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MIstress Saki
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Posted - 2005.11.29 10:40:00 -
[1]
Looking at the StatÆs on Sisi and at the other present Khanid I must say that I have a bad feeling about the ship. What worries me the most is the weapon layout? When I remember it correctly it has 4 Turrets and 4 Missles Launchers?. It looks like we will have the same problems like with the Sacrilege (strange mixtures of beams and missiles). The main bonus of the Amarr destroyers is for beams and not for missles. So it looks like the amarr Interdictor will suffer from the same ôstrangeö caladri-amarr tech bastardisation. But in contrast to the other Tech II ships we have no VIZAM variant. What do you think?
P.S. CCP make it possible in Kali to rally an Amarr fleet and conquer the dam Khanid Kingdom to remove the heretic Caldari influence, so we Khanid Innovation my design some useful amarr ships.
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.11.29 10:46:00 -
[2]
There's no reason to worry about those ships, as long as they don't screw up the Khanid battleship, it's all good.
[Now with MIND BULLETS!]
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2005.11.29 10:47:00 -
[3]
I friggin hate khanid.. Wannabe caldari scum!!!11
Give us some pure amarrian ships mkay?.. Maybe viziam and such!
With great power, comes great responsibility. |
Pharuan
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Posted - 2005.11.29 10:50:00 -
[4]
I wouldn't worry to much about it. The gallente one has 5 turret hardpoints and 4 launcher hardpoints. So we are in the same boat.
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Yarek Balear
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Posted - 2005.11.29 10:51:00 -
[5]
You sure it's not been you Amarrian lot mating with the Minmatar slaves again and making a wannabe Minmatar ship ? You'll be giving yourselves more low slots and shield tanking bonuses next :P
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hamstar
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Posted - 2005.11.29 10:58:00 -
[6]
Cry me a river amarr scum at least your battleships dont suffer from this mixed weapon junk
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El Yatta
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Posted - 2005.11.29 11:04:00 -
[7]
This is surely a good thing if interdictors are going to be ranged-scrambling ships - you want lots of mids! ---:::---
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Other Minion
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Posted - 2005.11.29 11:37:00 -
[8]
I really don't mind caldari ships. I can use tech II lasers, blasters, railsguns, and tech II missiles up to torps. I find the dps on the friggys isn't bad with tech II rocket launchers. I imagine the tech II dessy will be able to one or two volly friggys with its missiles. Also people never try a sheild tank on the Khanid ships, which I think is a pitty with the base resisitances and crystal implants.
Anyway, the problem isn't the Khanid/Caldari bastardism, but that the Sac has issuses by itself due to the suckyness for tech II heavy missile launchers and assult launchers.
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Elenia Kheynes
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Posted - 2005.11.29 11:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Discorporation There's no reason to worry about those ships, as long as they don't screw up the Khanid battleship, it's all good.
bwahahaha amarr shield tanking ftw!
Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Elenia Kheynes
Originally by: Discorporation There's no reason to worry about those ships, as long as they don't screw up the Khanid battleship, it's all good.
bwahahaha amarr shield tanking ftw!
I'm cool with shield tanking, but not with 3/4 medslots, ty vrymuch!
[Now with MIND BULLETS!]
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Simon Illian
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:05:00 -
[11]
when i've see that i feel bad ...
my alt (a true amarr character) can fly ONLY amar ship, have good gunnery skill (of course only laser), can fly any frig, af, cruiser & BS of the amarr race.
i CAN'T mount a standard missile launcher, i don't want to use them, i'm an amarr, i'm not a caldari.
I've train destroyer @5 and the other req. skill ... and now you want i use missiles ???
:'(
but ... dev do as they want, we need to adapt ...
[Eve Tool for the mass] |
Skyscorcher
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:28:00 -
[12]
Quote: What worries me the most is the weapon layout? When I remember it correctly it has 4 Turrets and 4 Missles Launchers?
It's what all of us Minmatar pilots have to deal with for every single one of our ships.
But let's be serious, people... no one's going to bother training up Destroyer 5 to use this. Really. ______________________________
PLAY LIKE YA GOT A PAIR! |
pk blinder
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:31:00 -
[13]
Yeah, sucks doesnt it? Missiles are good for giving a degree of flexibility, but the price paid can be too high. I would always prefer to see missiles used as either main or anciliary weapon, not the even split we see on this or the Sacrilage. So maybe a 5/3 or even 6/2 split would be good. For example, Moa is well balanced as a cruiser, but the Eagle could really do with an extra turret point to maxmise it's bonus.
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: hamstar Cry me a river amarr scum
If i do, would you drown in it?
With great power, comes great responsibility. |
Roba
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:38:00 -
[15]
Hey, the Vengance can run a tech II booster and two hardners sustained. And mount a rack of med pulse.
