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Hank Hakaarii
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.07.09 17:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nightmare Lows - Which and why for optimal damage / tracking relationship using Imperial Navy Tach beams and T1 crystals? I've not yet priced faction crystals, but they are an option if price / bonus relationship makes it viable:
3 T2 heat sinks and 2 T2 TE's
or
4 T2 heat sinks and 1 T2 TE?
I have:
GÇó One tracking computer with a tracking speed script in mid. GÇó Motion Prediction 4 GÇó Both Battleships to 4
Thanks for the input. |
Hakaimono
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
179
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Posted - 2013.07.09 17:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
With only four turrets, faction is totally worth it. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
468
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Posted - 2013.07.09 17:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
3 faction heatsinks 1 t2 heatsink 1 TE |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.07.09 17:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
With Motion Prediction 4 and both BS skills at 4 I'd say train Motion Prediction and both BS skills to 5 as soon as possible.
Seriously, 3x Heat Sink + 2 TEs.
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Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
468
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 17:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:With Motion Prediction 4 and both BS skills at 4 I'd say train Motion Prediction and both BS skills to 5 as soon as possible.
Seriously, 3x Heat Sink + 2 TEs.
he already has a TC in mid, 2 TE and a TC and the stacking penalty for that 2nd TE makes it close to worthless. |
Hank Hakaarii
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.07.09 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Would it be better to replace the TC with another hardner or boost amplifier, and have the 3/2 in the lows? |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
469
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Posted - 2013.07.09 19:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hank Hakaarii wrote:Would it be better to replace the TC with another hardner or boost amplifier, and have the 3/2 in the lows?
TEs got nerfed so you're not doing anything by changing things around like that.
You're reducing your range to increase your tank but range already gives you some tank so it's pointless. I would keep the TC because sometimes you might want to change scripts to shoot something closer. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Personally, I'd go for four heat sinks and a tracking enhancer. I also use three tracking computers with two running scripts (one each) and one unscripted. I find that four slots for tank (whether it's an XLSB with either three hardeners or two hardeners and an AB it doesn't matter) is sufficient for most every mission I do. |
Hank Hakaarii
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.07.09 20:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Originally my tank was an invuln and 2 specific hardners, a pith C Large booster and a CN Amplifier. I wasn't impressed with the shield recharge capabilities on a relatively easy mission, so I replaced the Pith C with a Pith X, and replaced the CN Amplifier with a Large ASB. I have not yet tried this in a mission to know how it will work though. I believe I went from about 300 HP/S recharge to somewhere between 600 / 700 HP/S recharge for as long as the capacitor / charges last. What are your thoughts on this?
The remaining mids are the TC and a large cap booster. I've got the cap booster as I haven't done missions in years, and I wanted that security blanket of extra capacitor on my new capacitor hungry ship that I've not flown before until I can shake off the rust. If I'm able to learn to manage my cap so that I don't need the cap booster, I'm debating between running with a TC and Sensor Booster (I can currently strike out to 150 with radio, but can't target beyond 100), or replacing the TC with one of those jump drive things (another new thing I've not used) and run with the jump drive and sensor booster.
Do scramming mission frigates disable the jump drive module as well? |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1271
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 10:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
i've been flying with four heat sinks and one (officer) TE for a while now. on the other hand, i always use two TCs, so ymmv.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Eternal Syndicate
25
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Posted - 2013.07.10 10:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
My fit is:
Tachs in high (obviously)
Med: 2 Shield hardeners T2 2 TE (range scripted), T2 1 SEBO (scan res), T2 1 Large shield booster, T2 MWD, T1
Lows: 4x Heatsink, T2 1x Damage control, T2
DC is there in case **** hits the fan and I get scramed while under heavy fire. Sebo is there to let u pop pesky little frigs on approach before they get a chance to orbit you. Booster is there moreless for show, rarely used more then 3-4 cycles. MWD is there to bridge the gap between ac gates in missions...
Its a pure (1000) DPS / distance tanker. Never had to warp out of the zone. I use it for any em/therm damage rats.
For Angels I have a Mach, and tengu for kinetic rats... and can do any extravaganza within 1 tick or less...
Have fun, take care.
