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metalravenous
S0utherN Comfort Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2013.08.10 04:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been part of a number of alliances in my Eve lifetime. In all cases when things went into the failscade nose dive there was no recovery and the alliance died. I am wondering for anyone who has experienced the opposite. How did your alliance pull out of its tailspin? What were the signs of recovery? How long did the rebuilding period take? Etc etc...pls post relevant stories hete |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1939
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Posted - 2013.08.10 05:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sorry but the smart people in TEST started being worried well over a year ago when leadership decided to backstab old friends and cuddle up to old enemies. Then you morons started calling them toxic. TEST has both a leadership problem, and a cultural problem. I don't think there will be a recovery unless there are drastic changes. |
metalravenous
S0utherN Comfort Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2013.08.10 05:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
The question is less about state of test and more to learn from other ppls experiences. |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
516
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Posted - 2013.08.10 06:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
No this is about the state of TEST because alliance longevity is not about some kind of destiny-bound God ordained magic cycles, it's about mistakes being made, laziness, stagnation, and lack of forethought.
That said, Delve is also Cursed. |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1945
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Posted - 2013.08.10 06:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
metalravenous wrote:The question is less about state of test and more to learn from other ppls experiences.
It goes back to your situation perfectly. Make solid friends and fire the current leadership. |
Max50
Parental Control
31
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Posted - 2013.08.10 08:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
metalravenous wrote:The question is less about state of test and more to learn from other ppls experiences.
The problem is when an alliance is missing the original goal it had as an entity. This happens usually when carebears with excel docs are calling the shots and blue lists extend to more than half of EVE.
You lost a war against a coalition. Typical in EVE. Carebears will leave, its what always happens. |
WarFireV
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
109
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Posted - 2013.08.10 13:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Generally the Alliances that make it, go lean and mean. Sheds all the people only there for isk, causal PvP, or AFK from the game. After that it is just about leadership being drama free and realizing what they have to do. |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
I have no idea whether TEST will bounce back in the long term but all of the alliances that made it have had time in the doldrums. PL got booted out of Fountain, Goons fat-fingered their sov and has had CEOs that stole all the isk.
What will keep TEST together is people liking to play Eve in the alliance, hopefully some of us will continue to do so. I still think it's a somewhat pyrrhic victory for the CFC because the price of winning has been to clearly underline the pet status of the non-Goon members with bullying PAP stats and threats of punishment for under-performance. Maybe tyhat will come back to bite you one day.
As for shedding people (Mr left -A- when it got tough), it's never good to shed people wholesale. Especially because of losing. However there's always new people coming in if the bus gets turned around. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4130
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Posted - 2013.08.10 17:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:The remaining mass of "for fun" leeches If you like having fun in eve you should probably follow the advice of numerous experts like Baki "STOP BEING POOR" Yuku and also Gevlon "Leeches" Goblin, and get rich and go elsewhere.
Do you have any roles or stuff like that? Apparently for Pizza, awoxing guarantees citizenship. Sound like fun? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Charles Case
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
644
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Posted - 2013.08.10 18:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ahh nice, we're in the coming to terms, self-analyzing phase. Complete collapse is around the corner.
Callduron, you need to get everything within your reach and bail. You can just go suck in another pub alliance amigo. |
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KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
502
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Posted - 2013.08.10 18:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
You can bounce back if your alliance has something unique to offer its members that no other alliance can provide, even while in defeat.
Look at SOLAR for example, their members dont really have alot of other places to go, so they stay wether they have sov or not. |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
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Posted - 2013.08.10 21:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Well I'm sticking with Test for now. Can't say it's dull
I'm still FCing fleets and actually put in for promotion yesterday so hopefully I'll get to cross swords with you chaps again. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4133
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Posted - 2013.08.10 21:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Callduron wrote:Well I'm sticking with Test for now. Can't say it's dull I'm still FCing fleets and actually put in for promotion yesterday so hopefully I'll get to cross swords with you chaps again. Ah good. Get some rank and you, too, can join TEST leadership in Sniggerdly, a member of Pandemic Legion. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
384
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Posted - 2013.08.10 22:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
To answer the OP, several alliances has survived the total or semi-total loss of SOV (In various forms). Red Alliance, XIX, SOLAR, -A- all have had setbacks and have come back later, some to be knocked down again. Nulli Secunda was thought to failcascade after losing SOV in Delve and go to grind up ISK in FW, and Raiden was said to be dead after losing Tenal. RAZOR was part of the old northern coalition and lost the war against DRF, but rebounced. CVA has lost Providence once or twice (Can't remember) before and yet still exists. IRC and ED both survived several setbacks in the drone regions, ED reforming when an opportunity arose (And subsequenty got knocked down) and IRC still trying to get back on their feet AFAIK.
