you called Australia a socialist country. The economy of Australia is one of the largest capitalist economies in the world with a GDP of US$1.57 trillion. Australia's total wealth is 6.4 trillion dollars. In 2011, it was the 13th largest national economy by nominal GDP and the 17th-largest measured by purchasing power parity adjusted GDP, about 1.7% of the world economy. Australia is the 19th-largest importer and 19th-largest exporter.
Per capita GDP, or PPP, ranks us fifth in the entire world. Australia's sovereign credit rating is "AAA", higher than the United States of America and Australia's four 'Big Banks' are among the 'World's 50 Safest Banks' as of April 2012. The four largest banks in Australia are also known as the "Big Four". According to the 2011 Credit Suisse Global Wealth report, Australia has a median wealth of US$222,000 ($217,559), the highest in the world and nearly four times the amount of each US adult. The proportion of those with wealth above US$100,000 is the highest of any country GÇô eight times the world average. Average wealth was $US397,000, the world's second-highest after Switzerland.
So for a socialist country, we must be doing alright, hey. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 16:02:00 -
[285] - Quote
The point wasn't in any way the "survival of EVE"...
although I think EVE will survive no matter what revenue system they use, since it's the only space simulator of any real quality.... very much to the credit of all devs.... the visuals are cool and ships are fun to rig.
The point is only this.... PLEX creates a "LESS THAN" gaming event that is not real achievement.
If your opinion of a game is to just use all means (so many of you) possible to get what you want (even out of game cash to advance), then that is your fun.
Yet, if you want to start with "Nothing but a subscription" and build an empire on your own skill, scam or in game merits, then this game will not allow that, due to the ability to introduce real life cash in to it's fake eco system..... other than just the ability to log in.
You may say, well to each is their own... Sure you can do that... just don't buy ISK with real money... but again no that is not accurate, since the game allows others to do it... is my empire real, compared to others who just PLEX it?
That is why Player VS Player isn't real in here.... because your achievement in game is not weighted equally.
Play ANY game ... that is "not equal" and it is a LESS THAN experience with minimal rewards.
Why do you Game? What is your Goal? Why play against other Players?
This game only allows you to play "With" other players and not against them.
Why in the world do you think the Olympics and EVERY Other sport does " Not allow Steroids"?
Because it's not real!!!! Just as EVE's competition is not real, because they allow Steroids in the form of Plex...
|
Din Chao
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
289
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 16:03:00 -
[286] - Quote
How has this wormhole of a thread not collapsed in on itself yet? |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 16:04:00 -
[287] - Quote
Din Chao wrote:How has this wormhole of a thread not collapsed in on itself yet?
because it's interesting.... read the post above you in it's entirety and repost. |
Din Chao
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
289
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 16:10:00 -
[288] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Din Chao wrote:How has this wormhole of a thread not collapsed in on itself yet? because it's interesting.... read the post above you in it's entirety and repost. I've read enough of your posts. Your logic is more dizzying and nausea inducing than the jump animation. |
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 16:17:00 -
[289] - Quote
Yes I'm sure CCP will get right on that whole cutting their income drastically thing.
I thought PLEX was borderline P2W when I started playing, until I saw some terribly fit faction BB killmails, and realized it really isn't. I really wouldn't care if they did do away with PLEX, but it's never going to happen. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15038
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 16:31:00 -
[290] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Mag's wrote:How is CCP getting more money per month from the Plex, fail exactly?
Just because you are not spending RL monies, doesn't mean others are not. Just how do you think a Plex comes into existence?
Oh and people trade existing ISK for the Plex. It does not create ISK when traded. It amazes me how people don't get how PLEX is born. When I first stared playing I bought GTC's (Game Time Codes) from one of CCP vendors.. I did so to get my head start as most do, because I am greedy and lazy! 1) Real Money gets thrown down to a Vendor for a Game Time Code of 2 months of play time for $35. 2) I then take that cool time code and offer it in the TimeCode Bazaar (now they've made it easier and can just turn it into 2 PLEX in game). At the time I did it, I think I got like $450 million ISK per .... 3) PLEX is then sold on the market for ISK, which in turn I can if I want to - Buy GEAR without earning it in game. This is a fail, because it's supposed to be a game...not a "Buy my Rig" and see how I do against the hugely entrenched PVP base "Simulator". EVE is certainly a niche, but not in a good way.... Edit = I see you were be sarcastic there... my bad.... you already know the scam....sorry! You didn't answer the question, how is CCP getting more money per month from the Plex fail exactly?
