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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Mighty Judge
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Posted - 2005.12.09 08:35:00 -
[1]
Ok heres my gripe, I played Eve over a year ago for a bit and stopped playing purely for money reasons due to having too many MMO subscriptions, I never stopped playing eve because I didnt like it, anyway enough of the life story, I decided to start my subcription again.
I decided to have a bit of practice due to being rusty so I took my battleship out to do a lvl 1 mission, once I started I let off my cruise missiles, I couldnt work out why they were only doing 20 damage to an npc frigate, after scratching my head I started to do a bit of research into it and found out missiles got "balanced".
I honestly cant describe my disappointment, reading through some of the posts and hearing arguments like trying to hit a little frigate would be hard to do etc, lets try this analogy - shooting a bazooka at a mouse, sure you wont hit it but I can guarantee after the dust settles from the explosion it will be dead. Thus, sure a cruise missile will not get a direct hit on the hull of a frigate but the blast radius will surely clean it up. This missile "balance" has taken alot away from the game, it doesn't serve for any realism or entertainment value and really has taken away the effectiveness of battleships.
Battleships are 100 times the size and 500 times the cost of a frigate......of course they should smash them without a 2nd thought, I find it a shame a battleship has alot of trouble vs 2 pirate npc cruisers. I think you will find many new players will not see the point in putting in the work to get a battleship to find it effectively useless. Do we want to turn this into a mining game because killing/missions are not even remotely fun?
Sure it sucked when I had a frigate and you get 2 shot by a battleship gate ganking but hey I accepted it, with the satisfaction of the knowledge that I too one day would have a battleship. Now I dont see the point of it.
Cruise missile does 20 damage to npc frigate??? 80 damage to a npc cruiser??? Come on....
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.12.09 08:38:00 -
[2]
It's fine.
My cruise missiles do 550+ damage against NPC frigs... ______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Teles666
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Posted - 2005.12.09 08:39:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Teles666 on 09/12/2005 08:40:27 It is realistic - to a degree - the largest missiles cannot hit the fastest boats. They can't even get within half a mile most the time.
The graphics that show it hitting bug me, and the fact that the calculation is so basic that a statiomary ship still doesn't get hit for full annoys me.
My advice to you is look at all the missile skills which are available now, look at not using cruise for *everything* and look at the dev blog on the new tweaks and t2 missiles - you may be pleasantly surprised with what you see.
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2005.12.09 09:01:00 -
[4]
Please dont combine real life analogies and EVE, they just dont mix.
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Mighty Judge
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Posted - 2005.12.09 09:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Teles666 Edited by: Teles666 on 09/12/2005 08:40:27 It is realistic - to a degree - the largest missiles cannot hit the fastest boats. They can't even get within half a mile most the time.
The graphics that show it hitting bug me, and the fact that the calculation is so basic that a statiomary ship still doesn't get hit for full annoys me.
My advice to you is look at all the missile skills which are available now, look at not using cruise for *everything* and look at the dev blog on the new tweaks and t2 missiles - you may be pleasantly surprised with what you see.
Cheers I will, perhaps there are some things I overlooked, I did try to use heavy and even light missiles and found it took over 5 mins to kill a moa npc.
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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.12.09 09:48:00 -
[6]
To keep you up to date about the "behind the scenes" missile changes Devs were faced with several problems.
Everyone was flying Ravens due to its overwellming power when facing any situation.
If you were flying a Raven you would WTFPWN any ship in any situation that you might encounter. Ravens where unbalanced because your target spectrum would be from the fastest interceptor to the slowest BS. Other BS didn't had such an advantage.
Everybody, even newbie chars with low missile skills, could use it very efficiently and everybody were doing Agent kill missions with it.
Devs were faced with this problem and decided to act. Multi classes fleet battles were another point, everyone were flying BS and the fleet engagements were BS only. No point in fighting with a interceptor when your enemy's BIG missiles could kill you in a blink off an eye.
Ship control is still point and click in space and with things like lag there was no way, even if the big missiles were slow turning, for a interceptor pilot to dodge a torpedo salvo.
So some argued that BIG missiles needed to be slower but that would be a problem in long range fleet engagements rendering Caldari based BS a big pile of crap.
So, after a long discution, devs decided for this solution. This isn't perfect yet and devs reconise that, but the time to find and code a perfect one would criple EVE even more.
Train the advanced skills and you will find several good things in the changes, specially when facing other BS.
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Mikhael Mek'lanavar
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Posted - 2005.12.09 10:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Avon
It's fine.
My cruise missiles do 550+ damage against NPC frigs...