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Kunming
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:39:00 -
[16]
Gallente are all about drones and blasters, so they get a drones ship or a dmg dealer. Caldari are all about EW, rails or missiles, so they get a missile or rail boat with lotsa mids. Minmatar are all about speed and close range or long range guns, so they get a fast ship or an arty boat. Amarr are all about armor, cap and lasers, so they get... wait a sec you want me to shield tank this ship? huh, come again? and use missiles??? what you've been smoking?!
I think everyone got that, hope CCP stops this Khanid design crap soon, cause I wanna have 2 options when I train for a T2 class. If I wanted to use missiles and a shield tank I would have trained for caldari.
Website Killboard |
LWMaverick
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kunming Gallente are all about drones and blasters, so they get a drones ship or a dmg dealer. Caldari are all about EW, rails or missiles, so they get a missile or rail boat with lotsa mids. Minmatar are all about speed and close range or long range guns, so they get a fast ship or an arty boat. Amarr are all about armor, cap and lasers, so they get... wait a sec you want me to shield tank this ship? huh, come again? and use missiles??? what you've been smoking?!
I think everyone got that, hope CCP stops this Khanid design crap soon, cause I wanna have 2 options when I train for a T2 class. If I wanted to use missiles and a shield tank I would have trained for caldari.
Thats exactly what ****es me off... I might look caldari, but i choose lasers and armor tanking.. and then they keep on giving us khanid ships?!... ffs, thats like giving a t2 raven laser bonuses, now imagine how much whine that would bring.. !!!!!!!
/me blows up khanid shipyard
/Mav
With great power, comes great responsibility. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.11.29 12:55:00 -
[18]
"I'm cool with shield tanking, but not with 3/4 medslots, ty vrymuch!"
Welcome to wonderful world of Caldari frigates and cruisers ;.;
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.11.29 13:03:00 -
[19]
I actually really like the khanid ships...
I think lasers + missles + shield tanking + amarr capacitor = cool
if you actually bothered to train to fly khanid hybrid ships I think you'd see the ship in a different light.
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2005.11.29 14:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: j0sephine "I'm cool with shield tanking, but not with 3/4 medslots, ty vrymuch!"
Welcome to wonderful world of Caldari frigates and cruisers ;.;
Welcome to the wonderful world of Minmatar cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.11.29 15:03:00 -
[21]
"Welcome to the wonderful world of Minmatar cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships."
Well, Cyclone is getting the fifth mid, and Typhoon seems more like armour tanker -.^ but otherwise, indeed ^^;;
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.11.29 15:11:00 -
[22]
Mixed weapon system ships with a bonus to only 1 type of weapon suck without exception
Typhoon Hawk Ares Vengeance Nightmare Sacriledge MK2 Tristan etc, etc, ect.
The new Khanid designs will just end up mirroring the same old problems. Don't make the same design mistakes over and over again! People aren't stupid, and will move to the path of least resistance. If the Khanid Interdictor sucks because it doesn't get a bonus to lasers and missile rof players won't fly it becuase of the third mid. They will just fly the Sabre (Matari) becuase they will be able to do 100% of the things they need with 4 mids vs 3 and will be able to have twice the damage output as well.
No one wants the same damage output. Just bring them closer. We already have enough mixed ships that are completely useless. Repeating past mistakes while expecting a different result is foolish. Unless a ship has an extremely unique role/bonus players will migrate to the ship with the most flexibility AND damage becuase they are the most useful.
Example Retribution - GREAT damage, 1 mid. No flexibility Vengeance - GREAT flexibility through mids, crap damage Enyo - Good flexibility through 2 mids, 85% of Retri damage
RESULT = there are 10 times the number of Enyos in pvp than any amarr AF.
THE PLEA - Please please please give mixed ships a "weapon bonus" that can be applied to both systems. Something like "weapons bonus - 10% cap on laser capacitor use and 5% missile damage per lvl". Ships that are half and half NEED this to be viable. If a ship is 90/10 then make the weapons bonus be something relatively innocuous that doesn't effect dps like "5% missile velocity per lvl" on the Apoc and the Tempest's missile slots in order to maintain balance.
Otherwise quite simply they won't be flown. Past performance predicts that unless an alteration is made the Khanid designs will continue not to be used.
Don't repeat past mistakes. Fix the underlying issue (subpar performance vs counterparts) and you will provide a much needed boost to pvp diversity.
Nyxus
Plasmatique> "Cry 'Cartiff' and let slip the dogs of war!" |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2005.11.29 15:15:00 -
[23]
Min have lots of ships that use both missles and a gun - I see no problem giving Amar a few.
