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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
131
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Posted - 2013.08.30 04:41:00 -
[151] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Now you're really reaching.
Do you know any really bad people, Jonah Gravenstein? What do they tell you about why they are bad? What does their "morality" look like? Don't you think they have justifications for the bad things they do, and don't you think those justifications look a hell of a lot like some of yours? Why are they "bad" but the people in EVE are "just playing"?
I almost think EVE players are worse, because they only do it because they know they face little/no real world consequence. At least a real murderer takes a real risk, faces a real loss.
BTW, I'm in Osmon, if you feel like ganking me. I can ship down to a Retriever if you need. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:41:00 -
[152] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: So would you say that his text was immoral? Maybe evil even?
I would say it was idiotic, over exaggerated, ill considered and offensive. Some may well consider it immoral, I won't make that judgement as it was clearly a comparison designed to elicit an emotional response.
TL;DR It was a deliberate troll, and I fell for it.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
464
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:42:00 -
[153] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Well you could say his morality offends you using a virtual extension of the game? No?
I mean he seems to have gotten an emotional response out of you. His comparison was in no way moral, he compared a video game to racism, sexual assault, war crimes and substance abuse. Three of them are amongst the foulest things you can do to other human beings, two of them have a long lasting physical and mental effect on the victims, the third has the potential to do so. Depriving someone of pixels in a game, that incidentally, is all about conflict and power is in no way comparable. So would you say that his text was immoral? Maybe evil even? I would say it was idiotic, over exaggerated, ill considered and offensive. Some may well consider it immoral, I consider it stupidity.
You didn't answer the question... Was it wrong for him to say it? "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:45:00 -
[154] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: You didn't answer the question... Was it wrong for him to say it?
Right and wrong don't come into it, it was a troll, specifically designed to offend.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
464
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:51:00 -
[155] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote: You didn't answer the question... Was it wrong for him to say it?
Right and wrong don't come into it, it was a troll, specifically designed to offend. But yes it was wrong to use such a comparison, not because of morals, but because of the nature of what he compares the destruction of pixels to.
So its neither right nor wrong to troll?
Shouldn't it be wrong to troll?
But anyways, aren't you offended by the troll because it offends your morality of the comparisons?
And if you are offended doesn't that mean that there is some right and wrong in forums which is an extension of EVE? "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 04:58:00 -
[156] - Quote
Of course it's a troll, this is General Discussion.
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMUZRcoBZro (wow that's pretty hilarious, thanks youtube)
Totally not contentless posting. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12729
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Now you're really reaching. Do you know any really bad people, Jonah Gravenstein? What do they tell you about why they are bad? What does their "morality" look like? Don't you think they have justifications for the bad things they do, and don't you think those justifications look a hell of a lot like some of yours? Why are they "bad" but the people in EVE are "just playing"? You don't appear to be able to separate reality from fantasy, I suggest you get that checked out, it's a common symptom of mental illness. Eve is a fantasy, the same as every other game, as well as films and books, they're entertainment, an escape from the reality of life.
Quote:I almost think EVE players are worse, because they only do it because they know they face little/no real world consequence. At least a real murderer takes a real risk, faces a real loss. Once again, it's a fantasy world, an escape from the drudgery of reality. The punishment fits the crime, murdering someone in real life is very different from exploding someone in an internet spaceships game.
Quote:BTW, I'm in Osmon, if you feel like ganking me. I can ship down to a Retriever if you need. Why would I do it when you're expecting it? It's much more fun for me to do it in 6 months time when you're not.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:06:00 -
[158] - Quote
I think he wants to try The Mittani for imperialist colonialization, illegal occupation, slavekeeping and genocide for this multiple wars of aggression in the eve online universe. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:07:00 -
[159] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Quote:BTW, I'm in Osmon, if you feel like ganking me. I can ship down to a Retriever if you need. Why would I do it when you're expecting it? It's much more fun for me to do it in 6 months time when you're not. Yeah, plus if he's gonna ship "down" from his deadspace fit, meta upgrades hulk, it's not as good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIyVlseRmVc more content, trippy colors on this There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12730
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:09:00 -
[160] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
So its neither right nor wrong to troll?
Shouldn't it be wrong to troll?
I'm indifferent to be honest, a little annoyed at myself for getting caught by it, but that's life.
Quote:But anyways, aren't you offended by the troll because it offends your morality of the comparisons?
