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Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2011.10.28 21:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
According to one of my alliance mates CCP GM has confirmed that it is a ban able offense to can flip/bait in rookie systems. Now I'm not disagreeing with this rule, but being this rule is NOT listed under the TOS (i didn't check the EULA but I'd be very surprised if it was in there) I think that is very problematic. If you are going to ban someone for it then it should be clearly listed on the TOS. It is listed at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Can_flipping and http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing but seriously if someone is going to see if they can be banned for something they aren't going to go to the wiki but rather the TOS and EULA. |
Nariya Kentaya
Celestial Ascension
45
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Posted - 2011.10.28 21:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:According to one of my alliance mates CCP GM has confirmed that it is a ban able offense to can flip/bait in rookie systems. Now I'm not disagreeing with this rule, but being this rule is NOT listed under the TOS (i didn't check the EULA but I'd be very surprised if it was in there) I think that is very problematic. If you are going to ban someone for it then it should be clearly listed on the TOS. It is listed at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Can_flipping and http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing but seriously if someone is going to see if they can be banned for something they aren't going to go to the wiki but rather the TOS and EULA. now, im not saying this is a good habit to develop but:
the average EvE gamer is going to be either a caucasian or black Male between the ages of 14-35, and the average male of that age group is ~4 minutes. the average ToS or EULA is about 3-90 pages long (lol).
in summary, i can guarantee less than 1% of all people who play EvE have actvively gone in and read the ToS and EULA, since at last haf of them probably didn' read the contract for their new car before tey signed it and now have 400 years of debt.
the wiki for everything is where people usually go to learn everything about that which they need to wiki. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2011.10.28 21:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Omega Flames wrote:According to one of my alliance mates CCP GM has confirmed that it is a ban able offense to can flip/bait in rookie systems. Now I'm not disagreeing with this rule, but being this rule is NOT listed under the TOS (i didn't check the EULA but I'd be very surprised if it was in there) I think that is very problematic. If you are going to ban someone for it then it should be clearly listed on the TOS. It is listed at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Can_flipping and http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing but seriously if someone is going to see if they can be banned for something they aren't going to go to the wiki but rather the TOS and EULA. now, im not saying this is a good habit to develop but: the average EvE gamer is going to be either a caucasian or black Male between the ages of 14-35, and the average male of that age group is ~4 minutes. the average ToS or EULA is about 3-90 pages long (lol). in summary, i can guarantee less than 1% of all people who play EvE have actvively gone in and read the ToS and EULA, since at last haf of them probably didn' read the contract for their new car before tey signed it and now have 400 years of debt. the wiki for everything is where people usually go to learn everything about that which they need to wiki. The TOS is only about 1.5 pages long and is full of, guess what, things you can get banned for. It only takes 1-2 sentences to say something about this and a link to either or both of those wiki documents. I'm sure most players don't read the TOS, that's not my concern nor my reason for posting this. However almost everytime someone wants to know if they can be banned for something they are going to go to the TOS and possibly the EULA but not the wiki. I never said remove the info from the wiki but I am saying add a sentence to the TOS. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
72
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Posted - 2011.10.28 21:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
I've got a better idea. If said players don't mess with extremely young players who they know don't know any better, they'll have no issues at all. CCP shouldn't have to warn people not to be an ass and grief noobs. |
Tenobia Aybara
the Organ Grinder and Company Higginbotham and Bailey's Circus
0
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Posted - 2011.10.28 22:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Its a valid point, put it in the TOS and all bases are covered properly. There is no legal requirement to read the wiki, however you are expected (even if you do not) to have read the TOS. |
Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
16
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Posted - 2011.10.29 01:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
mxzf wrote:I've got a better idea. If said players don't mess with extremely young players who they know don't know any better, they'll have no issues at all. CCP shouldn't have to warn people not to be an ass and grief noobs.
So you are taking away our CCP given right to be asses and grief people?
