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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12808
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:35:00 -
[211] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:Since hi-sec is so big, has so many people in it -and is (according to the whiners) 95% filled with gankers and griefers- I can't help but wonder where are the white knights?
Seems pretty easy to whine nonsensically about things like RL navies and EHP ratios while completely ignoring personal responsibility, or teamwork, things gankers are comfortable with.
Much easier to post a thread, start an argument, than actually do something. You think RL navies and coast guards are full of NPCs who fulfill their responsibilities because of code? No, they are full of real people who are there because they want to make a real difference.
If gankers are so prevalent, you should be able to provide content for dozens or hundreds of white knight types, patrolling the space lanes, ensuring evildoers get their just desserts (or some other polarized nonsense). Take some personal responsibility, would ya? Just for one moment, stop the flow of tears, adjust the whine down to a minimum, and use your brain. I've got a few amazing ideas perfectly suited for people looking to make hi-sec a 'safer' place; but if you're unwilling to use a webbing ship, a scout, or the smallest modicum of common sense, I'm willing to bet that is out of your reach.
Gankers=knowledgeable, connected people who organise together for a common goal
Freighter Victims=insular, unorganised, or ignorant players unwilling to work together or do anything to change their circumstance (and the occasional unlucky bastard I'm sure =)
Teamwork and collective effort is an unfamiliar concept to some people.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:39:00 -
[212] - Quote
Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP.
the gankers brought friends; why didn't the freighter? you can't say "it's not balanced" when you're talking about 1 player vs more than 1 player. a single web alt would have helped it run away, for example.
cost isn't a balancing factor, stop pretending that it is.
you don't have forever to scan it, at all, especially if it has webbing assistance.
a low risk activity that guarantees you the loss of your ship, and only a 50% chance on loot? and there's "low" risk? are you sure about that?
it makes no sense to buff freighter EHP, at all. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:40:00 -
[213] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:How about every time a cap ship is solo it reverts to 300,000 EHP. If it dies (cus it was ratting) its the pilots fault for not having remote reps, scouts, webbers and instantly deployables cyno alts. Are you implying ratting carriers don't get ganked? Im implying theyre a lot more survivable when they're ganked than a freighter in supposedly safer high sec.
oh, really? a ship designed for combat has more survivability than a ship designed to be an empty box with a warp drive?
tell me more about this clearly shocking revelation. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:41:00 -
[214] - Quote
I wonder how long 15 catalysts would last against a smartbombing battleship or two. Oh god. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:43:00 -
[215] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP. the gankers brought friends; why didn't the freighter? you can't say "it's not balanced" when you're talking about 1 player vs more than 1 player. a single web alt would have helped it run away, for example. cost isn't a balancing factor, stop pretending that it is. you don't have forever to scan it, at all, especially if it has webbing assistance. a low risk activity that guarantees you the loss of your ship, and only a 50% chance on loot? and there's "low" risk? are you sure about that? it makes no sense to buff freighter EHP, at all. Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:43:00 -
[216] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:I wonder how long 15 catalysts would last against a smartbombing battleship or two.
a catalyst has 3.9k ehp.
I'll let you do the math. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:44:00 -
[217] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed.
ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12808
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:44:00 -
[218] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Im implying theyre a lot more survivable when they're ganked than a freighter in supposedly safer high sec.
Statistically speaking, given the disparity of population numbers between highsec (80+% of characters) and everywhere else, highsec is a lot safer, unless of course you happen to be afk and/or in a loot pinata.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
I guess 2 battleships could easily alpha the whole fleet of Catalysts for roughly the same cost. Oh god. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
237
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:46:00 -
[220] - Quote
Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP.
Its a multiplayer pvp game. You consent to the risk of PVP the moment you undock. If you lose 1v15, then that is your fault. If you are 2v15, then chances of your survival greatly increase. It is highsec, not perfectsec.
You can reliably warp to 0 so one side of the gate is _very_ safe, on the other side, their bumper is not going to be on top of your freighter (on average he'll be several kms away), and you can own webs that can reach half across the gate sphere, and you get to choose when you freighter uncloaks - ie you can be within webrange at the instant your freighter appears.
By webbing your freighter its isk/hr picks up, ie the webber account is not an entirely dead overhead account either.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:49:00 -
[221] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:50:00 -
[222] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.
so you're making things up with no proof to back up your claims? sure thing.
again, price isn't a balancing factor. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:50:00 -
[223] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP. Its a multiplayer pvp game. You consent to the risk of PVP the moment you undock. If you lose 1v15, then that is your fault. If you are 2v15, then chances of your survival greatly increase. It is highsec, not perfectsec. You can reliably warp to 0 so one side of the gate is _very_ safe, on the other side, their bumper is not going to be on top of your freighter (on average he'll be several kms away), and you can own webs that can reach half across the gate sphere, and you get to choose when you freighter uncloaks - ie you can be within webrange at the instant your freighter appears. By webbing your freighter its isk/hr picks up, ie the webber account is not an entirely dead overhead account either.
Common sense, on my forums??!?!?
rage. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:51:00 -
[224] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.
Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12811
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:54:00 -
[225] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. It's an Infinity post, assume ill-informed troll until proved otherwise.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:55:00 -
[226] - Quote
anyone confirm/deny cost is and always was a balancing factor in eve |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3555
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:58:00 -
[227] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.
