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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
752
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 19:45:00 -
[1381] - Quote
Not immediately HAC stuff but related.
Seems to a continuing issue when we foul players break the balancing work by sheild buffering armer hulls and vice versa and in an effort to make active tanking more viable you have now created several ships with tanks surpassing the dps available in the various classes.
So ..... I suggest a double whammy approach (while catering to my hatred for buffering in general and overbuffering in particular) by scrapping the repper boost from other thread and introducing a rule that says that a ships cannot gain more Hp from a buffer module than what it had prior to fitting it (essentially the same sort of calc that is done for resists) |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1194
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 19:49:00 -
[1382] - Quote
Lucien Cain wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
Sacrilege: The Sacrilege was definitely one of the more difficult ones to pin down, but I think we're in a pretty good place. We looked at a few other options for its layout and bonuses but because of the power of the resist buff it's very easy for it to become too strong. We also really like that it tends to fit in to fleets as a ship with enormous utility rather than being all tank and gank like a lot of the other HACs. For that reason we really wanted to leave the utility high and the 4th mid. It would often make a better straight up brawler with another low, but by going the route we went of adding more drone dps and more fitting room, we improved it a lot as a brawler while preserving its character as a very high-utility HAC that can do a lot of different things.
.
I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsens. By no means does the utility high slot give this ship a stronger position in comparison to the old HAC or other HACs in particular. The drones are pretty much useless since their dmg output without certain boni is negligible. A stronger tank, ergo a 6th low would have been a considerably more useful change, allowing the ship to take a position as a truly heavy brawler. Now all it ends up to be is a slightly above average jack of all trades with NO PARTICULAR STRENGTHS. The ship deserves atleast one advantage over ships of similiar size and class to stand its own in the heat of Combat. Please reconsider your decision again.
i will play devils advocate for a min
a utlity high does mean it can fit a neut which goes with its close range hamm idea. also the drones can also be usefull as you can fit ecm drones or warriors to kill frigs.
now i do agree a 6th low would be great. but i feel that a utility is also usefull. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1194
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 19:52:00 -
[1383] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:What exactly is an ahac eagle? This makes no sense. it must an AB Railgun thing... like it has the sig or speed to pull it off The eagle will still be the poor caldari HAC that everyone laughs at and would't waste 200mil + and the training time to use over a much cheaper and more effective Naga. how far does it shoot with null? could you do something like full rack of nuetron balsters 10mn ab tracking comp em hardner two invul large extender lows: dcu II TE 2 mag stabs rigs: bust accelerator shield expander though i do agree it really needs 25m3 and mb to be usefull So it's like zealots but worse in every way.
i still think a rof bounus instead of the damage bonus would be great and make it really good dps.
but i am at work can you please do a side by side comparison of the two.
advantages could be better tracking and kinetic damage. plus its shield not armor so insta RR on the ship plus should befaster then a ahac version of the zealot because it does not have plates... but then again it has big sig radius which makes it easy to hit. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 19:56:00 -
[1384] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:The other thing I would really like to do is give the Deimos an armor rep bonus. I think it could fit in nicely as a replacement for the MWD cap use bonus as long as the cap recharge is high enough that the kiting fits are handicapped.
The more you remove non-standard bonuses that give some ships a unique flavor compared to their counterparts the harder it will be to convince "you guys" to add them in the future, and I don't necessarily see that as a good thing. Yes, combat ships should be about combat, but changing them so that they have no bonuses other than tank and spank would make EVE a bit duller.
CCP Rise wrote:It also fits really well racially compared to the cap use bonus which is sort of unusual.
The bonus functions as a capacitor amount bonus when HAC level x 5% > MWD capacitor amount penalty. This means that MWDs provide up to a 22% bonus to the deimos' capacitor amount which in addition to making it easier to fit and run said MWDs also allows the ship to run more active modules while making it less vulnerable to capacitor warfare tactics at the same time. If you're considering changing it based solely on thinking of it as a "cap use bonus" I would strongly suggest you reconsider doing so in light of both how it's not a "cap use bonus" per se and that it has wider applications.
