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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Lucy Hastmena
Darklights Raumschmiede
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3535
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
If killing freighters in highsec is so easy, why aren't more people doing it (no one has actually answered this yet). Freighters & JF's do have the ability to survive a suicide gank attempt but a good majority of the pilots would rather autopilot their giant cargohold through highsec & complain when the inevitable happens.
You claim that there is no risk for suicide gankers. This is wrong on so many levels.
Edit: Isk-tanking is a horrible idea by the way. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1623
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bring logi. Oh god. |
Lucy Hastmena
Darklights Raumschmiede
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
it is http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=19441611 only yesterday 3 Freighters where ganked by Pizza with catalysts and they asked a lot of ransom. A thypoon was bumping all the freighters/ jump freighters and asked for ransom. Even this freighter http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 was killed by them because it dosnt cost them anything really worthfull (sec status is for an 00 alliance not a problem and of course you can buy it easy after the last patch if you need it) |
Dave Stark
3390
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
The value of the ship that is destroyed in no way affects the profit the gankers make, in order for a gank to be profitable the value of the cargo and modules that drop would have to be worth more than the cost of the ships used in the gank and the time that would be required to grind the security status back up for the characters.
So don't fill your freighter with shiny's/keep the value low of what you haul or bring friends.
I know how this works I have done thousands of runs between Jita and Amarr in a freighter and I have never been ganked even though I have been ship scanned many times, I dont make it worth the while. |
Lucy Hastmena
Darklights Raumschmiede
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you.
This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about.
Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
A jump freighter that is being bumped can jump out of the system, that is, if he wasn't AFK in the first place. You still haven't answered my question; If suicide ganking freighters is so easy & profitable, why aren't more than a few groups doing it? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12779
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 15 pilots is still 15 pilots, regardless of the number of players controlling them.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276
You can scout it, you can have a friend or alt web your freighter, & your giant cargohold with an engine strapped to it is the inherent tank. You can do many things to mitigate the risk of a successful suicide gank being performed, you just choose not to. You choose to be a victim. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3391
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot Yes it is.
Lucy Hastmena wrote:And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. If you don't have more than 1 pilot, isboxer makes exactly 0 difference as it's used to control an amount of accounts/pilots >1 So, are you wrong, or are you telling me you can solo gank a freighter in high security space?
Lucy Hastmena wrote:There is absolute nothing you can do about. are you trying to be incorrect, or does it come naturally? I'm curious. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3539
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink.
If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276
If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense.
If you put 10 billion isks worth of faction shiny's in a freighter and auto pilot... well a fool and his things are quickly parted and rightly too
if you look at the 10 Bil + kills on eve kill the loses on there are normally not capital or super caps they are transport ships, where people are stupid there is an almost 13 billion isk Badger 2 that dropped nearly 8 bil in loot, people need to stop being so amazingly stupid.
It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever? |
Dave Stark
3393
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever?
I'd invest heavily in this. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3542
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever? I'd invest heavily in this.
To be completely honest, I don't kill freighters in highsec for the profit, I do it so people will create terrible threads like this. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense.
One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank loaded with trit. |
Dave Stark
3397
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever? I'd invest heavily in this. To be completely honest, I don't kill freighters in highsec for the profit, I do it so people will create terrible threads like this.
I'd still call the entertainment value of these threads a healthy profit. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12780
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. Why do they need to be able to fit a tank? The real world equivalent of a freighter would be something like a bulk oil carrier, which like a freighter can't fit a tank, can be overcome by a smaller force (see Somalian pirates) and can have it's direction of travel affected by smaller vessels, known as tugs.
An Orca is more of a multipurpose vessel, while primarily an industrial logistics platform, unlike a freighter it can be used for multiple purposes. An Orca can sacrifice cargo space to fit a tank, a lot of Orca pilots don't bother though and go for max cargo, those Orcas are as easy if not easier to kill than a freighter.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3397
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank carrying nothing but trit
who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3543
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. Why do they need to be able to fit a tank? The real world equivalent of a freighter would be something like a bulk oil carrier, which like a freighter can't fit a tank, can be overcome by a smaller force (see Somalian pirates) and can have it's direction of travel affected by smaller vessels, known as a tug. An Orca is more of a multipurpose vessel, while primarily an industrial logistics platform, unlike a freighter it can be used for multiple purposes. An Orca can sacrifice cargo space to fit a tank, a lot of Orca pilots don't bother though and go for max cargo, those Orcas are as easy if not easier to kill than a freighter.
A properly tanked Orca takes the same amount of T1 cats to kill as a Jump Freighter does, so the statement made previously about Orca's being able to tank better than freighters is actually wrong. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station.
The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12783
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
There's a really good reason that professional hauliers such as Red Frog have a collateral limit. They don't like having massive targets painted on their freighters.
edit - I stand corrected on Orcas, but overall they're less profitable to gank, as you can't fill a properly tanked Orca with as much expensive crap. I knew I should have checked the EHP, Infinity Ziona generally doesn't have a clue, but like a moron I took it at face value
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3543
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank loaded with trit.
Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3398
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game?
You best be trolling. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3543
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with.
Station egg's & iHubs come to mind. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca. Since its already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity those foolish enough to fit expanders making them even easier to gank and then filling the expanded space with more loot would find themselves in pods very quickly.
And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12783
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.
Really? it's considered bad form for civilian bulk carriers to be packing armed crewmen or guards, many ports won't let civilian vessels dock if there are armed personnel aboard.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3543
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca. Since its already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity those foolish enough to fit expanders making them even easier to gank and then filling the expanded space with more loot would find themselves in pods very quickly. And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.
I didn't give a real world example, but you seem very sure that I infact did. Please underline my real world example. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12783
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
It's confused you with me, as a highsec pubbie I'm flattered, you should be angry
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people.
Not sure where you think Megathrons come from. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. Station egg's & iHubs come to mind.
This is the only time my freighter has ever been close to full, and that is me avoiding as much Hi sec as I can. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3543
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. Not sure where you think Megathrons come from.
Next you'll tell me that it takes 20 JF trips to have all the trit for a Titan instead of a single trip. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3398
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. Not sure where you think Megathrons come from. Next you'll tell me that it takes 20 JF trips to have all the trit for a Titan instead of a single trip. But Mallak, you can't be suggesting that there's a more efficient way of transporting minerals than just dumping them all in the back of a freighter, surely!? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling.
If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing.
You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.
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Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3811
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
Permanent podkilling.
Yes! That's a feature CCP should implement! Carebears will finally fight back!
This won't backfire one bit! |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12786
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Permanent podkilling.
Yes! That's a feature CCP should implement! Carebears will finally fight back!
This won't backfire one bit! The carebear tears would fill the Aral Sea.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling. If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing. You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.
One destroyer cannot kill a freighter in hi sec unless you are at war or it otherwise legal combat it requires coordination of multiple assets which means there is profit to be made doing it, in short adjust the way that you fly, either limit your cargo or bring friends.
A frigate with double webs will help you get into warp that much faster reducing the risk or bumping and if you warp to zero and jump immediately it is very hard to get caught on the gates repeat for each jump.
I fly freighters and this is the way I do things, I fly with a double web Daredevil piloted by a friend not an alt he double webs me to help me get into warp quicker, plus I don't fly with a cargo value so high that I am attractive to gankers.
But if for some reason I need to move lots of more expensive things I bring more friends to scout ahead, twin logi and a heavy fast battleship. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. Not sure where you think Megathrons come from. Next you'll tell me that it takes 20 JF trips to have all the trit for a Titan instead of a single trip.
Uncompressed? That would take ~150 JF trips unless my napkin math is off, or ~800 trips for some of your blobs.
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3811
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:34:00 -
[40] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling. If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing. You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect. Pointless. Need more dps? Bring more people. Has more EHP? Bring more people. Harder to bump? Machariel.
The reasonable thing to do is analyzing the situation and determining what the problem is. As usual, it's there where most people don't look for it. In the mirror.
Nobody ever seems to notice that every single day they blame other things for their own failures. The saddest about this is that people call it human nature, just so they can keep going with jt. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12787
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote: One destroyer cannot kill a freighter in hi sec unless you are at war or it otherwise legal combat it requires coordination of multiple assets which means there is profit to be made doing it, in short adjust the way that you fly, either limit your cargo or bring friends.
A frigate with double webs will help you get into warp that much faster reducing the risk or bumping and if you warp to zero and jump immediately it is very hard to get caught on the gates repeat for each jump.
I fly freighters and this is the way I do things, I fly with a double web Daredevil piloted by a friend not an alt he double webs me to help me get into warp quicker, plus I don't fly with a cargo value so high that I am attractive to gankers.
But if for some reason I need to move lots of more expensive things I bring more friends to scout ahead, twin logi and a heavy fast battleship.
This is a proper freighter pilot, he takes steps to mitigate the risks involved with his profession.
S Byerley wrote: Uncompressed? That would take ~150 JF trips unless my napkin math is off, or ~800 trips for some of your blobs.
Why would you do it with uncompressed minerals? It's inefficient to say the least. Before anybody screams "you can't compress minerals without a Rorqual", firstly a Rorqual compresses ores, and secondly you can, it's called modules.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3544
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling. If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing. You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.
Their original design purpose, to hold very large things or lots of small things has not been invalidated. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3544
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. Not sure where you think Megathrons come from. Next you'll tell me that it takes 20 JF trips to have all the trit for a Titan instead of a single trip. Uncompressed? That would take ~150 JF trips unless my napkin math is off, or ~800 trips for some of your blobs.
Well there you go. Now you can see why hauling a freighter full of trit is silly. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.