More famous examples, like KenZuko being BoB under a different name, or IT that consisted of many former BoB-aligned corps/alliances, and GoonSwarm -> solodrakeban-something -> Goonswarm Federation are also some that you could look to as examples of primarily or entirely SOV alliances that in some way survived losses.
Is there any unifying trend to all these examples? I actually don't think so.
Several of the Russian alliances are said to survive because "Russian winter/endurance" or "they have nowhere else to go", non-Russians were sometimes knocked out in a war but had friends with couches, and some again were said to be not as much the name, but the state of mind.
My personal experience (As a line member) with S2N was a number of things, such as feeling that we'd actually held out mostly on our own for far longer than expected, some good measure of stubbornness, and also a leadership that very much showed the way. Some of them had been through the IT collapse, some were just great dudes and some were very serious about being good at having fun (Where fun = PvP). I think the leadership in S2N made an enormous difference, but the way of the exit also mattered a lot.
The Mittani wrote two columns with his opinions and observations, if you want to check them out check: http://themittani.com/content/20-inside-failure-cascade http://themittani.com/content/21-surviving-failure-cascade
A last tip: If your alliance leaves for NPC 0.0 (Syndicate ESPECIALLY) to "trim the fat", the failure cascade is over, it has happened and the ship sunk 4 wars ago. |
Leonidas Webb
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
3
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Posted - 2013.08.10 23:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Here are a few tips for TEST to aid in thier recovery.
1). Most importantly you must have goals. Not the "we shall rule the universe and get revenge on those that did this to us" sort, but honest, realistic, achievable goals for short, intermediate, and long term.
2). You need trustworthy, accountable leadership willing to do what is necessary to achieve those goals.
3). "Trim the fat" - in essence, first boot anyone that is severely inactive, then boot anyone whose agenda is not in line with the completion of your goals.
4). Learn who your friends are and treat them with gratitude and respect.
5). Learn and grow from every encounter as both victory and defeat are useful and informative and an excellent resource for strengthening your alliance if viewed objectively.
I could keep going but that should be more than enough to point you in the right direction. |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
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Posted - 2013.08.11 01:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Callduron wrote:Well I'm sticking with Test for now. Can't say it's dull I'm still FCing fleets and actually put in for promotion yesterday so hopefully I'll get to cross swords with you chaps again. Ah good. Get some rank and you, too, can join TEST leadership in Sniggerdly, a member of Pandemic Legion.
Doesn't seem like my cup of tea. Really like fighting them though, hope we get more chances to shoot PL. My first fleet with Test was against Sniggwaffe. (Not quite the same I know but they got some PL help once they started losing ships). CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
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Posted - 2013.08.11 01:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Leonidas Webb wrote:Here are a few tips for TEST to aid in thier recovery.
1). Most importantly you must have goals. Not the "we shall rule the universe and get revenge on those that did this to us" sort, but honest, realistic, achievable goals for short, intermediate, and long term.
2). You need trustworthy, accountable leadership willing to do what is necessary to achieve those goals.
3). "Trim the fat" - in essence, first boot anyone that is severely inactive, then boot anyone whose agenda is not in line with the completion of your goals.
4). Learn who your friends are and treat them with gratitude and respect.
5). Learn and grow from every encounter as both victory and defeat are useful and informative and an excellent resource for strengthening your alliance if viewed objectively.
I could keep going but that should be more than enough to point you in the right direction.
Really interesting to see other people's perspectives but I don't think we can quite follow all your advice.
1) Yup, immediate goals seem to be iskbuilding and pvp/FC development.
2) We really like Boodabooda at the grunt level. Even people who have left because of leadership have said they like Boodabooda but not the others. Feels like we're turning the management thing around.
3) Inactives maybe but we're unlikely to boot people ever for not toeing the party line. At the heart of Test is the Reddit community and the feeling that if you're active on Reddit you're in. We cater to all types of players from the very casual to the very hardcore.
