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Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
125
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Posted - 2013.07.08 00:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hope this will excite a bit of dialog from both sides about Eve and its future. I KNOW this will get the rudimentary "Eve is dying" trolls in response but this community hopefully will elevate themselves above this and consider the possibility of an Eve 2.0
Over the years, this game has grown and there are parts and decisions that have hampered the direction and smooth upward flow of increased content and subscriptions. We have raised our voice in protest (and sometimes our pixel ammo) and directed that this game we love to invest our time and money in, will not join the ranks of Wing Commander or Privateer. We are constantly reminded (as we should be) that there are elements of this game that are 10yrs old which mean that the coding and disciplines have altered possibly drastically and if one touches a part, the whole thing could stop. That, I hope we agree, is something we do not want to happen.
So how could this be overcome?
If the code is now written well (as the maturity of the company has increased, thus the development has improved) and the general consensus is that the original code is so bad that it would not be worthwhile to tackle - what is the possibility of re-writing Eve? You would not be starting from scratch and you could write it in parallel on a development server. If the coding is sound, the methodology tried and tested and the lessons learnt from the first install (even including the change of language) what would be the problem and how long would this take? I ask this because I have a smattering of understanding of how programs work, but nothing like some of the community and of course the devs that currently work on Eve.
Would love to see instead of the normal - don't be stupid type reply, attempt to provide an understanding of how such a task COULD be undertaken... I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
261
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 00:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Klandi wrote:Hope this will excite a bit of dialog from both sides about Eve and its future. I KNOW this will get the rudimentary "Eve is dying" trolls in response but this community hopefully will elevate themselves above this and consider the possibility of an Eve 2.0
Over the years, this game has grown and there are parts and decisions that have hampered the direction and smooth upward flow of increased content and subscriptions. We have raised our voice in protest (and sometimes our pixel ammo) and directed that this game we love to invest our time and money in, will not join the ranks of Wing Commander or Privateer. We are constantly reminded (as we should be) that there are elements of this game that are 10yrs old which mean that the coding and disciplines have altered possibly drastically and if one touches a part, the whole thing could stop. That, I hope we agree, is something we do not want to happen.
So how could this be overcome?
If the code is now written well (as the maturity of the company has increased, thus the development has improved) and the general consensus is that the original code is so bad that it would not be worthwhile to tackle - what is the possibility of re-writing Eve? You would not be starting from scratch and you could write it in parallel on a development server. If the coding is sound, the methodology tried and tested and the lessons learnt from the first install (even including the change of language) what would be the problem and how long would this take? I ask this because I have a smattering of understanding of how programs work, but nothing like some of the community and of course the devs that currently work on Eve.
Would love to see instead of the normal - don't be stupid type reply, attempt to provide an understanding of how such a task COULD be undertaken... the devs have stated repeatedly that they won't do an EVE2.0, they will just continue to develop and upgrade this current version so whilst I think you are trying to get a hypothetical debate going, it feels like a moot point and perhaps a more interesting discussion is one around how the current systems could be enhanced in years to come. |
Pesky LaRue
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
261
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Posted - 2013.07.08 00:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
also, harrumph and harrumph, amongst others. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2820
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Posted - 2013.07.08 01:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
There are definitely parts of EVE that need to be rewritten, however, a do-over is not in order.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1614
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Posted - 2013.07.08 01:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
Rewriting everything is the /worst/ thing you can do. Especially as Eve has has serious reworking of code already.
Doing it in an iterative fashion is almost always the right approach. Like Crimewatch. That was a long process to get right, but now it's in place, it's a lot better.
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Felicity Love
Interstellar Booty Hunters
727
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Posted - 2013.07.08 01:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
... are you familiar with the term "shitstorm" ?
That's basically what would happen ingame right before the much bigger one in the gaming media as thousands of people pushed the "phukkit" button and unsubbed. In many cases, permanently.
Unlike 10 years ago, there are alot more MMO's out there these days, and alot more choices for computer and/or console gaming in any genre.
Nevermind the complications of being in business with SONY for the DUST bunnie side of things.
We gots what we gots.
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Regan Rotineque
Rl'yeh Interstellar Ltd. Mildly Sober
139
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Posted - 2013.07.08 02:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
posting in a stealth nerf high se.....
ummmmm
stealth nerf afk cloak.....ummmmm
stealth eve is dyin.....ummmm
hmmmm
its gotta be nerfin somthing |
Kanmar Centae
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.07.08 02:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thought it was a thread about doubling security in hisec to 2.0. Puts away popcorn. |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
456
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Posted - 2013.07.08 02:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
The Carbon initiative is rewriting much of the backend.
As for doing a 2.0 makeover to the user facing side... does anyone remember Star Wars Galaxies and how it fell from the best MMO on the market to a bad game in a single patch? Yeah, let's stick with iteration... |
Freakdevil
Aliastra Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.07.08 03:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Slap a 2.0 on the end, jack the monthly, add some Pink monsters and voila!
On a serious note, not a chance.