Really? it's considered bad form for civilian bulk carriers to be packing armed crewmen or guards, many ports won't let civilian vessels dock if there are armed personnel aboard. Source : United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea There are fleets of military ships who intercept and destroy if necessary suspect vessels BEFORE they attack. They're not mindless npcs that let you offload the loot (scoop it) and dock in NY to sell the petroleum eh? Your RL examples are stupid in this discussion. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:One destroyer cannot kill a freighter in hi sec unless you are at war or it otherwise legal combat it requires coordination of multiple assets which means there is profit to be made doing it
The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
Quote:A frigate with double webs will help you get into warp that much faster reducing the risk or bumping and if you warp to zero and jump immediately it is very hard to get caught on the gates repeat for each jump.
I fly freighters and this is the way I do things, I fly with a double web Daredevil piloted by a friend not an alt he double webs me to help me get into warp quicker, plus I don't fly with a cargo value so high that I am attractive to gankers.
But if for some reason I need to move lots of more expensive things I bring more friends to scout ahead, twin logi and a heavy fast battleship.
While I won't fault you for your meticulous personal practices, I think high sec freighting is a boring enough activity already without requiring teamwork. |
Dave Stark
3400
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.
yes, you oculd nerf t1 destroyer dps. then you'd just bring less people in bigger ships, and you'd still be here crying that it was 15 brutix instead of 25 catalysts (numbers irrelevant, the point is the same).
give freighters more ehp? see above.
give freighters less cargo? wouldn't stop people filling it with billions of isk of officer/faction/deadspace modules and being moronic loot pinatas.
make freighters less easy to bump? this has no real affect on killing a freighter or not, let's be honest. it just means people have to get their **** together faster that's all.
none of your solutions actually solve a single thing, really. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12787
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: There are fleets of military ships who intercept and destroy if necessary suspect vessels BEFORE they attack. They're not mindless npcs that let you offload the loot (scoop it) and dock in NY to sell the petroleum eh? Your RL examples are stupid in this discussion.
You're stupid!! seems to be your standard response when someone disagrees with you, could you perhaps be more constructive with your criticisms and provide reasons why it's stupid?
Yes there are military ships in the area, they're not particularly successful at intercepting pirates or preventing hijacks though, because they can't be everywhere at once.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3545
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.
Really? it's considered bad form for civilian bulk carriers to be packing armed crewmen or guards, many ports won't let civilian vessels dock if there are armed personnel aboard. Source : United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea There are fleets of military ships who intercept and destroy if necessary suspect vessels BEFORE they attack. They're not mindless npcs that let you offload the loot (scoop it) and dock in NY to sell the petroleum eh? Your RL examples are stupid in this discussion.
But they, like the mindless NPC's, aren't always successful so it's not a stupid comparison. It's actually pretty accurate. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote: Pointless. Need more dps? Bring more people. Has more EHP? Bring more people. Harder to bump? Machariel.
The assumption was that these were already being done; standard procedure (AFAIK) is to have two Machariels bump it off grid then attack with ~30 cats. If you shift the equations or adjust the bump mechanics it gets harder and less profitable, but still doable (fine in my book).
Quote:Nobody ever seems to notice that every single day they blame other things for their own failures. The saddest about this is that people call it human nature, just so they can keep going with jt.
Human nature is also assuming people have ulterior motives just because they disagree with you.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12788
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:48:00 -
[50] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? It's main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: There are fleets of military ships who intercept and destroy if necessary suspect vessels BEFORE they attack. They're not mindless npcs that let you offload the loot (scoop it) and dock in NY to sell the petroleum eh? Your RL examples are stupid in this discussion.
You're stupid!! seems to be your standard response when someone disagrees with you, could you perhaps be more constructive with your criticisms and provide reasons why it's stupid? Yes there are military ships in the area, they're not particularly successful at intercepting pirates or preventing hijacks though, because they can't be everywhere at once. Actually I didn't say You were stupid. I wouldn't call anyone stupid unless I personally knew them to be stupid. I said you're comparing piracy in RL to suicide ganking in EvE was stupid. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12788
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Actually I didn't say You were stupid. I wouldn't call anyone stupid unless I personally knew them to be stupid. I said you're comparing piracy in RL to suicide ganking in EvE was stupid.
Fair enough my apologies, now please explain how my comparison of real life piracy to ingame piracy, which incidentally includes suicide ganking, was stupid.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:51:00 -
[53] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:[quote=S Byerley]then you'd just bring less people in bigger ships, and you'd still be here crying that it was 15 brutix instead of 25 catalysts (numbers irrelevant, the point is the same).
Numbers very relevant; 15 brutix's, for example, stops being profitable in most cases.
Quote:none of your solutions actually solve a single thing, really.
Perhaps if the point were to make freighters unkillable; it's not - see mining barge changes. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3545
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:While I won't fault you for your meticulous personal practices, I think high sec freighting is a boring enough activity already without requiring teamwork.
It's boring, so instead of using the tactics used by the freighter pilots that don't get ganked, CCP should just make it easier for me to not get ganked. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
805
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
People pay money for subscriptions to gank jump freighters and freighters. Deal with it
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:53:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? It's main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended. Yes working as intended. However damage implemented after freighters which at the time of implementation were a lot more difficult and costly to gank. Thus the need for rebalance. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:55:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? It's main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended.
I was under the impression they were mainly supposed to be frigate killers -
Eve wrote:Ideally suited for both skirmish warfare and fleet support, the Catalyst is touted as one of the best anti-frigate platforms out there. Faced with its top-of-the-line tracking equipment, not many can argue. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:58:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:While I won't fault you for your meticulous personal practices, I think high sec freighting is a boring enough activity already without requiring teamwork. It's boring, so instead of using the tactics used by the freighter pilots that don't get ganked, CCP should just make it easier for me to not get ganked.
More like, it's boring so it shouldn't require teamwork and coordination - see missions, industry, trading, ect.
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3545
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? It's main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended. I was under the impression they were originally supposed to be frigate killers - Eve wrote:Ideally suited for both skirmish warfare and fleet support, the Catalyst is touted as one of the best anti-frigate platforms out there. Faced with its top-of-the-line tracking equipment, not many can argue.
So you think they should only be allowed to kill frigates? They're great for killing frigates, but they're also great for killing other things too. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Actually I didn't say You were stupid. I wouldn't call anyone stupid unless I personally knew them to be stupid. I said you're comparing piracy in RL to suicide ganking in EvE was stupid.
Fair enough my apologies, I've edited the original post. Now please explain how my comparison of real life piracy to ingame piracy, which incidentally includes suicide ganking, was stupid. Because in RL if a freighter sees a bunch of small boats assembling they call one of the navy fleets patrolling nearby and if those small boats don't have a good reason or are armed they get warned and then wtfpwned. In EvE the Navy just sits there and even let's the pirates scoop the loot. Completely different. |
|
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
175
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
As if it hasn't been driven home already in this thread....I will go ahead an reiterate.
EVE Online is what is known as a massive multiplayer online game. The point of playing a game such as this is not to play it alone, on autopilot, while you are eating your Cheerios and wondering if you will find meaning beyond posting a thread that has been bashed into the ground seven hundred million times.
That being said, EVE is unique in that the developers created a rule set in which to let others ruin your day.
So, my suggestion?
Get a pilot to fly logistics with you and get a pilot to fly a long range webber such as the Rapier. Slingshot-align your jumps with the incredible power of 60km webs, and if you have a gank squad attack you, you rep up with the logi. If you are that paranoid, get a second logi.
Point is, less than three days ago, I rescued a friend's freighter from a neighboring system of Rahadalon, after it was left there as a troll during a "corp break-up." We literally used a Scythe for "just-in-case" logistics, a tankless Rifter with 3 webs, and a 6k km/s Stilleto. We each sat on a gate scouting, mashing d-scan, and waiting for each slingshot jump. It got out safe and sound.
Now tell me, if we can do that, with minimal tools, would you care to explain to me why you cannot pilot a freighter through high-sec? I will be awaiting your response, OP. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3545
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Actually I didn't say You were stupid. I wouldn't call anyone stupid unless I personally knew them to be stupid. I said you're comparing piracy in RL to suicide ganking in EvE was stupid.
Fair enough my apologies, I've edited the original post. Now please explain how my comparison of real life piracy to ingame piracy, which incidentally includes suicide ganking, was stupid. Because in RL if a freighter sees a bunch of small boats assembling they call one of the navy fleets patrolling nearby and if those small boats don't have a good reason or are armed they get warned and then wtfpwned. In EvE the Navy just sits there and even let's the pirates scoop the loot. Completely different.
More proof that highsec people don't really know how the game actually works. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:02:00 -
[63] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Because in RL if a freighter sees a bunch of small boats assembling they call one of the navy fleets patrolling nearby and if those small boats don't have a good reason or are armed they get warned and then wtfpwned. In EvE the Navy just sits there and even let's the pirates scoop the loot. Completely different. Freighter pilots are capable of calling the navy for support as long as it they don't expect support from an NPC faction navy, just like RL. Oh god. |
Dave Stark
3402
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:03:00 -
[64] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Numbers very relevant; 15 brutix's, for example, stops being profitable in most cases.
No it isn't.
people will still gank freighters, they will just use different ships if destroyers get nerfed in to the ground. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3545
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:04:00 -
[65] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Now tell me, if we can do that, with minimal tools, would you care to explain to me why you cannot pilot a freighter through high-sec? I will be awaiting your response, OP.
Good luck. I'm still waiting on a response to my question which I've asked people several times over the past year. No one has ever answered it. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:05:00 -
[66] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? It's main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended. I was under the impression they were originally supposed to be frigate killers - Eve wrote:Ideally suited for both skirmish warfare and fleet support, the Catalyst is touted as one of the best anti-frigate platforms out there. Faced with its top-of-the-line tracking equipment, not many can argue. So you think they should only be allowed to kill frigates? They're great for killing frigates, but they're also great for killing other things too.
