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Q 5
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2013.08.18 19:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
as the popularity of Bitcoin grows a nice question remains, is trading in game items for bitcoins legally considered RMT since bitcoin is nothing more than 1's and 0's and as of yet not considered real currency can it be prosecuted?
my understanding is that Bitcoin is completely anonymous with the transactions so there may not be records whereas in the old system your transactions were trackable.
it will be very very difficult for CCP to prove RMT if bitcoin is used cause players can trade and give items away all day but if there's no records then RMT can only be suspected.
here's a nice article its in German but you can get it translated with google translate oh and it seems that the German government is now recognizing Bitcoin as a currency.
http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/bitcoin100.html
Oh them Goonswarm leaders and their bitcoin!
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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
30964
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Posted - 2013.08.18 19:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
As I understand it trading a crate of Beer to my flatmate for a can of Ore would be considered RMT.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ Unban Saede! |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
36494
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Posted - 2013.08.18 19:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
The answer for you is in the very name: REAL Money.
Bitcoin is not real money. |
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
30986
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Posted - 2013.08.18 19:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:The answer for you is in the very name: REAL Money.
Bitcoin is not real money. Its backed by nothing but its scarecity and that it rewards people for mining it. Pity the currency isn't inflationary and backed by a number of FLOPS on a distributed network, that would be worth something to someone.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ Unban Saede! |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12115
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Posted - 2013.08.18 20:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Germany aren't alone in saying it's real money, it's considered cash in the US as well. Personally I'd play it safe, they kind of cover virtual currency in the EULA anyway.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1618
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Posted - 2013.08.18 20:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Q 5 wrote:as the popularity of Bitcoin grows a nice question remains, is trading in game items for bitcoins legally considered RMT since bitcoin is nothing more than 1's and 0's and as of yet not considered real currency can it be prosecuted? my understanding is that Bitcoin is completely anonymous with the transactions so there may not be records whereas in the old system your transactions were trackable. it will be very very difficult for CCP to prove RMT if bitcoin is used cause players can trade and give items away all day but if there's no records then RMT can only be suspected. here's a nice article its in German but you can get it translated with google translate oh and it seems that the German government is now recognizing Bitcoin as a currency. http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/bitcoin100.htmlOh them Goonswarm leaders and their bitcoin!
The EULA clearly states that you can't transfer, sell nor auction game content of any kind.
EVE's EULA wrote:B. Selling Items and Objects
You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
Q 5
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2013.08.18 20:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then? Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no? |
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
31006
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Posted - 2013.08.18 22:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Q 5 wrote:I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then? Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?
So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong? Whats your opinion on a series of 1's and 0's that compile into video? Or even highly illegal and immoral video that the censor will rightly remove that we both know I am leading it toward.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ Unban Saede! |
Q 5
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2013.08.18 22:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
RMT is encouraged by all the nerfs CCP has been doing, sure gets the isk devalued but also makes things cost cheap, but then there's that annoying they (CCP) loses revenue because of people not buying plex.
In the end it's a balancing act, but nerfing sht isn't an answer. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1787
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Posted - 2013.08.19 00:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Q 5 wrote:RMT is encouraged by all the nerfs CCP has been doing Seriously? With ISK getting easier and easier to obtain on average nearly constantly, you complain about nerfs to the most egregiously offending activities?
Q 5 wrote:I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then? Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no? So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong? I don't say this often, but this time, it's way overdue: dude, you sound like an ill-informed fool, so I hope for your sake you're either being intentionally dense or actually not aware of previous official clarifications from CCP.
The one and only directive as far as CCP is concerned is to NOT allow people to "earn a living" (or supplement their living standards) as a cling-on leech to the game of EVE, sucking away enjoyment from other players. If you manage to do it in some way that doesn't make the game experience worse for any others but instead better for everybody, good for you, you're probably allowed to do it, but better check first just in case. So, for instance, if you provide some out-of-game game-related services which enhance the gameplay experience, you are not disallowed to earn some cash for it in certain circumstances, usually through web adds on your site, but sometimes also direct cash purchases. You would also be allowed to charge in-game ISK for it if you wish. And that's what's certainly allowed.