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Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
7804
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Posted - 2013.07.08 07:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
tl;dr drugs are bad mmkay You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |
Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
11
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Posted - 2013.07.08 08:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
I see this topic coming up recently. It should be because the login screen gone with the EVE version number. But you could check in the Esc Menu, About EVE tab, currently: Version: 8.31.564012
So EVE 2.0 would be a bad move backwards. :D |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
704
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Posted - 2013.07.08 08:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP failed World of Darkness development and I doubt they are capable to create another sandbox game comparable to EVE - not in this decade.
Surely as programmer I know each new version of same software is much better but also I remember how big is code for long-term projects: you cannot re-create code quickly if it was written during 10 years + you'll have many new problems / glitches. Full process will take years and result isn't necessary will be good for the company - substantial part of players may and will refuse to accept new product because it will be very different.
TL;DR not needed while EVE isn't dying. |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
183
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Posted - 2013.07.08 08:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aren't we already at Eve 19.0 or something. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
125
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Posted - 2013.07.08 09:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
I was talking specifically of re-writing the base code so it could be handled easier, made more modular and allow the fulfillment of stuff that needs to be redone like POSes.
The term Eve v2.0 is Eve as we know it but re-written from the ground up. I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2013.07.08 09:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Klandi wrote:I was talking specifically of re-writing the base code... The term Eve v2.0 is Eve as we know it but re-written from the ground up.
I think that's done with Linux, LibreOffice, Firefox, . However, are all Open Source programs that are worked on by thousands of programmers world wide. I don't think CCP is inclined to Open Source EVE Online, however. Watch this space.-á New exciting signature in development. |
Feer Truelight
138
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Posted - 2013.07.08 09:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
You want EVE 2.0? We have EVE 19.0.12!
That awkward moment when I'm salvaging a Minmatar wreck and after 10 minutes the player starts shooting at me.
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Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
5
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Posted - 2013.07.08 09:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
There are things like drones that are being worked on, that need serious code overhaul. Devs have said its a legacy code problem so they are doing what you suggest, just piece-meal rather than all at once, which is definitely the way to do it.
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Six Six Six
Blood and Decay
180
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Posted - 2013.07.08 09:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Create a new EVE in the image of EVE
Don't see the point of that as the current EVE isn't perfect but is playable and yeah I know about coding issues.
Then you have Dust to think about (don't think they would have bothered with Dust if they were considering overhauling EVE completely).
Wouldn't it be better to start a new game? Of course they already started with WoD although personally I think that might have been a mistake because of the subject matter.
Edit: One other thing to think about, if you completely redo the game then that is no longer the original game and they do seem to be proud of the fact they've kept the game going for over 10 years. |
RaTTuS
BIG Insidious Empire
294
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Posted - 2013.07.08 10:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
we are on eve 12 now .... I think
http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://imgur.com/nuBlxbC |
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Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
447
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Posted - 2013.07.08 10:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
It takes CCP forever to make even tiny changes to the current build. Any idea how long it would take for them to make a completely new one? Forever!
Thats why it won't ever happen. Nice idea though! Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
125
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Posted - 2013.07.08 13:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Create a new EVE in the image of EVE
Don't see the point of that as the current EVE isn't perfect but is playable and yeah I know about coding issues.
Then you have Dust to think about (don't think they would have bothered with Dust if they were considering overhauling EVE completely). Wouldn't it be better to start a new game? Of course they already started with WoD although personally I think that might have been a mistake because of the subject matter. Edit: One other thing to think about, if you completely redo the game then that is no longer the original game and they do seem to be proud of the fact they've kept the game going for over 10 years.
Again, you have missed the point.
Eve is what we want. Not a new Eve - I like the game we have. But the devs cannot change some parts of Eve without breaking it completely. So I want the "same" Eve but re-written so that it is easier to patch, update and tweak - where things like re-allocating resources to specific areas is problematic because of the organic nature of TQ.
tl;dr Same Eve - coded better - designed and coded in parallel with current Eve so that when one server (TQ)is turned off one day, the new one (TQ2) starts up with no one noticing the difference. I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Six Six Six
Blood and Decay
181
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Posted - 2013.07.08 13:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Klandi wrote:Six Six Six wrote:Create a new EVE in the image of EVE
Don't see the point of that as the current EVE isn't perfect but is playable and yeah I know about coding issues.
Then you have Dust to think about (don't think they would have bothered with Dust if they were considering overhauling EVE completely). Wouldn't it be better to start a new game? Of course they already started with WoD although personally I think that might have been a mistake because of the subject matter. Edit: One other thing to think about, if you completely redo the game then that is no longer the original game and they do seem to be proud of the fact they've kept the game going for over 10 years. Again, you have missed the point. Eve is what we want. Not a new Eve - I like the game we have. But the devs cannot change some parts of Eve without breaking it completely. So I want the "same" Eve but re-written so that it is easier to patch, update and tweak - where things like re-allocating resources to specific areas is problematic because of the organic nature of TQ. tl;dr Same Eve - coded better - designed and coded in parallel with current Eve so that when one server (TQ)is turned off one day, the new one (TQ2) starts up with no one noticing the difference.