And if you are offended doesn't that mean that there is some right and wrong in forums which is an extension of EVE? I'm offended because of the magnitude, not the morality, of what was used for comparison, it's as simple as that. If he had used for example a so called "victimless crime", such as embezzlement or something that would normally be covered by insurance, that would have been non offensive.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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Tauranon
Weeesearch
235
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:10:00 -
[161] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
No, you are suggesting that we leave our morality (which is an inseparable part of who we are) at the login screen. And that would be fine and possible, if the actions that we took in-game had no external effect. But for whatever reason, the actions in-game obviously do have external effects. That is the reason we play the game at all.
Your suggestion is analagous to dressing up in a gorilla suit and beating someone to death, then taking off the suit and expecting not to be judged for your actions because, after all, you were a gorilla. We are suggesting that, no, you're a murderer.
It's possible to just play the game and still hurt someone's feelings, just like it's possible to just play ice hockey and still break someone's leg, but if you asked most ice hockey players, I'd bet most of them would tell you they'd rather lose the game than break their opponent's leg. They would put their moral integrity above winning the game. And, even rarer than someone willing to break another person's leg to win would be someone who was willing to LOSE so long as they were able to break someone elses' leg. Similarly, when you pay effort, time, money, ISK, etc. in EVE in the hope of just ruining someone's game, that is a moral decision.
To justify our behavior with "It's just a game." is no more noble or defensible than "She deserved it." or "Blacks/Jews/women/etc. aren't our equals." or "It was a war." or even "I was drunk.". What happens in Vegas DOES NOT actually stay in Vegas.
My word you missed the point of the game. In EVE you are your personal policeman. The point to a simulation is that the only hurt you can actually suffer in it is timeloss when your sandcastle gets knocked down because you weren't good at being your personal policeman, and other players are very definitely able to play as tyrants or pirates without that being any sort of moral issue whatsoever. The game would literally fail at providing you the opportunity to be your personal policeman, if it didn't in fact allow and encourage piracy and tyrants.
It amuses me no end, that in reality WoW allows timeservers with no ability whatsoever to raid and collect purples, yet the same nohopers can't get past the first lowsec gate, simply because the monsters on the other side are run by humans.
The value of anything I do in low or null, is largely set by the fact that people can't handle the human difficulty of low and null, and that wouldn't at all be so if there weren't pirates, corps who hold space as private and tyrants. The game would have mudflation died years ago, everything you hold in the game as valuable, whatever, its all context because of people who shoot other peoples ships. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
464
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:15:00 -
[162] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:
So its neither right nor wrong to troll?
Shouldn't it be wrong to troll?
I'm indifferent to be honest, a little annoyed at myself for getting caught by it, but that's life. Quote:But anyways, aren't you offended by the troll because it offends your morality of the comparisons?
And if you are offended doesn't that mean that there is some right and wrong in forums which is an extension of EVE? I'm offended because of the magnitude, not the morality, of what was used for comparison, it's as simple as that. If he had used for example a so called "victimless crime", such as embezzlement or something that would normally be covered by insurance, that would have been non offensive.
Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:25:00 -
[163] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I'm offended because of the magnitude, not the morality, of what was used for comparison, it's as simple as that. If he had used for example a so called "victimless crime", such as embezzlement or something that would normally be covered by insurance, that would have been non offensive. Someone who gets ganked would get the insurance, if they had insured their ship.... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8652
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:25:00 -
[164] - Quote
I scam people in EVE, yes, but that doesn't mean that I'd do the same in real life. Why? Because you can literally lose everything in EVE but it doesn't matter after you log off.
Stop trying to project people's actions in a game to what they would do in RL. It's stupid. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:26:00 -
[165] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:It amuses me no end, that in reality WoW allows timeservers with no ability whatsoever to raid and collect purples, yet the same nohopers can't get past the first lowsec gate, simply because the monsters on the other side are run by humans.
The value of anything I do in low or null, is largely set by the fact that people can't handle the human difficulty of low and null, and that wouldn't at all be so if there weren't pirates, corps who hold space as private and tyrants. The game would have mudflation died years ago, everything you hold in the game as valuable, whatever, its all context because of people who shoot other peoples ships. Can't wait for another random officer fitted missioning ship killmail. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:31:00 -
[166] - Quote
Andski wrote:I scam people in EVE, yes, but that doesn't mean that I'd do the same in real life. Why? Because you can literally lose everything in EVE but it doesn't matter after you log off.