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Draaken
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Posted - 2005.11.29 15:27:00 -
[24]
Complaining is good ... whining is bad. After all, this is still only test server data/stats. ____________________
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.11.29 15:28:00 -
[25]
"The Amarr Tech II destroyer: Another useless Khanid Monstrosity?"
you can bet your skillpoints on it.
the only good combat khanid ship is the malediction, and that only after they gave it a 3rd turret. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.11.29 17:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: j0sephine Well, Cyclone is getting the fifth mid, and Typhoon seems more like armour tanker -.^ but otherwise, indeed ^^;;
Aye, but the typhoon being an armor tanker doesn't make it a good armor tanker either. As i just went through the data for another post: * Typhoon powergrid: 12 500 MW * 1.25 (engineering V) = 15 625 MW * 4 dual 425mm AC t1: 1 250 * 0.9 (Adv Wp Upgrades V) * 4 = 4500 MW * 4 Cruise launcher t1: 1 250 * 0.9 (Adv Wp Upgrades V) * 4 = 4500 MW * 4 heavy nos t1: 2 000 MW * 4 = 8 000 MW * 2 large rep t1: 2 000 * 2 MW = 4 000 MW * 1 AB t1: 625 MW * 1 MWD t1 + 1 heavy cap injector t1: 1 250 MW + 1 750 MW = 3 000 MW
So, with the lowest powergrid hungry t1 stuffs, maxed fitting skills, one can fit, 4 dual 425mm ACs, 4 Cruise Launchers, 2 large rep and an afterburner without fitting mod. To fit a MWD + cap injector, it needs to drop the second large rep and fit a medium rep, or use a pg mod. Unless i forgot something or got the numbers wrong, it's not impressive...
(sorry for bringing the minmatar complain over here)
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range. |
Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.11.29 17:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ghoest Min have lots of ships that use both missles and a gun - I see no problem giving Amar a few.
The problem is not the moaning minnies "omg I have to train missiles AND guns AND drones omgccphatesmeh!".
All races must train missiles for max effectiveness
All races must train drones for max effectiveness
All races must train turrets for max effectiveness
The problem lies in the fact that even AFTER you train all of the above to max sp levels some ships still.....just plain suck. The cause of this black hole strength suckage is that thier dps is massively lower because both weapons systems don't get a bonus.
Unless you would like to make the argument that the Typhoon is well balanced and a great ship?
I didn't think so. The Sac and Veng suffer from the same issues as the Typhoon. Hawk and Ares as well. Gallente are the only ones who don't becuase drones kick butt as a secondary and primary weapon system.
Nyxus
Plasmatique> "Cry 'Cartiff' and let slip the dogs of war!" |
R31D
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Posted - 2005.11.29 17:35:00 -
[28]
I like the idea of Khanid ships, it's just a shame that they (like the Jaguar) don't have the slots to shieldtank. Destroyer gets 3/3 and as they are designed as a support ship, I can see them being used in groups only and fitting 3 damage mods, shieldtank, guns/missiles (hopefully). I like Khanids, I don't like the way they suck
Free bumpage for all |
Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.11.29 17:37:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Naughty Boy (sorry for bringing the minmatar complain over here)
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
No apologies needed Naughty, the Typhoon is a great example of how mixed weapon ships need help. Badly. No matter what the race, any ship that is 50/50 mixed with a weapon system that has no bonus will underperform. Period.
In the Phoon's case CCP needs to decide what it needs to do. If it's gonna shield tank, it needs more mids (think cyclone). If it's gonna armor tank then it needs a bit less shield and more armor, and more grid.
Sac is kinda in the same boat. But all mixed weapon ships need bonuses to both weapons so they start performing on par with other ships of thier class.
Nyxus
Plasmatique> "Cry 'Cartiff' and let slip the dogs of war!" |
Arleonenis
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Posted - 2005.11.29 18:17:00 -
[30]
i agree
first its true that mixed out weapons systems (50/50 is worst case) have usually bonus to just half of ship weapon systems, it may not sound bad but if one of those bonuses is damage bonus (for example at lvl5 25%) than you at start get 12,5% lower firepower than "pure" counterpart, its much worst if both bonuses are related to damage (in 50/50 example) you on start have 25% lower firepower.
Only mixed ship that is good is Nightmare becouse it have damage bonus to both weapon systems
sacrilege and vengence (good name vengence is true devs vengence on amarrians) goes even further in stupid design contest, resistances that works well really only on armor when ship is designed to shield tank? sacrilege is designed to shield tank, ok, it have stupid resistance bonuses for shield tankers but ok... but it have bonus to armor resistance? wtf? its weapon systems and lack of many true damage bonuses to them made it firepower close to regular tech1 cruiser not assault cruiser, on what they are supposed to made assault? untanked scythe with fusion ammo?
but munnin and wolf are supposed to armor tank when they resistance made them really good as shield tankers... another drunken dev design
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