I. |
Kozlack
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
4
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Posted - 2013.07.10 11:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
[Nightmare, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Train for T2 guns.... On vaction from hawk-eyeing local..... in empire |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1273
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 12:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kozlack wrote:[Nightmare, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
oh god....
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
70
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 12:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Kozlack wrote:[Nightmare, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
oh god....
If you could just let me know where you run missions from that would be great ;)
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Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
159
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yeah... I think I'd rather fly: [Nightmare, Kindasorta] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II
Gist A-Type X-Large Shield Booster Gist A-Type EM Ward Field Gist A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Auto Targeting System II Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
I've looked at T2 (large) beams and outside of long-range/MJD builds on non-apocalypse ships I don't really see that there's a lot of advantage to them over faction beams. They do approximately 95% of the damage for 76% of the capacitor consumed. The primary advantage of T2 beams over faction is the usage of T2 crystals, and while I've outlined a good use for Aurora crystals so far as I'm concerned Gleam crystals rather suck and are easily replaced by T2 pulse lasers with Conflagration crystals. You'd get comparable, though slightly shorter, range and superior tracking, damage, and capacitor consumption. |
Kozlack
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 12:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Shereza wrote:I've looked at T2 (large) beams and outside of long-range/MJD builds on non-apocalypse ships I don't really see that there's a lot of advantage to them over faction beams. They do approximately 95% of the damage for 76% of the capacitor consumed. The primary advantage of T2 beams over faction is the usage of T2 crystals, and while I've outlined a good use for Aurora crystals so far as I'm concerned Gleam crystals rather suck and are easily replaced by T2 pulse lasers with Conflagration crystals. You'd get comparable, though slightly shorter, range and superior tracking, damage, and capacitor consumption.
Uhh no, the reason to use T2 is that the T2 skill makes guns do more damage... l2p. Amarr BS 4/5 means you dont need TE's/TC's, besides that fact that anything buring right at you has super low transversal. TBH tho the fit I lnked was way too cap stable because I was too lazy to refit it in EFT with the Gist x MWD and SS Sensor boost. AND if you're doing L4's that are heavy TD'n you then you need to just get a raven with some faction launchers (Because missile spec 5 DOES NOT make T2 lauchers ROF faster then faction) and pewpew the stuff.
On vaction from hawk-eyeing local..... in empire |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
888
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 12:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nightmare, Level4 wrote: Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Tracking Enhancer II
Pith A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Pith A-Type EM Ward Field Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Booster II
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hobgoblin II x5
This works quite well once your gunnery skills are up to snuff. If your gunnery skills are bad, you might need more tank. As a general rule, that booster and cap booster aren't needed on 9/10 missions, but I keep it there as a safety net. You can also swap the 4th heat sink for T2 and lose very little damage. Faction TE isn't really worth it, the faction TCs are... but they're pricey. I just stick to T2 on my Nightmare. |
BadAssMcKill
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
291
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 12:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't really do missions a lot but I've used this and it works for most missions http://puu.sh/3zqt4.png
You can fit a prop for missions that have a lot of gates or fit tachs for sniping missions http://i.imgur.com/6j6cIZE.gif-á |
Hulasikaly Wada
True Energy
23
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Nightmare, Level4 wrote: Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Tracking Enhancer II
Pith A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field Pith A-Type EM Ward Field Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Booster II
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hobgoblin II x5
This works quite well once your gunnery skills are up to snuff. If your gunnery skills are bad, you might need more tank. As a general rule, that booster and cap booster aren't needed on 9/10 missions, but I keep it there as a safety net. You can also swap the 4th heat sink for T2 and lose very little damage. Faction TE isn't really worth it, the faction TCs are... but they're pricey. I just stick to T2 on my Nightmare.
Yeah, most important upgrade here is to go with faction lens ( last something like 8 hours NON-stop shooting ) Best rigs IMO are 1 turrets optimal T2 ones , + cap capacity and the a CCC Guns can stay to faction quite well without use too much isk ( non in a PULSE fit -->> need to can use scorc ) A little better shield booster can make it tank 20% more without bleeding 1/2 billion isk , and already someone said, 3rd and 4th heat sinks can be t2 without lose to much dps
Hula |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kozlack wrote:Uhh no, the reason to use T2 is that the T2 skill makes guns do more damage... l2p.