Avon,
I would love to know your skills and ship setup that allows you to do 550+ damage to frigs with cruise missiles
Cheers CamMan
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2005.12.09 10:24:00 -
[8]
I've started training missiles with my alt. He has 40k in missile skills. Heavy missiles lv1 and he hits for 81' on every hit. Id like to see a person with 60k in gunnery skills get the same hits.
Having to live on, one knows better than to value life too much.
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Jon Hawkes
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Posted - 2005.12.09 10:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mikhael Mek'lanavar
Originally by: Avon
It's fine.
My cruise missiles do 550+ damage against NPC frigs...
Avon,
I would love to know your skills and ship setup that allows you to do 550+ damage to frigs with cruise missiles
Cheers CamMan
The ship could be a Stealth Bomber. They can hit all frigs, except for Interceptors, for full damage with Cruise Missiles.
Free production, refining and POS resouces site |
kebab v2
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Posted - 2005.12.09 10:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mighty Judge
Originally by: Teles666 Edited by: Teles666 on 09/12/2005 08:40:27 It is realistic - to a degree - the largest missiles cannot hit the fastest boats. They can't even get within half a mile most the time.
The graphics that show it hitting bug me, and the fact that the calculation is so basic that a statiomary ship still doesn't get hit for full annoys me.
My advice to you is look at all the missile skills which are available now, look at not using cruise for *everything* and look at the dev blog on the new tweaks and t2 missiles - you may be pleasantly surprised with what you see.
Cheers I will, perhaps there are some things I overlooked, I did try to use heavy and even light missiles and found it took over 5 mins to kill a moa npc.
have you even trained any of the new skills? "I made this sig while i should of been working"
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Lord Aradon
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Posted - 2005.12.09 10:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Avon
It's fine.
My cruise missiles do 550+ damage against NPC frigs...
WHOA!!!!
Frigs?? How many fecking skills you got in the missile dept, and how good is your hardwiring?
JESUS!!
Free Websites |
Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.12.09 10:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Avon
It's fine.
My cruise missiles do 550+ damage against NPC frigs...
How the hell do you manage that?
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Mikhael Mek'lanavar
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Posted - 2005.12.09 11:09:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Mikhael Mek''lanavar on 09/12/2005 11:11:25
Even at full damage of a cruise 550+ is pretty damn good
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.12.09 11:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jon Hawkes
Originally by: Mikhael Mek'lanavar
Originally by: Avon
It's fine.
My cruise missiles do 550+ damage against NPC frigs...
Avon,
I would love to know your skills and ship setup that allows you to do 550+ damage to frigs with cruise missiles
Cheers CamMan
The ship could be a Stealth Bomber. They can hit all frigs, except for Interceptors, for full damage with Cruise Missiles.
Ding ding - we have a winner!
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Dakath
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:06:00 -
[15]
I have been training and using the new missile skills. While by design they cannot make a Raven what it used to be they are pretty good. My light missiles hit at over 70km now and hit hard.
One part of the adjustment that I feel was a little overdone was the large increase in power grid required by launchers. A little help, CCP?
To help with power grid requirements you need to train Weapon Upgrades and Advanced weapon upgrades. These are listed as gunnery skills but they reduce the power grid requirements for launchers as well.
Solo playing is a valid play style. Or at least CCP thinks the money they get is valid. |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:17:00 -
[16]
Short and sweet.
Your analagy, bazooka would kill a mouse
My analagy, a large laser cant hit a frig why should a big missile?
Torps and cruise doing next to no damage is an "easy" way of saying you "missed" but it simplfies the game mechanics.
Train up some skills and red Aelius's post.
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Garik Daemon
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:28:00 -
[17]
Moved from Eve General Discussion to Ships and Modules
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:58:00 -
[18]
Wait for T2 missiles then laugh.
Broken? Yes, very. It's going to make a mockery of combat if it goes in as-is.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Lakota Darkstar
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:04:00 -
[19]
I think it's fine. It's hard to hit a frigate with a tachyon beam so why should the equivalent in missiles automatically do max damage? It shouldn't, hence why it was "balanced". Small guns for small targets, small missiles too.
At least you get a skill to decrease missile explosion radius, where's the turret sig radius decrease skill eh?
Quote: Wait for T2 missiles then laugh.
Broken? Yes, very. It's going to make a mockery of combat if it goes in as-is.
Oh dear. I haven't read up on that. What are they doing?
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Forsch
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mighty Judge lets try this analogy - shooting a bazooka at a mouse, sure you wont hit it but I can guarantee after the dust settles from the explosion it will be dead.