Killing frigates doesn't necessarily equate to insane dps/isk is all.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Because in RL if a freighter sees a bunch of small boats assembling they call one of the navy fleets patrolling nearby and if those small boats don't have a good reason or are armed they get warned and then wtfpwned. In EvE the Navy just sits there and even let's the pirates scoop the loot. Completely different. Freighter pilots are capable of calling the navy for support as long as it they don't expect support from an NPC faction navy, just like RL. That's true however it then becomes more profitable to use another ship solo making the freighter useless. High sec is supposed to be relatively safe not more dangerous then null which it is for freighters.
|
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
176
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:08:00 -
[68] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Now tell me, if we can do that, with minimal tools, would you care to explain to me why you cannot pilot a freighter through high-sec? I will be awaiting your response, OP. Good luck. I'm still waiting on a response to my question which I've asked people several times over the past year. No one has ever answered it.
It is ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I have had my share of being randomly ganked, especially in my first few months.
It is easy...
Miners: Align to station and use d-scan. Sit at the damn computer.
Truckers: Use webbing and logistics, and DO NOT AUTOPILOT. Oh, and sit at your damn computer. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:10:00 -
[69] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Numbers very relevant; 15 brutix's, for example, stops being profitable in most cases. No it isn't. people will still gank freighters, they will just use different ships if destroyers get nerfed in to the ground.
Then surely you have no complaints if Freighters/ect. are adjusted such that it takes ~900m to gank them with a reasonable number of people?
|
Dave Stark
3402
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:11:00 -
[70] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Numbers very relevant; 15 brutix's, for example, stops being profitable in most cases. No it isn't. people will still gank freighters, they will just use different ships if destroyers get nerfed in to the ground. Then surely you have no complaints if Freighters/ect. are adjusted such that it takes ~900m to gank them with a reasonable number of people?
Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet. |
|
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
176
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Numbers very relevant; 15 brutix's, for example, stops being profitable in most cases. No it isn't. people will still gank freighters, they will just use different ships if destroyers get nerfed in to the ground. Then surely you have no complaints if Freighters/ect. are adjusted such that it takes ~900m to gank them with a reasonable number of people? Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet.
We don't. The tear factories need to learn how to pilot them. |
Dave Stark
3402
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:We don't.
In that case then, I guess I would be upset if CCP wasted their time changing things that don't need changing instead of continuing with balancing ships that do actually need rebalancing. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3546
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Numbers very relevant; 15 brutix's, for example, stops being profitable in most cases. No it isn't. people will still gank freighters, they will just use different ships if destroyers get nerfed in to the ground. Then surely you have no complaints if Freighters/ect. are adjusted such that it takes ~900m to gank them with a reasonable number of people?
Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12788
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Because in RL if a freighter sees a bunch of small boats assembling they call one of the navy fleets patrolling nearby and if those small boats don't have a good reason or are armed they get warned and then wtfpwned. In EvE the Navy just sits there and even let's the pirates scoop the loot. Completely different.
Did you somehow miss this?
Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Yes there are military ships in the area, they're not particularly successful at intercepting pirates or preventing hijacks though, because they can't be everywhere at once.
The naval fleets are limited in size, current anti piracy operations consist of between 4 and 15 ships, dependant on other operational requirements such as intercepts in the Middle East, with 2 or 3 patrol aircraft, and they cover an area of around 2 million square nautical miles. They're also bound by rules of engagement, they can't preemptively strike, there has to be a real threat to shipping or shots fired.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
177
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:19:00 -
[75] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:We don't. In that case then, I guess I would be upset if CCP wasted their time changing things that don't need changing instead of continuing with balancing ships that do actually need rebalancing.
Balancing ships that need it? Hell, not only that...how about a updated drone UI? I could name a thousand things, and I have just now entered my third year. But no...we must cater to those who buy expensive things and then do not know how to use them. Instead, they run to GD crying, when the reality is they shouldn't have undocked it if they cannot get behind a game called Everyone vs. Everyone. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet.
Because ganking them is too cost effective.
If I understand correctly your counter argument is that it shouldn't be made less cost effective because it will still be profitable? Doesn't make much sense. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game?
Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3546
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:24:00 -
[78] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet. Because ganking them is too cost effective. If I understand correctly your counter argument is that it shouldn't be made less cost effective because it will still be profitable? Doesn't make much sense.
Don't make yourself profitable to gank. Why shouldn't people be allowed to blow others up for profit? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
177
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:24:00 -
[79] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet. Because ganking them is too cost effective. If I understand correctly your counter argument is that it shouldn't be made less cost effective because it will still be profitable? Doesn't make much sense.
The cost effectiveness is determined by you, the pilot who chooses to undock and carry whatever you feel the need to carry, without proper support, inviting said gank. By undocking, you are consenting to non-consensual PvP. And that is not going to change anytime soon. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3547
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes?
Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:28:00 -
[81] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet. Because ganking them is too cost effective. If I understand correctly your counter argument is that it shouldn't be made less cost effective because it will still be profitable? Doesn't make much sense.
bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0.
just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed.
actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3814
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet. Because ganking them is too cost effective. If I understand correctly your counter argument is that it shouldn't be made less cost effective because it will still be profitable? Doesn't make much sense. bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0. just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed. actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix. There is something broken, but most humans are too dumb to be fixed. |
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost?
then perhaps you should stop limiting cost to isk and wallet balance and look at the whole picture. |
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:31:00 -
[84] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:There is something broken, but most humans are too dumb to be fixed. o/ hey sol.
Can't fix stupid! |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12789
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:33:00 -
[85] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Solstice Project wrote:There is something broken, but most humans are too dumb to be fixed. o/ hey sol. Can't fix stupid! Not even God can patch stupid.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
178
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:33:00 -
[86] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes?
Yea, because if you are referring to Miniluv...they are well known as a subsection of Goons. Try again. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3547
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:34:00 -
[87] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any.
I'll take the absense of a reply as a no. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:35:00 -
[88] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Yea, because if you are referring to Miniluv...they are well known as a subsection of Goons. Try again.
Actually Miniluv is open to the whole CFC last I checked. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:37:00 -
[89] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Yea, because if you are referring to Miniluv...they are well known as a subsection of Goons. Try again. Actually Miniluv is open to the whole CFC last I checked.
Yea, I think you are correct on that one. Haven't flown with them since the last Tribute War. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3548
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:38:00 -
[90] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Yea, because if you are referring to Miniluv...they are well known as a subsection of Goons. Try again. Actually Miniluv is open to the whole CFC last I checked.
Except for Li3 & FCON because their leadership won't allow their members to do fun things (despite the former going & recruiting a bunch of lowsec pirating corps earlier this year). We should reset them. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:40:00 -
[91] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Yea, because if you are referring to Miniluv...they are well known as a subsection of Goons. Try again. Actually Miniluv is open to the whole CFC last I checked. Except for Li3 & FCON because their leadership are stupid. We should reset them.
Hey......more space to rent |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12789
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:44:00 -
[92] - Quote
Still waiting for an answer from Infinity Ziona on how likely a naval anti piracy operation being close to a ship threatened by pirates is, in an area that's 67% of the size of Europe.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0.
I stipulated with a reasonable number of people; I also assumed you understood profit/person is the relevant figure.
Quote:just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed.
Is getting 30 people to warp and hit F1 supposed to be an impressive feat?
Quote:actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix.
How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b.
That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk.
Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr?
|
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:48:00 -
[94] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b.
That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk.
Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr?
There is risk. Loss of security status. Lose enough of it and you are barred from high sec. |
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:49:00 -
[95] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr? Considering other activities make more isk/hour for less cost. Perhaps you'd like to argue why it isn't? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12789
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:50:00 -
[96] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0. I stipulated with a reasonable number of people; I also assumed you understood profit/person is the relevant figure. Quote:just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed. Is getting 30 people to warp and hit F1 supposed to be an impressive feat? Quote:actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix. How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b. That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk. Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr? There's a 50/50 risk of the loot fairy saying "screw you *******", taking costs, and the chance of the loot fairy being nasty into account, the income is at best 65 million an hour, the same as blitzing level 4 missions which carry a far smaller risk.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:52:00 -
[97] - Quote
Fact is, he can't argue. It is not the problem of CCP, that you do not have the corp support or the option to multibox a fleet to convoy his goods.
MULTIPLAYER GAME MULTIPLAYER GAME MULTIPLAYER GAME
Start repeating it as a mantra....you'll get there.....eventually. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16255
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:54:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Yes? And? Cost is not a balancing factor, and 17 > 1. So what's the problem?
Quote:Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). Yes? And? Cost is still not a balancing factor, and 25 > 1, so this is exactly how it should be.
Quote:Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. This is already the case. The best way of surviving is to ensure that it's too costly for the gankers to attack you.
Quote:They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself. No, they absolutely must not. The last time CCP tried to balance according to cost, we got Titans GÇö a ship that causes balance problems to this day. They have since learned the single truth about ship balancing: cost is not a balancing factor, and requiring equal cost for a kill is as idiotic an idea as they come because it means that bigger is always better; that small ships have no reason to exist; and that there is no way for the little guy to ever beat the big guy. It only ever creates horrible gameplay without any semblance of balance.
You can use 0 ISK worth of ships to destroy any other ship in the game. This is as it should be. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dave Stark
3403
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:54:00 -
[99] - Quote
I'm still trying to figure out why it's an issue at all; if you're worried about being shot pay the laughably low price that RF or push ask and get them to take the risk; and should they fumble you did set your collateral properly right?
actually, i don't think i've ever seen a red frog or push pilot make a thread about freighter ganking. fancy that. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:57:00 -
[100] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:I'm still trying to figure out why it's an issue at all; if you're worried about being shot pay the laughably low price that RF or push ask and get them to take the risk; and should they fumble you did set your collateral properly right?
actually, i don't think i've ever seen a red frog or push pilot make a thread about freighter ganking. fancy that.
Because they actually know what they are doing? Lmfao. |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 10:59:00 -
[101] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr? Considering other activities make more isk/hour for less cost. Perhaps you'd like to argue why it isn't?