I propose all noob ships be indestructible for the first 20 days of a new account. Try grief them noobs now, smart asses |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
9
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Posted - 2011.10.30 11:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
It's infeasible to detail every rule in the TOS. |
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
24
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Posted - 2011.10.30 12:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
It is listed in the ToS. Item #16
ToS wrote: You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules
[/quote]
Just because you don't know every rule, doesn't mean every possible thing needs to be listed. It is your responsibility to find out, and there are multiple ways which take just a couple of minutes.
Try explaining to a judge IRL that you didn't know what you did was wrong. They will just laugh and watch you rot in a small cell.
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Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
6
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Posted - 2011.10.30 16:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
A noob just starting the game is clueless about agro mechanics. so neither would they steal ore to bait people, nor would they even have much skills to do it.
They might assume it is imposable to steal other players loot in space, what other major MMO after all has free looting?
A player who flips cans deliberately and is in gank ship, knows how to play game, and is not starting out. They may try it on noobs or experienced players, but if they do it on noobs in obvious starter system they face punishment.
No problems here. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
4
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Posted - 2011.10.30 21:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breaker77 wrote:It is listed in the ToS. Item #16 ToS wrote: You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules
Just because you don't know every rule, doesn't mean every possible thing needs to be listed. It is your responsibility to find out, and there are multiple ways which take just a couple of minutes. Try explaining to a judge IRL that you didn't know what you did was wrong. They will just laugh and watch you rot in a small cell. 1. can flipping is a part of the game so it wouldnt fall under that rule to begin with. 2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:A noob just starting the game is clueless about agro mechanics. so neither would they steal ore to bait people, nor would they even have much skills to do it.
They might assume it is imposable to steal other players loot in space, what other major MMO after all has free looting?
A player who flips cans deliberately and is in gank ship, knows how to play game, and is not starting out. They may try it on noobs or experienced players, but if they do it on noobs in obvious starter system they face punishment.
No problems here. read what I said for once and you would understand I am not against having it a rule, I am against the fact it isn't listed in the obvious place for bannable offenses to be listed.
Wyke Mossari wrote: It's infeasible to detail every rule in the TOS.
actually that is exactly why EULA's and TOS's are created |
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
73
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Posted - 2011.10.31 01:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Smiling Menace wrote:mxzf wrote:I've got a better idea. If said players don't mess with extremely young players who they know don't know any better, they'll have no issues at all. CCP shouldn't have to warn people not to be an ass and grief noobs. So you are taking away our CCP given right to be asses and grief people?
I'm not saying that at all. I was just saying that people shouldn't deliberately do it to noobs who don't know what's going on to begin with. If you want to try something like that with me, a player who's been around for a few years and knows how aggression works, that's fine. But doing the same kind of thing to a noob who still hasn't gotten around to leaving the system they started in (and possibly doesn't even know how) is a different matter. |
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
26
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Posted - 2011.10.31 01:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote: 2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.
So you want a ToS that looks like this?
I think not!
BTW, that is the vehicle code for the state I live in. Just because a person doesn't know every word in it does not mean you won't get screwed over if you break the rules!
Ignorance is no excuse!
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Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
46
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Posted - 2011.10.31 02:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:the average EvE gamer is going to be either a caucasian or black Male between the ages of 14-35, and the average male of that age group is ~4 minutes. the average ToS or EULA is about 3-90 pages long (lol).
Not that they can read anyway
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Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 08:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Breaker77 wrote:Omega Flames wrote: 2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.
So you want a ToS that looks like this? I think not! BTW, that is the vehicle code for the state I live in. Just because a person doesn't know every word in it does not mean you won't get screwed over if you break the rules! Ignorance is no excuse! Actually the EULA already does look like that. Guess what isn't there...you got it, can flipping people in rookie systems. |
Anshio Tamark
Avitus Lugus
18
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Posted - 2011.10.31 08:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Breaker77 wrote:Omega Flames wrote: 2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.