Oh and I know exactly how it was born, it simplified the GTC/ETC system. Which was running well in 2004.
1. So real money gets thrown at CCP for a game time Plex. Or a GTC/ETC is transformed into a game time Plex. Same thing basically. 2. Game time Plex is traded for existing ISK or items in the game. 3. Game time Plex is used.
How is this bad exactly? Are you saying those existing items, are somehow special and more powerful than normal items? If this is the case, why did the person trade them? Wouldn't he be better with them, than without?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
|
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
319
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 16:49:00 -
[291] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote: What hurts EvE is many things but the main one isn't the pay model, it's the wholesale PvP and/or crime. Not getting Jeweler Jenny to come into a game that will steal her stash. That's a no go from the start. WoW players can withstand even the skill training, but steal their gear? They'll play Minecraft before EvE.
That's like saying that The Ritz is hurting because it doesn't serve big macs.
Let's get real. If PLEX didn't exist, EvE will be joining EQII in actual subs. It's a very niched game, so niched it inbreeds as there's not enough new players staying to keep the gene pool healthy. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Coldest Sea Sailing
503
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:02:00 -
[292] - Quote
You know who is to blame for this mess? CANADA! BLAME CANADA!
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:10:00 -
[293] - Quote
Plex/Steroids exist because you demand it...
You demand Free time You demand Pay to Win You don't care about equal game challenge, since you have a "this is EVE" junk happening in your heads.
Pay to Win isn't only in EVE, it's just terrible for the gaming experience in general. and because losers like all of you (and me at the moment) want good stuff for free....... and the ONLY way a dev company can compete is to use the only CARD they got and that is Sell you Steroids to get the insta pump!!! |
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
3420
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:17:00 -
[294] - Quote
How exactly is PLEX 'pay to win'?
How does it disrupt 'game challenge'? (a¦á_a¦â) ~ (my spaceblog) http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.co.uk/~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:22:00 -
[295] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:How exactly is PLEX 'pay to win'?
How does it disrupt 'game challenge'?
Too many words... just read the many many posts.. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
405
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:25:00 -
[296] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.
Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums. Well, I think you are wrong.... as the game grew well prior to PLEX. Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh! You may like it, but the VAST majority of gamers do not! Out of the 500k subs that exist I would guess that there is only less than half of that of real people, perhaps even much less... I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said. PVP doesn't exist like in most ALL other games, so the gamers who "don't want to grind" just to play with other players find other games to play that a more entertaining and don't require that type of grind.... you can say EVE isn't other games... agreed.!!! Yet, the harshness of that cost keeps the game from ever growing to any real numbers.
No, PLEX has always existed as far as I know, and here is the proof. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:42:00 -
[297] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Lady Spank wrote:How exactly is PLEX 'pay to win'?
How does it disrupt 'game challenge'? Too many words... just read the many many posts..
What I can't work out is why you are championing (white knighting) newer players when it doesn't even effect you.
Surely you should leave that to them if it's a problem. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15039
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 19:30:00 -
[298] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Franco Stein wrote:Lady Spank wrote:How exactly is PLEX 'pay to win'?
How does it disrupt 'game challenge'? Too many words... just read the many many posts.. What I can't work out is why you are championing (white knighting) newer players when it doesn't even effect you. Surely you should leave that to them if it's a problem. I'm sure new players will be thrilled with a champion that doesn't even understand the concept of a Plex. Or what P2W or F2P is. Thrilled.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 19:33:00 -
[299] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Six Six Six wrote:Franco Stein wrote:Lady Spank wrote:How exactly is PLEX 'pay to win'?