Name one and I'll explain why it's not the same.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:There's a 50/50 risk of the loot fairy saying "screw you pirate scum", taking costs, and the chance of the loot fairy being nasty into account, the income is at best 65 million per person per hour,
Drop rate was already accounted for, 130m/hr.
Quote:the same as blitzing level 4 missions which carry a far smaller risk.
Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:02:00 -
[102] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up.
Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:02:00 -
[103] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:S Byerley wrote:
Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up.
Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now.
Oh, and no ammo. Just sentries. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:03:00 -
[104] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Because they actually know what they are doing? Lmfao.
RF loses freighters just like everyone else; they don't show up on kill boards because only the admins are actually in the corp. Plastic wrap does tend to be less attractive though. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
54
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:04:00 -
[105] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank loaded with trit.
Off all the ways to make isk in EVE freighter ganking is one of the worst. Of all the interesting things to do in EVE freighter ganking is one of the least fun. You have to find a bunch of other people willing to wait around for hours to find one worth ganking.
So poor isk/hour low fun involves herding a bunch of people with low boredom thresholds.
= almost no one does this
and almost all the ones that do pick the low hanging fruit (autopiloters) or the loot pinata (5+ bill cargo).
i also heard a rumour that jump freighters can jump out if a cyno alt is ready for them.
Please please stop making this same thread over and over.
If it were a real problem red frog wouldn't move my stuff so cheaply. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:05:00 -
[106] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Because they actually know what they are doing? Lmfao. RF loses freighters just like everyone else; they don't show up on kill boards because only the admins are actually in the corp. Plastic wrap does tend to be less attractive though.
Then you just solved your problem. Double wrap your items with a courier contract alt. |
Dave Stark
3406
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:05:00 -
[107] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Name one and I'll explain why it's not the same. no, explain to me why ganking freighters should be worth less than other activities that involve less cost? please, i'm interested in why we should negatively change an already sub par way of making isk.
i'm intrigued as to why making something worse is a good idea even though it's clearly not out of line in any way. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:05:00 -
[108] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now.
You blitz missions in a MJD domi? How's that working out for you? ISK/hr wise. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12790
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:08:00 -
[109] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Drop rate was already accounted for, 130m/hr. Quote:the same as blitzing level 4 missions which carry a far smaller risk. Significantly less than blitzing missions and with significantly less risk. An efficient missioner is going to spend about as much on ammo as a freighter ganker does on cats, and stands to lose 1b+ when they **** up. Fair enough, 130million/hr, blitzing level 4 missions still carries less risk than suicide ganking, if you lose a 1 billion isk ship to NPCs that's your own fault.
65million is an average, some people claim to be able to earn 100m/hr+ by blitzing. I run 4's in a BC because I dislike BS's, I also loot and salvage, even though I mission in an inefficient manner 40+ million an hour is easy. If I was blitzing them in a 1 billion isk ship, and subcontracting the cleanup to Prosynergy, I would expect to pull in somewhere in the region of 80 to 100 million isk + the income from the loot and salvage.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
350
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:09:00 -
[110] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. |
|
Dave Stark
3406
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:11:00 -
[111] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there.
And yet the miner who mines 5 trillion isk worth of minerals has had 0 isk in losses.
I think there's a slight imbalance there, too. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:13:00 -
[112] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Hmmm, considering I can fly a T2 Domi for under 200 mil and be efficient.......you do not stand to lose a bil. You are simply trolling now. You blitz missions in a MJD domi? How's that working out for you? ISK/hr wise.
Well, considering I will only run missions if I absolutely have to, I do just fine. Point is, what you are saying is irrelevant. A billion isk ship is not necessary to run missions efficiently. Knowing how to pilot a ship makes the missioning effective. So minimal risk vs. 45+ an hour blitzing, and significantly more if I choose to farm only the most lucrative missions across a couple of constellations. It's called thinking outside the narrow view that you cannot seem to escape from.
Here. I will place the tear jar down here. Fill it up as you see fit. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16255
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:13:00 -
[113] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. A 10:1 ROI for a carefully chosen application of ships and skills? Seems fairly reasonable. Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12790
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:14:00 -
[114] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. So Goons have 90% efficiency on suicide ganks? Impressive.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:16:00 -
[115] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there.
You heard wrong. 5 trillion in kills is not 5 trillion in profits. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
237
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:17:00 -
[116] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:bring enough noobships and ganking anything costs you 0. I stipulated with a reasonable number of people; I also assumed you understood profit/person is the relevant figure. Quote:just because various groups can muster the number of pilots required to a larger number of lower dps ships doesn't mean freighters need to be changed. Is getting 30 people to warp and hit F1 supposed to be an impressive feat? Quote:actually my counter argument was simply asking you what it was that you're trying to fix, since nothing is broken and in need of a fix. How much do you think a freighter should carry? I've seen a lot of people say ~2b. That works out to ~130m/hr/person for high sec pvp with low investment(both sp and ISK) and low/no risk. Perhaps you'd like to argue that the activity is deserving of 130m/hr?
#1 - if you gank a freighter with 2bil in it, the average drop is 1bil, the minimal drop is 0. if the freighter has 1 pile in it, the average drop won't happen, the drop will be a dice roll on nil or full, and such things can streak nil..
#2 - destroyer ganks need to bump the freighter away from the gate guns. I had a thrasher shoot a frigate of mine once, and the thrasher was vaporized before I even reacted. ie even if you do make 130m, you will be stuffing around for some time to make it happen. (waiting assembled for right target, scout account, bumping time).
#3 - many people just fly to jita, when jita may well be on the other side of niarja or uedama. Sometimes you can in fact sort your logistics out so that you do not need to fly through the choke systems (ie my freighter typically flies 2 jumps).
#4 - a max cargo viator full of 425mm railguns is very hard to intercept outside of null or badly chosen stations, aligns and warps quickly and carries a surprising amount of minerals. ie for some scales of tasks, its an option, and it can also move higher value stuff, so not all your eggs are in your freighter basket. orca can do similar if you need to extract from a station that has danger.
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:19:00 -
[117] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.
They do when they feel like it? Too much ISK makes people pursue more varied activities. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12790
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:19:00 -
[118] - Quote
Tauranon wrote: #1 - if you gank a freighter with 2bil in it, the average drop is 1bil, the minimal drop is 0. if the freighter has 1 pile in it, the average drop won't happen, the drop will be a dice roll on nil or full, and such things can streak nil..
#2 - destroyer ganks need to bump the freighter away from the gate guns. I had a thrasher shoot a frigate of mine once, and the thrasher was vaporized before I even reacted. ie even if you do make 130m, you will be stuffing around for some time to make it happen. (waiting assembled for right target, scout account, bumping time).
#3 - many people just fly to jita, when jita may well be on the other side of niarja or uedama. Sometimes you can in fact sort your logistics out so that you do not need to fly through the choke systems (ie my freighter typically flies 2 jumps).
#4 - a max cargo viator full of 425mm railguns is very hard to intercept outside of null or badly chosen stations, aligns and warps quickly and carries a surprising amount of minerals. ie for some scales of tasks, its an option, and it can also move higher value stuff, so not all your eggs are in your freighter basket. orca can do similar if you need to extract from a station that has danger.
Thought and effort, both of which are foreign to a lot of players
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:21:00 -
[119] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.
They do when they feel like it? Too much ISK makes people pursue more varied activities.
You are yet to name anyone that actually ganks freighters every 20 minutes. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Knights of the Dark Rose Black Crescent Inc.
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:22:00 -
[120] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Tauranon wrote: #1 - if you gank a freighter with 2bil in it, the average drop is 1bil, the minimal drop is 0. if the freighter has 1 pile in it, the average drop won't happen, the drop will be a dice roll on nil or full, and such things can streak nil..
#2 - destroyer ganks need to bump the freighter away from the gate guns. I had a thrasher shoot a frigate of mine once, and the thrasher was vaporized before I even reacted. ie even if you do make 130m, you will be stuffing around for some time to make it happen. (waiting assembled for right target, scout account, bumping time).
#3 - many people just fly to jita, when jita may well be on the other side of niarja or uedama. Sometimes you can in fact sort your logistics out so that you do not need to fly through the choke systems (ie my freighter typically flies 2 jumps).
#4 - a max cargo viator full of 425mm railguns is very hard to intercept outside of null or badly chosen stations, aligns and warps quickly and carries a surprising amount of minerals. ie for some scales of tasks, its an option, and it can also move higher value stuff, so not all your eggs are in your freighter basket. orca can do similar if you need to extract from a station that has danger.
Thought and effort, both of which are foreign to a lot of players
No kidding, we have literally spent quite some time bombarding logic in this direction. Logic Hardeners must be trained to V. |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
351
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:22:00 -
[121] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. You heard wrong. 5 trillion in kills is not 5 trillion in profits. Given a lot of their kills are empty Im assuming their profit is tears. But if you like 10:1 isk ratio cost vs damage still very imbalanced. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:23:00 -
[122] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:You are yet to name anyone that actually ganks freighters every 20 minutes.
Bat Country averages 15-20minutes/freighter when they're actively doing it - based on killboard. I assume you're familiar with them at least? |
Dave Stark
3406
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:24:00 -
[123] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Given a lot of their kills are empty Im assuming their profit is tears. But if you like 10:1 isk ratio cost vs damage still very imbalanced.
indeed, now imagine you're making isk for 0 cost like miners. it's a complete absurdity isn't it? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12790
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:24:00 -
[124] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Given a lot of their kills are empty Im assuming their profit is tears. But if you like 10:1 isk ratio cost vs damage still very imbalanced.
Nope it's a good investment.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16257
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:25:00 -
[125] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:They do when they feel like it? Most likely, they do it when the opportunity arises, which by the looks of it isn't that often.
