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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:40:00 -
[91] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Yea, because if you are referring to Miniluv...they are well known as a subsection of Goons. Try again. Actually Miniluv is open to the whole CFC last I checked. Except for Li3 & FCON because their leadership are stupid. We should reset them.
Hey......more space to rent |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12789
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:44:00 -
[92] - Quote
Still waiting for an answer from Infinity Ziona on how likely a naval anti piracy operation being close to a ship threatened by pirates is, in an area that's 67% of the size of Europe.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0.
I stipulated with a reasonable number of people; I also assumed you understood profit/person is the relevant figure.
Quote:just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed.
Is getting 30 people to warp and hit F1 supposed to be an impressive feat?
Quote:actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix.
How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b.
That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk.
Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr?
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KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:48:00 -
[94] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b.
That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk.
Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr?
There is risk. Loss of security status. Lose enough of it and you are barred from high sec. |
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:49:00 -
[95] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr? Considering other activities make more isk/hour for less cost. Perhaps you'd like to argue why it isn't? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12789
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:50:00 -
[96] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0. I stipulated with a reasonable number of people; I also assumed you understood profit/person is the relevant figure. Quote:just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed. Is getting 30 people to warp and hit F1 supposed to be an impressive feat? Quote:actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix. How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b. That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk. Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr? There's a 50/50 risk of the loot fairy saying "screw you *******", taking costs, and the chance of the loot fairy being nasty into account, the income is at best 65 million an hour, the same as blitzing level 4 missions which carry a far smaller risk.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:52:00 -
[97] - Quote
Fact is, he can't argue. It is not the problem of CCP, that you do not have the corp support or the option to multibox a fleet to convoy his goods.
MULTIPLAYER GAME MULTIPLAYER GAME MULTIPLAYER GAME
Start repeating it as a mantra....you'll get there.....eventually. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16255
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:54:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Yes? And? Cost is not a balancing factor, and 17 > 1. So what's the problem?
Quote:Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). Yes? And? Cost is still not a balancing factor, and 25 > 1, so this is exactly how it should be.
Quote:Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. This is already the case. The best way of surviving is to ensure that it's too costly for the gankers to attack you.
Quote:They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself. No, they absolutely must not. The last time CCP tried to balance according to cost, we got Titans GÇö a ship that causes balance problems to this day. They have since learned the single truth about ship balancing: cost is not a balancing factor, and requiring equal cost for a kill is as idiotic an idea as they come because it means that bigger is always better; that small ships have no reason to exist; and that there is no way for the little guy to ever beat the big guy. It only ever creates horrible gameplay without any semblance of balance.
You can use 0 ISK worth of ships to destroy any other ship in the game. This is as it should be. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:54:00 -
[99] - Quote
I'm still trying to figure out why it's an issue at all; if you're worried about being shot pay the laughably low price that RF or push ask and get them to take the risk; and should they fumble you did set your collateral properly right?
actually, i don't think i've ever seen a red frog or push pilot make a thread about freighter ganking. fancy that. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:57:00 -
[100] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I'm still trying to figure out why it's an issue at all; if you're worried about being shot pay the laughably low price that RF or push ask and get them to take the risk; and should they fumble you did set your collateral properly right?
actually, i don't think i've ever seen a red frog or push pilot make a thread about freighter ganking. fancy that.
Because they actually know what they are doing? Lmfao. |
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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:59:00 -
[101] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr? Considering other activities make more isk/hour for less cost. Perhaps you'd like to argue why it isn't?
Name one and I'll explain why it's not the same.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:There's a 50/50 risk of the loot fairy saying "screw you pirate scum", taking costs, and the chance of the loot fairy being nasty into account, the income is at best 65 million per person per hour,
Drop rate was already accounted for, 130m/hr.
Quote:the same as blitzing level 4 missions which carry a far smaller risk.
Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:02:00 -
[102] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up.
Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:02:00 -
[103] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:S Byerley wrote:
Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up.
Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now.
Oh, and no ammo. Just sentries. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:03:00 -
[104] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Because they actually know what they are doing? Lmfao.
RF loses freighters just like everyone else; they don't show up on kill boards because only the admins are actually in the corp. Plastic wrap does tend to be less attractive though. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
54
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:04:00 -
[105] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank loaded with trit.
Off all the ways to make isk in EVE freighter ganking is one of the worst. Of all the interesting things to do in EVE freighter ganking is one of the least fun. You have to find a bunch of other people willing to wait around for hours to find one worth ganking.
So poor isk/hour low fun involves herding a bunch of people with low boredom thresholds.
= almost no one does this
and almost all the ones that do pick the low hanging fruit (autopiloters) or the loot pinata (5+ bill cargo).
i also heard a rumour that jump freighters can jump out if a cyno alt is ready for them.
Please please stop making this same thread over and over.
If it were a real problem red frog wouldn't move my stuff so cheaply. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:05:00 -
[106] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Because they actually know what they are doing? Lmfao. RF loses freighters just like everyone else; they don't show up on kill boards because only the admins are actually in the corp. Plastic wrap does tend to be less attractive though.
Then you just solved your problem. Double wrap your items with a courier contract alt. |
Dave Stark
3406
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:05:00 -
[107] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Name one and I'll explain why it's not the same. no, explain to me why ganking freighters should be worth less than other activities that involve less cost? please, i'm interested in why we should negatively change an already sub par way of making isk.
i'm intrigued as to why making something worse is a good idea even though it's clearly not out of line in any way. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:05:00 -
[108] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now.
You blitz missions in a MJD domi? How's that working out for you? ISK/hr wise. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12790
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:08:00 -
[109] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Drop rate was already accounted for, 130m/hr. Quote:the same as blitzing level 4 missions which carry a far smaller risk. Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up. Fair enough, 130million/hr, blitzing level 4 missions still carries less risk than suicide ganking, if you lose a 1 billion isk ship to NPCs that's your own fault.