Covered that. Faction do 95% of the damage at 76% of the capacitor consumption when using T1 and faction crystals. That leaves using T2 damage crystals to "make guns do more damage" which gets trumped by pulse lasers.
Kozlack wrote:Amarr BS 4/5 means you dont need TE's/TC's, besides that fact that anything buring right at you has super low transversal.
Tracking enhancers and computers do more than boost tracking, they boost optimal range and falloff. I rather like being able to eke out 44km optimal with tachyons. Of course I also like being able to peg frigates at 15km and under and avoiding as much as possible situations such as the one I find my machariel in all too frequently where NPC frigates are able to avoid all but its first round of fire at them until they get in so close not even ACs will hit them and I have to deploy drones.
I'm still puzzled by that one. The frigates come rushing in, orbit one of the ships I have in the mission area, and the entire time my machariel can't even touch them. It can't touch them when they're coming in from 40km out, it can't touch them as they close in, it can't touch them as it burns out to 40km, and I generally have to resort to using drones to off them. All things considered I doubt that enhancing the tracking on my ships, especially on tachyon lasers, is going to help reduce the chances of something like that happening, but at the very least it provides a placebo effect.
Kozlack wrote:AND if you're doing L4's that are heavy TD'n you then you need to just get a raven with some faction launchers (Because missile spec 5 DOES NOT make T2 lauchers ROF faster then faction) and pewpew the stuff.
Or an armageddon. It would take many players a bit to recover from either fit we posted if they were to build it from scratch and didn't already have comparable modules laying about, and a cheaper alternative to a navy raven is useful. |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
124
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Wow some ummm "interesting" fits posted here.
I use a cap booster with 2 TC in the mids and lows with 1 TE + 4 faction heatsinks.
A deadspace shield booster is helpful but the rest of the tank is fine with T2. Using faction or deadspace invulns and SBA paint a sign on your ship that says "please gank me"
If you're having issues with tank it means you're not putting out enough DPS to kill the rats fast enough. Your gun DPS should be at least 750 with multifreq. If it's any less than that something is wrong with your skills or fitting. You want the gun DPS to be around 1000.
Also faction or T2 crystals are standard practice for any laser ship since they don't cost much and last a long time. The extra DPS will pay for itself. |
Julius Priscus
118
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
REALLY????
there is so many levels of fail on this fit.
Kozlack wrote:[Nightmare, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink True Sansha Heat Sink
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Train for T2 guns....
-»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1277
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 16:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Shereza wrote:Kozlack wrote:Uhh no, the reason to use T2 is that the T2 skill makes guns do more damage... l2p. Covered that. Faction do 95% of the damage at 76% of the capacitor consumption when using T1 and faction crystals. That leaves using T2 damage crystals to "make guns do more damage" which gets trumped by pulse lasers. Kozlack wrote:Amarr BS 4/5 means you dont need TE's/TC's, besides that fact that anything buring right at you has super low transversal. Tracking enhancers and computers do more than boost tracking, they boost optimal range and falloff. I rather like being able to eke out 44km optimal with tachyons. Of course I also like being able to peg frigates at 15km and under and avoiding as much as possible situations such as the one I find my machariel in all too frequently where NPC frigates are able to avoid all but its first round of fire at them until they get in so close not even ACs will hit them and I have to deploy drones. I'm still puzzled by that one. The frigates come rushing in, orbit one of the ships I have in the mission area, and the entire time my machariel can't even touch them. It can't touch them when they're coming in from 40km out, it can't touch them as they close in, it can't touch them as it burns out to 40km, and I generally have to resort to using drones to off them. All things considered I doubt that enhancing the tracking on my ships, especially on tachyon lasers, is going to help reduce the chances of something like that happening, but at the very least it provides a placebo effect. Kozlack wrote:AND if you're doing L4's that are heavy TD'n you then you need to just get a raven with some faction launchers (Because missile spec 5 DOES NOT make T2 lauchers ROF faster then faction) and pewpew the stuff. Or an armageddon. It would take many players a bit to recover from either fit we posted if they were to build it from scratch and didn't already have comparable modules laying about, and a cheaper alternative to a navy raven is useful. don't bash this guy. clearly, he is 'special'...