Infinity Ziona wrote:But if you like 10:1 isk ratio cost vs damage still very imbalanced. It's a lot less than what I get out of my shipsGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:30:00 -
[126] - Quote
Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:They do when they feel like it? Most likely, they do it when the opportunity arises, which by the looks of it isn't that often.
Maybe if their overlord was less demanding. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16257
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:33:00 -
[127] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Maybe if their overlord was less demanding. Maybe if freigther pilots weren't so wily and clever as to not make themselves obvious targets all the timeGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:45:00 -
[128] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:You are yet to name anyone that actually ganks freighters every 20 minutes. Bat Country averages 15-20minutes/freighter when they're actively doing it - based on killboard. I assume you're familiar with them at least?
Bat Country averages 45 combined freighter & JF kills per month. After going through their freighter kills for the last 18 months I only see a dozen instances where freighters or JF's died less than 25 mintues apart. So again, name the alt corp that is suicide ganking freighters every 20 minutes, otherwise you'll have to concede that no one actually does this. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:53:00 -
[129] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Bat Country averages 45 combined freighter & JF kills per month. After going through their freighter kills for the last 18 months I only see a dozen instances where freighters or JF's died less than 25 mintues apart. So again, name the alt corp that is suicide ganking freighters every 20 minutes, otherwise you'll have to concede that no one actually does this.
When Tippia admits something and you still refuse to, you should probably reevaluate your life.
The key word was average. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:55:00 -
[130] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Bat Country averages 45 combined freighter & JF kills per month. After going through their freighter kills for the last 18 months I only see a dozen instances where freighters or JF's died less than 25 mintues apart. So again, name the alt corp that is suicide ganking freighters every 20 minutes, otherwise you'll have to concede that no one actually does this. When Tippia admits something and you still refuse to, you should probably reevaluate your life. The key word was average.
And the killboard says your assumed average is wrong. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
439
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:56:00 -
[131] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink.
at least give them a suitcase I Endorse this Product and/or Service EVE Online Battle Recorder When I press F1 I get ISK |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12796
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:58:00 -
[132] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Bat Country averages 45 combined freighter & JF kills per month. After going through their freighter kills for the last 18 months I only see a dozen instances where freighters or JF's died less than 25 mintues apart. So again, name the alt corp that is suicide ganking freighters every 20 minutes, otherwise you'll have to concede that no one actually does this. When Tippia admits something and you still refuse to, you should probably reevaluate your life. The key word was average.
An average of 45 freighter/JF kills over a 30 day period is one every sixteen hours, not one every twenty minutes. I suggest you look up the meaning of the word average.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16259
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:59:00 -
[133] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:When Tippia admits something and you still refuse to, you should probably reevaluate your life. Just to be sure: what do you believe I'm admitting this time?
Because if you think it is in any way in contrast to what Mallak Azaria said, you're wrong. I admitted that they can't get one every ~20 minute on average because, although we often tend to claim otherwise in these threads (and how can you blame us, when the thread starters so often provide evidence to the contrary?), freighter pilots aren't really all stupid and AFK, and actually present fewer viable targets than one might think given all the whining.
Bat Country does not qualify for the claimed 15GÇô20 minute average, and it definitely isn't indiscriminate (hell, they're not even much of an alt corp). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
353
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:01:00 -
[134] - Quote
As I said in my first post arguing against ganking freighters when the overriding principle supporting it is based on a refusal to acknowledge its misplaced and imbalanced position in the game gets everyone nowhere. Have fun till CCP nerfs it just like the Lofty trick everyone thought was balanced and fine. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16259
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:04:00 -
[135] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:As I said in my first post arguing against ganking freighters when the overriding principle supporting it is based on a refusal to acknowledge its misplaced and imbalanced position in the game gets everyone nowhere. In what way is it misplaced or imbalanced?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:09:00 -
[136] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca.
Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different.
I agree with ziona , you used to have bs fleets , and you make it sound ALL the ppl gonna fit cargo expanders , but thats a lie .
Like she said you biased and you dont want ccp nerf your incom wich i can understand , but after shuttle to have ships that cannot be fitted is plain stupid
edit: i dotn know what you mean by heavily nerfing , but it sounds like after your patch you cant even haul a i hub anymore The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
Dave Stark
3408
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:12:00 -
[137] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed?
because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
360
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:13:00 -
[138] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:As I said in my first post arguing against ganking freighters when the overriding principle supporting it is based on a refusal to acknowledge its misplaced and imbalanced position in the game gets everyone nowhere. In what way is it misplaced or imbalanced? Maybe this Gǣrefusal to acknowledgeGǥ this position is because the position has never actually been properly articulated or provenGǪ hmm? The principle of the EvE system is that high sec is relatively safe, low sec is unsafe and null is very unsafe.
Being able to suicide a capital ship with a few cheap dessies repeatedly in High goes against that principle, devalues and imbalances the ship involved and is socially bad for EvE.
I enjoy inflicting loss and harm on others in EvE however suiciding clearly crosses a line from gameplay to gaming the game. The ability to remove months of a persons effort while putting in none yourself is bad for EvE imo.
Its clearly imbalanced.
I know what you'll try to come back with, not interested really. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12798
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:14:00 -
[139] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca. Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different. I agree with ziona , you used to have bs fleets , and you make it sound ALL the ppl gonna fit cargo expanders , but thats a lie . Like she said you biased and you dont want ccp nerf your incom wich i can understand , but after shuttle to have ships that cannot be fitted is plain stupid edit: i dotn know what you mean by heavily nerfing , but it sounds like after your patch you cant even haul a i hub anymore Every other ship in the game sacrifices one thing for another, why would a freighter with a tank be any different.
Example A T1 hauler vs a blockade runner, one has the ability to fit a nominal tank at the expense of cargo, the other comes with a decent tank and speed as standard, but loses out on cargo.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:17:00 -
[140] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules.
well then tey can make it easy , all the mods you fit , except the ******* damn cargo expanders. thats was not hard was it?
edit: BATTLE CHARON WHOEIIIIII The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
|
Dave Stark
3408
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:17:00 -
[141] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:As I said in my first post arguing against ganking freighters when the overriding principle supporting it is based on a refusal to acknowledge its misplaced and imbalanced position in the game gets everyone nowhere. In what way is it misplaced or imbalanced? Maybe this Gǣrefusal to acknowledgeGǥ this position is because the position has never actually been properly articulated or provenGǪ hmm? The principle of the EvE system is that high sec is relatively safe, low sec is unsafe and null is very unsafe. Being able to suicide a capital ship with a few cheap dessies repeatedly in High goes against that principle, devalues and imbalances the ship involved and is socially bad for EvE. I enjoy inflicting loss and harm on others in EvE however suiciding clearly crosses a line from gameplay to gaming the game. The ability to remove months of a persons effort while putting in none yourself is bad for EvE imo. Its clearly imbalanced. I know what you'll try to come back with, not interested really.
you do realise you've just said it's unfair that a large group of players are needed to destroy one ship? and the unfairness is on the part of the one guy on his own.
please tell me you realise what you've just said. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
360
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:19:00 -
[142] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. Who cares if you move them into highsec. As long as you can't assemble them which is easily fixed. |
Dave Stark
3408
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:19:00 -
[143] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. well then tey can make it easy , all the mods you fit , except the ******* damn cargo expanders. thats was not hard was it?
and in english? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16260
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:20:00 -
[144] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:The principle of the EvE system is that high sec is relatively safe, low sec is unsafe and null is very unsafe. Not quite. The principle of the EVE systems is that in highsec, aggression comes at a cost; in lowsec, aggression comes at a short-time commitment; and that in nullsec, there is no cost at all.
In highsec, you can bet against the miserliness of other players not to attack you willy-nilly and build a second layer of personal security around that. In low, you can only bet against the unwillingness of other players to remain in lowsec, and thus have to provide more security for yourself. In null, all bets are off, and if you want any kind of security at all, you have to build it all for yourself from the ground up, preferably in collaboration with other players.
Quote:Being able to suicide a capital ship with a few cheap dessies repeatedly in High goes against that principle, devalues and imbalances the ship involved and is socially bad for EvE. Being able to suicide a capital ship in highsec means you lost the bet against other people's miserliness. Chances are that this happened because you chose to not actually make it a matter of miserliness after all, but rather swung it in the direction of greed. Put another way: you presented such a juicy target that the expected outcome of attacking you was no longer a loss, but a net gain.
Quote:The ability to remove months of a persons effort while putting in none yourself is bad for EvE imo. And that's a fair opinion. That's why the game is designed in such a way that you have to put in some effort yourself to remove the efforts of that other party. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:21:00 -
[145] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. well then tey can make it easy , all the mods you fit , except the ******* damn cargo expanders. thats was not hard was it? and in english?
that comment makes my day :) out of words ? so you blame sombody who cant write perfect english lol
im very sorry for my grammer and spelling but i think you know what i ment.