I think that it would be nice to see the ship lose its "Diemost" appellation, but I'd rather it didn't lose the MWD bonus in doing so. However if that's the price that's required why not give it a 10% armor HP bonus instead of an overused repair bonus? It just dulls down the game and makes it less shiny when ship bonuses seem to devolve down to having a dozen different bonuses that are picked out by throwing darts at a board.
Tracking Optimal.......Capacitor Use Falloff......Damage.....Rate of Fire Rep.........Resistance.Drone
Aglais wrote:Wait: So the Cerberus' anti-frigate capabilities (unless RLMLs now actually pose a threat to things your own size) threaten to make it too strong, while ignoring HML and Assault missile performance? I'm not sure I'm getting this part here.
Compare rapid launchers with rage ammo to heavy launchers with T1 ammo. You do more damage with better damage application for the cost of missiles going about 12.8% slower. Given that light rage missiles still push 8.4km/s that's not as bad as the percentage might sound.
I believe that that's the concern right there, the part where RLML fits can use standard or precision ammo to take out the primary tackling frigates before swapping to rage to take out everything else and have solid to great damage application on smaller targets even if it doesn't have the maximum damage potential of HML or HAM fits.
Of course I haven't used RLMLs since the third or fourth month I've been playing, and I'm not much for PvP so I could be mistaken there. That's just the most logical reasoning for his statements that I can think of.
FT Diomedes wrote:Active rep bonuses need to go the way of the Dodo. Not sure how giving an active rep bonus to the Deimos makes it any better in real PVP situations.
To a large degree it doesn't, but it does benefit PvP in some "real" situations, and it does benefit PvE as well. IIRC it was in this topic or another that the developer posting stated that they have to balance the ships around PvE as well as PvP. Frankly though I see that as a reason to keep the MWD bonus and not replace it with something like a tanking bonus or a buffer bonus. The MWD bonus favors PvP and PvE fairly equally while tanking bonuses favor PvE and buffer bonuses favor PvP. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1194
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 19:57:00 -
[1385] - Quote
how about this for the eagle
EAGLE
Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty
Caldari Cruiser Bonuses: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range 4% bonus to shield resistances
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turrettracking 7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 4H(-2), 6M(+1), 5L(+1); 4 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 990 PWG(+115), 440 CPU(+2) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1350(-25) / 255s (-80s) / 5.29/s (+1.2) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+36) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+20km) / 252 / 8 Sensor strength: 25 Gravimetric(+7) Signature radius: 120(-30)
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
Lucien Cain
Twilight Phoenix Rising Inc.
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:00:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Sarkelias Anophius wrote:CCP Rise: The Sacri slot layout is still a major problem in my eyes.
I am still of the opinion that removing a launcher, increasing the ROF or Damage bonus to compensate, and shifting a high to a low is the best solution. This will allow reasonable DPS, projected thanks to your changes, while retaining the utility high that makes the Sac such an awesome brawler.
I really think this would work perfectly. Remove a launcher, change damage bonus to 10%, ROF bonus to 7.5%, and we end up with the same base damage; switch a high to the low, resulting in a 5/4/6 slot layout, and BOOM, every single problem with this ship is solved.
This really, really needs to happen. Shameless re-bump. Many agree this is a worthy idea. I hope you're reading this, CCP Rise. We can revive one of the most underpowered and underappreciated HACs in the game, without making it OP in any way, by implementing this redesign alone. Hear the prayer of every Amarr Victor and fix this darn ship.
THIS is still considered to be the best Solution for the Sacrilege and i'm going to push this further up if needs be. This ship deserves a well defined Role. |
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:03:00 -
[1387] - Quote
Give the Muninn and Eagle both a hefty trackign bonus and they might set them apart from the Tornado and Naga |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
939
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:16:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Give all HACs an AB speed bonus and the majority of people will be happy and the ships will be specialized/unique. Putting work in since 2010. |
Hashi Lebwohl
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:20:00 -
[1389] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Sorry I didn't say anything about the Caldari HACs, it's because I think they are probably both in really good shape.