How does it disrupt 'game challenge'? Too many words... just read the many many posts.. What I can't work out is why you are championing (white knighting) newer players when it doesn't even effect you. Surely you should leave that to them if it's a problem. I'm sure new players will be thrilled with a champion that doesn't even understand the concept of a Plex. Or what P2W or F2P is. Thrilled.
Thrilled or not he seems to think he should champion their cause. Not that there's much to champion, hence we go around in circles. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4319
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 19:34:00 -
[300] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:Lady Spank wrote:How exactly is PLEX 'pay to win'?
How does it disrupt 'game challenge'? Too many words... just read the many many posts.. Reading a lot of incorrect posts doesn't answer the question.
Pay to Win is when you can buy an in game advantage with cash that is not available through other means to a player that does not spend cash to acquire it.
This does not occur in EvE.
At most you might get items slightly quicker (but not the skills to use them), although that is highly debatable. The downside is that when that item blows up (as it inevitably will) you are out real cash while the other guy is out only pretend money.
EvEs way of doing things does not even remotely border on being a true pay to win methodology. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
|
Northern Misfit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 20:14:00 -
[301] - Quote
So in the circular logic that this thread has become, I must be paying (dearly I might add) to win EvE.
Let's see, I have 2 accounts, paid for quarterly with my CC, this allows me to use the isk made by 1 toon to buy minerals from the dedicated miners that slave away collecting veldspar daily. The minerals then go to another toon who makes 2 other toons the ships that they need to blow things up, which I then loot, pass the booty to my 5th toon to sell on the market, who then turns around and passes that isk to the 1st toon who then buys minerals, and the evil cycle continues. That's winning right?
Seriously the only way to climb to the top of the eve ladder and "win" is to become the best at what ever it is you desire to do in this game. You can't buy it, you aren't given it, you aren't owed it. If you want the medal at the end of the race, you need to actually contribute the effort and work, no one will carry you. I will babysit your stuff for you while you're gone, all contributions to my ship replacement program are-ásubject to being exploded on the undock
-á |
Franco Stein
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 20:33:00 -
[302] - Quote
I have grown tired.... I am going to biomass this toon... Mr. Franco will be no more after this post... rejoice!!!
But....... in closing........ you are all WRONG!!
and you all are truly " I shouldn't say, but" .... no I am not going to say it...... you're just blatantly wrong!
IF you really think that buying GEAR with real money is not a cheat, then this is your game.... and games like it.
In the old ways, players would have to EARN their GEAR in game doing Levels in both PVE/PVP battles and wait weeks to get that shinny "peace of fun". That was GAMING, and everyone in the local chat knew who put the time in the game to get the rewards... he kicked butt on levels and was looked up to in a sense because he put the time in and was a patriarch of his little clan. People would ask him stupid questions like "how did you do it man, you just owned that guy"... Our Hero would smile and say " Just put the time in man, just put the time in".. ... True players both PVP and PVE would gasp at the idea of someone being able to buy GEAR with RL money...
There is no more Hero's in this game, as the line between Pay and Time is blurred...
The True Gaming Hero is dead, and so is this "champion" for the cause of right !!! |
Northern Misfit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 20:43:00 -
[303] - Quote
Does this mean I have to go back to work now? I will babysit your stuff for you while you're gone, all contributions to my ship replacement program are-ásubject to being exploded on the undock
-á |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15040
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 20:45:00 -
[304] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:IF you really think that buying GEAR with real money is not a cheat, then this is your game.... and games like it. Oh we all think this and RMT should get you banned. Why would we think otherwise?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Vrenth
Black-Talon
12
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:06:00 -
[305] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.... it's Steroids ...
Hint: Someone purchased those plexes.... and they were 20$ (more than a subscription). CCP makes more money from plex subs than regular subs, and the players that want to purchase an "Unfair advantage" (if you think this, you are bad at this eve game) can purchase isk.
Win Win from CCPs standpoint, Win Win from mine. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:13:00 -
[306] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:I have grown tired.... I am going to biomass this toon... Mr. Franco will be no more after this post... rejoice!!!