65million is an average, some people claim to be able to earn 100m/hr+ by blitzing. I run 4's in a BC because I dislike BS's, I also loot and salvage, even though I mission in an inefficient manner 40+ million an hour is easy. If I was blitzing them in a 1 billion isk ship, and subcontracting the cleanup to Prosynergy, I would expect to pull in somewhere in the region of 80 to 100 million isk + the income from the loot and salvage.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:09:00 -
[110] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. |
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Dave Stark
3406
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:11:00 -
[111] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there.
And yet the miner who mines 5 trillion isk worth of minerals has had 0 isk in losses.
I think there's a slight imbalance there, too. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:13:00 -
[112] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now. You blitz missions in a MJD domi? How's that working out for you? ISK/hr wise.
Well, considering I will only run missions if I absolutely have to, I do just fine. Point is, what you are saying is irrelevant. A billion isk ship is not necessary to run missions efficiently. Knowing how to pilot a ship makes the missioning effective. So minimal risk vs. 45+ an hour blitzing, and significantly more if I choose to farm only the most lucrative missions across a couple of constellations. It's called thinking outside the narrow view that you cannot seem to escape from.
Here. I will place the tear jar down here. Fill it up as you see fit. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16255
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:13:00 -
[113] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. A 10:1 ROI for a carefully chosen application of ships and skills? Seems fairly reasonable. Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12790
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:14:00 -
[114] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. So Goons have 90% efficiency on suicide ganks? Impressive.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:16:00 -
[115] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there.
You heard wrong. 5 trillion in kills is not 5 trillion in profits. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
237
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:17:00 -
[116] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0. I stipulated with a reasonable number of people; I also assumed you understood profit/person is the relevant figure. Quote:just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed. Is getting 30 people to warp and hit F1 supposed to be an impressive feat? Quote:actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix. How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b. That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk. Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr?
#1 - if you gank a freighter with 2bil in it, the average drop is 1bil, the minimal drop is 0. if the freighter has 1 pile in it, the average drop won't happen, the drop will be a dice roll on nil or full, and such things can streak nil..
#2 - destroyer ganks need to bump the freighter away from the gate guns. I had a thrasher shoot a frigate of mine once, and the thrasher was vaporized before I even reacted. ie even if you do make 130m, you will be stuffing around for some time to make it happen. (waiting assembled for right target, scout account, bumping time).
#3 - many people just fly to jita, when jita may well be on the other side of niarja or uedama. Sometimes you can in fact sort your logistics out so that you do not need to fly through the choke systems (ie my freighter typically flies 2 jumps).
#4 - a max cargo viator full of 425mm railguns is very hard to intercept outside of null or badly chosen stations, aligns and warps quickly and carries a surprising amount of minerals. ie for some scales of tasks, its an option, and it can also move higher value stuff, so not all your eggs are in your freighter basket. orca can do similar if you need to extract from a station that has danger.
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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:19:00 -
[117] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.
They do when they feel like it? Too much ISK makes people pursue more varied activities. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12790
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:19:00 -
[118] - Quote
Tauranon wrote: #1 - if you gank a freighter with 2bil in it, the average drop is 1bil, the minimal drop is 0. if the freighter has 1 pile in it, the average drop won't happen, the drop will be a dice roll on nil or full, and such things can streak nil..
#2 - destroyer ganks need to bump the freighter away from the gate guns. I had a thrasher shoot a frigate of mine once, and the thrasher was vaporized before I even reacted. ie even if you do make 130m, you will be stuffing around for some time to make it happen. (waiting assembled for right target, scout account, bumping time).
#3 - many people just fly to jita, when jita may well be on the other side of niarja or uedama. Sometimes you can in fact sort your logistics out so that you do not need to fly through the choke systems (ie my freighter typically flies 2 jumps).
#4 - a max cargo viator full of 425mm railguns is very hard to intercept outside of null or badly chosen stations, aligns and warps quickly and carries a surprising amount of minerals. ie for some scales of tasks, its an option, and it can also move higher value stuff, so not all your eggs are in your freighter basket. orca can do similar if you need to extract from a station that has danger.
Thought and effort, both of which are foreign to a lot of players
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:21:00 -
[119] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.
They do when they feel like it? Too much ISK makes people pursue more varied activities.
You are yet to name anyone that actually ganks freighters every 20 minutes. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:22:00 -
[120] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Tauranon wrote: #1 - if you gank a freighter with 2bil in it, the average drop is 1bil, the minimal drop is 0. if the freighter has 1 pile in it, the average drop won't happen, the drop will be a dice roll on nil or full, and such things can streak nil..
#2 - destroyer ganks need to bump the freighter away from the gate guns. I had a thrasher shoot a frigate of mine once, and the thrasher was vaporized before I even reacted. ie even if you do make 130m, you will be stuffing around for some time to make it happen. (waiting assembled for right target, scout account, bumping time).
#3 - many people just fly to jita, when jita may well be on the other side of niarja or uedama. Sometimes you can in fact sort your logistics out so that you do not need to fly through the choke systems (ie my freighter typically flies 2 jumps).
#4 - a max cargo viator full of 425mm railguns is very hard to intercept outside of null or badly chosen stations, aligns and warps quickly and carries a surprising amount of minerals. ie for some scales of tasks, its an option, and it can also move higher value stuff, so not all your eggs are in your freighter basket. orca can do similar if you need to extract from a station that has danger.
Thought and effort, both of which are foreign to a lot of players
No kidding, we have literally spent quite some time bombarding logic in this direction. Logic Hardeners must be trained to V. |
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