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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12449
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 09:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:no, we need someone who enjoys grinding down structures, has a story to tell and loses large numbers of men. Perhaps a WW1 general. General Melchett from Blackadder goes Forth?, or his real life equivalent Field Marshal Douglas Haig?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12467
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Posted - 2013.08.28 13:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Thanks. That's some crappy article. It's the normal pretentious crap from The Grauniad, it's nearly as biased as the Daily Fail.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12554
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 19:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Well that is what part of my sig means...
That if you remove the restriction on morality, then your deep down emotions come out. Immoral and amoral are two entirely different things.
Immoral is having no morality, being wicked or evil. If you are immoral, you know what society considers right and wrong, yet you do wrong anyway.
Amoral is having no morals at all.
While many acts committed in Eve are consider immoral, given the lore, backstory, the societal norms of the factions and the general nature of the game they are actually amoral.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12726
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Posted - 2013.08.30 01:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Of course you wouldn't volunteer this information, but if they asked you for your Facebook, Xbox live, and online gaming behavior would you feel comfortable giving it to them? They already ask for credit score and search for Facebook accounts as it is. What would they think if they saw "Just scammed someone in EVE online!" as one of your Facebook statuses? Would they understand that "its just a game"?
Any employer who asks for that sort of information is not worth working for, in fact I believe there was a case recently where it was deemed illegal for them to ask for that sort of information.
It's very easy to stop an employer finding or viewing your facebook account, lock it down using the tools facebook provide which incidentally can also stop Google crawling your particular account. A google search for my real name brings up zero results, relating to me personally, despite having a facebook account that uses it.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12726
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:EVE Online: YOU'RE A BAD PERSON AND SHOULDN'T GET A JOB
BE SCARED Unless it's in politics and banking, in which case anything you can do in Eve is considered a minor misdemeanor.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12728
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 02:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:snip Just because the game says you can do such a thing, doesn't make it moral. The game itself doesn't have the rules of morality, that is still subjective to society and the person committing the action.
I'm not saying that you are a bad person who should be arrested... I'm saying you still have actions of morality can be judged by the rest of society however slight.
What you're suggesting is that we should carry our real world morals into a virtual world. Real world morals are the result of societal norms which is all fine and dandy. However, they do get thrown out of the window when it suits our purposes, for example wars and oppression.
The societal norms in Eve are different from that of the real world in that morals are not the norm. You're free to bring your real world morals into this world, just as others are free to ignore them because the norm here is to "do unto others before they do unto you".
Society and its norms change rapidly, 200 years ago slavery was acceptable, today it is not, 500 years ago committing genocide on the natives of far off lands, because we wanted their stuff, was considered a divine right, today that is generally considered completely unacceptable, it still happens to a certain extent, but is washed over by politicians and spin doctors.
Eve is set 21,000 years in the future, the 4 factions have been cut off from humanity for millennia, who is to say that the behaviour of a human population cut off from mainstream humanity for that amount of time would conform to what we consider normal in the real world?
In nature and in our own history, the strong have always preyed upon the weak, the strong have always become powerful at the expense of the weak, Eve is actually a purer reflection of the natural order of things than the norms real world society has adopted and expects us to live by.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12728
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: There is still morality in EVE. I mean the Empires frown everytime you gank in hi-sec and concord you. You lose sec status when you pod people in lowsec so there is some sort of law enforcement and judgement of morality on your actions (besides those of other players).
Law enforcement != morals, killing another person is generally considered immoral, unless the law says otherwise, how is the law moral in that instance?
Quote:If you gank someone in null, then I say there is less of a moral judgement since there is no in game punishment on said behavior and people usually expect those who are out in null sec are there willingly.
Except if you awox and blue and then you have moral judgement of those who are in said alliance who would frown on such behavior.
In Eve you're an immortal, other peoples personal judgements are meaningless when it's impossible to be killed.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12728
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Andski wrote: This is complete and utter nonsense and you should feel bad for saying it. Participation in EVE is entirely voluntary.
I'd have used the words "meaningless twaddle" myself. He's intent on trying to push 21st century norms on a fictional universe that's based in the 230th century and populated by people who've been disconnected from the rest of humanity for thousands of years.
It's akin to pushing our western norms onto an amazonian tribe that's still technologically in the stone or bronze age.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12728
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: Well the law implies that you frown on others in said behavior which it simply does. I suppose I should clarify.
To those who don't want to be ganked, your actions are immoral. To those who are doing the ganking, you probaly have no morals to worry about.
But to deny that people get all mad when you gank them because you violated their sense of morality, denies the fact that there are real tears to be had.
Nope they cry because they've developed a physical attachment to a virtual object in a virtual universe, it's like being a child and stealing another kids toys, the other kid doesn't cry because they've made a moral judgement, they cry because they no longer have what you took.