But....... in closing........ you are all WRONG!!
and you all are truly " I shouldn't say, but" .... no I am not going to say it...... you're just blatantly wrong!
IF you really think that buying GEAR with real money is not a cheat, then this is your game.... and games like it.
In the old ways, players would have to EARN their GEAR in game doing Levels in both PVE/PVP battles and wait weeks to get that shinny "peace of fun". That was GAMING, and everyone in the local chat knew who put the time in the game to get the rewards... he kicked butt on levels and was looked up to in a sense because he put the time in and was a patriarch of his little clan. People would ask him stupid questions like "how did you do it man, you just owned that guy"... Our Hero would smile and say " Just put the time in man, just put the time in".. ... True players both PVP and PVE would gasp at the idea of someone being able to buy GEAR with RL money...
There is no more Hero's in this game, as the line between Pay and Time is blurred...
The True Gaming Hero is dead, and so is this "champion" for the cause of right !!!
Does this mean what you are really saying it's all about the size of someone's e-peen? E-peen or PLEX, e-peen or PLEX.
That's easy, PLEX wins anytime of the day. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4319
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:35:00 -
[307] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:I have grown tired.... I am going to biomass this toon... Mr. Franco will be no more after this post... rejoice!!!
But....... in closing........ you are all WRONG!!
and you all are truly " I shouldn't say, but" .... no I am not going to say it...... you're just blatantly wrong!
IF you really think that buying GEAR with real money is not a cheat, then this is your game.... and games like it.
In the old ways, players would have to EARN their GEAR in game doing Levels in both PVE/PVP battles and wait weeks to get that shinny "peace of fun". That was GAMING, and everyone in the local chat knew who put the time in the game to get the rewards... he kicked butt on levels and was looked up to in a sense because he put the time in and was a patriarch of his little clan. People would ask him stupid questions like "how did you do it man, you just owned that guy"... Our Hero would smile and say " Just put the time in man, just put the time in".. ... True players both PVP and PVE would gasp at the idea of someone being able to buy GEAR with RL money...
There is no more Hero's in this game, as the line between Pay and Time is blurred...
The True Gaming Hero is dead, and so is this "champion" for the cause of right !!! No, what you are missing is that we all prefer blowing up someone's stuff when they paid real money for it (thinking they were gaining an advantage).
The fact that they actually didn't gain any advantage makes it far more satisfying (not to mention amusing), and we don't have to wait for them to grind the ISK first. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
123
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 23:37:00 -
[308] - Quote
Just wanted to drop a thankyou for Remiel Pollard and Kaarous Aldurald, was interesting to follow the debate. Also, yay for honorable mentions of the Soziale Marktwirtschaft \o/ |
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 00:05:00 -
[309] - Quote
This thread in a nutshell:
A: "I have come to a conclusion about this game."
B: "Why do you think that?"
A: "This is my conclusion."
B: "Yes, but why?"
A: "This is my conclusion, if you don't accept it, you are wrong."
B: "Yes, but why?"
A: "I give up. If you still don't accept my conclusion, you are wrong. kthxbai"
And so, another pointless discussion endeth in EvE Online GD. |
Nariya Kentaya
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
638
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 00:08:00 -
[310] - Quote
Sir Mack Inawrex wrote:This thread in a nutshell:
A: "I have come to a conclusion about this game."
B: "Why do you think that?"
A: "This is my conclusion."
B: "Yes, but why?"
A: "This is my conclusion, if you don't accept it, you are wrong."
B: "Yes, but why?"
A: "I give up. If you still don't accept my conclusion, you are wrong. kthxbai"
And so, another pointless discussion endeth in EvE Online GD. And somehow it is still more professional and mature than a presidential debate. |
|
Jeffrey Asher
Bunne
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 00:13:00 -
[311] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:[quote=Malcanis]
Edit - bad editing on my part, a post from OP:
In EVE, sure you can have a 150M SP dude, jump in a T3 -2Billion ISK rig, but don't think for a minute you're going to keep it!!! Nope, in a moment of Glory, that rig is toast... So you have to pluck down $50 buck or grind to get it back over the course of days or weeks if you don't have EVE as a Job..... That my friend is only ONE PVP experience where you lost your battle.....
