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monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.07.23 09:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
This is an idea that i thought up a few days ago and i decided i'd drop it in here so you can all flame me and tell me how out of touch with EVE I am.
anyway here goes:
The basic premiss of this is to add further specalistion into ships via skills that effect individual hull types. (put this here so you don;t even need to bother reading the rest if you don't want, just say i'm terrible and move on).
In my mind this effect an added ship bonus that would give a relatively small boost to a ships power, not something as impactful as % dmg, something more along the lines of % total cap, base speed, sig, agaility etc etc. The idea behind this is that some people heavily specalise in certain ships, and for each current ship there is a skill cap, usually this cap is not massively greater than what would be considered a needed skill level to make good use of the ship. The only real exception to this would be weapon specalisation.
Similarly to weapon specs, the skills would be fairly high ranked so that it would only really appeal to the pilots that primarily fly that Hull whilst at the same time giving them enough of a boost that 1 vs 1 with someone without the skill they should have a slight advantage.
To point out I am aware of the following potential issues: - it would be a significant amount of work considering the number of hulls currently in game - ensuring balance was maintained could be an issue - balancing effectiveness of the bonus agasinst it being worthwhile may prove difficult.
Personally I think this would be a cool addition to the game, where the people that choose to focus on a role within game can allow their ship to perfom better than the average pilot as a mark of their dedication to it. Also it would add so many skills and as such so much total train time it would get people away from the current issues of characters that are maxed in all sub cap skills for example.
Anywho, feel free to pick holes.
Monk.
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Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.07.23 09:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
So in summary more sub cap specialization skills. Sorta like weapon specialization but for other ship attributes.
Im gonna say nah, maybe for navigation skills since they are a little skimpy, but nah man.
Theres already a plethora of fine tuned tweaking skills. Off the top of my head I cant think of anything aside from a sig reducing skill that would really have merit.
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monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.07.23 09:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sort of but not for a specific attribute, that would be based on the hull so that it would maintain relevance.
so for example, a sig reduction bonus would be useful for the condor hull. (would effect condor, raptor, crow) but for something like an abaddon this would be meaningless, so something like total cap would be more useful.
From my point of view i'm 3 years behind the earliest players and have alot of missed sp, I choose not to fly caps on this character and as a result the amount of skills that can effect the ships i fly is dwindling. For those with more SP than me, they are inevitably going to come towards a point where there are no more sub cap skills to train.
It gives those with very high SP a new timesink on skills. and for those who want to excell in a role it would raise the SP cap on the current hulls which i don't think would be a bad thing at all. |
Beckett Firesnake
Babylon Knights Renegades Council
11
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Posted - 2013.07.23 09:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
It is like Tech 2 ships....
Or do you mean: "Omen specialization" : Increase speed, of the Omen by 2% per level. "Stabber specialization": Increase the agility of the Stabber by 2% per level. "Ishtar specialization": Reduce the malus of rigs by 2% per level
It could be dangerous... |
Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.07.23 09:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
^posted a minute before me
OHHH, I get it, I get now
So youre saying something like
Thorax Specialization lv1 Scimitar Specialization lvl2 etc...
That's ACTUALLY not too bad an idea.
**I do have my concerns also |
monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.07.23 09:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beckett Firesnake wrote:It is like Tech 2 ships....
Or do you mean: "Omen specialization" : Increase speed, of the Omen and the Zealot by 2% per level. "Stabber specialization": Increase the agility of the Stabber and the Vagabond by 2% per level.
It could be dangerous...
yeah we're understanding now :)
I agree balance would be a tricky thing for so many new skills + bonus'. as such i think you'd have to look at 1% or 2% bonus'.
My idea is this is not supposed to be just another must have skill. they would be like x10 - x16 to really emphasise that they were for specalisation and something that only someone serious about that ship hull would spend the time on. |
Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.07.23 10:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
For sits and gigs
lets say there were a Cynabal spec skill that increased damage
You would have to do a damage increase % instead of rate of fire % because things could get out of hand
Same thing with Macherial |
monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.07.23 10:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'd suggest stearing well clear of stats such as dmg, tracking, range etc. becasue they apply to much direct power to the ship.
that said the angel ships would be tricky becasue they are both strong and well rounded currently. so to find a stat to plug a gap, aor give extra utility might be more testing.
pirate factions also add the complication of angel and sansha using unique hulls so serp, guiristas, blood would potentially have an unfair advantage, which is an annoyance :p
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Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.07.23 10:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
It would seem a fair middle ground would be to focus on speed or sig bonuses for combat ships and cap/rig requirement bonuses for attack ships
One scenario is the Scorpion You cant really boost its damage or tank abilities because that would make the Rattlesnake a monster. A sig reduction would be ok though since it is a shield boosting platform
As for other ships that use armor a speed bonus would be an good option.