Sales of HAC's in The Forge (March - May)
Zealot 6,013 Vagabond 4,465 Ishtar 4,315 Muninn 2,353 Deimos 1,801 Sacrilege 1,546 Cerberus 1,502 . . Eagle 610
As you can see from popularity of HACs, as shown by their relative sales, the Eagle isn't just the worst HAC it is the worst HAC by a considerable margin. You'd think it was going to get major updates with perhaps a changed or refined purpose:
- Is it a blaster platform based on its resist bonuses with added tracking and falloff bonuses..No apparently not.
- Is it a sniper platform to rival tornados based on its optimal range bonuses with added damage bonuses to improve its alpha..No apparently not.
...No its going to have a mixture; neither glass cannon nor brawler and, of course, RAILS.
Fixing rails will not specifically fix Eagles, may help; but most likely other ships, like Naga's, will be used instead like they are now.
I've posted this here so that I can come back an reference it in December when I can compare these results with the three months to November.
Let's see CCP games design team are up to scratch or if the Eagle post 1.1 is still languishing at the bottom of heap. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
408
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:21:00 -
[1390] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:if you upped the falloff on the vega to 12.5% per level that would fix the "range" issues people are having with the ship.
so that would end up being an extra 62.5% increase to falloff crs 50% that we see now. its not much but it should make the difference.
The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Joker Dronemaster
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:32:00 -
[1391] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Soon or Soon (TM)? Smile As always with Fozzie and I there is only Soon no Soon tm If you feel cheated because of the Ishtar "only having three bonuses" you may want to consider that actually it has 7 Sentry drone optimal Sentry drone tracking Heavy drone mwd speed Heavy drone tracking Drone damage Drone hitpoints Drone control range Counting bonuses is usually not an effective way to evaluate a ship, many of our bonuses are actually combinations of bonuses so it rarely makes sense. As the Dominix has proven, Drone tracking and range bonuses are extremely powerful and the combination of this with the rest of the improvements for HACs makes the Ishtar look very scary.
Im of the opinion you should drop the sentry bonus completely and go with a 10% bonus to drone speed over the 7.5% Id rather have drones that keep up with my ship thats supposed to be about mobility; than have drones I'm going to have to leave behind. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1194
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:39:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if you upped the falloff on the vega to 12.5% per level that would fix the "range" issues people are having with the ship.
so that would end up being an extra 62.5% increase to falloff crs 50% that we see now. its not much but it should make the difference. The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps
ok so how much pg is it short on? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
408
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:45:00 -
[1393] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if you upped the falloff on the vega to 12.5% per level that would fix the "range" issues people are having with the ship.
so that would end up being an extra 62.5% increase to falloff crs 50% that we see now. its not much but it should make the difference. The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps ok so how much pg is it short on?
you have EFT/EVE HQ don't you ? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Tsubutai
Drifting Falling
246
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:50:00 -
[1394] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Vagabond: I'm still fairly confused about how there is so much resistance on this ship design. The complaints range quite a bit but I think the most legitimate one is that the Vaga struggles to project damage compared to its competition (Deimos/Cerberus mostly). I think you have to accept that the Vaga has huge advantages in some other areas that should easily outweigh its slightly lower damage projection. Compared to Cerberus for instance, you have an enormous speed advantage, a utility high, and significantly lower Signature. How valuable you think these things are will vary of course, but you can't expect the Vaga to push damage out as well or it simply becomes better in all cases.
I actually think that all of the advantages you cite for the vagabond are relatively weak, and you're strongly understating the strength of the RLM cerberus as a kiter when you make that comparison, Rise. Point-by-point:
1: The difference in speed and maneuverability between the vaga and the cerberus once you've actually fit them is smaller than it appears based on hull stats alone, since the cerberus can easily fit one or two nanos after fitting BCS, while the vaga needs its remaining lows for TEs and a damage control, so it can't readily fit additional speed mods. When you compare realistic kiting fits for the two ships, the cerberus is around 400 m/s slower while MWDing but has much better agility, which largely offsets the loss of raw speed. In addition, the cerb's superior projection further offsets its lower speed because it can start hurting things from much further away than the vaga can.
