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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
176
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Posted - 2013.08.19 05:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am talking about statements such as this:
CCP Rise wrote:
My position on the Vagabond remains relatively unchanged. Its the second most popular HAC after Zealot currently [...].
Popularity has little to nothing to do with a weapon systems or ships actual balancing problems. If a weapon type or a ship get used a lot then that does not in any form mean its op or even good.
People use ships they are familar with (cane is quite bad now, yet it still is the 6th most used ship) or weapon systems they are used to ( hmls still see some use yet they are utterly terrible in reality and as all medium long ranged weapon system could use a healthy buff, yet as the only one dont get changed in 1.1).
You could also argue that light blaster and railguns are better then small lalsers since they see more use (and that rockets are horrible since they see little use in coparison) but we all know that that isnt the case.
Most used ship atm is a talwar yet it by no means is the best destroyer, nor is it in any way op.
What im getting it is that the popularity in itself should not be used as a tool to balance. If you for example were to notice a hypothetical weapon system that is vastly under powered yet that is by far the most used ones of all systems you should not go, its fine it gets used a lot, it would still need a rebalance. Polpularitiy is no true measure of the state of balance.
Stop treating it as such. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
102
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Posted - 2013.08.19 05:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
feature or idea? if not, there is a HAC thread for it.
on a side note the other hacs did lack something in comparison to how well the vagabond and zealot did in there specialties. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
44
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Posted - 2013.08.19 06:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vagabond is so popular because its unique, lets Face it, the Main Problem is Most ships are just dull and average because they cant do anything special.
Look into the Command Ship Thead they all the same, same Bonuses, same Slots, same EHP, the only differents are the weapons. Thats the Problem with balancing it ruins the uniquiness for the sake of the Community, because all the whiners want their cheese. |
Liam Inkuras
Justified Chaos
399
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Posted - 2013.08.19 06:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Vagabond is so popular because its unique, lets Face it, the Main Problem is Most ships are just dull and average because they cant do anything special.
Look into the Command Ship Thead they all the same, same Bonuses, same Slots, same EHP, the only differents are the weapons. Thats the Problem with balancing it ruins the uniquiness for the sake of the Community, because all the whiners want their cheese. I agree with this. Stop homogenizing EvE! I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
343
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Posted - 2013.08.19 06:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
That's not entirely fair - consider the things are all but completely unused, gathering dust, station paperweights/collectors pieces then you do have a case for something being rotten.
A recent case prior to the 1.1 changes would have been the Eagle. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3282
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Posted - 2013.08.19 06:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:I am talking about statements such as this: CCP Rise wrote:
My position on the Vagabond remains relatively unchanged. Its the second most popular HAC after Zealot currently [...].
Popularity has little to nothing to do with a weapon systems or ships actual balancing problems. If a weapon type or a ship get used a lot then that does not in any form mean its op or even good. People use ships they are familar with (cane is quite bad now, yet it still is the 6th most used ship) or weapon systems they are used to ( hmls still see some use yet they are utterly terrible in reality and as all medium long ranged weapon system could use a healthy buff, yet as the only one dont get changed in 1.1). You could also argue that light blaster and railguns are better then small lalsers since they see more use (and that rockets are horrible since they see little use in coparison) but we all know that that isnt the case. Most used ship atm is a talwar yet it by no means is the best destroyer, nor is it in any way op. What im getting it is that the popularity in itself should not be used as a tool to balance. If you for example were to notice a hypothetical weapon system that is vastly under powered yet that is by far the most used ones of all systems you should not go, its fine it gets used a lot, it would still need a rebalance. Polpularitiy is no true measure of the state of balance. Stop treating it as such.
How do you measure a ship's performance then, if not by judging how it performs on TQ?
Only thing you offered in it's place is your uneducated, subjective opinion, which is worth exactly nothing in balancing discussions.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
176
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Posted - 2013.08.19 07:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Performance is in no way equal to popularity. Those are quite different.