Its definitely a give or take idea that would need a lot of testing to be feasible. I like it though
+1 |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
370
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Posted - 2013.07.23 11:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
monkfish1234 wrote:Hi,
This is an idea that i thought up a few days ago and i decided i'd drop it in here so you can all flame me and tell me how out of touch with EVE I am.
anyway here goes:
The basic premiss of this is to add further specalistion into ships via skills that effect individual hull types. (put this here so you don;t even need to bother reading the rest if you don't want, just say i'm terrible and move on).
I think CCP has long-term plans for adding ship classification skills, one that are orthogonal to the racial skills, so that for instance you can train Attack Cruiser and Combat Cruiser and Attack Frigate. Or whatever formal ship classification system it is that CCP has already started using. Ship "lines" I think they may call them.
Okay, I found a link.
The Merlin is classified as a Combat Frigate, as opposed to an Attack Frigate. This means that, if I am right in my assumption about CCP's long-term plans, that the Merlin will eventually have to skill-bonuses from two different skills. One bonus from the skill Caldari Frigate gives a level-based bonus to some things, and another bonus from a new skill, the non-race specific Combat Ships, gives a level-based bonus to some other things.
Note that Combat Ships is independent of hull size. It boosts all ships classified as Combat category Ships, whether Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship, or anything in between, but of course not capitals. |
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monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.07.23 11:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Salpad wrote:monkfish1234 wrote:Hi,
This is an idea that i thought up a few days ago and i decided i'd drop it in here so you can all flame me and tell me how out of touch with EVE I am.
anyway here goes:
The basic premiss of this is to add further specalistion into ships via skills that effect individual hull types. (put this here so you don;t even need to bother reading the rest if you don't want, just say i'm terrible and move on). I think CCP has long-term plans for adding ship classification skills, one that are orthogonal to the racial skills, so that for instance you can train Attack Cruiser and Combat Cruiser and Attack Frigate. Or whatever formal ship classification system it is that CCP has already started using. Ship "lines" I think they may call them. Okay, I found a link. The Merlin is classified as a Combat Frigate, as opposed to an Attack Frigate. This means that, if I am right in my assumption about CCP's long-term plans, that the Merlin will eventually have to skill-bonuses from two different skills. One bonus from the skill Caldari Frigate gives a level-based bonus to some things, and another bonus from a new skill, the non-race specific Combat Ships, gives a level-based bonus to some other things. Note that Combat Ships is independent of hull size. It boosts all ships classified as Combat category Ships, whether Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship, or anything in between, but of course not capitals.
I truely hope not.
If they go down the path you suggest, it leads to broad ranging skills, which despite being called specalisation essentially become just another must have skill becasue they effect so many ships.
What I'd like to see and my idea promotes, is players maxing what they love to fly, rather than currently the focus just towards maxing everything.
I have no issue with the 'lines' we're using now, i think it gives them a more defined platform for balancing. I just don't think it's the right place to add specalisation really.
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Silivar Karkun
Imperium Aeternam Phantom Armada
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 18:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
came expecting a hull tanking thread, left disappointed :( |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
167
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 23:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Honestly, I like this idea, but I'd rather see it as something akin to the EVE equivalent of post-cap leveling in other MMOs like Rift with Planar Advancement and Everquest with Alternative Advancement. Within that context these would need to be high-ranking skills with bonuses around 1% per level. I would also rather see this as truly hull specific and not hull class specific so that "Condor Specialization" is just for condors and not crows and raptors as well.
Small bonuses, long training times, hull exclusivity, and high costs would, for all intents and purposes, make them skills that are interesting only to people who truly have nothing better to train and are dedicated to flying only a few ships. From my perspective, at least right now, that would be a solid way of making sure that these don't become "must have" skills for EVE at large. |
Grandma Squirel
Squirel Enterprises
37
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Posted - 2013.07.24 04:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
I think it is good that eventually you hit the effective skill point cap on a ship, there is no more advantage to be gained by having trained longer, and it finally boils down to player skill. (If anything, that point takes too long to reach, but will certainly not get shorter) The fact that older players have a major SP advantage over newer players is a fact of life we all accept, but we don't need to go out of our way to magnify that advantage even further. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
272
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 06:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
No. If you want to be more effective use booster drugs and links. Eve is skill > SP. You are trying to make SP make up for a lack of skill. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.07.24 09:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Eve is skill > SP.
Well that's just what you say. I think most of EVE subscribers would say otherwise.
I personally envision that the OP's hull specialization idea can come immediately after training for a certain ship. You could give it a secondary requirement like hull upgrades 5, though, just to bring it in line with t2 equipment hurdles.
With an idea like this you cant really call it a vet vs noob conflict either, since noobs can capitalize on it just as quickly. I would fly the hell out of a lvl 4 spec Tristan any day, even with my pool of sp. I love me some t1 frig roams
In other words, to a noob, hull specialization is just as accessible as it is to a vet. A vet just has better trained skills overall, which is totally compliant with how this game is set up.