Stop trying to project people's actions in a game to what they would do in RL. It's stupid. But your ~tears~ cried over the internet space pixel, they are real. Eve is real I was there getting that security deposit you dam spai There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
464
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:31:00 -
[167] - Quote
Andski wrote:I scam people in EVE, yes, but that doesn't mean that I'd do the same in real life. Why? Because you can literally lose everything in EVE but it doesn't matter after you log off.
Stop trying to project people's actions in a game to what they would do in RL. It's stupid.
Personally I've never said that and continue to say that doing evil things in EVE is not equatable to doing real evil things in real life because there are real life consequences most of the time.
I'm just saying that it is somewhat evil.
Why are you so afraid of saying "I am an evil player and I'm OK with it."?
Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead? "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:32:00 -
[168] - Quote
My internet space pixel loss made me cry, I was forced to reevaluate my position of humanity in an internet space pixel environment.
This is terrible, and I have to navigate our terrible killboard to post for reimbursement. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:33:00 -
[169] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You don't appear to be able to separate reality from fantasy, I suggest you get that checked out, it's a common symptom of mental illness. Eve is a fantasy, the same as every other game, as well as films and books, they're entertainment, an escape from the reality of life.
I'll take that as a "No, Mayhaw Morgan, I don't actually know any people who society or I personally would classify as 'bad'.".
OK, so, if you don't have anyone to compare EVE players to, then how can you say one way or another that we are not being 'bad' by the things we do in game? You are speculating that our actions as players are devoid of moral significance, but you cannot say for certain because you have never seen an immoral decision in action. i.e. YOU are the one living in a fantasy world, where this mythical concept called "evil" exists in some far away place, committed by people who are completely unlike yourself and your friends. You have never actually looked at the WHY of a robbery or an assault or a homicide or even just someone littering. Therefore, you cannot say that it is in any way different than the decision to sit on a gate in low sec and just attack the first random person who comes through.
Does the idea of being an "evil" person or of playing with "evil" people bother you in some sense? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12735
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:36:00 -
[170] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.
Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego?
I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:36:00 -
[171] - Quote
Feel bad, you are bad! There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8654
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:37:00 -
[172] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss in EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead?
Because getting hung up over losing an imaginary spaceship is dumb Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:37:00 -
[173] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote: Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.
Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego? I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way. Politicians don't violate your sense or morality, eh.
That's reaching a bit, surely. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:38:00 -
[174] - Quote
Andski wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss in EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead? Because getting hung up over losing an imaginary spaceship is dumb Why watch TV when DBRB is much better entertainment? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
464
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:40:00 -
[175] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote: Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.
Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego? I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way.
Yes but in his instance he compared you to morally questionable activities. he didn't insult you, but rather compared you to certain people who did immoral things. If you didn't think those activities were immoral, I don't think you would have gotten upset. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
464
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:41:00 -
[176] - Quote
Andski wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss in EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead? Because getting hung up over losing an imaginary spaceship is dumb
Ok. If you don't mind losing your ships, then you should contract your remaining ones over to me as you don't care about them.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4247
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 05:42:00 -
[177] - Quote
Eve online general discussion, actually a honeypot being watched by the thought police. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12740
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:08:00 -
[178] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote: Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.
Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego? I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way. Yes but in his instance he compared you to morally questionable activities. he didn't insult you, but rather compared you to certain people who did immoral things. If you didn't think those activities were immoral, I don't think you would have gotten upset. He trivialised some pretty offensive, and yes I'll admit it morally wrong acts, so that he could compare them to violence in a computer game. I found the trivialisation extremely offensive, if he had trivialised 9/11, 7/7 or WWI & II to the same extent I would have been just as offended.
Alavaria Fera wrote: Politicians don't violate your sense of morality, eh.
That's reaching a bit, surely.
You got me there. Game, set and match.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4248
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:10:00 -
[179] - Quote
Taking some space pixels away by means of 1400mm Howitzer Artillery turrets is like taking a life.
Stealing some space pixels is like ravaging a, well you know.
When you shoot a non-blue, it's like, well you also know, ~profiling~ or something There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12740
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 06:15:00 -
[180] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Taking some space pixels away by means of 1400mm Howitzer Artillery turrets is like taking a life.
Stealing some space pixels is like ravaging a, well you know.
When you shoot a non-blue, it's like, well you also know, ~profiling~ or something Don't forget, invading someone else's space makes you literally a tinpot failed house painter with a funny 'tache and a dodgy haircut.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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