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Sigras
Conglomo
498
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Posted - 2013.08.20 07:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ive thrown this idea around in several different threads as a partial solution to some fleet logistics and force projection problems, but I think it's time that this idea had a thread of its own.
The Problem Fleet logistics has become a trivial matter, and current bridge mechanics encourage aggressive play with little to no risk on the part of the Titan. This along with the massive birth rate of Titans has led to the age of the hotdrop, a no risk high reward strategy
The Solution Reverse the titan bridge from a "push" to a "pull" EG a person usually clicks on a titan and ends up near the cyno. With this change the person would click on the cyno and end up near the titan.
This will accomplish a few things: 1. getting more titans into battle, into an area of danger 2. Assisting alliances more on defense and somewhat stunting their offensive capabilities. 3. Reducing the hotdrop issue or at least adding risk to it 4. Better Defenses and slightly weaker offense will allow more smaller alliances a place in 0.0
Thoughts? |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth R.E.P.O.
113
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Posted - 2013.08.20 14:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hey Sigras,
while i actually have fled from this stuff into w-space years ago and have not thought about it much lately i really like that approach.
+1 from me.
It will likely not really affect massive fleet battles but the stupid ops where some guys drop 20 ships and a triage carrier onto a single cruiser.
I might as well as add "slight" increase in jump fuel cost for titan bridging of about 300%
Cheers Gal |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
443
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Posted - 2013.08.20 14:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Ive thrown this idea around in several different threads as a partial solution to some fleet logistics and force projection problems, but I think it's time that this idea had a thread of its own.
The Problem Fleet logistics has become a trivial matter, and current bridge mechanics encourage aggressive play with little to no risk on the part of the Titan. This along with the massive birth rate of Titans has led to the age of the hotdrop, a no risk high reward strategy
The Solution Reverse the titan bridge from a "push" to a "pull" EG a person usually clicks on a titan and ends up near the cyno. With this change the person would click on the cyno and end up near the titan.
This will accomplish a few things: 1. getting more titans into battle, into an area of danger 2. Assisting alliances more on defense and somewhat stunting their offensive capabilities. 3. Reducing the hotdrop issue or at least adding risk to it 4. Better Defenses and slightly weaker offense will allow more smaller alliances a place in 0.0
Thoughts?
I like the reversal idea and I think it's quite ludicrous that Titans sit as "Bridging Monuments" in POS's. On the other hand they cost a shedload of materials, time and organisation so I can see why some don't field them but I like the idea but as to the impact I am not educated enough in Titans to comment.
A well structured and presented idea though so you get a +1 from me. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
Ellendras Silver
Honestly We didnt know
85
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Posted - 2013.08.20 15:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maximus Aerelius wrote:Sigras wrote:Ive thrown this idea around in several different threads as a partial solution to some fleet logistics and force projection problems, but I think it's time that this idea had a thread of its own.
The Problem Fleet logistics has become a trivial matter, and current bridge mechanics encourage aggressive play with little to no risk on the part of the Titan. This along with the massive birth rate of Titans has led to the age of the hotdrop, a no risk high reward strategy
The Solution Reverse the titan bridge from a "push" to a "pull" EG a person usually clicks on a titan and ends up near the cyno. With this change the person would click on the cyno and end up near the titan.
This will accomplish a few things: 1. getting more titans into battle, into an area of danger 2. Assisting alliances more on defense and somewhat stunting their offensive capabilities. 3. Reducing the hotdrop issue or at least adding risk to it 4. Better Defenses and slightly weaker offense will allow more smaller alliances a place in 0.0
Thoughts? I like the reversal idea and I think it's quite ludicrous that Titans sit as "Bridging Monuments" in POS's. On the other hand they cost a shedload of materials, time and organisation so I can see why some don't field them but I like the idea but as to the impact I am not educated enough in Titans to comment. A well structured and presented idea though so you get a +1 from me.
well rule nr 1 as i learned it was dont fly what you cant afford to loose in that light a titan needs to be in POS and so be flown. I too gave this a +1 but to be fair this cant be implementated before caps are rebalanced |
Alundil
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
285
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 15:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
+1 as I too would like to see titans used in actual combat scenarios as opposed to simply being a glorified "people mover" as they are most commonly used now. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
17
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Posted - 2013.08.20 16:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
It's an intriguing idea but I think it would more likely cause people to stop using Titans all-together as a means of entering combat since they let you skip a relatively small number of jumps in most cases and deploying a Titan onto the field in even a moderate sized battle means you are likely to lose it regardless of the battle outcome unless you deploy absolutely overwhelming force to defend it. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
469
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 17:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
I approve, this would allow pos jump bridges to push as now so you can end up with clever strategies from that.