So you want a ToS that looks like this? I think not! BTW, that is the vehicle code for the state I live in. Just because a person doesn't know every word in it does not mean you won't get screwed over if you break the rules! Ignorance is no excuse! Actually the EULA already does look like that. Guess what isn't there...you got it, can flipping people in rookie systems. Probably because there's no reason for anyone to be in a Rookie System after the first few days, so apparently CCP didn't think it was necessary to write this in the EULA/TOS.
But going by the strict word of the TOS, DoucheSwarm would be banned. They gank people in high-sec, which prevents the ganked people from enjoying the game, which is forbidden by the EULA/TOS. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 10:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Anshio Tamark wrote: Probably because there's no reason for anyone to be in a Rookie System after the first few days, so apparently CCP didn't think it was necessary to write this in the EULA/TOS.
But going by the strict word of the TOS, DoucheSwarm would be banned. They gank people in high-sec, which prevents the ganked people from enjoying the game, which is forbidden by the EULA/TOS.
Actually there are plenty of reasons to be in a rookie system, they have belts just like every other system, they have stations just like every other system. they have agents just like every other system. In fact a rookie system is exactly like every other 1.0 system with only 1 exception...people start there. Maybe you should actually read the rules yourself before commenting because as the game rules state ganking in highsec is allowed. Quit being a troll. |
lilol' me
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.10.31 10:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP annoy me with crap like this. If they dont like something, then bloody change it. Stop people being able to do it then FFS!
Basically dont allow cargo to cargo exchanges then! Its not hard.. |
Shaidar Hussan
Uncontrollable Violence Rage Alliance
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 15:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Seconded, if only so that I can create an army of indestructible noob ships. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
133
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Posted - 2011.10.31 17:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quote:You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in the EVE Online game world or using the EVE Online web site.
That right there is enough to tell me that if CCP states a rule on any website then it is a rule to be followed. Common sense says the EvE Wiki counts. That was #6. Numbers 25 and 26 state the following...
Quote: CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userGÇÖs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.
We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
Break the rules and get busted...you would lose in court since can flipping is against the rules set forth by CCP. If you failed to read the rules then how is that the fault of CCP? Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
13
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Posted - 2011.10.31 22:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
There is a bit in the EULA (or TOS can't remember) about CCP being able to cancel your account for any reason.
This is covered under that. |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Go Petition Blizzard
211
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Posted - 2011.10.31 22:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
What bothers me about it is the blanket protection given to new players in that they can ignore the warnings given for opening cans and it's somehow the fault of others if they take a bait can (no, i don't can bait noobs). If CCP wants to protect new players, they should institute aggro immunity and prevent can flipping for new players inside of rookie systems. Limit it to 5-7 days and add in a tutorial that explains what those things are and that they go on outside the rookie systems and you'll have protected noobs without the GMs having to warn people who don't know it's against the hidden rules (if it's not in the TOS or EULA as a rule, it's hidden). |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
182
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Posted - 2011.11.01 01:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
can flipping isnt against the rules can flipping in ROOKIE systems is against the rules this prevents operation im bad at the game and need to kill rookies in frigs to feel better about myself. |
Traffic Warden
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
10
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Posted - 2011.11.01 14:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Smiling Menace wrote:mxzf wrote:I've got a better idea. If said players don't mess with extremely young players who they know don't know any better, they'll have no issues at all. CCP shouldn't have to warn people not to be an ass and grief noobs. So you are taking away our CCP given right to be asses and grief people? I'm not saying that at all. I was just saying that people shouldn't deliberately do it to noobs who don't know what's going on to begin with. If you want to try something like that with me, a player who's been around for a few years and knows how aggression works, that's fine. But doing the same kind of thing to a noob who still hasn't gotten around to leaving the system they started in (and possibly doesn't even know how) is a different matter.