I
But what kind of idiot is putting all their eggs in one basket, and PVP'ing with their one ship that then takes them weeks of grinding to re-buy? If you are doing that you are definitely playing the game wrong - don't fly what you can't afford to lose. And don't fly it unless you can afford to have 10 more docked and rigged, ready to go as soon as you respawn. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
333
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 00:16:00 -
[312] - Quote
Quote:And somehow it is still more professional and mature than a presidential debate.
https://www.youtube.com/results?num=100&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=parliament%20brawl&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=w1
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Abon
STAHLSTURM Test Alliance Please Ignore
148
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 00:16:00 -
[313] - Quote
Sticky material. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3746
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 03:46:00 -
[314] - Quote
Jeffrey Asher wrote:Franco Stein wrote:[quote=Malcanis] Edit - bad editing on my part, a post from OP:
In EVE, sure you can have a 150M SP dude, jump in a T3 -2Billion ISK rig, but don't think for a minute you're going to keep it!!! Nope, in a moment of Glory, that rig is toast... So you have to pluck down $50 buck or grind to get it back over the course of days or weeks if you don't have EVE as a Job..... That my friend is only ONE PVP experience where you lost your battle..... I But what kind of idiot is putting all their eggs in one basket, and PVP'ing with their one ship that then takes them weeks of grinding to re-buy? If you are doing that you are definitely playing the game wrong - don't fly what you can't afford to lose. And don't fly it unless you can afford to have 10 more docked and rigged, ready to go as soon as you respawn. But navy apocs make the evil goonies run away. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
TEST Defence, Please Ignore |
Amyclas Amatin
New Order Inspectorate for Mining Permits
125
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 04:09:00 -
[315] - Quote
Plex is an excellent way to raise capital, so that you can buy stuff, for us to take from you when you blow up, so that we have isk to buy plex from you, so that you have capital, for you to buy stuff, for us to take, to get isk, to buy plex.
It's like people are giving us free game-time after we take their in-game items, which we sell back to them, to buy plex from them for them to buy items, for us to take and buy plex with, so they can get items for us to take. Please help me with my survey on high-sec aggression: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dLcM27c_qDyOIxFgE4Zan_T8j_eZDDeCUAEL4lwXGC8/viewform |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3746
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 04:20:00 -
[316] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:Plex is an excellent way to raise capital, so that you can buy stuff, for us to take from you when you blow up, so that we have isk to buy plex from you, so that you have capital, for you to buy stuff, for us to take, to get isk, to buy plex.
It's like people are giving us free game-time after we take their in-game items, which we sell back to them, to buy plex from them for them to buy items, for us to take and buy plex with, so they can get items for us to take. A cycle of subscription time. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
TEST Defence, Please Ignore |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
320
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 07:07:00 -
[317] - Quote
Jeffrey Asher wrote:But what kind of idiot is putting all their eggs in one basket, and PVP'ing with their one ship that then takes them weeks of grinding to re-buy? If you are doing that you are definitely playing the game wrong - don't fly what you can't afford to lose. And don't fly it unless you can afford to have 10 more docked and rigged, ready to go as soon as you respawn.
Oh, god, put that on the CCP front page as a recruitment feature for EvE. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
110
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 11:38:00 -
[318] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.... it's Steroids ...
every plex in eve was bought by another player to sell for a quick shot of isk. No one is really playing for "free" they either invest USD or hours/days/weeks as thier payment time. Whatever happens, CCP is getting dollars paid to them for every increment of game time that is activated plexed or paypal'd.
