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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
679
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Posted - 2013.09.01 16:50:00 -
[91] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote: Yes ECCM is only useful versus ECM. Like shields are only useful versus damage and not webifiers. That isn't an argument. Its a statement of fact. Your misunderstanding of the difference and assumption there is a problem with it demonstrates precisely my point about you being unqualified to be in this discussion.
Sure, shield is only useful versus damage. We're talking about PVP here right ?
In PVP, do you get shot at often ? Yes, very often.
In PVP, do you see ECM ships often ? Not really. If you do, you can avoid them if you chose to and if you're competent enough to.
I'm pretty sure I don't even need to go farther, you'll understand by yourself, if you can, why there is a problem with fitting ECCMs to counter drones that every ship can carry.
Also, why are ECM drones multispectral ? Wouldn't it be more complex and deep and all that with specific, racial drones ? I'm sure it would. Considering the fact that you like things that are complex and stuff, racial drones should please you very much. I mean, 4 kinds of ECM drones instead of just one multispec sounds GREAT, right ? |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
425
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Posted - 2013.09.01 16:55:00 -
[92] - Quote
Here's a question for you. Why do you feel entitled to reprieve from ECM and that you have a right to only use a mod when you absolutely know youll need it instead of planning for the unexpected?
And yes you really should stop. I say that as to grant mercy. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
679
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Posted - 2013.09.01 17:02:00 -
[93] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Are you already starting the moving of the goalpost again? I'm growing bored.
Here's a question for you. Why do you feel entitled to reprieve from ECM and that you have a right to only use a mod when you absolutely know youll need it instead of planning for the unexpected?
See, I fit tracking computers even if I don't know if I'm going to encounter Pilgrims, Curses, Arbitrators, Crucifiers or Sentinels. I do because it actually brings something useful to the ship.
I fit capboosters on some of my ships even if I don't know if I'm going to encounter neuting ships. It will still have some value no matter what.
I would fit ECCM if it did bring some value to my ship when I'm not getting jammed. Like a scan res boost or something similar. But it doesn't. When I'm not getting jammed, it is 100% useless.
Which is why I don't fit ECCMs unless I know what I'm up against.
What's specific to ECM is the fact that ECM drones are actually powerful, powerful enough that you have to defend against them.
And as you already know, you can carry those drones in every ship in EVE.
ECM ships have specific flaws, like their very low tank, the fact that they dedicate their whole ship to jamming and such.
With ECM drones, it just doesn't work. A Machariel with ECM drones will jam me like an Ishkur with ECM drones would.
And there is no piloting solution to that either.
You can protect yourself from neuts with range. You can protect yourself from webs/scramblers the same way. You can mitigate a bit the effect of a tracking disruptor by keeping a low transversal. You can mitigate a bit the effect of a target painter by maximizing your transversal and hope for the best, or just leave the hostiles' weapons range.
None of that works against ECM. You absolutly need a module that only works in that specific situation, else you can't do anything. You can't shoot, you can't tackle, you can't rep, you can't give order to drones. And if you have the module fitted and no one tries to jam you, you have one 100% wasted slot.
That is where the imbalance is. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
425
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Posted - 2013.09.01 17:10:00 -
[94] - Quote
I 2 am disappoint that my shields only work versus damage and not against webifiers.
For as big a problem as you claim ecm drones to be you'd think you'd never leave home without them or with defense against them.
So is it that you do encounter ecm drones all the time and refuse to equip eccm or are you making a big deal of an occasional nuisance in which you feel justified in ignoring in almost all situations? |
Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
232
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Posted - 2013.09.01 18:29:00 -
[95] - Quote
I've been in hundreds of solo fights, and ECM drones are enough of a problem that I fit at least one smartbomb on every brawling ship larger than a destroyer unless I know ahead of time that my opponent isn't carrying ECM drones.
Meanwhile, a set of light ECM drones occupies the first 25 m^3 of drone bay in nearly every fit.
Totally not OP. |
Baggo Hammers
49
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Posted - 2013.09.01 18:33:00 -
[96] - Quote
Shammys are OP!! Oh wait.... If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
739
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Posted - 2013.09.01 19:28:00 -
[97] - Quote
wowyouareacow wrote:They are WAY more powerful than damage ones in a solo or small gang engagement. I can understand EWAR that reduces damage/lock speed etc, but totally disabling your opponent for as long as ECM does is overpowered. ablooablooabloo...
Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
739
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Posted - 2013.09.01 21:34:00 -
[98] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:None of that works against ECM. You absolutly need a module that only works in that specific situation, else you can't do anything. You can't shoot, you can't tackle, you can't rep, you can't give order to drones. And if you have the module fitted and no one tries to jam you, you have one 100% wasted slot.
