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Vito Tattaglia
Shinigami Miners
148
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Posted - 2013.07.10 21:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm just curious as to what this board's financial experts would consider the closest thing to a stock market in Eve. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
184
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Posted - 2013.07.10 22:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Closest things to stocks in eve is ... let me see..
Shares?
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Vito Tattaglia
Shinigami Miners
148
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Posted - 2013.07.11 00:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Closest things to stocks in eve is ... let me see.. Shares?
That would be implying that that feature is actually used in a similar way to the real world. If the majority of corporations sold their shares and paid dividends it would be really nice. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
184
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Posted - 2013.07.11 00:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vito Tattaglia wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:Closest things to stocks in eve is ... let me see.. Shares? That would be implying that that feature is actually used in a similar way to the real world. If the majority of corporations sold their shares and paid dividends it would be really nice.
Maybe not a majority, but there are some.
Its one of those catch 22 things..
I wont invest cause no one is selling
I wont sell cause no one is investing..
A long standing problem in MD also not helped by the trust issues ofc.
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Vito Tattaglia
Shinigami Miners
148
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Posted - 2013.07.11 00:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Vito Tattaglia wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:Closest things to stocks in eve is ... let me see.. Shares? That would be implying that that feature is actually used in a similar way to the real world. If the majority of corporations sold their shares and paid dividends it would be really nice. Maybe not a majority, but there are some. Its one of those catch 22 things.. I wont invest cause no one is selling I wont sell cause no one is investing.. A long standing problem in MD also not helped by the trust issues ofc.
Man, that would be cool if it was implemented. I feel like it would bring fast paced market action that has the possibility of huge short term gains and long term investments. The short term excitement is why things like Blink are so successful. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
184
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Posted - 2013.07.11 00:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vito Tattaglia wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:Vito Tattaglia wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:Closest things to stocks in eve is ... let me see.. Shares? That would be implying that that feature is actually used in a similar way to the real world. If the majority of corporations sold their shares and paid dividends it would be really nice. Maybe not a majority, but there are some. Its one of those catch 22 things.. I wont invest cause no one is selling I wont sell cause no one is investing.. A long standing problem in MD also not helped by the trust issues ofc. Man, that would be cool if it was implemented. I feel like it would bring fast paced market action that has the possibility of huge short term gains and long term investments. The short term excitement is why things like Blink are so successful.
Problem is all the prior attempts to launch ended up one man shows, and that is hard to foster trust on. We need a broad and more public owned and operated stock exchange to really kickstart a shares market.
The only alternative is to hope CCP will finally get around and make it an ingame feature. CREST however could be a solution..
There are as mentioned already a nice number of public traded products shares and bonds..
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Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition Insurance Fraud.
302
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Posted - 2013.07.11 03:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
I use shares exactly as they were intended.
I just only allow trade between friends because: trust: There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency. |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
157
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Posted - 2013.07.11 22:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote: There are as mentioned already a nice number of public traded products shares and bonds..
BMBE and SIRIUS are still active and paying interest.
http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/home/index.php
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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
186
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Posted - 2013.07.11 23:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
As you can see we have actually got these things running. The problem is as mentioned its a rather huge thing to lift being just one man. A few like it have risen and fallen, only Block managed to stay the course.
Sadly most EVE related projects are solo projects, thus however AWESOME if the individual is "hit by burn out bus" these services future are in peril.
Hopefully CCP will realize these things need some better tools and support from ccp side, or we wont "evolve" into the maturity they speak of these days..
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SencneS
Incertae Sedis
30
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Posted - 2013.07.15 21:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Hopefully CCP will realize these things need some better tools and support from ccp side, or we wont "evolve" into the maturity they speak of these days..
The biggest problem with CCP realizing this is they can't see past pew-pew...
Sure they know industry and economic is vital for EVE's survival, but years of empty promises for that "Awesome Industry Expansion/Revisiting" came in the form of PI, adding to an already complex system, with little to zero fixes in every other areas of industry.
It would seem CCP is just a little reluctance for change. Which may be the reason why there has been no change. For 10 years now, the industry has been enough to hold carebears and power industry types interest in the game. Meta-Game Finance has never changed and is fully developed by the player, something we did, and not CCP... So a threat to change it would certainly cause HUGE waves of tears and "Adapt or Die" posts.