Quote:[edit]
And other people's judgements are real. You can be kicked from a an alliance that you were making lots of money in or have your ship killed that was worth a great deal of isk. There are consequences other than just death. Which in itself is meaningless, if I join an alliance with the intent of awoxing them sometime in the future, and they kick me for awoxing, what is the consequence? At worst I've lost the chance to awox them some more, at best I've refuelled my tear tank, and had a giggle doing so.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12728
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well to be fair, I'm not arguing because I know I will convince you to change your mind or anything (hardly you people are set in your ways and have amazing rationalization defenses). I am just attempting to get people to come up with reaons to why they think they are right and spend the time and effort to put those into words.
And to test how long you will keep replying...
Although, not to diminish the argument I am saying. I still genuinely believe the things I say. I just don't care if you agree or not.
Well here's the thing, I generally play this game according to my own moral code, I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live. What I don't do is try to force my own personal moral code on others, I accept that others may not share my personal moral code, or are amoral when it comes to pixels, and tbh, fair play to them.
In this game, morals are a weakness to be exploited.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12728
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 03:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live. That sounds like a moral code to me. I'm not saying that the in game morality is equivalent to real life morality. I am saying there is good and evil choices to be made in EVE. If you can't accept that, then you are blind to the amazing flavor EVE has for its users. The amazing thing about EVE is that you can decide to be good and evil. If you were just playing a game where you forced to be good or bad depending on the side you chose like WoW or Star Wars, it would be bland and boring. Why can't you people accept that virtual sin is not something to be ashamed of, but rather to be embraced. If there wasn't evil in EVE then all the good things that people do would be just as pointless.
Way to butcher and nitpick a quote, what I actually said was "Well here's the thing, I generally play this game according to my own moral code, I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live. What I don't do is try to force my own personal moral code on others, I accept that others may not share my personal moral code..."
Yes I have a moral code, and generally I adhere to it. However, I don't expect others to and I don't judge them for not following it.
The key word is PERSONAL, it only applies to me, it doesn't apply to others and nor should it.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: Let's take a subset of players... Say miners. I would say the majority of miners would believe that you are playing a "good" player rather than "evil".
As a collective these miners have belief in morality like a subset of real life society would have. Some might have different views like that speeding in a car is ok and whatnot. Others not so much.
I know you don't judge, but others do and in this judgement comes good and evil.
If you commit an evil action I judge you because thats what humans do.
Personally, I don't think the police should come to your house and arrest you, but I most likley wouldn't trust you in EVE.
Does that make sense? Morality comes from not only individual judgment by subsets of groups as a whole.
What you may think to be moral, others may not agree.
Sure I am projecting, but that is what humans do.
And I'm confused to why people won't embrace being evil.
I've ganked ships and I would say my alignment in EVE is evil. Why can't people embrace this without being ashamed of their actions?
I don't actually care what others think of my own personal moral code, their thoughts on it are meaningless, that's why I say it's a personal code. Believe me miners wouldn't consider me good in any way, I may not gank them personally, not on this character anyway, but I'm quite happy to make money hand over fist from their misery, I'm a shareholder in the New Order, I supply BPCs, rigs, modules and ships to them, as well as sell ships, modules etc to both miners and gankers.
While I may have a moral code, money does not, in the real world I would probably be considered a war profiteer.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: No, you are suggesting that we leave our morality (which is an inseparable part of who we are) at the login screen. And that would be fine and possible, if the actions that we took in-game had no external effect. But for whatever reason, the actions in-game obviously do have external effects. That is the reason we play the game at all.
Your suggestion is analagous to dressing up in a gorilla suit and beating someone to death, then taking off the suit and expecting not to be judged for your actions because, after all, you were a gorilla. We are suggesting that, no, you're a murderer.
Now you're really reaching. Go away.
Quote:It's possible to just play the game and still hurt someone's feelings, just like it's possible to just play ice hockey and still break someone's leg, but if you asked most ice hockey players, I'd bet most of them would tell you they'd rather lose the game than break their opponent's leg. They would put their moral integrity above winning the game. And, even rarer than someone willing to break another person's leg to win would be someone who was willing to LOSE so long as they were able to break someone elses' leg. Similarly, when you pay effort, time, money, ISK, etc. in EVE in the hope of just ruining someone's game, that is a moral decision.
{sarcasm}You've never played ice hockey have you? {/sarcasm} It's the only sport where the game starts sometime during the fight.
The difference between Eve and, using your example ice hockey, is that in Eve no physical harm is done, it's all 1's and 0's not bones and physical pain.
Quote:To justify our behavior with "It's just a game." is no more noble or defensible than "She deserved it." or "Blacks/Jews/women/etc. aren't our equals." or "It was a war." or even "I was drunk.". What happens in Vegas DOES NOT actually stay in Vegas. Frankly that is an unconscionable comparison, a computer game should never ever be compared to your examples. You should be ashamed of yourself for comparing a form of virtual entertainment to such things, you sir, disgust me.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Don't you feel guilty about ganking yet, having been compared to murder, ****, racial profiling and substance abuse? Actually no, he's just been added to my gank alts watch list
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Well you could say his morality offends you using a virtual extension of the game? No?