4) Blue everyone you mean? We've had two coalitions and both times we got fed up. I do think our leaders should have a healthy dialogue with the movers and shakers of nullsec but personally I'd like it if no one in null felt completely safe from us.
5) we have a ton of work to do on learning from our gameplay experiences. I don't even think we're that good yet at learning how to learn - we could do in the FC team with being more of a cadre, so we can discuss FCing issues, so we can learn from our colleagues mistakes as well as our own. I think it's slowly coming but moving a large organisation is a gradual process.
I'll get mocked for this but in some ways that's why it's good to be freed from the responsibilities of sov. It's hard to figure out very complicated difficult multi-department tasks like super fishing when mired in day-to-day. I'm hoping we'll be able to raise our game during our spell in the wilderness.
I do think there's a lot of Eve who doesn't want to see us wither and die partly because our recklessness makes nullsec a more kill-rich environment and partly because we do a tremendous amount to bring people into this hobby. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Leonidas Webb
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
3
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Posted - 2013.08.11 07:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
To clarify in answer to your response.
Booda may be the most wonderful and likable person in all of eve or from any and all TEST members perspective, however this does not make them a good or poor leader. Proper and appropriate leadership decisions are what make that distinction. In the corporate world, leadership/ management are not there to be the average member/employees friend, they are there to make high level decisions that affect the corporation, the achievement of goals, implementation of policies, etc.
If the corporate situation has gone from bad to worse under thier leadership, then regardless of "fault" it is, ultimately the fault if leadership/ management.
Next, differences of opinion are acceptable within the membership structure, it allows room for debate, options, and allows the leadership to see both the popularity and effectiveness of command level decisions from the grunt level perspective. So I do not mean kick anyone that doesn't agree with command decisions, I mean kick anyone that does not support the goals and direction of the corporation/ alliance once that decision is made. If viewed objectively, these types of people should be easily recognizable, and should be removed because they both undermine morale and constantly question leadership authority, which further undermines morale as well as undermines belief in the ability of the leadership to do what is in the best interest of the corporation.
In short, you cannot and will not follow a leaders decisions if you have no belief in that leaders ability due to constant vocal opposition to each and every command decision purely for the reason of wanting to play " devils advocate ".
Blue everyone? Of course not, what I mean is that when you find a friendly corporation or alliance, defined as one that works with you and alongside you for the benefit of both, then hold onto them as that is a valuable asset. When two entities are together for any length of time there will be differences of opinion, but these are not insurmountable. The trick is, you cannot allow jealousy, hurt feelings, or animosity over those differences of opinion to sour the relationship as Montolio did with the TEST/CFC relationship. Nor can you allow the relationship to become predatory in nature so that one entity is "helping" the other solely for thier own benefit or to poach active stable members, such as how the vast majority view the recent TEST/PL relationship.
Running a corp/clan/guild in RL or in a game is a hard and oftentimes thankless task, especially so in a game where the vast majority of the feedback you get is negative, so props to those that step up to the task regardless of success or failure.
That being said,
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Leonidas Webb
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
3
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Posted - 2013.08.11 07:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
That being said, just because someone is willing to take the responsibility, or simply because no one else wants the job, does not mean that person is capable or well suited for the position.
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
253
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Posted - 2013.08.11 08:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Test needed this dramatic loss. Until now they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter by either Goons or PL. As long as the leadership is healthy it might not be a total cascade, having to strike out on their own and carve out space unassisted by an all powerful existing entity is the best thing for them.
You rarely understand the true value of something unless you've had to work for it. Test will now need to put effort in. Best thing is to cut out the dead wood, dissenters, mongoloids and those looking for a free ride. Oh and ask PL nicely to stop poaching all tests best supercap owning members. |
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Callduron
Corporate Scum Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
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Posted - 2013.08.11 08:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Leonidas Webb wrote:TIn the corporate world, leadership/ management are not there to be the average member/employees friend,
Gosh that sounds horrible. Thank goodness I'm not playing this game in a metrics-driven organisation run by lawyers and accountants. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
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Posted - 2013.08.11 08:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Oh and ask PL nicely to stop poaching all tests best supercap owning members.
I honestly don't think they poach or have to poach.
It's just the comparison, when our managers are put under pressure it seems like historically TEST has become a place of blaming rivalry and failing to appreciate them. They look at the chilled out guys laughing and joking and drift there when TEST overloads them to burnout. It's not really fair to give volunteer staff a 24 hour a day 365 day a year job then yell at them when stuff doesn't happen fast enough.