I've seen countless good ideas, and came up with a few concepts myself which would all make Industry and finance easier, yet all the ideas did nothing for pew-pew so they are and never will be - priority. |
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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
195
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Posted - 2013.07.15 22:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
SencneS wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:Hopefully CCP will realize these things need some better tools and support from ccp side, or we wont "evolve" into the maturity they speak of these days.. The biggest problem with CCP realizing this is they can't see past pew-pew... Sure they know industry and economic is vital for EVE's survival, but years of empty promises for that "Awesome Industry Expansion/Revisiting" came in the form of PI, adding to an already complex system, with little to zero fixes in every other areas of industry. It would seem CCP is just a little reluctance for change. Which may be the reason why there has been no change. For 10 years now, the industry has been enough to hold carebears and power industry types interest in the game. Meta-Game Finance has never changed and is fully developed by the player, something we did, and not CCP... So a threat to change it would certainly cause HUGE waves of tears and "Adapt or Die" posts. I've seen countless good ideas, and came up with a few concepts myself which would all make Industry and finance easier, yet all the ideas did nothing for pew-pew so they are and never will be - priority.
Major issue is that you need things going out of the cycle of life. This would mean wear and tear and more fuel / upkeep based systems. Otherwise you could not mature the game for more collaborative behaviour and "peace" beneficial activity. In its current format EVE needs hyper competition and broken window economics. Hopefully there will be considerations of shifting this balance, if for nothing else, then to make the game a little more open for new players and the carebears. This would be gradual, but eventually destruction needs to shift into something more player motivated and not merely for the lulz. I dont have any issue with pvp and destruction, I just find to much unwarrented destruction in dumbing the game down. Its nice that so many big alliances are showing how these things can and should change. Here I am especially thinking Goons lately, regardless of Gevlons failed claim that they must be broke since they use cheaper gear. (to much wow twnking I guess)
Oh well SencneS we could ramble on forever on these things.. and have already done so for years..
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SencneS
Incertae Sedis
31
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Posted - 2013.07.16 00:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Oh well SencneS we could ramble on forever on these things.. and have already done so for years..
That is a certainty |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
196
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Posted - 2013.07.16 06:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
SencneS wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:Oh well SencneS we could ramble on forever on these things.. and have already done so for years.. That is a certainty
On these issues I sometimes feel we are the spaz-kids of EVE, that ccp have no idea what to do with (anymore). Some light with the "new" directions cc Seagull seem to be focused on. If you have not seen them yet the FanFest presentations are very interesting. Also we have some rather good CSM people this time around for the issues we have pointed at forever..
Personal high priorities.
Slow down the isk faucets.
More player to player controlled markets.
Better balanced timesinks and more liberal markets (degrees of freedom, contracts, orders and service slots)
Better UI
To name a few .. |
arabella blood
Logistical Nightmare.
77
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Posted - 2013.07.16 08:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
I guess we can't expect a "trading expandion". But we can get some new/changes done little by little. Even some small UI changes, or some new contracts could mean a LOT at this point of stagnation.
On the other end, even some unrelated changes generate "content" to us, usually. |
Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2013.07.16 12:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
If CCP would let me charge micro-subscriptions I would finish the accounting software I'm working on. It automatically transforms API transactions to financial entries and for the ones that it can't, it flags them for manual accounting. This would go a long way towards enabling an auditor to just look at the finances and not try to work out what the API transactions means or use some program that doesn't properly account for Cost of Goods Sold(COGS), thereby rendering income statements fairly useless exercises and balance sheets something of an art instead of a science.
This would in turn better support ownership equity since companies could accurately report on profits and allocate dividends appropriately. IPOs should be spending a majority of their time on the operations of their business and relatively little on maintaining good accounting. This is why Bonds have taken over - the reporting requirement is nearly non-existent.
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SencneS
Incertae Sedis
31
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Posted - 2013.07.16 14:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
@Hexxx - I still have all those Visio flows I created because one day someone will want them.. Just have to find them
@Arabella Blood - I've been in plenty of games which have a full player produced item from mined/farmed materials even a global exchange that is rather simple compared to EVE's "Travel to item to pickup"..
EVE's Trading system is still always a benchmark other games attempt to live up to, at least for me. The only real things CCP could do for trading expansions are, trivial. Things like - Auto generate courier contract on purchase, or auto-renewing buy/sell orders. Cross Regional market trading (but I think that would break a little of the market dynamics).
EVE's Trading is pretty generic but I think that is what make it so solid, apart from a few things most of it is unmatched compared to other games. |
arabella blood
Logistical Nightmare.