Not to mention the plexes that dont even turn into game time and are cashed in for aurum and other 1 off plex for ?? deals CCP may have running - such as tournaments or plex for video cards. |
Jeffrey Asher
Bunne
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.30 11:25:00 -
[319] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Jeffrey Asher wrote:But what kind of idiot is putting all their eggs in one basket, and PVP'ing with their one ship that then takes them weeks of grinding to re-buy? If you are doing that you are definitely playing the game wrong - don't fly what you can't afford to lose. And don't fly it unless you can afford to have 10 more docked and rigged, ready to go as soon as you respawn. Oh, god, put that on the CCP front page as a recruitment feature for EvE.
That aspect is one of the many things that has converted me to EVE from lesser MMOs. |
Rico Minali
The Straw Men
1289
|
Posted - 2013.06.30 11:32:00 -
[320] - Quote
I payed to play EVE with real money for about 18 months, ever since then I have paid by plex, with isk. Why should I be made to pay real money? CCP get exactly the same amount of income from me as they do from someone who pays real money.
And yes, I would simply quit altogether if I was made to pay real money, I have sunk something like -ú250 or so into a game, most games, such as Skyrim or something I pay 30 odd quid for and can play forever without any more payment, apart from the occasional DLC which are optional. I can play Skyrim pretty much forever without any extra cash injection, why should Eve be different for those who want it to be that way? It doesnt affect you in any way shape or form.
Also PLEX isnt a 'new' thing, before plex we bought GTCs and they were far more beneficial a I used to buy a 90 day game time code for around 380 million isk as opposed to todays prices of around 1.5 billion for the same amount of gametime. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
|
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.30 11:48:00 -
[321] - Quote
Hm both sides have some valid points.
If ur RL poor, grinding for isk to pay gametime is fine impo
Having a big phat RL wallet so u can just buy plexes, sell them for iskies and buy a fully grown toon + gear is defeating the purpose of playing impo
Then again, i'm a lil masochistic... i actually enjoy playing eve, earning my iskies INGAME, then build/buy stuff with it.
Sure i could just buy a plex or 2 then get me the new shiney toy i want... but whats the fun in that? |
Lady Spank
GET OUT NASTY FACE
3421
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 08:25:00 -
[322] - Quote
You could argue that this game is 'be competent to win' if you judge 'winning' by simply being able to acquire in-game money. If you are smart enough you never need pay RL for a subscription or PLEX nor even make much effort or grind in-game for money either.
I spend about 5 hours in-game every three months in order to pay for my accounts and afford all the pew pew and sponsoring of events, live-streamers and PVP'ers that I wish to do. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ (my spaceblog) http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.co.uk/~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
335
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 08:34:00 -
[323] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:I spend about 5 hours in-game every three months in order to pay for my accounts and afford all the pew pew and sponsoring of events, live-streamers and PVP'ers that I wish to do.
How? "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
354
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 08:46:00 -
[324] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Lady Spank wrote:I spend about 5 hours in-game every three months in order to pay for my accounts and afford all the pew pew and sponsoring of events, live-streamers and PVP'ers that I wish to do. How?
My guess is PI. Done properly and with preparation, you can rake it in. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10471
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 09:24:00 -
[325] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Lady Spank wrote:I spend about 5 hours in-game every three months in order to pay for my accounts and afford all the pew pew and sponsoring of events, live-streamers and PVP'ers that I wish to do. How? My guess is PI. Done properly and with preparation, you can rake it in.
You can generally make huge amounts of ISK each expansion if you're already accumulated a decent balance and can wait a few weeks for the payoff.
1 Kings 12:11
|
Joxxy
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
18
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 09:36:00 -
[326] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.... it's Steroids ...
Franco Stein CURRENT CORPORATION School of Applied Knowledge [SAK] from 2013.05.28 23:07 to this day
Please explain to me how this game should be played and enjoyed.
You see Im new to this game, just joined on 2013.05.28 23:07 and would love some insight from a veteran. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
354
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 10:02:00 -
[327] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:Lady Spank wrote:I spend about 5 hours in-game every three months in order to pay for my accounts and afford all the pew pew and sponsoring of events, live-streamers and PVP'ers that I wish to do. How? My guess is PI. Done properly and with preparation, you can rake it in. You can generally make huge amounts of ISK each expansion if you're already accumulated a decent balance and can wait a few weeks for the payoff.