Try hitting a bird with a bazooka.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:38:00 -
[21]
the new missile system needs a few tweakings, her and there, and ccp is on it alrdy.
but i as pure caldari love the missile change - makes usin missile boats so much more fun, especially in groups.
experience and skillpoints in missiles makes way up for the i win buttong gainst frigates we had.
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:50:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Mighty Judge lets try this analogy - shooting a bazooka at a mouse, sure you wont hit it but I can guarantee after the dust settles from the explosion it will be dead.
Try hitting a bird with a bazooka.
Not that hard for a turret boat at distance.
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.12.09 15:20:00 -
[23]
turrets can not hit frigs on short range, they can change this by fitting tracking computers or fit smaller guns. tough all turrets can kil evryting on good range.
missiles can not kill frigs on short neather long range neather have they got actualy working things like tracking comp's ( no TP does not work effectivly on missiles and ccp once said themselve they where designed for turret users)
TP get effective when using 5+ of them on 1 target..
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Rafein
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Posted - 2005.12.09 15:31:00 -
[24]
and Target Painters are just as effective for gunnery skills as it is for missile skills, as higher sig radius gives a gunner more hits, and more good hits.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.12.09 15:32:00 -
[25]
"Ding ding - we have a winner!"
Stealth bombers have a very large bonus to explosion radius of cruise missiles... large to the point where what they are shooting is pretty much no cruise missile anymore. It's like basing opinion on performance of blasters on unique ship that gets 100-200% damage bonus to them :/
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2005.12.09 16:01:00 -
[26]
Ahahahahahahahaha you used the word realism in a discussion about game design and balance! If we're gonna take realism into consideration, we wouldn't be able to pilot ships the way we are right now anyhow. Ships would not have varying top speeds, they would not be able to crash into eachother at 3km/s and they would not be able to deaccelerate from several times the speed of light to a complete stop.
I'd say battleship missiles and turrets are fairly balanced to eachother, they just operate differently. If you fire all your turrets at one frig, you'll be lucky to find that one of your turrets hits. When they do hit, they hit hard, but you rarely ever hit with more than one turret. Fire a full volley of cruise missiles on a frig, and they will do crap damage, but the thing is that they ALL DO damage to the frig that adds up to a fair amount, unless it outruns the explosion velocity.
This is to me the only flaw about the current system: explosion velocity. With enough speed, a frig is invulnerable to cruise and torpedoes, where as against a large turret the frig has to go fast AND go in the right direction not to be hit. This is however easily countered with dual webs, so in the end it balances out. It is just as I said intially: Different methods to reach the same result. Within web range, cruise and torpedoes are more sure to damage frigs than turrets. Outside, turrets definately has a better chance to hurt a frig.
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Mowz
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Posted - 2005.12.09 16:08:00 -
[27]
There should be some kind of statute of limitations on how long we can start "new" complaints about changes in eve. OMFG ECMS WERE NERFED 80 GAZILLION YEARS AGO AND WHEN I PULLED MY SCORP OUT OF ITS PACKING FOAM AFTER POST-COMA REACTIVATING MY ACCOUNT IT IS NO LONGER TEH PWNMOBILE.
No one cares about what you thought was balanced half a year ago. Learn the missile skills, figure out what is balanced NOW, and move on. signed, Caldari missile user
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.12.09 16:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mowz There should be some kind of statute of limitations on how long we can start "new" complaints about changes in eve. OMFG ECMS WERE NERFED 80 GAZILLION YEARS AGO AND WHEN I PULLED MY SCORP OUT OF ITS PACKING FOAM AFTER POST-COMA REACTIVATING MY ACCOUNT IT IS NO LONGER TEH PWNMOBILE.
No one cares about what you thought was balanced half a year ago. Learn the missile skills, figure out what is balanced NOW, and move on. signed, Caldari missile user
news flash: in RMR ECM gets nerfed again!
and missiles are NOT NERFED they are: OVER-NERFED
thats a big difrends.
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Hephaesteus
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Posted - 2005.12.09 16:42:00 -
[29]
Train the skills, simple really.
My Raven kicks some serious ass. Cruisers go down in no time using torps, and drones plus t2 med blasters slaughter the tacklers.
Have had no trouble fitting it either loads of grid and cpu. Much easier to fit than a Mega. |
Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.12.09 17:51:00 -
[30]
All that needs to be done is some fall off tweaks. Grey Area also had a proposal where everything that was sitting perfectly still (0.0m/s) would be hit for full missile damage, while anything higher (0.1m/s?) would instantly laugh because of the fall off. This would have helped cure the problems large missiles have been having with things like small POS.
Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with the system itself - I think it's very good at its foundation.
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