The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12798
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:21:00 -
[146] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. Who cares if you move them into highsec. As long as you can't assemble them which is easily fixed. CCP obviously do, which is why they're not allowed in highsec, unless they're grandfathered in.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
360
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:22:00 -
[147] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:As I said in my first post arguing against ganking freighters when the overriding principle supporting it is based on a refusal to acknowledge its misplaced and imbalanced position in the game gets everyone nowhere. In what way is it misplaced or imbalanced? Maybe this Gǣrefusal to acknowledgeGǥ this position is because the position has never actually been properly articulated or provenGǪ hmm? The principle of the EvE system is that high sec is relatively safe, low sec is unsafe and null is very unsafe. Being able to suicide a capital ship with a few cheap dessies repeatedly in High goes against that principle, devalues and imbalances the ship involved and is socially bad for EvE. I enjoy inflicting loss and harm on others in EvE however suiciding clearly crosses a line from gameplay to gaming the game. The ability to remove months of a persons effort while putting in none yourself is bad for EvE imo. Its clearly imbalanced. I know what you'll try to come back with, not interested really. you do realise you've just said it's unfair that a large group of players are needed to destroy one ship? and the unfairness is on the part of the one guy on his own. please tell me you realise what you've just said. In high sec without a war dec yes. As Oveur said many years ago, high sec is supposed to be relatively safe. There are mechanics in place in high for groups of PvPrs to attack players. Simply finding a workaround doesn't make it balanced. |
Dave Stark
3408
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:22:00 -
[148] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. Who cares if you move them into highsec. As long as you can't assemble them which is easily fixed.
you mean aside from the fact that your ill thought idea has knock on consequences that will require time and effort to fix when instead CCP can carry on ignoring the dumb people who fill their freighter with all their worldly goods and hit undock.
yeah i know, let's make a load of issues just to protect dumb people.
hint; ccp have never protected dumb people, that's why scamming is a perfectly legitimate profession in eve. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
360
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:23:00 -
[149] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. Who cares if you move them into highsec. As long as you can't assemble them which is easily fixed. CCP obviously do, which is why they're not allowed in highsec, unless they're grandfathered in. CCP don't want them being used in highsec. |
Dave Stark
3408
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:23:00 -
[150] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. well then tey can make it easy , all the mods you fit , except the ******* damn cargo expanders. thats was not hard was it? and in english? that comment makes my day :) out of words ? so you blame sombody who cant write perfect english lol im very sorry for my grammer and spelling but i think you know what i ment.
no, i'm genuinely trying to figure out what you're trying to say. |
|
Dave Stark
3408
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:24:00 -
[151] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:As I said in my first post arguing against ganking freighters when the overriding principle supporting it is based on a refusal to acknowledge its misplaced and imbalanced position in the game gets everyone nowhere. In what way is it misplaced or imbalanced? Maybe this Gǣrefusal to acknowledgeGǥ this position is because the position has never actually been properly articulated or provenGǪ hmm? The principle of the EvE system is that high sec is relatively safe, low sec is unsafe and null is very unsafe. Being able to suicide a capital ship with a few cheap dessies repeatedly in High goes against that principle, devalues and imbalances the ship involved and is socially bad for EvE. I enjoy inflicting loss and harm on others in EvE however suiciding clearly crosses a line from gameplay to gaming the game. The ability to remove months of a persons effort while putting in none yourself is bad for EvE imo. Its clearly imbalanced. I know what you'll try to come back with, not interested really. you do realise you've just said it's unfair that a large group of players are needed to destroy one ship? and the unfairness is on the part of the one guy on his own. please tell me you realise what you've just said. In high sec without a war dec yes. As Oveur said many years ago, high sec is supposed to be relatively safe. There are mechanics in place in high for groups of PvPrs to attack players. Simply finding a workaround doesn't make it balanced.
make war decs instant then.
this removes suicide ganking and freighter pilots will be happy. right?
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3549
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:25:00 -
[152] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different.
So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander.
Lugalbandak wrote:I agree with ziona , you used to have bs fleets , and you make it sound ALL the ppl gonna fit cargo expanders , but thats a lie .
Really? After the barge buff the majority of miners still use cargohold expanding rigs even though barges have a dedicated ore hold. I have no idea what you're trying to say about the Battleship fleets.
Lugalbandak wrote:Like she said you biased and you dont want ccp nerf your incom wich i can understand , but after shuttle to have ships that cannot be fitted is plain stupid
My personal income comes from AFK ratting in 5 Ishtars in different systems for around 300m an hour. I make nothing from ganking freighters because my motive isn't profit.
Lugalbandak wrote:edit: i dotn know what you mean by heavily nerfing , but it sounds like after your patch you cant even haul a i hub anymore
The cargohold of a freighter would have to be nerfed by a certain percentage to make up for every low slot or rig slot that it gained. To haul iHubs & Station egg's the freighter pilot would have to fit cargohold expanders.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
360
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:27:00 -
[153] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. hint; ccp have never protected dumb people, that's why scamming is a perfectly legitimate profession in eve. They protect nullbears quite a bit with all their invulnerable deployables. Im guessing because they assume nullbears are too dumb to defend them.
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:27:00 -
[154] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. Who cares if you move them into highsec. As long as you can't assemble them which is easily fixed. CCP obviously do, which is why they're not allowed in highsec, unless they're grandfathered in. CCP don't want them being used in highsec.
Then explain why a pilot who has had his combat capital ship reimbursed has to move it out of highsec as soon as possible? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:28:00 -
[155] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different.
So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander.
nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved
and i ment your tear income
edit: meh wrong qoute The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
553
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:28:00 -
[156] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Bring logi.
Either you have no idea at all, what you are talking about or you are a bald faced liar, flat out trolling people.
Lugalbandak wrote: So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander.
nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved
and i ment your tear income
edit: meh wrong qoute
In addition they could change packaged sizes of carriers and Dreads. This tired old excuse for not giving rigs and slots to Freighters died when they adjusted the M3 volume of a Cap ship assembly array because 2 of the freighters required freighter 5 to carry them. |
Dave Stark
3409
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:30:00 -
[157] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different. So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander. nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved and i ment your tear income edit: meh wrong qoute
"hey guys, let's let cargo carrying ships fit all modules except cargo expanders"
no wonder i didn't get what you were saying, it's completely backwards. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:31:00 -
[158] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:As Oveur said many years ago, high sec is supposed to be relatively safe. There are mechanics in place in high for groups of PvPrs to attack players. Simply finding a workaround doesn't make it balanced.
He also said that Titans aren't supposed to have a use 7 years ago. Multiple CCP Devs have more recently said that highsec was never supposed to be safe. I'm more inclined to believe the more recent statements as opposed to the statements from that guy 7 years ago. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:31:00 -
[159] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different. So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander. nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved and i ment your tear income edit: meh wrong qoute "hey guys, let's let cargo carrying ships fit all modules except cargo expanders" no wonder i didn't get what you were saying, it's completely backwards.
No it got a huge base cargo bay , no need for extra cargo space , just tank or agile mods The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:32:00 -
[160] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different. So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander. nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved and i ment your tear income edit: meh wrong qoute "hey guys, let's let cargo carrying ships fit all modules except cargo expanders" no wonder i didn't get what you were saying, it's completely backwards.
He's a renter, they don't really know what's going on. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:33:00 -
[161] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different. So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander. nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved and i ment your tear income edit: meh wrong qoute "hey guys, let's let cargo carrying ships fit all modules except cargo expanders" no wonder i didn't get what you were saying, it's completely backwards. No it got a huge base cargo bay , no need for extra cargo space , just tank or agile mods
Or you could get your buddy to double web you instead. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16260
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:33:00 -
[162] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:No it got a huge base cargo bay , no need for extra cargo space , just tank or agile mods It also has a huge hull buffer. No need for extra tank.
That just leaves agility mods, and if that's all you want to be able to fit, why not just ask them to improve the agility of the thing? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:33:00 -
[163] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different. So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander. nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved and i ment your tear income edit: meh wrong qoute "hey guys, let's let cargo carrying ships fit all modules except cargo expanders" no wonder i didn't get what you were saying, it's completely backwards. He's a renter, they don't really know what's going on.
a after the spelling comments , we get the renting comments. +1 for you The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
Dave Stark
3409
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:34:00 -
[164] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:[quote=Lugalbandak]Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? its freighter , it hauls large stuff. orca is something different. So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander. nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved and i ment your tear income edit: meh wrong qoute "hey guys, let's let cargo carrying ships fit all modules except cargo expanders" no wonder i didn't get what you were saying, it's completely backwards. No it got a huge base cargo bay , no need for extra cargo space , just tank or agile mods
if you need agility or tank, may i suggest training the relevant skills instead of asking ccp to massively recode the game in completely backwards ways to achieve the same thing? |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:35:00 -
[165] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:No it got a huge base cargo bay , no need for extra cargo space , just tank or agile mods It also has a huge hull buffer. No need for extra tank. That just leaves agility mods, and if that's all you want to be able to fit, why not just ask them to improve the agility of the thing?
nope , gonna fit the nuke bomb from harry The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
211
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:35:00 -
[166] - Quote
I agree with op. Not that i am against ganking (i did some), but freighter are easy prey. I'd say, give them a low slot. If the pilot is a moron, he will fit a cargo expander (...) and if he has any brain, he will fit a damage control. I do not buy a freighter because even if it is empty, someone WILL gank it someday for the lol. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:36:00 -
[167] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Bring logi. Either you have no idea at all, what you are talking about or you are a bald faced liar, flat out trolling people. Lugalbandak wrote: So it wouldn't be able to haul packaged capital ships in to highsec after putting on a cargohold expander.
nope , i already explained , freighters could then fit all the modules except the cargo expanders , problem solved
and i ment your tear income
edit: meh wrong qoute
In addition they could change packaged sizes of carriers and Dreads. This tired old excuse for not giving rigs and slots to Freighters died when they adjusted the M3 volume of a Cap ship assembly array because 2 of the freighters required freighter 5 to carry them.
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Lugalbandak
Anunnaku Industrial Corp. Northern Associates.
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:37:00 -
[168] - Quote
bloodknight2 wrote:I agree with op. Not that i am against ganking (i did some), but freighter are easy prey. I'd say, give them a low slot. If the pilot is a moron, he will fit a cargo expander (...) and if he has any brain, he will fit a damage control. I do not buy a freighter because even if it is empty, someone WILL gank it someday for the lol.
thank you , a sane person here The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
553
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:37:00 -
[169] - Quote
So much propaganda and misinformation in this thread it makes my head spin. |
Dave Stark
3410
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:38:00 -
[170] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:bloodknight2 wrote:I agree with op. Not that i am against ganking (i did some), but freighter are easy prey. I'd say, give them a low slot. If the pilot is a moron, he will fit a cargo expander (...) and if he has any brain, he will fit a damage control. I do not buy a freighter because even if it is empty, someone WILL gank it someday for the lol. thank you , a sane person here
"you don't agree with me, you must not be sane". |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:38:00 -
[171] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote:a after the spelling comments , we get the renting comments. +1 for you
Thanks, just wait until I park my guys in the system your corporation is renting.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
360
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:39:00 -
[172] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
make war decs instant then.
this removes suicide ganking and freighter pilots will be happy. right?