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Hank Hakaarii
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 18:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
So here's what I ended up doing...
Highs:
Imperial Navy Tach Beams with Imperial Navy Crystals. Multi, Ultra, and Microwave for their respective ranges. Currently the Microwave will reach out further than I can target.
Mids:
Pith X Large Shield Booster Large ASB Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Adaptive Invuln Caldari Navy Mission Specific Caldari Navy Secondary Mission Specific Tracking Computer (Meta 4 due to skills)
Lows:
T2 Heat Sink T2 Heat Sink T2 Heat Sink T2 TE T2 TE
Rigs:
Large Energy Turret tracking speed bonus (forget the name) EM Hardner Thermal Hardner
I'm cap stable without the Pith X running, and can last just under 2 minutes with everything running.
I'm considering dropping the Amplifier for that jump drive thing. I've not tried that, but I like the idea of hitting a button and instantly having more space between them and I. But if I were to do that, I'd need to drop the ASB most likely to get a sensor booster on so that my targeting range increases from 100km. Hmm...
And to add to the fun...I'm not using it against rats weak to lasers. :) I don't want to hear any garbage about it not being efficient either. I like lasers...so I use lasers. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 19:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
IIshira wrote:A deadspace shield booster is helpful but the rest of the tank is fine with T2. Using faction or deadspace invulns and SBA paint a sign on your ship that says "please gank me"
The thing is that if you're already using a deadspace booster trying to keep the "gank bait" factor down is probably pointless. Worse still is the fact that if you're careful and smart you can significantly reduce the chances of being ganked while using such modules. I've been flying expensive ships and fits in high-sec L4s for the better part of 5 years now and I have yet to get ganked.
Yes, yes, "eventually" it will happen, but so far "eventually' seems to be pretty low order odds and getting lower with each month that passes.
The fact is that the Gist A-Type XL booster, EM hardener, and thermal hardener come in at or cheaper than the X-Type XLSB on the market so if you're going to okay an X-Type XLSB you might as well okay three A-Types.
IIshira wrote:If you're having issues with tank it means you're not putting out enough DPS to kill the rats fast enough. Your gun DPS should be at least 750 with multifreq. If it's any less than that something is wrong with your skills or fitting. You want the gun DPS to be around 1000.
You can hit 1001 rDPS with a nightmare using T2 tachyons, AmNav MF crystals, and 5 faction heat sinks. You can eke out 1015 with gleam. With T2 pulses and conflagration you'll reach 1182 while ANMF crystals will yield 1059 rDPS. Drop one heat sink and you'll get 1033 with ANMF crystals.
In short while 1100 DPS might be practical for pulse laser builds it's not very practical for tachyon laser builds, and a lot of nightmare build are tachyon builds.
IIshira wrote:Also faction or T2 crystals are standard practice for any laser ship since they don't cost much and last a long time. The extra DPS will pay for itself.
And some people, like myself, tend to avoid them outside of specific circumstances like Spike'ing rats from 150km on WC4 with my rokh or Scorch on my naval apocalypse just to keep things simple, at least for laser ships.
Hank Hakaarii wrote: And to add to the fun...I'm not using it against rats weak to lasers. :) I don't want to hear any garbage about it not being efficient either. I like lasers...so I use lasers.
If you're not dealing with EM-weak NPCs like Blood Raiders or Sansha then you can get a better-than-EM/Thermal tank with fewer tanking modules resulting in your ship being a tad over-tanked, especially with the LASB. On top of that unless you do a lot of mercenary or rogue drone missions or want to do missions without needing to change out your hardeners invulnerability fields aren't really needed.
You've got six modules for tanking. If you drop them to the booster, amp, and one each rat damage hardeners you should be fine. If that's not enough you might consider swapping the amplifier out for a second rat-specific hardener for your enemy's primary damage type. A CalNav amplifier might be good for boosting capacitor efficiency, but a second hardener is better for boosting your tank while your capacitor lasts.
Also, if capacitor is that much of an issue you should really fit vampires. Even if they don't function the same as they do in PvP a pair of vampires, even mediums, can help you eke through tight places where you might otherwise have to warp out. |
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