Also my opinion is far from uneducated, at least in matters of subcapital performance not that that has anything to do with my opening post.
Please dont turn this into another ahac thread. This is about ccp using popularity as a important figure in balancing (or it coming across as such) while its really not. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5578
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Posted - 2013.08.19 07:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Performance is in no way equal to popularity. Those are quite different.
Also my opinion is far from uneducated, at least in matters of subcapital performance not that that has anything to do with my opening post.
Please dont turn this into another ahac thread. This is about ccp using popularity as a important figure in balancing (or it coming across as such) while its really not. Performance doesn't equal to popularity, but it correlates pretty well, so ignoring it would be an act of stupidity. In any group of ships it's the overpowered ships and fits people flock to and the underpowered ones they avoid. This has been proven true year after year in all different areas of EVE from combat, to hauling to mining. You can have a solid point in arguing what exactly does that popularity tell us in any particular case, but you're wasting your time trying to convince them popularity doesn't or shouldn't matter. |
Whitehound
1860
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Posted - 2013.08.19 09:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree with the notion that statistics alone do not solve problems. However, some problems show themselves as in imbalance in the statistical data, like the number of ships flown, and on a scale far beyond what a single player is capable of seeing. As such is it a valuable tool. It is important for the variety and richness of the game to avoid imbalances of this kind or else some ships could get ignored completely.
In the end will CCP need to talk to the players and look directly at the ships to understand exactly why one ship is more popular than another. It is what they have always been doing. They only cannot confirm each and every problem a player has, but spend their time on fixing these. This is what we as players need to understand.
The results of the recent balancing changes show that there is nothing to be afraid of this process in my opinion. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3282
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Posted - 2013.08.19 09:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Btw CCP doesn't rely on EVE-Kill top 20, perhaps that confuses you.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
176
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Posted - 2013.08.19 09:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Roime wrote:Btw CCP doesn't rely on EVE-Kill top 20, perhaps that confuses you.
No (well they could tbh, or they have a internal killboard database) but they use something very similar. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3282
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Posted - 2013.08.19 09:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
They have access to data such as ships built, sold and owned per pilot, jumpgate usage per ship, damage dealt per ship per sec status etc etc. Which means they are not relying on the killmail count data twisted by blob doctrines and campaigns.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
176
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Posted - 2013.08.19 09:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Roime wrote:They have access to data such as ships built, sold and owned per pilot, jumpgate usage per ship, damage dealt per ship per sec status etc etc. Which means they are not relying on the killmail count data twisted by blob doctrines and campaigns.
That doesnt mean much tho, that tells you nothing of the ships actual state. 99% of this games user are terrible (yes sound very elitstic, but its true and if you think about it you would agree just think of all the failfits and misinformation out there) at it and cant be relied on, they reflect actual balance very badly. And sadly those 99% bloat the number so they are not really usable.
I dont want them to do something dumb, i just want cpp to realize that high usage Gëá good and low usage Gëá bad.
Im quite sure they already know that yet commenst as the quoted one in the opening post make me wonder. |
Hesod Adee
Turalyon Plus
75
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Posted - 2013.08.19 09:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
So what should CCP be using to identify unbalanced ships/modules ? |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
178
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Posted - 2013.08.19 10:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing. |
Whitehound
1863
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Posted - 2013.08.19 10:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:So what should CCP be using to identify unbalanced ships/modules ? Squirrels and popcorn!
1.) Make piles of popcorn. 2.) Label each pile with a ship name. 3.) Release squirrels. 4.) Make video of it.
Will need a high-speed camera, but will look awesome. Could describe player behaviour accurately. Not sure. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
TheBlueMonkey
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
490
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Posted - 2013.08.19 12:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
TBH it should be rock, paper, scissor balancing. Even if you base that on popularity.
Every system should have an ideal counter to that system and people should realise that.
Say you're roaming around in an armor brawler gang and you run into a shield sniping gang. If they have some long points in the shield gang and the armor gang tries to fight, they're going to lose. This doesn't make the shield gang overpowered. It makes it a fight that the armor gang should withdraw from. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1577
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Posted - 2013.08.19 12:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing.