That is where the imbalance is. You complain that ECM is OP and that ECM drones are OP - yet you refuse to fit the *ONE* mod that will fix that.
It's true. You can't fix stupid. Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
SpoonRECKLESS
Caldari Provisions
23
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Posted - 2013.09.02 02:08:00 -
[99] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I have never actually seen them work.
And every time I find wrecks, if there's ECM drones there's 5 of them just sitting there. Further evidence that they didn't work.
^^^This. Every time I ever used ecms they never work. Blue
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4266
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Posted - 2013.09.02 02:09:00 -
[100] - Quote
Clearly the answer is drone assist doctrines. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
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Stahl Rise
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2013.09.02 07:45:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:I'll take this opportunity to again shamelessly shill this idea of my.
+1
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1181
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Posted - 2013.09.02 09:30:00 -
[102] - Quote
Don Purple wrote:I have never seen ecm drones get off more than one or two good bursts before they are useless. Confirming I see them next to a lot of wrecks as well.
They're always OP when they get a jam cycle, when they get none = "lol noub, owned ya" *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Skurja Volpar
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
58
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Posted - 2013.09.02 10:11:00 -
[103] - Quote
Maybe just buff all the other ewar drones to the point where they're at least mildly competitive.
Could even free up some mid slots for an ECCM. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
679
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Posted - 2013.09.02 10:30:00 -
[104] - Quote
Skurja Volpar wrote:Maybe just buff all the other ewar drones to the point where they're at least mildly competitive.
Could even free up some mid slots for an ECCM.
If they introduce Warp Disrupting drones then yeah why not.
And then everyone who tries to prove me that Warp Disrupting drones are OP, I'll just answer "Fit smartbombs, fit warp core stabs" and all kind of stupid solutions until he gets bored and doesn't want to argue anymore. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
358
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Posted - 2013.09.02 10:40:00 -
[105] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Skurja Volpar wrote:Maybe just buff all the other ewar drones to the point where they're at least mildly competitive.
Could even free up some mid slots for an ECCM. If they introduce Warp Disrupting drones then yeah why not. And then everyone who tries to prove me that Warp Disrupting drones are OP, I'll just answer "Fit smartbombs, fit warp core stabs" and all kind of stupid solutions until he gets bored and doesn't want to argue anymore. Make warp core stabs not have a debilitating effect and you might have a start. However the Opportunity cost is already major in low slots then the penalties for warp core stabs are simply over the top. Additionally smart bombs can't be used without disabling safeties meaning it's to easy too generate ganks using cloaky alts with smart bombs, since smart bombs really are utterly dumb. So, great for null blobs I'm sure your thoughts are, but the world of EVE is more than Null blob warfare. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
679
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Posted - 2013.09.02 11:46:00 -
[106] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Make warp core stabs not have a debilitating effect and you might have a start.
Make ECCM not be completely useless when not being jammed and we might have a start. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
741
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Posted - 2013.09.02 16:05:00 -
[107] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Make warp core stabs not have a debilitating effect and you might have a start.
Make ECCM not be completely useless when not being jammed and we might have a start. You're the one complaining about how ubiquitous ecm drones are - yet refuse to take the necessary precautions against them.
A little note from CCP for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3360
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Posted - 2013.09.02 17:24:00 -
[108] - Quote
It's said that ECM drones "take no slots" as in an implication that they are OP.
Sort of.
First, if you use less than 5 ECM drones, you really screw the pooch. Might as well be taking some spark plugs out of your car too to get an idea of how effective that is.
This means that a ship relying on drones for DPS is taking a huge hit, more so than a ship losing a mid slot to ECCM.
So while you can say that a ship sacrifices mid slots to ECM drones that the ship fielding the drones didn't have to lose a mid slot for, the use of the ECM drones, doing no damage, is like sacrificing some number of high slots.
Now consider that DPS is tank in many cases. Being able to remove DPS from the field is one way to tank. A risky way, and depends on a lot of things NOT happening. It's as much a gamble as speed tanking. If you speed tank, being webbed and scrammed is death. If you DPS tank, being jammed (and scrammed) is death.
Now we should also consider further that ECM drones only come in one size. This too is a huge headache. Take the Cyclone for example. a 50m drone bay. if you are up to skills on drones and use 5x medium scouts you get significant DPS especially with a low slot going for a drone damage module. Use a drone link computer in the mids to make them faster and you can extend the range (lest you have to abandon them or keep them within 20KM at all times because they are slow compared to lights).