The Hulk costs more to produce than the Mackinaw, has far less survivability & performs only marginally better at it's task. You are again taking the statements of one CCP guy from nearly a decade ago & believing them to be more valid than the Devs who are working on EVE now. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:07:00 -
[228] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. You're confusing factor and product.
No, cost is not a factor in balance. It can never adjust an imbalance. Something that is crap remains crap no matter how cheap it is. Something that is overpowered remains overpowered no matter how expensive it is. Players will always grind the money required to get the overpowered stuff and will never waste money on junk. Forgetting this simple fact is how Titans came about: it was GǣokGǥ that they were massively OP because, hey, they cost so much that there would never be that many of themGǪ except that cost is not a factor in balance, so that high cost didn't stop them from being common as clovers.
What you're talking about is setting a cost or availability that is reasonable compared to how the ship is balanced. Balance determines cost, not the other way around.
On top of this, having learnt the lesson with titans, CCP has adopted a cost design where marginal improvements in ability come at exponential increases in cost or rarity, and that GÇ£abilityGÇ¥ does not really cross roles. Cruisers and barges do not exist on the same ability scale, so even though both are massively better than the other, depending on what you're comparing, there is no real connection between how much they cost. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:11:00 -
[229] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:14:00 -
[230] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. You're confusing factor and product. No, cost is not a factor in balance. It can never adjust an imbalance. Something that is crap remains crap no matter how cheap it is. Something that is overpowered remains overpowered no matter how expensive it is. Players will always grind the money required to get the overpowered stuff and will never waste money on junk. Forgetting this simple fact is how Titans came about: it was GǣokGǥ that they were massively OP because, hey, they cost so much that there would never be that many of themGǪ except that cost is not a factor in balance, so that high cost didn't stop them from being common as clovers. What you're talking about is setting a cost or availability that is reasonable compared to how the ship is balanced. Balance determines cost, not the other way around. On top of this, having learnt the lesson with titans, CCP has adopted a cost design where marginal improvements in ability come at exponential increases in cost or rarity, and that GǣabilityGǥ does not really cross roles. Cruisers and barges do not exist on the same ability scale, so even though both are massively better than the other, depending on what you're comparing, there is no real connection between how much they cost. There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. |
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Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:14:00 -
[231] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Eram Fidard wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.
nobody fails to see it; we're just pointing it out that cost isn't a balancing factor. |
IDGAD
Get in the van I have candy.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:16:00 -
[232] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:If killing freighters in highsec is so easy, why aren't more people doing it (no one has actually answered this yet). Freighters & JF's do have the ability to survive a suicide gank attempt but a good majority of the pilots would rather autopilot their giant cargohold through highsec & complain when the inevitable happens.
You claim that there is no risk for suicide gankers. This is wrong on so many levels.
Edit: Isk-tanking is a horrible idea by the way.
The largest deterrent for suicide gankers is not actually concord, it's other corps that have WAY more time than you do that will constantly watch for suicide gankers. These groups will find and kill your own freighter that loots because as soon as the freighter loots, it can be shot. If not for these opportunists, freighter ganking could be done with about 200 mill in catalysts easily. So funny enough, a broken ship (the freighter) became a balanced one due to savvy players who know how to make a quick buck lol |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:17:00 -
[233] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.
so why aren't people ganking in frigates? |
IDGAD
Get in the van I have candy.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:18:00 -
[234] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates?
Because destroyers offer better DPS per cost than frigates.
You can get twice the damage in a dessie than you can in a frig, and they are not that much more expensive. You do not fully fit a gank dessie, you just use meta/T1 damage mods, and usually meta guns with caldari navy antimatter. You get balls close to the freighter and gank it. Dessies are the best ships to gank with IF you can get enough people to get together and use them. It takes quite a few of them, and that is why some smaller groups use tornados and such for ganking. Goons when they did their massive freighter ganks used dessies because if you have so many players, any other ship is ******** to use. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:19:00 -
[235] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. People do gank in cruisers.
Oh god. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:19:00 -
[236] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:19:00 -
[237] - Quote
IDGAD wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because destroyers offer better DPS per cost than frigates.
so it's dps, not cost.
got it. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:21:00 -
[238] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost.
so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:22:00 -
[239] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE. Maller GÇö Built cost: ~8M GåÆ Survivability: annoyingly high GåÆ Gankability: none, it's a trap! Crow GÇö Build cost: ~11M GåÆ Survivability: very low GåÆ Gankability: #&%Gé¼# sit still you bastard! Iteron V GÇö Build cost: ~2M GåÆ Survivability: mediocre GåÆ Gankability: high.
R-¦: Not highGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3555
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:23:00 -
[240] - Quote
IDGAD wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If killing freighters in highsec is so easy, why aren't more people doing it (no one has actually answered this yet). Freighters & JF's do have the ability to survive a suicide gank attempt but a good majority of the pilots would rather autopilot their giant cargohold through highsec & complain when the inevitable happens.
You claim that there is no risk for suicide gankers. This is wrong on so many levels.
Edit: Isk-tanking is a horrible idea by the way. The largest deterrent for suicide gankers is not actually concord, it's other corps that have WAY more time than you do that will constantly watch for suicide gankers. These groups will find and kill your own freighter that loots because as soon as the freighter loots, it can be shot. If not for these opportunists, freighter ganking could be done with about 200 mill in catalysts easily. So funny enough, a broken ship (the freighter) became a balanced one due to savvy players who know how to make a quick buck lol
I already know these thing because, you know, I actually gank freighters. I also know that with enough people logging in it costs about 60m to gank a freighter. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
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