And if you cant risk the titan, then you shouldnt have one. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5826
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 17:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
While this idea does bring more risk to the most risk adverse group in the game(titan pilots, not nullbear ratters who are afraid of the boogeyman), It doesn't do much for the whole "force projection' side of the equation.
Adding a mass limit like a wormhole to Titan bridges would help out quite a bit. You could even add this to OPs current idea.
Titan "push" bridge - tighter mass limit. Titan "pull" bridge - higher mass limit.
This way, with more risk on the titans end, you can have more rewards on the "force projection' end.
Another idea would to simply make Titan bridges not work within X km of Force fields, eliminating the POS nesting Titans, or the "just the tip" style of "out of POS" combat. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Sigras
Conglomo
505
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 07:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:It's an intriguing idea but I think it would more likely cause people to stop using Titans all-together as a means of entering combat since they let you skip a relatively small number of jumps in most cases and deploying a Titan onto the field in even a moderate sized battle means you are likely to lose it regardless of the battle outcome unless you deploy absolutely overwhelming force to defend it. Perhaps an upgrade to its command or combat capabilities would be in order in light of this change as it would be perceived by most as a nerf.
Probably in the area of survivability |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15455
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Posted - 2013.08.21 10:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
I quite like this idea. Although whether it gets implemented or not, is another matter.
+1
As far as mass limits are concerned, I believe they would only really affect smaller groups. Large entities would simply use more titans.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1460
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Posted - 2013.08.21 10:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
+1 from me, titans need to be brought to the field. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
173
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 10:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
+1
Combat that slowly escalates is always better than digital combat.
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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
293
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 11:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Make titan bridging possible only outside of POS forcefield (like links are going to be in odyssey 1.1) and problem will be solved without escalations "cruiser gang > supercapital fight". Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Disiri Skai
Sons of The Forge SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Its like you people come up with a solution to a problem that really doesnt exist.
All this would do is put the final nail on the use of titans. There would be no point for any small group to ever use one because their titan would die the first time its use to bridge. And for large groups they will only use them when they know there gonna have overwhelming victory. Sounds familiar...like the current use of supers...only use when you know there not gonna be lose and by those that own a ton of them. |
waltari
Eclipse Navy. Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
I would +1 this idea under one condition, make the doomsday again AOE, in that case it makes sense, without AOE DD it doesnt make any sense whatsoever. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
447
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I quite like this idea. Although whether it gets implemented or not, is another matter.
+1
As far as mass limits are concerned, I believe they would only really affect smaller groups. Large entities would simply use more titans.
I don't see this being a disadvantage to smaller groups as smaller = less mass = less Titans required and if Rule #1 is applied of "Can't afford to lose it don't buy it\fly it" then it would possibly bring more Titans out for intriguing fights.
As for large groups...well more force projection should mean more risk and thus more mass = more Titans. Make people really think about there use and if they require that Titan or the tactical\psychological impact a Titan could have on the field.
As stated above, not a Titan Pilot, so these are just my general thoughts so don't flame me for my ignorance but feel free to educate me, I'm all for that. Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
Sigras
Conglomo
509
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 20:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Disiri Skai wrote:Its like you people come up with a solution to a problem that really doesnt exist. Is it your position that titan hot dropping is not currently a problem? because I feel like that isnt going to be a very popular position.
Disiri Skai wrote:All this would do is put the final nail on the use of titans. There would be no point for any small group to ever use one because their titan would die the first time its use to bridge. And for large groups they will only use them when they know there gonna have overwhelming victory. Sounds familiar...like the current use of supers...only use when you know there not gonna be lose and by those that own a ton of them. And you just showed the perfect reason this change is necessary. Nobody ever thinks of Titans as weapons of defense, everyone only ever thinks of titans as offensive weapons to force project large fleets to distant battlefields.
Think of the buff this is to defense. To be able to sit a titan in a cyno jammed system and pull reinforcement fleets in; I would even allow it to bring in carriers and dreadnoughts This would open up incredible defensive opportunities for smaller alliances who dont have massive swaths of space to defend.
For the risk averse, you could still sit the Titan in a POS and pull fleets into the shield bubble with you, but honestly, if youre not willing to use your titan, you probably shouldnt have it. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2581
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 20:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Here is a twist for you.
Titan fishing.
The previous ship, the one associated with a hot drop mechanic that lit the cyno itself by a target, would get a role as a target locator.
The cyno, under this use, would require a script to use, and could not function in this mode at all if a cloak was fitted.
The script would allow the ship to use the cyno field generator, and target a ship with it. Similar to the logic that a hictor can use a script and target their interdiction field on a vessel for the infinipoint.
Possible to limit this to only one class of ship, but that is tricky. Might be good for the Marauder perhaps.
Now, how it would work: The special cyno ship gets on grid with the target. Instead of the usual warp scramble / point, the exact opposite effect is used. The ship targeted is removed from the grid entirely, and jumped to the location of the Titan that pulled it in.