But in the case with 50 and 60 meter drone pays, if you want to use 5 ECMs, you're done. In a Cyclone or comparable drone bay hull the use of ECM drones means you go to 5x light combat and 5x ECM. Good flexibility yes, but your DPS just took a huge hit. You can tweak the speed of mediums, with good rigging and/or skills, and get considerable DPS, but in a case like this, you have to drop to light drones because you want ECM drones and now YOUR ship will be the only one taking damage from ECM drones because the DPS drop costs against the DPS as tank factor leaving smaller ships in the field to do more damage to your own ship.
If you are using a ship that has 25m or less, then you just tossed drone DPS completely and ECM drones in such a ship is a "travel fit". But there you can go ahead and "sacrifice" a mid slot to an ECM module and have drone DPS back, and a small ship fielding 5 lights with the same support modules and skills is a killer. So here we see the converse case where using a mid slot INSTEAD of ECM drones can be the advantage.
So when you really take time to think about this sort of thing, OP is not as OP as one originally figures.
Still it's a good point though that none of the other electronic attacks have such a permanent lock up feature. There's much rage to be seen in people getting perma-jammead in Guristas complexes, and even more frustration to be seen in PVP where you don't even get off a shot. Still damage drones and FOF *could* help if people would not be afraid to use them, but this is a matter of now being concerned about being laughed at by someone who blew up your ship anyway. (somewhat contradictory at best) or being afraid at what Battle Clinic trolls might say. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
298
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Posted - 2013.09.02 19:42:00 -
[109] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:What's so bad about ECM drones?
A year... 2 years ago maybe - I'd probably laugh at this but now? Sensor skills + fitting against the stuff puts them on par with their counterparts.
They aren't that big a deal anymore and many recommendations on fittings, which once held ECM drones as the only ones to pack, don't do so anymore. (such as Celestis EW boat - be a BB wannabe- pack lock scripted damps & ECM drones so 'you too can try and be ECM EW!' -- much less of this these days. ) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
358
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Posted - 2013.09.02 20:01:00 -
[110] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Make warp core stabs not have a debilitating effect and you might have a start.
Make ECCM not be completely useless when not being jammed and we might have a start. Oh, I'm on board with that idea. Unlike the others. |
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General Guardian
The Guardian Knights Lost Obsession
55
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Posted - 2013.09.02 23:12:00 -
[111] - Quote
I once had a 1v2 in low sec and wasn't excited when the both launched ec drones. I got jammed, grrrr'd and one of them blew up under gate gun fire (forgot how to warp out?) I lold and the jams fell off so I blapped the other one.
ECM drones aren't Always bad?
I still think our ships sensor strength should increase over time (compensate) while ecm mods are active on the ship, the more ecm active the faster it increases. Meaning ecm effectiveness reduced over time, ecm pilots would need to switch targets now and then and wait for ships sensor strengths to drop back down to normal |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4271
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:50:00 -
[112] - Quote
Maybe if one of them was a falcon instead. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2308
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:38:00 -
[113] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again!
I think the problem is not that ECM is too powerful. I actually prefer to use damage drones over ECM drones almost always and I'm not even flying in bigger fleets where ECM drones get worse. The problem is just that the mechanic is punishing for both the victim and the perpetrator. The combination of chance-based success along with a very harsh binary effect makes it miserable for both sides (unless you like griefing, which a lot of people do of course =).
Rather than adjust the power level I'd love to rework the mechanic so that its more fun to use and fly against. Maybe someday! You can say it as often as you like, youre still wrong.
That said, your solution method is correct: the entire mechanic needs to be changed to not be so absurdly horrible and overpowered.
EC drones need to go in their current form, they are truly awful. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
428
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 08:25:00 -
[114] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again!
I think the problem is not that ECM is too powerful. I actually prefer to use damage drones over ECM drones almost always and I'm not even flying in bigger fleets where ECM drones get worse. The problem is just that the mechanic is punishing for both the victim and the perpetrator. The combination of chance-based success along with a very harsh binary effect makes it miserable for both sides (unless you like griefing, which a lot of people do of course =).
Rather than adjust the power level I'd love to rework the mechanic so that its more fun to use and fly against. Maybe someday! You can say it as often as you like, youre still wrong. That said, your solution method is correct: the entire mechanic needs to be changed to not be so absurdly horrible and overpowered. EC drones need to go in their current form, they are truly awful.
Too bad most players are Caldari and Caldari ships are largely based around ECM. You can say different as often as you'd like but ECM isn't fundamentally changing.
Maybe someday! |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
806
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:25:00 -
[115] - Quote
why is this thread still here...go lay it to rest in Features& Ideas or somewhere... If you nerf drones then...Suddenly Falcon Alt If you nerf Falcon Alt then...suddenly Arazu Alt and kiting the **** out of you its hilarious...
Edit: Always have the right Alt (trained in all factional cruisers e.g.)
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
9852
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:54:00 -
[116] - Quote
This thread is going places You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |
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