2: The utility high really isn't an advantage for the vaga at all, and the fact that it is required on the vaga but not the RLM cerb illustrates one of the latter's great strengths. The vaga needs a medium neut because if it gets scrammed by a frigate, it has no other options for getting away. The cerb can just smash the frigate to pieces with its main weapons, since they use frigate-sized ammo; it has a far more effective built-in frigate defence. The neut isn't a strength of the vaga; rather, the fact that it needs a neut reflects one of its biggest weaknesses.
3: Describing the vaga's damage projection as "slightly" lower than the cerb's is a rather strong understatement: with two damage mods on each (and the vaga having two TEs to boot, assuming it's fitting 220s and has barrage loaded), the cerberus starts outdamaging the vaga at 15 km. At 40 km (the edge of heated, skirmish-linked T2 point range after the 1.1 patch goes live), the cerberus is outdamaging the vaga by a factor of two. Phrases like "crushingly superior" seem more appropriate than "slight" under the circumstances.
4: You can fit an RLM cerberus with a full rack of launchers, a dual LSE/LASB tank, an MWD, two BCs, and two nanos with around 160 PG and 110 CPU to spare. On the vagabond, you don't even get enough grid to fit 220s, an LSE/LASB combo with an MWD, and a medium neut without needing a fitting implant.
Realistically, there's a lot of room for the vaga to be improved as a kiter before it comes close to the general capabilities of the RLM cerb. Something very similar happened with the RLM caracal and stabber in the first T1 cruiser buff: sure, the stabber was quicker than the RLM caracal and had more damage at point blank, but the speed difference became small once you started fitting nanos on the caracal, and the caracal's superior projection, greater array of midslot options, better tackle-killing ability, and much easier fitting made it into a far stronger kiting ship overall. As a result, no one flew the stabber. What you're doing with the vaga here is pretty much exactly what was done to the stabber - you're increasing its strength marginally while simultaneously introducing a massively superior alternative. Giving the vaga enough grid to fit a reasonable tank and 425s wouldn't make it overpowered, it'd just move it to a point where it'd be somewhat competitive with the new kid on the block.
:words: |
Pesadel0
the muppets DARKNESS.
76
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 20:58:00 -
[1395] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Alright, I'm still kind of out of it and I'll probably give another check-in here after the weekend, but here's where I stand for now:
Vagabond: I'm still fairly confused about how there is so much resistance on this ship design. The complaints range quite a bit but I think the most legitimate one is that the Vaga struggles to project damage compared to its competition (Deimos/Cerberus mostly). I think you have to accept that the Vaga has huge advantages in some other areas that should easily outweigh its slightly lower damage projection. Compared to Cerberus for instance, you have an enormous speed advantage, a utility high, and significantly lower Signature. How valuable you think these things are will vary of course, but you can't expect the Vaga to push damage out as well or it simply becomes better in all cases.
Because the new "Bonus" you gave it is terrible and won't really be used. Ships with high speed and low EHP have to have decent applied DPS to make use of said speed, otherwise you get a ship with good disengagement options and not much else.
This, what i think rise doesn't understand is that the vaga isn't in a competion against cerb(better range/mid damage) or the deimos(better damage/close range) ,what we need is the vaga we always wanted a ship that is fast and works in the medium range with so-so damage , what you are giving us is a 4 medium tanker close range ship with so-so damage
Why should we use that when we can use the SFI, hurricane or if you fit it like the old vaga why should we use it in favour of a cynabal?