IE absolutely nothing with any relevance to the game whatsoever? |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
467
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Posted - 2013.08.19 14:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
The stated plan was to equalize the ships then skew them into unique things.
Sort of like making equal sized balls of dough then creating cakes and breads of interesting and exotic flavors, but you still have to make them equal in comparison. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
159
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Posted - 2013.08.19 14:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'd guess if someone flew vagas a lot, can see that vagas are performing well, and afterwards discards something useless and sneaks in a selective niche-boni for the ships second-most popular use, then it's not necessarily a brainless decision.
Pls Mr. C, stop crying about how you cannot solo anything anymore just cause your ship s a vaga/cyna. They are still some of the most adaptable ships, and the vaga will definetly be one of the more important HACs after that patch. (I'd actually bet on it gaining popularity with the recent PG buff)
regards I only correct my own spelling. |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2697
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Posted - 2013.08.19 15:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Moving from Features & Ideas to General Discussion. EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1316
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Posted - 2013.08.19 15:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing. they already do this. you quoted one instance of one dev commenting on the popularity of one ship. this doesn't mean they're balancing only on popularity. sorry you're upset about the vaga. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
2611
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Posted - 2013.08.19 16:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
OMG! CCP looks at statistics!
Stop it right now because I just know you're doing it wrong!
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4196
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Posted - 2013.08.19 23:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing. they already do this. you quoted one instance of one dev commenting on the popularity of one ship. this doesn't mean they're balancing only on popularity. sorry you're upset about the vaga. Wasn't that the ship with wings? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1166
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Posted - 2013.08.19 23:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
453
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era.
Funny you mentioned Drake because it was nerfed purely on the popularity it had as the go to fleet Ops sub cap. Much like all Nerfs, they failed to control blobbing because the problem is and always has been the primary alpha system in EVE.
The reason nerfing popularity isn't working, the reason it never will. No ship in this game, none, was designed to have 200 people locking it. R.I.P. Vile Rat |
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
137
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:TBH it should be rock, paper, scissor balancing. Even if you base that on popularity.
Every system should have an ideal counter to that system and people should realise that.
Say you're roaming around in an armor brawler gang and you run into a shield sniping gang. If they have some long points in the shield gang and the armor gang tries to fight, they're going to lose. This doesn't make the shield gang overpowered. It makes it a fight that the armor gang should withdraw from. This is exactly how it should be, and yes... Popularity should be taken into consideration when changes are planned. But just like someone else stated, don't mess up taking something into consideration with using that one and only type of data...
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1048
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing. they already do this. you quoted one instance of one dev commenting on the popularity of one ship. this doesn't mean they're balancing only on popularity. sorry you're upset about the vaga. Wasn't that the ship with wings? they took the wings.
they took the m-fkin wings for ****'s sake. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4196
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Can I bring my drone assist armor tanked ship There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
181
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ioci wrote:EI Digin wrote:Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era. Funny you mentioned Drake because it was nerfed purely on the popularity it had as the go to fleet Ops sub cap. Much like all Nerfs, they failed to control blobbing because the problem is and always has been the primary alpha system in EVE. The reason nerfing popularity isn't working, the reason it never will. No ship in this game, none, was designed to have 200 people locking it.
This is exactly what i mean, drakes and hmls were nerfed due to popularity not due to opness.
Also ccp usually makes the mistake of over nerfing stuff. What happens is that they take a look at the ship and decide that it is to strong as it is (sometimes they are right), then they nerf it. What they then do is usually buff everything else and dont touch the nerfed ship. In the new meta the old version would have been not op at all, yet the new one is up.
Happened to the phantasm for example (was too good got nerfed all other pirate cruisers go a buff, now its crap), same happened with the cane and the drake. And of course the dramiel (was op, then was good, then everything else got buffed, now its crap) and the rifter (altho that was just ignored). |
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