Lets remove reinforcement timers too. If you want to be able to instantly remove a 6 bill isk ship from somebody without warning let us remove your **** in null without your handholding timers. Oh wait that wouldnt be fair to YOU and EvE should be fair in null, just not high sec right :) you guys are sad |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12801
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:39:00 -
[173] - Quote
Lugalbandak wrote: well then tey can make it easy , all the mods you fit , except the ******* damn cargo expanders. thats was not hard was it?
edit: BATTLE CHARON WHOEIIIIII
How would you tank a Charon? The base stats are, excluding resists : Shield 6000 HP Armour 20000 HP Structure 106250 HP CPU 1.15 PG 1.15
You can't have low slots, because that would allow a cargo expander, which in turn allows the transport of packaged capships in highsec. No low slots means no armour tank, and no Damage Control. Preventing the fitting of a cargo expander to one class of ship is an unreasonable amount of work just to try and cure stupidity.
So you're left with mid slots, 6000 base HP on shield puts it somewhere between the base stats of a shield tanking BC and BS, however there's not enough CPU or PG to fit anything there.
So basically what you're asking for is for CCP to not balance, but completely rework freighters. All because people insist on stuffing the things to the brim, going afk, and autopiloting though chokepoint systems that are renowned for being gank alley.
I think that's somewhat unreasonable.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
553
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:40:00 -
[174] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Or you could get your buddy to double web you instead.
Another Goon shitpost.
fleet and corp web creates a suspect flag so you need to sit on a gate with a timer, every gate and hold cloak in the forward system to run web ops now.
Current freighter defense is to pray. |
Dave Stark
3410
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:40:00 -
[175] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
make war decs instant then.
this removes suicide ganking and freighter pilots will be happy. right?
Lets remove reinforcement timers too. If you want to be able to instantly remove a 6 bill isk ship from somebody without warning let us remove your **** in null without your handholding timers. Oh wait that wouldnt be fair to YOU and EvE should be fair in null, just not high sec right :) you guys are sad
i fail to see the relevance of reinforcement timers to this discussion. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12801
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:43:00 -
[176] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
Or you could get your buddy to double web you instead.
Another Goon shitpost. fleet and corp web creates a suspect flag so you need to sit on a gate with a timer, every gate and hold cloak in the forward system to run web ops now. Current freighter defense is to pray. Corp webs gain an aggression timer? So it's ok for me to explode my corpmates, but not web them? How does that work?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:46:00 -
[177] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.
And they can do it again. Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore. |
Dave Stark
3412
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:47:00 -
[178] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.
And they can do it again. Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore.
Tell me, do you believe what you're posting or are you trolling? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
365
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:47:00 -
[179] - Quote
They should make carriers blappable by a small gang of dessies. Thatd balance it up a bit. Imagine the tears lol |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12804
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:48:00 -
[180] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.
And they can do it again. Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore. Freighters still do their job fine, they can still haul very large volumes of cargo, in fact they can still haul the same volume of cargo as they did 2 years ago.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Dave Stark
3412
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:49:00 -
[181] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:They should make carriers blappable by a small gang of dessies. Thatd balance it up a bit. Imagine the tears lol
they are. there's nothing stopping destroyers shooting carriers. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12804
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:50:00 -
[182] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: He's a renter, they don't really know what's going on.
This is the quality of your renters? You guys are slipping
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:51:00 -
[183] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.
And they can do it again. Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore. Tell me, do you believe what you're posting or are you trolling?
I know what I am posting. You might not like what I am posting but everything I am posting is tested fact.
I ran logi on a freighter being ganked. Bugshit on a bumper. It's hull tanked I did web runs on a freighter and stared at the cool down timers, I know you don't need a capital skill and can only skill Agi to limited amounts on a freighter
I know what I am talking about and you can kiss my ass. I'm right.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
365
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:53:00 -
[184] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:They should make carriers blappable by a small gang of dessies. Thatd balance it up a bit. Imagine the tears lol they are. there's nothing stopping destroyers shooting carriers. Lol only their millions of EHP. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:53:00 -
[185] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
Or you could get your buddy to double web you instead.
Another Goon shitpost. fleet and corp web creates a suspect flag so you need to sit on a gate with a timer, every gate and hold cloak in the forward system to run web ops now. Current freighter defense is to pray.
Fleet web will get you concorded. Corp web will give you a 60 second weapons timer which is fine since freighter warp times are really slow anyway. If out of corp, invite to duel. Apparently giving people the correct information is shitposting. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3412
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:53:00 -
[186] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.
And they can do it again. Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore. Tell me, do you believe what you're posting or are you trolling? I know what I am posting. You might not like what I am posting but everything I am posting is tested fact. I ran logi on a freighter being ganked. Bugshit on a bumper. It's hull tanked I did web runs on a freighter and stared at the cool down timers, I know you don't need a capital skill and can only skill Agi to limited amounts on a freighter I know what I am talking about and you can kiss my ass. I'm right.
really? so a freighter that can carry over 800k m3 of cargo isn't doing it's job as a hauler now?
well, damn. i never knew. |
Dave Stark
3412
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:54:00 -
[187] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:They should make carriers blappable by a small gang of dessies. Thatd balance it up a bit. Imagine the tears lol they are. there's nothing stopping destroyers shooting carriers. Lol only their millions of EHP.
remind me how the EHP value of a ship prevents it being shot at. I seem to be unfamiliar with that game mechanic. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:55:00 -
[188] - Quote
Skydell wrote:I know what I am talking about and you can kiss my ass. I'm right.
No you don't, going by the information you've supplied. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:57:00 -
[189] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: He's a renter, they don't really know what's going on.
This is the quality of your renters? You guys are slipping
NCdot renters. I don't think there's a rule on whether our renters will be allowed to post. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12806
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:58:00 -
[190] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: He's a renter, they don't really know what's going on.
This is the quality of your renters? You guys are slipping NCdot renters. I don't think there's a rule on whether our renters will be allowed to post. I apologise for casting aspersions on the quality of your potential renters.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3552
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:00:00 -
[191] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.
And they can do it again. Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore.
Because a green killboard makes you awesome, just ask -a- The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:00:00 -
[192] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:They should make carriers blappable by a small gang of dessies. Thatd balance it up a bit. Imagine the tears lol they are. there's nothing stopping destroyers shooting carriers. Lol only their millions of EHP. remind me how the EHP value of a ship prevents it being shot at. I seem to be unfamiliar with that game mechanic. I said blappable, as in destroyable in less than a minute like freighters which are also caps. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3554
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:04:00 -
[193] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:They should make carriers blappable by a small gang of dessies. Thatd balance it up a bit. Imagine the tears lol they are. there's nothing stopping destroyers shooting carriers. Lol only their millions of EHP. remind me how the EHP value of a ship prevents it being shot at. I seem to be unfamiliar with that game mechanic. I said blappable, as in destroyable in less than a minute like freighters which are also caps.
With enough destroyers anything is possible. There is a difference between Freighters & carriers though. One is designed for combat, the other is not. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12807
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:05:00 -
[194] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: I said blappable, as in destroyable in less than a minute like freighters which are also caps.
Anything is blappable, it just needs you to do the math and bring the appropriate numbers and firepower to do so, it's as true for freighters as it is for carriers, or any other ship for that matter.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3416
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:05:00 -
[195] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I said blappable, as in destroyable in less than a minute like freighters which are also caps.
i fail to see how reducing the tank of other capital ships is relevant to the discussion? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3554
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:11:00 -
[196] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I said blappable, as in destroyable in less than a minute like freighters which are also caps. i fail to see how reducing the tank of other capital ships is relevant to the discussion?
It isn't. People do that when you continually refute their statements. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3815
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:19:00 -
[197] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:hint; ccp have never protected dumb people Mining barge buff? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12807
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:19:00 -
[198] - Quote
Addendum to my previous post.
quick back of envelope calculation (all skills at V) Thanatos : Approx 1,200,000 EHP including resists Time allowable for kill : 60 seconds T2 Gank Catalyst DPS (inc overload) : Approx 685
685dps*60seconds=41,100 damage 1,200,000ehp/41,100damage=30 (rounded up from 29.19)
30 Catalysts under ideal conditions should be able to take down a Thanatos in circa 60 seconds.
Mallak Azaria or Tippia, I'd appreciate it if you could check my math, I could be well off.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16261
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:20:00 -
[199] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I said blappable, as in destroyable in less than a minute like freighters which are also caps. i fail to see how reducing the tank of other capital ships is relevant to the discussion? It isn't. People do that when you continually refute their statements. It's more that he mistakenly applies an absolute timeframe rather than a relative one that takes context into account.
A carrier in low or nullsec is easy to kill before backup arrives and kills you right back. If backup arrives early or is already in place, you will suddenly have a much harder time. A freighter in highsec is easy to kill before backup arrives and kills you right back. If backup arrives early or is already in place, you will suddenly have a much harder time.
Both are balanced properly in relation to their respective surroundings. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dave Stark
3416
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:21:00 -
[200] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Dave Stark wrote:hint; ccp have never protected dumb people Mining barge buff?
first efforts at rebalancing ships. it went wrong. ccp fozzie said in his tmc interview that he wants to go back and do them again.
that wasn't CCP pandering to the dumb, that was CCP trying to rebalance ships and getting it wrong. |
|
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:23:00 -
[201] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Numbers very relevant; 15 brutix's, for example, stops being profitable in most cases. No it isn't. people will still gank freighters, they will just use different ships if destroyers get nerfed in to the ground. Then surely you have no complaints if Freighters/ect. are adjusted such that it takes ~900m to gank them with a reasonable number of people? Why do we need to adjust freighters? Nobody has actually answered this question yet.