Could this be turned onto the attacker? OH YES.
Now, just imagine of this ship, that was just fished to the titan, was also equipped with one of these. (It was a bait ship) That titan gets targeted, and pulled to the titan working with the original "bait" target.
Happy waiting fleet gets tasty lunch.
Roll credits. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Sigras
Conglomo
509
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 22:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Here is a twist for you.
Titan fishing.
The previous ship, the one associated with a hot drop mechanic that lit the cyno itself by a target, would get a role as a target locator.
The cyno, under this use, would require a script to use, and could not function in this mode at all if a cloak was fitted.
The script would allow the ship to use the cyno field generator, and target a ship with it. Similar to the logic that a hictor can use a script and target their interdiction field on a vessel for the infinipoint.
Possible to limit this to only one class of ship, but that is tricky. Might be good for the Marauder perhaps.
Now, how it would work: The special cyno ship gets on grid with the target. Instead of the usual warp scramble / point, the exact opposite effect is used. The ship targeted is removed from the grid entirely, and jumped to the location of the Titan that pulled it in.
Could this be turned onto the attacker? OH YES.
Now, just imagine of this ship, that was just fished to the titan, was also equipped with one of these. (It was a bait ship) That titan gets targeted, and pulled to the titan working with the original "bait" target.
Happy waiting fleet gets tasty lunch.
Roll credits. Im not sure that I understand what you're proposing . . . From what I can gather Arazu A is in system Old Man Star and is in fleet with an Erebus E in system Ladistier along with the rest of the fleet.
They are getting ready to hot drop a ratting Raven R in Old Man Star. As soon as the cyno opens Paladin P warps to it and activates this module on the cyno.
Paladin P then appears in system Ladistier next to the Erebus E? what good does that do him? he's now in the middle of an enemy POS and going to get thrown out at 30 km/s
Do I have an accurate description of what you mean? |
Sigras
Conglomo
509
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 06:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
waltari wrote:I would +1 this idea under one condition, make the doomsday again AOE, in that case it makes sense, without AOE DD it doesnt make any sense whatsoever. Why does it not make sense without the DD? |
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suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
53
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 07:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
The ironic thing about this is all the replies saying titans should be on the field
Think back... titans used to see the field much more often
But then everyone cried about it
So titans got hit with the nerf bat (repeatedly), they lost AOE DD, DD SubCaps, Tracking etc
You turned them into what they are today
It's not really that you want titans on the field... you just want an expensive km to pad your boards.
Either that or you just want to nerf the last remaining use for them.
|
Smelly PirateWhore
Reikoku The Retirement Club
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 11:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
I wholeheartedly agree that the existence of titan bridges and jump bridges is bother far too overpowering (i.e. giving an alliance the ability to jump it's ENTIRE force literally across the universe in a matter of minutes) and is partially the reason that nullsec is so devoid of life - i just can't accept that it should be possible to fly across entire regions of sov space and not see a single other pilot.
But what about increasing the fuel cost for bridging, so that it limits the number and or size of ships that can be bridged at a time? Another suggestion I would make is introducing a sort of, sensor recalibration time, similar to that which follows a decloak, upon using a bridge?
or something else that's just occurred to me, how about the bridge mechanics work by opening a wormhole with the same mechanics as an actual wormhole for a short time? Allowing 2 way travel, with a mass limit and a timer following a 2-way jump. The interesting tactic this would introduce is the possibility of opening a bridge and having a hostile force enter that bridge - introducing an actual threat to the titan |
seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
226
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 12:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
For once, an idea of yours i agree with +1.
Projection of large fleets at the moment is far to easy being able to send them to the location of a single small ship in one move. Having to send the titan in first will cause fleets to consider what they're jumping on before popping open a bridge. One thing that needs considering first though is how are you going to get that titan to the location you want to bridge to if the cyno is being used to send people to you? |
Mr Doctor
Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel
40
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 13:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
I dont like the pull idea its too messy, just make the Titan (or blops) jump with the bridged ships. Instead of getting a "bridge to xxx" subcaps get a "jump with titan" then instead of firing the ships off the titan itself jumps and the ships that opted to jump get sucked off with it. Who doesn't like being sucked off? |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
170
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 14:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:For once, an idea of yours i agree with +1.
Projection of large fleets at the moment is far to easy being able to send them to the location of a single small ship in one move. Having to send the titan in first will cause fleets to consider what they're jumping on before popping open a bridge. One thing that needs considering first though is how are you going to get that titan to the location you want to bridge to if the cyno is being used to send people to you? this could be easy:
a pos bridge module.
you cyno in the titan => titan land and open a bridge connected to the module in the pos => rest of fleet follow (and if you want cap, well there is a cyno already).
basically, in this scenario, titan is a gate you move using a cyno, and thus cyno can only be used by ship witha jump drive.
in a nutshell, disconnect cyno from bridging |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
831
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 15:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
My idea is this: Make titans have to use Stargates, when they get to there destination they can enter a siege mode that can be maintained past downtime, making the titan like a mobile station.