One of the best things that happened to me early on (my second day of trial I think on my first toon) was getting can flipped then blown up. Lost virtually nothing due to only being in frig with ass for fittings, was taught hi-sec is not safe, and was prompted to immediatly go read up on aggro mechanics so I wouldn't be dumb enough to let something similar happen again. Far better it happen in belt in the starter system than any time down the line when I was in a barge or exhumer. I'm not trying to pretend like I'm performing some public service when I go out stealing ore, but surely it's best to discover these things early. |
Zleon Leigh
80
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Posted - 2012.01.29 22:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
+1 add to TOS or CCP document most commonly violated undocumented rules Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Orion GUardian
114
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Posted - 2012.01.31 16:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
You know, I am pretty sure anyone who does thta will get a warning first instead of getting a ban ;)
And to the one talking about "not knowing a law and judges": That depends really. If there is an obscure law you do not know about (and that common sense does not dictate) you might get off light....that does not hold true for laws you are "supposed to know" (all traffic laws more or elss after getting your license) or the once covered by common sense (hurting people, stealing etc) |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
997
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Posted - 2012.01.31 19:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:+1 add to TOS or CCP document most commonly violated undocumented rules
The blatantly obvious pop up warning when you open a can that doesn't belong to you isn't enough? Sorry...we shouldn't dumb things down for idiots that can't read.
I congratulate you on searching and finding a post on the subject instead of posting a new one. While necro posting a thread that is 2 months old is annoying at least you aren't posting yet ANOTHER thread on the subject.
EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
8
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Posted - 2012.02.02 12:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:A noob just starting the game is clueless about agro mechanics. so neither would they steal ore to bait people, nor would they even have much skills to do it.
They might assume it is imposable to steal other players loot in space, what other major MMO after all has free looting?
A player who flips cans deliberately and is in gank ship, knows how to play game, and is not starting out. They may try it on noobs or experienced players, but if they do it on noobs in obvious starter system they face punishment.
No problems here.
It's not just n00bs who are clueless about aggro mechanics!!! I got an old post about my confusion with it all. There are a few of us who when we see QQ in local and see the player is 10 days old do try and offer some support rather than the usual, "Lol, nub - L2P" comments that are so popular.
The trouble is. n00bs don't just stay in the starter systems. The last issue above was an 11 day old player, a Gallante, in Gulfonodi of all places. |
Omega Flames
Ardent Spirits Initiative Mercenaries
20
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Posted - 2012.02.15 02:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
1. This topic was never intended to discuss whether people should be banned for can baiting in noob systems. 8 people out of 20 who posted here are too stupid to read the OP that clearly states my only concern was that it should be in the TOS/EULA not if it should be bannable. So much for eve players being smarter than your average rock
2. Almost all games out there put things that you can be banned for in the TOS/EULA. Requiring me to also search for every CCP employee's post (of which the only realistic method is to use eve-search not a CCP maintained search utility) or every page in the wiki (at least the EULA has an order to it, the wiki doesn't even have a site map for me to make sure I've read the entire thing) is unrealistic. No other game I know of lists bannable offenses in the wiki like CCP does so any player isn't going to expect them to here. All that is required is 1 sentence in the TOS and a link added that points to the wiki page with a more detailed explanation.
The quote above is literally all that is required and puts a pointer to related detailed wiki page. |
Callista Nueva
Geminous inc Payment Required
2
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Posted - 2012.02.15 12:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Heck granted i've been playing for ages and i never done the tutorial agents so i decided to do so just so i can say i have done it this was less than a week ago, some people there warn griefers flippers and everything these certain people just don't care they'd hang around this system with a apocalypse hell i saw someone there with a nightmare once in jouv.
They would can flip, grief, pod kill and sucker newbie players in, and when the threats came they would laugh, i reckon CCP should make it impossible for PvP item theft or otherwise in these systems but its them that choose how EvE work's not me of course.
One thing that is highly annoying though is the people in rookie systems are one of four categories: Newbies Griefers(can flippers, baiters pod killers etc) People who are there solely to do training agents(Tutorial missions) People who are there solely to moan at griefers and threaten to place a petition against them Just because i see things in a differant viewpoint does not make me paranoid it makes me a bit obsolete in the majorities views.
Aand i do love the thought of Using repair drones as bait O: |
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