You are NOT allowed to obtain any out-of-this-game material or financial benefit as a result of an exchange of in-game goods of any kind. And that also covers bitcoin, any other real-life virtual currency or currency equivalents, and it even covers virtual goods or currencies from other games that do not belong to CCP. So, for instance, you would not be allowed to trade EVE ISK for WoW gold, even if Blizzard would start allowing it.
Exchange of in-EVE "services" for out-of-EVE benefits is still in a grey area. So, for instance, I'm sure that if you're some obsessed guy who wants to hire a bunch of RL people to join his alliance and fight for him, that is still borderline arguably not-yet-punishable. If enough people would start doing it, eventually CCP will come down on it and will also specifically disallow it.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T Build your own EVE PC http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1559734 |
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Jayem See
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
1025
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Posted - 2013.08.19 02:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Akita T wrote:Q 5 wrote:RMT is encouraged by all the nerfs CCP has been doing Seriously? With ISK getting easier and easier to obtain on average nearly constantly, you complain about nerfs to the most egregiously offending activities? Q 5 wrote:I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then? Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no? So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong? I don't say this often, but this time, it's way overdue: dude, you sound like an ill-informed fool, so I hope for your sake you're either being intentionally dense or actually not aware of previous official clarifications from CCP. The one and only directive as far as CCP is concerned is to NOT allow people to "earn a living" (or supplement their living standards) as a cling-on leech to the game of EVE, sucking away enjoyment from other players. And before you ask, selling stuff for cash (or bitcoins, or beer) does do that, even if for some revenue streams it's not exactly obvious how. If you manage to do it in some way that doesn't make the game experience worse for any others but instead better for everybody, good for you, you're probably allowed to do it, but better check first just in case. So, for instance, if you provide some out-of-game game-related services which enhance the gameplay experience, you are not disallowed to earn some cash for it in certain circumstances, usually through web adds on your site, but sometimes also direct cash purchases. You would also be allowed to charge in-game ISK for it if you wish. And that's what's certainly allowed. You are NOT allowed to obtain any out-of-this-game material or financial benefit as a result of an exchange of in-game goods of any kind. And that also covers bitcoin, any other real-life virtual currency or currency equivalents, and it even covers virtual goods or currencies from other games that do not belong to CCP. So, for instance, you would not be allowed to trade EVE ISK for WoW gold, even if Blizzard would start allowing it. Exchange of in-EVE "services" for out-of-EVE benefits is still in a grey area. So, for instance, I'm sure that if you're some obsessed guy who wants to hire a bunch of RL people to join his alliance and fight for him, that is still borderline arguably not-yet-punishable. If enough people would start doing it, eventually CCP will come down on it and will also specifically disallow it.
**COUGH**
Bitchslap Aaaaaaand relax. |
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille Gallente Federation
124
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Posted - 2013.08.19 04:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
I read a Forbes magazine (online) article about it. My understanding is that it has cash value. You can actually buy stuff with it at many online retailers, and some brick and mortar places are accepting it as payment as well - although how the transaction was processed was unclear to me. According to the Forbes article, it can be exchanged for physical, traditional currency, but the exchange rate fluctuates widely.
The article insinuated that it is becoming the favorite currency of criminal transactions, because it is untraceable. Arms dealers, narcotics traffickers, money launderers, all seem to have found an affinity for the bitcoin virtual cash - because it CAN be exchanged for physical cash. Watch this space.-á New exciting signature in development. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1789
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Posted - 2013.08.19 11:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Inokuma Yawara wrote:how the transaction was processed was unclear to me http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/05/09/25-things-i-learned-about-bitcoin-from-living-on-it-for-a-week/
Quote:12. In-person Bitcoin purchases rely heavily on QR codes. IGÇÖve never seen so many people actually using QR codes. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.schildbach.wallet&hl=en
Quote:With this app you always have your Bitcoins with you, in your pocket! You can send payments simply by scanning a QR-code or by touching two phones together (NFC). Bitcoin Wallet is designed to be easy to use and reliable, while also being secure and fast. Same for iPhones or other mobile devices.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T Build your own EVE PC http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1559734 |
Whitehound
1868
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Posted - 2013.08.19 15:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Create a petition and ask! There is a forum rule, which prohibits such discussions. Do not get yourself into trouble over this.
21. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.
Posts discussing, linking to, or advertising RMT, including but not limited to the sale of in game items, assets, currency, characters or game accounts for real life money are strictly prohibited. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC The Last Chancers.
712
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Posted - 2013.08.19 20:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Here's a quick heuristic: If you find yourself playing Internet Legal Expert, parsing terms and weaseling apparent loopholes out of simple, clear language, then you're wrong and your effort is not going to end well. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
858
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Posted - 2013.08.19 22:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
I just want to point out that most RL currency, if transferred via the internet, is also just 1's and 0's.... just saying
But yes, Akita covered pretty much the way I view it. |
Mac Munoz
Only One Corp
1
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Posted - 2013.08.20 17:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Q 5 wrote:I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then? Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?
So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong?
I think the biggest difference in the example quoted is you are giving intel in exchange for ISK. You aren't asking for cash. If you asked for cash that would be against the EULA.
Now if you took the ISK you made from selling intel and then converted it to cash that is a clear violation. I am not sure how this is confusing.
Bitcoins are acquired only through work from an outside party. You either performed the work yourself or you paid for the work someone else did. Either way paying for an item with a currency that isn't native to the game is clear violation.
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Q 5
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2013.08.21 02:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Humm, well haven't been playing eve lately because I'm busy trying to mine bitcoin and FINALLY I got 1, bit long but atleast I can use it in the real world unlike the veld I would mine, horray for bitcoin...now I will go see what I can trade it for in RL. |
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille Gallente Federation
133
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Posted - 2013.08.22 06:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Q 5 wrote:Humm, well haven't been playing eve lately because I'm busy trying to mine bitcoin and FINALLY I got 1, bit long but atleast I can use it in the real world unlike the veld I would mine, horray for bitcoin...now I will go see what I can trade it for in RL.
Can prob'ly get a used AK, and a box or two of ammo for it. Prob'ly been used in some conflict somewhere's, so expect rust, carbon, and other crap to be wrong with it. Or maybe get a satchel of C4. Hey! Don't worry, bitcoin is untraceable.
*Sits back and waits for the news story of an EVE Online player that went to prison for buying a grenade with a bitcoin on Ebay.* Watch this space.-á New exciting signature in development. |
Q 5
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2013.08.22 12:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Well, that won't be happening cause,
1. I already own guns through legal means.
2. There are soooo many places you can spend BC in.
3. I miss read my application, it was a fraction of the bitcoin not a whole. |
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Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
64
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Posted - 2013.08.29 03:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP cannot and never will be able to divine how you have payed for in-game items out of game. Whether it be dollars, euros, dinars, marks, yen or bit coin. Lawn cutting, cases of beer, handy work or whatever. The reason people get ISK taken away from them when they buy ISK from websites is because those sites deal with so many people from all over the game that it is easy for CCP to track the ISK on their side and see who is acting like an RMT bank.
How large alliances would get away with RMT is because as a group you are already attached to the ISK that the alliance has through the social order that you belong. Now if those alliances started selling outside their group to wide swathes of the playerbase then just like all other RMT operations they would be shut down and the ISK taken away. Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought. |
Angelique Duchemin
Alexylva Paradox
608
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Posted - 2013.08.29 03:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Q 5 wrote:I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then? Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?
So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong?
Of course it's not illegal. The EULA is not about limiting what you can do but about enabling CCP to take action.
Through the EULA you give CCP permission to terminate your account at will. Breaking their rules won't get your hauled off to prison but likewise you can't take legal action against them when they ban you.
We miss you Saede. In-depth guide on how to safely mine in High Sec |
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