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1417
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:01:00 -
[1396] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if you upped the falloff on the vega to 12.5% per level that would fix the "range" issues people are having with the ship.
so that would end up being an extra 62.5% increase to falloff crs 50% that we see now. its not much but it should make the difference. The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps ok so how much pg is it short on? you have EFT/EVE HQ don't you ? Vega starts with 855MW of power grid with skills it is 1068.75 425mm autocannon II uses 154MW of power grid with skills 138.6 Vega has 5 turret hard points meaning power grid usage for T2 425mm autocannons is 693. I see plenty of grid left. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
XvXTeacherVxV
Nightmare Machinery Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:01:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Heya Rise,
Would love to hear your thoughts on why there's no Minmatar Missile HAC. It's not an unpopular idea by any means. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
939
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:04:00 -
[1398] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if you upped the falloff on the vega to 12.5% per level that would fix the "range" issues people are having with the ship.
so that would end up being an extra 62.5% increase to falloff crs 50% that we see now. its not much but it should make the difference. The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps ok so how much pg is it short on? you have EFT/EVE HQ don't you ? Vega starts with 855MW of power grid with skills it is 1068.75 425mm autocannon II uses 154MW of power grid with skills 138.6 Vega has 5 turret hard points meaning power grid usage for T2 425mm autocannons is 693. I see plenty of grid left.
yeah, plenty of grid to fit one MWD and nothing else...
Putting work in since 2010. |
XvXTeacherVxV
Nightmare Machinery Illusion of Solitude
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:05:00 -
[1399] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Vagabond: I'm still fairly confused about how there is so much resistance on this ship design. The complaints range quite a bit but I think the most legitimate one is that the Vaga struggles to project damage compared to its competition (Deimos/Cerberus mostly). I think you have to accept that the Vaga has huge advantages in some other areas that should easily outweigh its slightly lower damage projection. Compared to Cerberus for instance, you have an enormous speed advantage, a utility high, and significantly lower Signature. How valuable you think these things are will vary of course, but you can't expect the Vaga to push damage out as well or it simply becomes better in all cases. I actually think that all of the advantages you cite for the vagabond are relatively weak, and you're strongly understating the strength of the RLM cerberus as a kiter when you make that comparison, Rise. Point-by-point: 1: The difference in speed and maneuverability between the vaga and the cerberus once you've actually fit them is smaller than it appears based on hull stats alone, since the cerberus can easily fit one or two nanos after fitting BCS, while the vaga needs its remaining lows for TEs and a damage control, so it can't readily fit additional speed mods. When you compare realistic kiting fits for the two ships, the cerberus is around 400 m/s slower while MWDing but has much better agility, which largely offsets the loss of raw speed. In addition, the cerb's superior projection further offsets its lower speed because it can start hurting things from much further away than the vaga can. 2: The utility high really isn't an advantage for the vaga at all, and the fact that it is required on the vaga but not the RLM cerb illustrates one of the latter's great strengths. The vaga needs a medium neut because if it gets scrammed by a frigate, it has no other options for getting away. The cerb can just smash the frigate to pieces with its main weapons, since they use frigate-sized ammo; it has a far more effective built-in frigate defence. The neut isn't a strength of the vaga; rather, the fact that it needs a neut reflects one of its biggest weaknesses. 3: Describing the vaga's damage projection as "slightly" lower than the cerb's is a rather strong understatement: with two damage mods on each (and the vaga having two TEs to boot, assuming it's fitting 220s and has barrage loaded), the cerberus starts outdamaging the vaga at 15 km. At 40 km (the edge of heated, skirmish-linked T2 point range after the 1.1 patch goes live), the cerberus is outdamaging the vaga by a factor of two. Phrases like "crushingly superior" seem more appropriate than "slight" under the circumstances. 4: You can fit an RLM cerberus with a full rack of launchers, a dual LSE/LASB tank, an MWD, two BCS, and two nanos with around 160 PG and 110 CPU to spare. On the vagabond, you don't even get enough grid to fit 220s, an LSE/LASB combo with an MWD, and a medium neut without needing a fitting implant. Realistically, there's a lot of room for the vaga to be improved as a kiter before it comes close to the general capabilities of the RLM cerb. Something very similar happened with the RLM caracal and stabber in the first T1 cruiser buff: sure, the stabber was quicker than the RLM caracal and had more damage at point blank, but the speed difference became small once you started fitting nanos on the caracal, and the caracal's superior projection, greater array of midslot options, better tackle-killing ability, and much easier fitting made it into a far stronger kiting ship overall. As a result, no one flew the stabber. What you're doing with the vaga here is pretty much exactly what was done to the stabber - you're increasing its strength marginally while simultaneously introducing a massively superior alternative. Giving the vaga enough grid to fit a reasonable tank and 425s wouldn't make it overpowered, it'd just move it to a point where it'd be somewhat competitive with the new kid on the block. :words:
Also, This ^^ |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1195
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:08:00 -
[1400] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if you upped the falloff on the vega to 12.5% per level that would fix the "range" issues people are having with the ship.