78
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Posted - 2013.07.16 15:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
SencneS wrote:@Hexxx - I still have all those Visio flows I created because one day someone will want them.. Just have to find them @Arabella Blood - I've been in plenty of games which have a full player produced item from mined/farmed materials even a global exchange that is rather simple compared to EVE's "Travel to item to pickup".. EVE's Trading system is still always a benchmark other games attempt to live up to, at least for me. The only real things CCP could do for trading expansions are, trivial. Things like - Auto generate courier contract on purchase, or auto-renewing buy/sell orders. Cross Regional market trading (but I think that would break a little of the market dynamics). EVE's Trading is pretty generic but I think that is what make it so solid, apart from a few things most of it is unmatched compared to other games.
Just because it's unmatched, doesn't make it perfect or good (although its good). there is always room for improvment.
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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
196
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Posted - 2013.07.16 16:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Well the "Good" is that its core was pretty solid in its philosophy. It basically created an exchange based economy with its market, no binding mechanics BS and ofc the very deep player created goods and a semi well balanced ecology of raw materials.
What EVE needs to grow up is a better functionality and seperation between exchange market and retail market. This is where something like customizing ships and gear would be highly useful.
The easy way to achieve this would be to add more time sinks along the productionline, and make insurance better balanced and add a player created version of this. That would mean that standing and player "history" features would need some minor tweaks, to make it possible to do the number crunching for a proper insurance / reimbursement scheme.
Fact is that we kinda have these things, with alliance and corp reimbursements and similar activity, but its not been integrated or allowed a proper evolution. This basically goes back to how groups gain assets in EVE there is to much faux control based afk income for groups and little bottom up economy. The taxation and fees system seem to have been left as a vestigal thought, and is mainly used in EVE as an npc money sink.
EVE needs more player to player controlled economy and the ability to compete with all the npc based services.
Also dropping the LP (Character bound crap) and changing it to something like a faction based currency, that players can trade on open markets. Then moving all npc seeded items into the faction stores and let players become the natural middlemen in these transactions. Even improving the demands for the faction store goods to be linked into some upgrade to the PVE experience would help a LOT.
As Hexxx mentioned a core feature needed to make something like shares an actual reality in EVE would be control with ownership and the ability to actually develop brands, and services. This also ties back to the retail, the insurance and the bottom up taxation economy. With such things and better tools to share information in the form of financial reports and business and political goals, would make a real shares market a natural developing thing.
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Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2013.07.16 17:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
@Caleb
Having attempted player based insurance with Sencnes I can say that the interest just isn't there. Even with the value added services. Two theories on why this is:
1. I don't think people actually use insurance in game that much. CCP could provide data to confirm this. 2. People aren't ready for it. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
197
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Posted - 2013.07.16 17:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hexxx wrote:@Caleb
Having attempted player based insurance with Sencnes I can say that the interest just isn't there. Even with the value added services. Two theories on why this is:
1. I don't think people actually use insurance in game that much. CCP could provide data to confirm this. 2. People aren't ready for it.
I guess that ties back to some of the mentioned fundamentals that would need to change.
That was why I mentioned the customizing and retailing. Also actuarial aspects in eneral would need some better warranting.
If your relationship with an insurance business could develop and had reasons adn motivations to do so it would become a natural part of the game.
The current insurance mechanics is merely a slight economic damage reduction, not a significant one, and thus not a viable functionality.
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arabella blood
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2013.07.16 17:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hexxx wrote:@Caleb
Having attempted player based insurance with Sencnes I can say that the interest just isn't there. Even with the value added services. Two theories on why this is:
1. I don't think people actually use insurance in game that much. CCP could provide data to confirm this. 2. People aren't ready for it.
Perhaps it was more "hassle" to do it through your service then clicking few clicks on the monitor?
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Hexxx
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
37
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Posted - 2013.07.16 21:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
arabella blood wrote:Hexxx wrote:@Caleb
Having attempted player based insurance with Sencnes I can say that the interest just isn't there. Even with the value added services. Two theories on why this is:
1. I don't think people actually use insurance in game that much. CCP could provide data to confirm this. 2. People aren't ready for it. Perhaps it was more "hassle" to do it through your service then clicking few clicks on the monitor?
We attempted to counter the extra effort with value adds like policies that were pilot specific instead of ship specific and enhanced reporting across multiple characters. Its possible that a big part of this was just a few extra clicks. Either way, we gave it a very good try and it failed none the less. Never know for sure until you try. |
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