Oh, expansion speculation. Gotcha.
Heh, I spend money too freely, don't have that kind of capital for long once I make any money lol. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Pitrolo Orti
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 10:10:00 -
[328] - Quote
Poor people always complain about stuff. Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
|
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
184
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 11:18:00 -
[329] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.... it's Steroids ...
plex is a perfect system however you need to spend the time to think about it in detail OMG! the asteroid is depleted! |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
553
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 12:03:00 -
[330] - Quote
Sandbox games do not have a static victory condition. Tell me again what arbitrary victory condition is met when someone buys PLEX? What eve does have is permadeath of assets, so isn't it really Pay To Lose that we are discussing here? |
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Coldest Sea Sailing
620
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 18:11:00 -
[331] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Lady Spank wrote:I spend about 5 hours in-game every three months in order to pay for my accounts and afford all the pew pew and sponsoring of events, live-streamers and PVP'ers that I wish to do. How? Gathering and recycling empty Quafe cans. New Eden drinks a lot of Quafe.
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
310
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 18:17:00 -
[332] - Quote
Holy crap. Can we ban this thread and gas the op yet? |
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 19:11:00 -
[333] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.... it's Steroids ...
People do pay to play this game . where do you think this plex comes from ?
And dont worry free to play is so passe these days , we have a new business model to look forward to .
its is the BBP model and has proven its self to be quite the cash cow . (Break the Bank to Play)
in order for eve to be relevant in this new order of gaming economics CCP will have to adapt this model to eve .
1st: the eve we have now will be called the Starter Edition it will come with current game content that we all know and love minus the ships and player owned structures .
the starter edition will come in 4 flavors minmatar, caldari etc... it will contain 1 starter frigate. and a 1000 aur
it will retail at $$$
2nd. all additional ships will cost extra $$ or $$$ or even $$$$ depending on the ship desired. of course to make this desirable you get a high quality 3d printed ship that is pluged into a usb data port that reads the ship into the eve client. ala skylander / disney infinity. (also start citizen has shown people will spend insane money for digital starships)
3rd. there will be eve trading power packs the packs contain a random assortment of power ups that can be applied to your ships base, this gives your ship a buff and they are available in single packs for $ or of course you can buy a box for $$$
4th. all featured content will be released as odysseys, they will come in at $$ per episodic content pack they may include cool new ships or power packs.
5th. lets not forget about your in game character . thats right for the cost of $$$ you get my lil eve dressup play set comes complete with a walk in closet and a assortment of vanity mirrors. But the best feature of all is that you can even have a friend over for tea !! There will also be supporting content packs that cost $ and $$ and even $$$ they will get you special clothing and accessories cards that can be traded in game among the player base remember ! gotta collect em all !!!
this is the new gaming model of the future .
skylander set the stage for this and disneys infinity will slap everyone across the face and make them realize that gamers just cant wait to spend their money on digital gaming goodness.
say good bye to free/cheap years and hello to the creation of the most expensive hobby of this decade. |
Jeffrey Asher
Bunne
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.01 22:15:00 -
[334] - Quote
Sri Nova wrote:Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.... it's Steroids ... People do pay to play this game . where do you think this plex comes from ? And dont worry free to play is so passe these days , we have a new business model to look forward to . it is the BBP model and has proven its self to be quite the cash cow . (Break the Bank to Play) in order for eve to be relevant in this new order of gaming economics CCP will have to adapt this model to eve . 1st: the eve we have now will be called the Starter Edition it will come with current game content that we all know and love minus the ships and player owned structures . the starter edition will come in 4 flavors minmatar, caldari etc... it will contain 1 starter frigate. and a 1000 aur it will retail at $$$ 2nd. all additional ships will cost extra $$ or $$$ or even $$$$ depending on the ship desired. of course to make this desirable you get a high quality 3d printed ship that is pluged into a usb data port that reads the ship into the eve client. ala skylander / disney infinity. (also start citizen has shown people will spend insane money for digital starships) 3rd. there will be eve trading power packs the packs contain a random assortment of power ups that can be applied to your ships base, this gives your ship a buff and they are available in single packs for $ or of course you can buy a box for $$$ 4th. all featured content will be released as odysseys, they will come in at $$ per episodic content pack they may include cool new ships or power packs. 5th. lets not forget about your in game character . thats right for the cost of $$$ you get my lil eve dressup play set comes complete with a walk in closet and a assortment of vanity mirrors. But the best feature of all is that you can even have a friend over for tea !! There will also be supporting content packs that cost $ and $$ and even $$$ they will get you special clothing and accessories cards that can be traded in game among the player base remember ! gotta collect em all !!! this is the new gaming model of the future . skylander set the stage for this and disneys infinity will slap everyone across the face and make them realize that gamers just cant wait to spend their money on digital gaming goodness. say good bye to free/cheap years and hello to the creation of the most expensive hobby of this decade.