The whole 'experience is better than skill point' argument isn't really a legitimate reason to dismiss this idea imo. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1174
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Posted - 2013.07.24 09:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
You want to get all the core support skills up to 4/5 and after that specialization is basically just getting ship type 4/5 and getting t2 weapons. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
8
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Posted - 2013.07.24 16:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:You want to get all the core support skills up to 4/5 and after that specialization is basically just getting ship type 4/5 and getting t2 weapons.
This, right now skills caps per hull and specialisation is almost non exist ant. because you can specialise in something in a pretty short timeframe so it's not really a speciality, just more skills.
also to the comments above the advantaged gained from the specialisation would be deliberately small so that a more skilled pilot would not suddenly be overwhelmed as is the case when you look at something like cruiser 4 vs 5. the power gap is quite large. This all means to operate effectively you MUST be at 5.
The idea is for this to be an optional extra that just gives you that 1% extra that might make the difference in an even fight.
and yeah it would probably make sense for the reqs for the spec skill would be pretty much having the hull + effecting skills maxed. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
37
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Posted - 2013.07.24 16:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
You're just taking the whole concept of skilling into a ship and making it take longer, so no.
-1 |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
860
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Posted - 2013.07.24 16:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
To be honest ccp has this already built this in to the skilling system from the start to some extent, your cruiser 5 effecting your falcon and rook as well as your blackbird. Don't really see any need to extend it, especially considering the mass rebalancing it would require. |
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monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
9
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Posted - 2013.07.24 16:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Doddy wrote:To be honest ccp has this already built this in to the skilling system from the start to some extent, your cruiser 5 effecting your falcon and rook as well as your blackbird. Don't really see any need to extend it, especially considering the mass rebalancing it would require.
The reason i'm saying about extending it is that a lot of people are reaching the ends of the skill chains for a large % of sub cap ships.
ofc we could just add more classes etc, but even that is getting to a point where finding a new role to bring in is difficult. and even then they are largely proving to be useless or OP. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
860
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 16:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
monkfish1234 wrote: From my point of view i'm 3 years behind the earliest players and have alot of missed sp, I choose not to fly caps on this character and as a result the amount of skills that can effect the ships i fly is dwindling. For those with more SP than me, they are inevitably going to come towards a point where there are no more sub cap skills to train.
The whole point of the skilling system in eve is that more experienced can be easily caught by specialising new chars while the older chars get to perfect multiple different ships. What adding more skills to specialise would do is work against anyone new giving higher sp players a clear advantage.
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Doddy
Dark-Rising
860
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
monkfish1234 wrote:Doddy wrote:To be honest ccp has this already built this in to the skilling system from the start to some extent, your cruiser 5 effecting your falcon and rook as well as your blackbird. Don't really see any need to extend it, especially considering the mass rebalancing it would require. The reason i'm saying about extending it is that a lot of people are reaching the ends of the skill chains for a large % of sub cap ships. ofc we could just add more classes etc, but even that is getting to a point where finding a new role to bring in is difficult. and even then they are largely proving to be useless or OP.
It takes an awful long time to max all the subcaps, how much sp you got? I have a pure sub cap alt on 125 mil and he is not even half way. It is nearly 12 years of training even with +5 implants at all times and no non com skills whatsoever.
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Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
17
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Posted - 2013.07.24 20:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
monkfish1234 wrote:Hi,
This is an idea that i thought up a few days ago and i decided i'd drop it in here so you can all flame me and tell me how out of touch with EVE I am.
anyway here goes:
The basic premiss of this is to add further specalistion into ships via skills that effect individual hull types. (put this here so you don;t even need to bother reading the rest if you don't want, just say i'm terrible and move on).
In my mind this effect an added ship bonus that would give a relatively small boost to a ships power, not something as impactful as % dmg, something more along the lines of % total cap, base speed, sig, agaility etc etc. The idea behind this is that some people heavily specalise in certain ships, and for each current ship there is a skill cap, usually this cap is not massively greater than what would be considered a needed skill level to make good use of the ship. The only real exception to this would be weapon specalisation.
Similarly to weapon specs, the skills would be fairly high ranked so that it would only really appeal to the pilots that primarily fly that Hull whilst at the same time giving them enough of a boost that 1 vs 1 with someone without the skill they should have a slight advantage.
To point out I am aware of the following potential issues: - it would be a significant amount of work considering the number of hulls currently in game - ensuring balance was maintained could be an issue - balancing effectiveness of the bonus agasinst it being worthwhile may prove difficult.
Personally I think this would be a cool addition to the game, where the people that choose to focus on a role within game can allow their ship to perfom better than the average pilot as a mark of their dedication to it. Also it would add so many skills and as such so much total train time it would get people away from the current issues of characters that are maxed in all sub cap skills for example.
Anywho, feel free to pick holes.
Monk.
I think this is a great idea, but I think it should be only for one particular race at a time, or perhaps one particular ship class (cruiser) at a time. I prefer the race; I always thought it would be cool if there was something that held people in to a particular race rather than using each just as effectively. |
monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 08:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
You could not do anything like this only to a single race as it effects balance and would therefore leave one race with an unjust advantage until the others caught up. but by class would be possible. |
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