I mean he seems to have gotten an emotional response out of you. His comparison was in no way moral, he compared a video game to racism, sexual assault, war crimes and substance abuse. Three of them are amongst the foulest things you can do to other human beings, two of them have a long lasting physical and mental effect on the victims, the third has the potential to do so.
Depriving someone of pixels in a game, that incidentally, is all about conflict and power is in no way comparable.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: So would you say that his text was immoral? Maybe evil even?
I would say it was idiotic, over exaggerated, ill considered and offensive. Some may well consider it immoral, I won't make that judgement as it was clearly a comparison designed to elicit an emotional response.
TL;DR It was a deliberate troll, and I fell for it.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: You didn't answer the question... Was it wrong for him to say it?
Right and wrong don't come into it, it was a troll, specifically designed to offend.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Now you're really reaching. Do you know any really bad people, Jonah Gravenstein? What do they tell you about why they are bad? What does their "morality" look like? Don't you think they have justifications for the bad things they do, and don't you think those justifications look a hell of a lot like some of yours? Why are they "bad" but the people in EVE are "just playing"? You don't appear to be able to separate reality from fantasy, I suggest you get that checked out, it's a common symptom of mental illness. Eve is a fantasy, the same as every other game, as well as films and books, they're entertainment, an escape from the reality of life.
Quote:I almost think EVE players are worse, because they only do it because they know they face little/no real world consequence. At least a real murderer takes a real risk, faces a real loss. Once again, it's a fantasy world, an escape from the drudgery of reality. The punishment fits the crime, murdering someone in real life is very different from exploding someone in an internet spaceships game.
Quote:BTW, I'm in Osmon, if you feel like ganking me. I can ship down to a Retriever if you need. Why would I do it when you're expecting it? It's much more fun for me to do it in 6 months time when you're not.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12730
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
So its neither right nor wrong to troll?
Shouldn't it be wrong to troll?
I'm indifferent to be honest, a little annoyed at myself for getting caught by it, but that's life.
Quote:But anyways, aren't you offended by the troll because it offends your morality of the comparisons?
And if you are offended doesn't that mean that there is some right and wrong in forums which is an extension of EVE? I'm offended because of the magnitude, not the morality, of what was used for comparison, it's as simple as that. If he had used for example a so called "victimless crime", such as embezzlement or something that would normally be covered by insurance, that would have been non offensive.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12735
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.
Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego?
I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12740
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote: Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.
Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego? I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way. Yes but in his instance he compared you to morally questionable activities. he didn't insult you, but rather compared you to certain people who did immoral things. If you didn't think those activities were immoral, I don't think you would have gotten upset. He trivialised some pretty offensive, and yes I'll admit it morally wrong acts, so that he could compare them to violence in a computer game. I found the trivialisation extremely offensive, if he had trivialised 9/11, 7/7 or WWI & II to the same extent I would have been just as offended.
Alavaria Fera wrote: Politicians don't violate your sense of morality, eh.
That's reaching a bit, surely.
You got me there. Game, set and match.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12740
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Taking some space pixels away by means of 1400mm Howitzer Artillery turrets is like taking a life.
Stealing some space pixels is like ravaging a, well you know.
When you shoot a non-blue, it's like, well you also know, ~profiling~ or something Don't forget, invading someone else's space makes you literally a tinpot failed house painter with a funny 'tache and a dodgy haircut.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12741
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'm wondering how long that part of his post will remain visible? I'm fairly certain that others will find it as offensive as I did and, unlike myself, report it as such.
IB4ISD
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: Is pulling a trigger that much harder than clicking a mouse? Wouldn't you think the real difficulty was in justifying that action? My question, which you can't seem to answer is: How is the decision to do the first action different from the decision to do the second one?
Ahh trivialisation of a life changing decision, true to form.
In answer to your question, impact, one deprives someone of their life, the other deprives someone of a few pixels. The impact of the decision actually makes a difference to the way you make the decision, unless of course you have no respect for human life.
As I said earlier, you appear to have problems with the whole fantasy vs reality thing.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
OOO I forgot, If I pull the trigger in real life, you don't respawn, you're physically dead.
If I click the mouse and pop your ship, you're not dead, you can come back and try to return the favour, alternatively you can cry in local and refill my tear tank. Even if I pod you, you respawn in a clone vat, you're not dead, just mildly inconvenienced.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Actually wow, does Defcon reward you for successfully launching against population centers? That's a really immoral game. Rise of Nations rewards you for launching a nuclear strike at opponents that are still using the bow and arrow
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12742
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Irrelevant, again. Neither of your examples deal with computer games, both are experiments designed to see how people act under stress and in potential REAL LIFE situations.
When we're actually immortal, living in another universe, and can fly spaceships with our brains then you can use real life experiments such as those to illustrate a point.
Try harder.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12756
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:More grandiose prattle to feed the posters sense of self importance The only bad thing about Eve is that people like you are allowed to play it.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12778
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Especially for the people banging on about how you act in a game is a reflection on how you act in life.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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