so that would end up being an extra 62.5% increase to falloff crs 50% that we see now. its not much but it should make the difference. The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps ok so how much pg is it short on? you have EFT/EVE HQ don't you ?
not at work. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
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Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
408
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:15:00 -
[1401] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:MeBiatch wrote:if you upped the falloff on the vega to 12.5% per level that would fix the "range" issues people are having with the ship.
so that would end up being an extra 62.5% increase to falloff crs 50% that we see now. its not much but it should make the difference. The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps ok so how much pg is it short on? you have EFT/EVE HQ don't you ? Vega starts with 855MW of power grid with skills it is 1068.75 425mm autocannon II uses 154MW of power grid with skills 138.6 Vega has 5 turret hard points meaning power grid usage for T2 425mm autocannons is 693. I see plenty of grid left.
Yes you're missing the other main pg users being a medium neut , 2 LSE 2's and MWD Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling Care Factor
311
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:20:00 -
[1402] - Quote
I still think that the Zealot's cap reduction role should be factored into it's cap replenishment, seems hellaciously anti-amarr that every other weapon system is essentially recieving 2 bonuses from it's cruiser bonus set to their effectiveness in dishing out/apply DPS while the Zealot must continue to limp along like a bastard red-headed stepchild. maybe if it was a reduction to all cap using modules, it might make abit more sense, but deliberately having to give up what every other ship has as a weapon platform bonus for it definately doesn't seem to make much sense. Hell, it's Amarr made, shouldn't they have better insight into cap useage then this? |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1417
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:20:00 -
[1403] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Vega starts with 855MW of power grid with skills it is 1068.75 425mm autocannon II uses 154MW of power grid with skills 138.6 Vega has 5 turret hard points meaning power grid usage for T2 425mm autocannons is 693. I see plenty of grid left.
Yes you're missing the other main pg users being a medium neut , 2 LSE 2's and MWD Wow so you can't fit full tank and full gank on you ships, such a tragedy. Looks like you will need to use fitting mods or just use resist mods rather than extenders. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
408
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:22:00 -
[1404] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Harvey James wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Vega starts with 855MW of power grid with skills it is 1068.75 425mm autocannon II uses 154MW of power grid with skills 138.6 Vega has 5 turret hard points meaning power grid usage for T2 425mm autocannons is 693. I see plenty of grid left.
Yes you're missing the other main pg users being a medium neut , 2 LSE 2's and MWD Wow so you can't fit full tank and full gank on you ships, such a tragedy. Looks like you will need to use fitting mods or just use resist mods rather than extenders.
The point here being is the cynabal can do both.... Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1417
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:27:00 -
[1405] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Harvey James wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Vega starts with 855MW of power grid with skills it is 1068.75 425mm autocannon II uses 154MW of power grid with skills 138.6 Vega has 5 turret hard points meaning power grid usage for T2 425mm autocannons is 693. I see plenty of grid left.
Yes you're missing the other main pg users being a medium neut , 2 LSE 2's and MWD Wow so you can't fit full tank and full gank on you ships, such a tragedy. Looks like you will need to use fitting mods or just use resist mods rather than extenders. The point here being is the cynabal can do both.... Wait so a pirate faction ship out classes a T2 ship much the way a navy ship outclasses a T1 ship, who would have thought. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Thorvik
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
85
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:29:00 -
[1406] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Vagabond: I'm still fairly confused about how there is so much resistance on this ship design. The complaints range quite a bit but I think the most legitimate one is that the Vaga struggles to project damage compared to its competition (Deimos/Cerberus mostly). I think you have to accept that the Vaga has huge advantages in some other areas that should easily outweigh its slightly lower damage projection. Compared to Cerberus for instance, you have an enormous speed advantage, a utility high, and significantly lower Signature. How valuable you think these things are will vary of course, but you can't expect the Vaga to push damage out as well or it simply becomes better in all cases.