I can't wait for my Little Mermaid skins, and don't forget pets - they can only be seen in station by your friends that come over for tea,and have to be fed regularly with food that costs $. The best ones cost $$$$ and have no impact on game play at all, but you will look cool to all your school friends. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
96
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 01:21:00 -
[335] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I will never understand people who think like this. I pay my Eve sub with real money. Why? Time efficiency. Even if I enjoyed Eve's PVE (which I do not), it would make more sense to just pay my sub with cash rather than PLEX. Show me anywhere in the game that I can make 500-600m ISK/hr (assuming a $17 per hour irl pay rate) without either a massive investment, or serious risk involved. Just because I pay my sub with cash, doesn't mean that I contribute anything more than a person who PLEXes their account. In fact, I probably contribute less, because they are having to perform in game actions to keep their subs rolling, whereas I am not.
Making ISK in the EVE economy feeds my megalomania and makes me feel good while playing as the numbers grow.
The random rewards of " hah " someone actually paid that much for these things or, wow i got a steal on that are exciing
I have around 700 killls on my pvp character... a few hundred inanimate objects and a great many when my team outnumbered the victim... but its the Hunt and the chance of going your way and seizing the opportunity.. even if relatively easy, to actually get there and get the thing targeted before your buddies pop it lol.
Those kills are fun too.. and of course the 30% of them that were in relatively evenly matched encounters where one side or another had to flee the field perhaps even me getting out alive after a kill...actually very common as support flies .. those were the most fun.
i.e. I've fully enjoyed the pvp part of the game...
... but I also enjoy my 5 accounts paid for by isk and making more isk.. scattered throughout the universe able to provide eyes and have selected items on the markets that I wash rinse and repeat with once in place.
Oh... and the RL $ isn't the object although I do prefer to spend the money on fancy camps for my kids rather than my own recreation, if I can have just as much fun not spending money i can spend on them instead. |
Jarod Garamonde
Action Bastards
287
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 01:51:00 -
[336] - Quote
Franco Stein wrote:been reading the forums and see you all trolling about what this game is.... mostly it's a sandbox.
This game is junk with its entrenched player base that pays nothing to play and makes the most noise. The PVP is worthless and the PVE is boring.
REMOVE PLEX and make people pay for this game out of pocket to have real players who contribute. REMOVE PLEX and get rid of the PAY to Win model..
Don't buy Plex.... it's Steroids ...
You shut your w***e mouth. "you can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose."-á --áBienator II |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1814
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 02:02:00 -
[337] - Quote
I too think CCP should just throw away half of their subs because you suck. |
P3ps1 Max
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:08:00 -
[338] - Quote
What type of entrenched player base are you referring to? |
Jeffrey Asher
Bunne
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 22:41:00 -
[339] - Quote
P3ps1 Max wrote:What type of entrenched player base are you referring to? The ones who have unfairly been playing for 10 years just so their characters can be better than OP. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
183
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 22:47:00 -
[340] - Quote
I consider myself part of the 'entrenched playerbase' and I pay to play...er I mean lose ships.
Therefore OP is invalid.
Meet the "learning cliff", OP. |
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