I didn't miss your point. I know what you were talking about. Can't see it happening though. They will just replace the code they can as and when they can, so will just be patching what we already have.
If they wanted to update all of the code they should have done it before Dust.
I can see why my edit on that post might have confused you 'redo the game' what I meant by that as if they're redoing all the code that needed updating they'd also more than likely update things that could be updated that the update code would allow for.
There's always a chance to break part of the game when adding a new part to the game, old code or not.
Plus how much equipment is used with TQ and what amount of space is being taken up by that equipment? They would have to double that, it's not going to happen or at least very unlikely. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
RaTTuS wrote:we are on eve 12 now .... I think ^^ This. I think it was still EVE 11 some time around fanfest, but a lot has happened since thenGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Kali Maat
PVP FAST
40
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Posted - 2013.07.08 13:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
Rewriting everything is the /worst/ thing you can do. Especially as Eve has has serious reworking of code already.
Doing it in an iterative fashion is almost always the right approach. Like Crimewatch. That was a long process to get right, but now it's in place, it's a lot better.
"The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've been fixed." it says it all |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
125
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kali Maat wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
Rewriting everything is the /worst/ thing you can do. Especially as Eve has has serious reworking of code already.
Doing it in an iterative fashion is almost always the right approach. Like Crimewatch. That was a long process to get right, but now it's in place, it's a lot better.
"The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've been fixed." it says it all
Have you taken into consideration that in coding PRACTICES will be far better, making the coding PROCESS far more streamlined and easier to manage? Old code may have been tried and tested and patched ... and patched ... continually (with documentation not keeping up) until the whole thing becomes a risk and a nightmare to manage. All I am suggesting is starting to replace the old code that has been worked on for 10yrs with code that does the job more effectively.
Sounds like you subscribe to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" brigade. If you are not taking the consideration of change into the equation, this is an attitude that will cost you more in the short/long term. I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
573
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Posted - 2013.07.08 14:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Klandi wrote: The term Eve v2.0 is Eve as we know it but re-written from the ground up.
Rewriting from ground up, while keeping pace with changes to the running code is not commercially possible.
It would require a very large amount of resources dedicated to something that wouldn't have anything to show for it for years.
The current solution where code is recoded/replaced when deemed needed is the only way it can be done unless you've got a horde of volunteers working for free (or you're a government agency).
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
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Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
125
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote: I didn't miss your point. I know what you were talking about. Can't see it happening though. They will just replace the code they can as and when they can, so will just be patching what we already have.
If they wanted to update all of the code they should have done it before Dust.
I can see why my edit on that post might have confused you 'redo the game' what I meant by that as if they're redoing all the code that needed updating they'd also more than likely update things that could be updated that the update code would allow for.
There's always a chance to break part of the game when adding a new part to the game, old code or not.
Plus how much equipment is used with TQ and what amount of space is being taken up by that equipment? They would have to double that, it's not going to happen or at least very unlikely.
Understand .. I think ...
Here is a thought I want to share.
Ever since I have been excited by the news of organic/quantum computing using carbon compounds instead of silicon I have been eagerly awaiting the new hardware to become commercial - which should have been quite quick owing to they are just replacing the hardware - but was then informed by some lead Samsung engineers that it was not as simple as that. The base components that have 8bit code organizing the I/O has to undergo a complete change...on nearly all functions in the computer which means that the existing software that manages the core functionality will not work. We will need a completely new re-write. You can't use anything to cobble it together - you need a complete change.
Times will present themselves that will force all software manufacturers that the code they have will not support the application and needs to be changed. So you could say that this project will be a great forerunner to preparing for the new TQ ...
I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Six Six Six
Blood and Decay
183
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Klandi wrote: Here is a thought I want to share.
Ever since I have been excited by the news of organic/quantum computing using carbon compounds instead of silicon I have been eagerly awaiting the new hardware to become commercial - which should have been quite quick owing to they are just replacing the hardware - but was then informed by some lead Samsung engineers that it was not as simple as that. The base components that have 8bit code organizing the I/O has to undergo a complete change...on nearly all functions in the computer which means that the existing software that manages the core functionality will not work. We will need a completely new re-write. You can't use anything to cobble it together - you need a complete change.
Times will present themselves that will force all software manufacturers that the code they have will not support the application and needs to be changed. So you could say that this project will be a great forerunner to preparing for the new TQ ...
Probably not, could be that it'll mark the end of TQ although it wouldn't effect it for sometime as there would be plenty of people still using older technology. CCP would probably just work on something else. |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
157
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 15:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
There was a game called Neocron. It was a deus ex style cyberpunk mmorpg. You didn't need to sell the game, we came in droves begging for permission to play (FPS cyberpunk MMORPG OMGWTFBBQGRASS)
Anyway, they decided to do a Neocron 2 rather than keep Neocron and upgrade it, and basically it died. Really died. It's still about as a community built game, but its featureless, buggy and has a peak population of like 100.
Long and short of it is, rebuilding your game will rebuild your playerbase, and you may not like the outcome of that. Especially considering the enormous financial commitment a complete remake takes. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
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