Deimos armor: YES! Adding shields and taking away armor was a needless nerf to an already thinly tanked ship. Deimos bonus: I actually *like* the MWD bonus but understand im in the minority heh Vagabond: I'd venture that you're confused about the resistance because you're confused about the ship. The Vagabond is not the Hurricane. It's not a close range shield AC brawler that moonlights as an artillery platform. It's a kiting AC ship, fighting at the edge of point range. It's competition is not the Deimos (close range) or the Cerberus (any range). You're focusing too much on improving the Vaga's performance in a role it's not really suited to do with it's HP, fittings, and weapons layout (dual prop XL ASB fits are more of a novelty than a standard). Going from your proposed shield boost bonus to another fall off bonus will not impact the Vaga's close range brawling capabilities nor give it enough range to remotely compete against the Cerberus. But it WOULD return the Vaga's ability to fight competitively in the 20-25km, which is what soloers and small gangers (the people that use the vaga) are craving. The Vaga shouldnt be the best in all cases, but it should be the best in THAT case. Anything else and the breadth of the "value variance" is from little to nothing.
Well said! (emphasis mine) |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
408
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:36:00 -
[1407] - Quote
Bottom line here Rise is that all your Threads are too conservative in the first round and only slightly less conservative in the second .... but too conservative nonetheless even the CSM/former CSM guys are telling you this .. yet all you say is where afraid.....
Too little gets changed in EVE because of the continuous conservative approach that is prevalent ... shakes head get a sense of adventure plow in there like you did with the geddon.. granted slightly too much on the neut range and let us gauge if you have gone too far. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Thorvik
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
85
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 21:43:00 -
[1408] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:Tsubutai wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Vagabond: I'm still fairly confused about how there is so much resistance on this ship design. The complaints range quite a bit but I think the most legitimate one is that the Vaga struggles to project damage compared to its competition (Deimos/Cerberus mostly). I think you have to accept that the Vaga has huge advantages in some other areas that should easily outweigh its slightly lower damage projection. Compared to Cerberus for instance, you have an enormous speed advantage, a utility high, and significantly lower Signature. How valuable you think these things are will vary of course, but you can't expect the Vaga to push damage out as well or it simply becomes better in all cases. I actually think that all of the advantages you cite for the vagabond are relatively weak, and you're strongly understating the strength of the RLM cerberus as a kiter when you make that comparison, Rise. Point-by-point: 1: The difference in speed and maneuverability between the vaga and the cerberus once you've actually fit them is smaller than it appears based on hull stats alone, since the cerberus can easily fit one or two nanos after fitting BCS, while the vaga needs its remaining lows for TEs and a damage control, so it can't readily fit additional speed mods. When you compare realistic kiting fits for the two ships, the cerberus is around 400 m/s slower while MWDing but has much better agility, which largely offsets the loss of raw speed. In addition, the cerb's superior projection further offsets its lower speed because it can start hurting things from much further away than the vaga can. 2: The utility high really isn't an advantage for the vaga at all, and the fact that it is required on the vaga but not the RLM cerb illustrates one of the latter's great strengths. The vaga needs a medium neut because if it gets scrammed by a frigate, it has no other options for getting away. The cerb can just smash the frigate to pieces with its main weapons, since they use frigate-sized ammo; it has a far more effective built-in frigate defence. The neut isn't a strength of the vaga; rather, the fact that it needs a neut reflects one of its biggest weaknesses. 3: Describing the vaga's damage projection as "slightly" lower than the cerb's is a rather strong understatement: with two damage mods on each (and the vaga having two TEs to boot, assuming it's fitting 220s and has barrage loaded), the cerberus starts outdamaging the vaga at 15 km. At 40 km (the edge of heated, skirmish-linked T2 point range after the 1.1 patch goes live), the cerberus is outdamaging the vaga by a factor of two. Phrases like "crushingly superior" seem more appropriate than "slight" under the circumstances. 