Now the titan is a mobile beachhead that must be transported to the front with lots of work and its defense is a major tactical goal. Invading someone's space is no trivial matter, and neither should use of a titan. Organizing an op to escort the titan should be just as important as forming up to attack a station.
Also the titan should have its jump range boosted and be forced to connect to a jump bridge attached to a pos or another titan forming a chain. Putting a bubble on a titan disables the ability for people to jump back and forth letting defenders disrupt the titan chain for reasons. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2585
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 15:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Here is a twist for you.
Titan fishing.
The previous ship, the one associated with a hot drop mechanic that lit the cyno itself by a target, would get a role as a target locator.
The cyno, under this use, would require a script to use, and could not function in this mode at all if a cloak was fitted.
The script would allow the ship to use the cyno field generator, and target a ship with it. Similar to the logic that a hictor can use a script and target their interdiction field on a vessel for the infinipoint.
Possible to limit this to only one class of ship, but that is tricky. Might be good for the Marauder perhaps.
Now, how it would work: The special cyno ship gets on grid with the target. Instead of the usual warp scramble / point, the exact opposite effect is used. The ship targeted is removed from the grid entirely, and jumped to the location of the Titan that pulled it in.
Could this be turned onto the attacker? OH YES.
Now, just imagine of this ship, that was just fished to the titan, was also equipped with one of these. (It was a bait ship) That titan gets targeted, and pulled to the titan working with the original "bait" target.
Happy waiting fleet gets tasty lunch.
Roll credits. Im not sure that I understand what you're proposing . . . From what I can gather Arazu A is in system Old Man Star and is in fleet with an Erebus E in system Ladistier along with the rest of the fleet. They are getting ready to hot drop a ratting Raven R in Old Man Star. As soon as the cyno opens Paladin P warps to it and activates this module on the cyno. Paladin P then appears in system Ladistier next to the Erebus E? what good does that do him? he's now in the middle of an enemy POS and going to get thrown out at 30 km/s Do I have an accurate description of what you mean? Hmmm, no, not exactly.
The Arazu A ship targets the raven. The Erebus could not operate from a POS, since the target would be auto-bounced to safety if they tried that. The Arazu A ship engages the fishing cyno, and notifies the Erebus to reel it in. The Erebus activates it's reel bridge, bringing the raven to it's location +5km. The raven, having been a bait ship placed for this trap, locks the Erebus and engages it's fishing cyno. A Leviathan activates it's reel bridge, and the Erebus finds itself in the middle of a hostile fleet, +5km from the Leviathan.
The raven is expected to be lost, the Arazu is probably toast too. Being locked down for even 5 minutes is probably fatal, although they may adjust the time for this function. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
831
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 15:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
suid0 wrote:The ironic thing about this is all the replies saying titans should be on the field
Think back... titans used to see the field much more often
But then everyone cried about it
So titans got hit with the nerf bat (repeatedly), they lost AOE DD, DD SubCaps, Tracking etc
You turned them into what they are today
It's not really that you want titans on the field... you just want an expensive km to pad your boards.
Either that or you just want to nerf the last remaining use for them.
By being used on the field you mean using a DD, and being off grid and cloaked again in 30 seconds? Then after that we had groups of 30 of them sitting around instantly destroying whole fleets of subcaps with no counter other than more titans? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Sigras
Conglomo
514
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 18:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mr Doctor wrote:I dont like the pull idea its too messy, just make the Titan (or blops) jump with the bridged ships. Instead of getting a "bridge to xxx" subcaps get a "jump with titan" then instead of firing the ships off the titan itself jumps and the ships that opted to jump get sucked off with it. Who doesn't like being sucked off? While this would make people think twice before dropping on someone's head, It does nothing for the force projection issue. |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
54
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 07:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:suid0 wrote:The ironic thing about this is all the replies saying titans should be on the field
Think back... titans used to see the field much more often
But then everyone cried about it
So titans got hit with the nerf bat (repeatedly), they lost AOE DD, DD SubCaps, Tracking etc
You turned them into what they are today
It's not really that you want titans on the field... you just want an expensive km to pad your boards.
Either that or you just want to nerf the last remaining use for them.
By being used on the field you mean using a DD, and being off grid and cloaked again in 30 seconds?
There are several ships in this game that can deploy an area of effect warp disruptor that would prevent them getting off grid again. Perhaps you should look them up and learn about them. It's the players task and responsibility to get tackle.
Commander Ted wrote: Then after that we had groups of 30 of them sitting around instantly destroying whole fleets of subcaps with no counter other than more titans?
You brought an alpha fleet.... so did we
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