It's probably the most important thing for Boodabooda to fix. For most people in TEST it's a really good alliance to be in, we need to make sure this is true at the top. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8571
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Posted - 2013.08.11 11:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Remember when Booda leaked some advice Mittens gave him? Yeah, he should have probably followed that advice instead of simultaneously disregarding it, mocking it and burning the last diplomatic bridge to an alliance with a "best possible friends, worst possible enemies" policy. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Roderick Grey
Broski North Black Legion.
455
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Posted - 2013.08.11 12:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
TEST needs to go back to being a small scale newbie alliance instead of trying to be anything half-decent. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
504
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Posted - 2013.08.11 15:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
Andski wrote:Remember when Booda leaked some advice Mittens gave him? Yeah, he should have probably followed that advice instead of simultaneously disregarding it, mocking it and burning the last diplomatic bridge to an alliance with a "best possible friends, worst possible enemies" policy.
You cannot seriously mean that you want to blue up another huge alliance again? |
Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
288
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Posted - 2013.08.11 17:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
KuroVolt wrote:Andski wrote:Remember when Booda leaked some advice Mittens gave him? Yeah, he should have probably followed that advice instead of simultaneously disregarding it, mocking it and burning the last diplomatic bridge to an alliance with a "best possible friends, worst possible enemies" policy. You cannot seriously mean that you want to blue up another huge alliance again?
It is possible to fight with an alliance and still have good diplomatic relations with them. As long as both sides clearly understand the situation and you don't turn every bridge into a bonfire. I would even say that being able to fight one day and work together another day is a sign of good diplomacy and mutual respect. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8571
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Posted - 2013.08.11 17:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
KuroVolt wrote:Andski wrote:Remember when Booda leaked some advice Mittens gave him? Yeah, he should have probably followed that advice instead of simultaneously disregarding it, mocking it and burning the last diplomatic bridge to an alliance with a "best possible friends, worst possible enemies" policy. You cannot seriously mean that you want to blue up another huge alliance again?
TEST has a huge problem with toxic elements driving management right into burnout. Mittens suggested that Booda deal with these toxic elements by restricting their forum access with a "gulag" permission. This worked for Goonswarm in 2010 when goons who no longer played the game were shaming everyone else who did, and after a few of them were gulaged, it stopped.
Booda wasn't happy because apparently being offered a solution to a major problem within your alliance is insulting! So, of course, he proceeded to paraphrase (and misquote) Mittens in a broadcast to all and then dump the full logs in a public section of their forums. You don't leak logs if you expect to maintain diplomatic relations (not standings, but communication)
It had nothing to do with blue standings. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Berke Negri
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
120
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Posted - 2013.08.11 19:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Callduron wrote:knobber Jobbler wrote:Oh and ask PL nicely to stop poaching all tests best supercap owning members. I honestly don't think they poach or have to poach. well i guess if you lie to yourself that would be true |
Charles Case
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
644
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Posted - 2013.08.11 21:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Callduron wrote:I'm still FCing fleets and actually put in for promotion yesterday so hopefully I'll get to cross swords with you chaps again.
Sorry dude, i dont go into lo-sec. |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
506
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Posted - 2013.08.11 21:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Andski wrote:KuroVolt wrote:Andski wrote:Remember when Booda leaked some advice Mittens gave him? Yeah, he should have probably followed that advice instead of simultaneously disregarding it, mocking it and burning the last diplomatic bridge to an alliance with a "best possible friends, worst possible enemies" policy. You cannot seriously mean that you want to blue up another huge alliance again? TEST has a huge problem with toxic elements driving management right into burnout. Mittens suggested that Booda deal with these toxic elements by restricting their forum access with a "gulag" permission. This worked for Goonswarm in 2010 when goons who no longer played the game were shaming everyone else who did, and after a few of them were gulaged, it stopped. Booda wasn't happy because apparently being offered a solution to a major problem within your alliance is insulting! So, of course, he proceeded to paraphrase (and misquote) Mittens in a broadcast to all and then dump the full logs in a public section of their forums. You don't leak logs if you expect to maintain diplomatic relations (not standings, but communication) It had nothing to do with blue standings.
Ah, thanks for clarifying. Nevermind my last post then. |
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