4: You can fit an RLM cerberus with a full rack of launchers, a dual LSE/LASB tank, an MWD, two BCS, and two nanos with around 160 PG and 110 CPU to spare. On the vagabond, you don't even get enough grid to fit 220s, an LSE/LASB combo with an MWD, and a medium neut without needing a fitting implant. Realistically, there's a lot of room for the vaga to be improved as a kiter before it comes close to the general capabilities of the RLM cerb. Something very similar happened with the RLM caracal and stabber in the first T1 cruiser buff: sure, the stabber was quicker than the RLM caracal and had more damage at point blank, but the speed difference became small once you started fitting nanos on the caracal, and the caracal's superior projection, greater array of midslot options, better tackle-killing ability, and much easier fitting made it into a far stronger kiting ship overall. As a result, no one flew the stabber. What you're doing with the vaga here is pretty much exactly what was done to the stabber - you're increasing its strength marginally while simultaneously introducing a massively superior alternative. Giving the vaga enough grid to fit a reasonable tank and 425s wouldn't make it overpowered, it'd just move it to a point where it'd be somewhat competitive with the new kid on the block. :words: Also, This ^^
I second this! |
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 22:07:00 -
[1409] - Quote
I agree, bonuses on vaga are fine! just give us more grid! |
Rynnik
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
113
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 22:33:00 -
[1410] - Quote
Thorvik wrote:Alekseyev Karrde wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Vagabond: I'm still fairly confused about how there is so much resistance on this ship design. The complaints range quite a bit but I think the most legitimate one is that the Vaga struggles to project damage compared to its competition (Deimos/Cerberus mostly). I think you have to accept that the Vaga has huge advantages in some other areas that should easily outweigh its slightly lower damage projection. Compared to Cerberus for instance, you have an enormous speed advantage, a utility high, and significantly lower Signature. How valuable you think these things are will vary of course, but you can't expect the Vaga to push damage out as well or it simply becomes better in all cases.
Deimos armor: YES! Adding shields and taking away armor was a needless nerf to an already thinly tanked ship. Deimos bonus: I actually *like* the MWD bonus but understand im in the minority heh Vagabond: I'd venture that you're confused about the resistance because you're confused about the ship. The Vagabond is not the Hurricane. It's not a close range shield AC brawler that moonlights as an artillery platform. It's a kiting AC ship, fighting at the edge of point range. It's competition is not the Deimos (close range) or the Cerberus (any range). You're focusing too much on improving the Vaga's performance in a role it's not really suited to do with it's HP, fittings, and weapons layout (dual prop XL ASB fits are more of a novelty than a standard). Going from your proposed shield boost bonus to another fall off bonus will not impact the Vaga's close range brawling capabilities nor give it enough range to remotely compete against the Cerberus. But it WOULD return the Vaga's ability to fight competitively in the 20-25km, which is what soloers and small gangers (the people that use the vaga) are craving. The Vaga shouldnt be the best in all cases, but it should be the best in THAT case. Anything else and the breadth of the "value variance" is from little to nothing. Well said! (emphasis mine) Quoting all but mostly responding to what Alek says.
The Vaga can't be the 'best' in mid range at damage projection and killing stuff. Why do people keep forgetting or ignoring that that hull is undisputedly the best at disengaging from mid-range fights and thus having a major strength in non-tank survivability and the picking and choosing of engagements. That is huge. If the Vaga keeps that AND also has the best mid-range damage/projection then no one will ever fly another hull in that category ever - people naturally don't like losing ships.
So you get your risk adverse, frigate speed, destroyer sized fun-mobile. You just have to balance that with reasonable DPS and projection trade-offs.
The Cynabal is going to be sorted. CCP Rise already stated that. It isn't a reason for the Vaga to be buffed beyond this proposal and if that means everyone only flies Cynabals instead of Vagas because of that, I don't see the problem. It would probably hasten the balance priority on that hull. |
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