Nothing needs to change in my opinion, the ships can survive its just some players are not interested in using their freighters unless they are full or unwilling to take the steps that are needed to help them survive or travel more quickly.
It is pure Darwinian evolution change with the environment or die . CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3554
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:24:00 -
[202] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Addendum to my previous post. quick back of envelope calculation (all skills at V) Thanatos : Approx 1,200,000 EHP including resistsTime allowable for kill : 60 seconds T2 Gank Catalyst DPS (inc overload) : Approx 685 685dps*60seconds=41,100 damage 1,200,000ehp/41,100damage=30 (rounded up from 29.19) 30 Catalysts under ideal conditions should be able to take down a Thanatos in circa 60 seconds. Mallak Azaria or Tippia, I'd appreciate it if you could check my math, I haven't included armour repairs.
Tippia will probably beat me to it, but if not I'll check it when I get home. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:25:00 -
[203] - Quote
Pretending you don't know what Im saying to avoid the comparison. Priceless . |
Dave Stark
3418
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:27:00 -
[204] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Pretending you don't know what Im saying to avoid the comparison. Priceless .
we know exactly what you're saying. that's pretty much the problem. |
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:28:00 -
[205] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship?
Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk.
Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo).
Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting.
With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3815
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:29:00 -
[206] - Quote
Reading through all this crap makes me fear that every single one of you turns dumber and dumber with every post.
Except those who fail at life, because they don't understand the concept of self responsibility. These already maxed out. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:29:00 -
[207] - Quote
How about every time a cap ship is solo it reverts to 300,000 EHP. If it dies (cus it was ratting) its the pilots fault for not having remote reps, scouts, webbers and instantly deployables cyno alts. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:31:00 -
[208] - Quote
Since hi-sec is so big, has so many people in it -and is (according to the whiners) 95% filled with gankers and griefers- I can't help but wonder where are the white knights?
Seems pretty easy to whine nonsensically about things like RL navies and EHP ratios while completely ignoring personal responsibility, or teamwork, things gankers are comfortable with.
Much easier to post a thread, start an argument, than actually do something. You think RL navies and coast guards are full of NPCs who fulfill their responsibilities because of code? No, they are full of real people who are there because they want to make a real difference.
If gankers are so prevalent, you should be able to provide content for dozens or hundreds of white knight types, patrolling the space lanes, ensuring evildoers get their just desserts (or some other polarized nonsense). Take some personal responsibility, would ya? Just for one moment, stop the flow of tears, adjust the whine down to a minimum, and use your brain. I've got a few amazing ideas perfectly suited for people looking to make hi-sec a 'safer' place; but if you're unwilling to use a webbing ship, a scout, or the smallest modicum of common sense, I'm willing to bet that is out of your reach.
Gankers=knowledgeable, connected people who organise together for a common goal
Freighter Victims=insular, unorganised, or ignorant players unwilling to work together or do anything to change their circumstance (and the occasional unlucky bastard I'm sure =)
|
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:32:00 -
[209] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:How about every time a cap ship is solo it reverts to 300,000 EHP. If it dies (cus it was ratting) its the pilots fault for not having remote reps, scouts, webbers and instantly deployables cyno alts. Are you implying ratting carriers don't get ganked? Oh god. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:35:00 -
[210] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:How about every time a cap ship is solo it reverts to 300,000 EHP. If it dies (cus it was ratting) its the pilots fault for not having remote reps, scouts, webbers and instantly deployables cyno alts. Are you implying ratting carriers don't get ganked? Im implying theyre a lot more survivable when they're ganked than a freighter in supposedly safer high sec. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12808
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:35:00 -
[211] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:Since hi-sec is so big, has so many people in it -and is (according to the whiners) 95% filled with gankers and griefers- I can't help but wonder where are the white knights?
Seems pretty easy to whine nonsensically about things like RL navies and EHP ratios while completely ignoring personal responsibility, or teamwork, things gankers are comfortable with.
Much easier to post a thread, start an argument, than actually do something. You think RL navies and coast guards are full of NPCs who fulfill their responsibilities because of code? No, they are full of real people who are there because they want to make a real difference.
If gankers are so prevalent, you should be able to provide content for dozens or hundreds of white knight types, patrolling the space lanes, ensuring evildoers get their just desserts (or some other polarized nonsense). Take some personal responsibility, would ya? Just for one moment, stop the flow of tears, adjust the whine down to a minimum, and use your brain. I've got a few amazing ideas perfectly suited for people looking to make hi-sec a 'safer' place; but if you're unwilling to use a webbing ship, a scout, or the smallest modicum of common sense, I'm willing to bet that is out of your reach.
Gankers=knowledgeable, connected people who organise together for a common goal
Freighter Victims=insular, unorganised, or ignorant players unwilling to work together or do anything to change their circumstance (and the occasional unlucky bastard I'm sure =)
Teamwork and collective effort is an unfamiliar concept to some people.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:39:00 -
[212] - Quote
Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP.
the gankers brought friends; why didn't the freighter? you can't say "it's not balanced" when you're talking about 1 player vs more than 1 player. a single web alt would have helped it run away, for example.
cost isn't a balancing factor, stop pretending that it is.
you don't have forever to scan it, at all, especially if it has webbing assistance.
a low risk activity that guarantees you the loss of your ship, and only a 50% chance on loot? and there's "low" risk? are you sure about that?
it makes no sense to buff freighter EHP, at all. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:40:00 -
[213] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:How about every time a cap ship is solo it reverts to 300,000 EHP. If it dies (cus it was ratting) its the pilots fault for not having remote reps, scouts, webbers and instantly deployables cyno alts. Are you implying ratting carriers don't get ganked? Im implying theyre a lot more survivable when they're ganked than a freighter in supposedly safer high sec.
oh, really? a ship designed for combat has more survivability than a ship designed to be an empty box with a warp drive?
tell me more about this clearly shocking revelation. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:41:00 -
[214] - Quote
I wonder how long 15 catalysts would last against a smartbombing battleship or two. Oh god. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:43:00 -
[215] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP. the gankers brought friends; why didn't the freighter? you can't say "it's not balanced" when you're talking about 1 player vs more than 1 player. a single web alt would have helped it run away, for example. cost isn't a balancing factor, stop pretending that it is. you don't have forever to scan it, at all, especially if it has webbing assistance. a low risk activity that guarantees you the loss of your ship, and only a 50% chance on loot? and there's "low" risk? are you sure about that? it makes no sense to buff freighter EHP, at all. Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:43:00 -
[216] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:I wonder how long 15 catalysts would last against a smartbombing battleship or two.
a catalyst has 3.9k ehp.
I'll let you do the math. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:44:00 -
[217] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed.
ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12808
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:44:00 -
[218] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Im implying theyre a lot more survivable when they're ganked than a freighter in supposedly safer high sec.
Statistically speaking, given the disparity of population numbers between highsec (80+% of characters) and everywhere else, highsec is a lot safer, unless of course you happen to be afk and/or in a loot pinata.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
I guess 2 battleships could easily alpha the whole fleet of Catalysts for roughly the same cost. Oh god. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
237
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:46:00 -
[220] - Quote
Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP.
Its a multiplayer pvp game. You consent to the risk of PVP the moment you undock. If you lose 1v15, then that is your fault. If you are 2v15, then chances of your survival greatly increase. It is highsec, not perfectsec.
You can reliably warp to 0 so one side of the gate is _very_ safe, on the other side, their bumper is not going to be on top of your freighter (on average he'll be several kms away), and you can own webs that can reach half across the gate sphere, and you get to choose when you freighter uncloaks - ie you can be within webrange at the instant your freighter appears.
By webbing your freighter its isk/hr picks up, ie the webber account is not an entirely dead overhead account either.
|
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:49:00 -
[221] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:50:00 -
[222] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.
so you're making things up with no proof to back up your claims? sure thing.
again, price isn't a balancing factor. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:50:00 -
[223] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Traedar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? Because the 1 ship is designed to be unable to defend itself and be unable to run away. And because it can be kept from warping easily with no risk. Also because the 15 ships required cost a few hundred millions and the 1 ship costs 6 billion. That's if you fit the 15 ships expensively, I'm guessing many freighter gankings are much cheaper (meta mods and faction ammo). Suicide ganking freighters in high sec, with their slowness, is probably the most low risk ganking in the game. You have next to forever to scan the thing as it aligns, and even if it's not AFK you can easily organize your ganking buddies since it is so slow in warp. Nevermind if he's autopiloting. With smaller ship classes getting damage buffs it probably makes sense to buff freighter EHP. Its a multiplayer pvp game. You consent to the risk of PVP the moment you undock. If you lose 1v15, then that is your fault. If you are 2v15, then chances of your survival greatly increase. It is highsec, not perfectsec. You can reliably warp to 0 so one side of the gate is _very_ safe, on the other side, their bumper is not going to be on top of your freighter (on average he'll be several kms away), and you can own webs that can reach half across the gate sphere, and you get to choose when you freighter uncloaks - ie you can be within webrange at the instant your freighter appears. By webbing your freighter its isk/hr picks up, ie the webber account is not an entirely dead overhead account either.
Common sense, on my forums??!?!?
rage. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:51:00 -
[224] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.
Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12811
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:54:00 -
[225] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. It's an Infinity post, assume ill-informed troll until proved otherwise.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
229
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:55:00 -
[226] - Quote
anyone confirm/deny cost is and always was a balancing factor in eve |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3555
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 13:58:00 -
[227] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.
The Hulk costs more to produce than the Mackinaw, has far less survivability & performs only marginally better at it's task. You are again taking the statements of one CCP guy from nearly a decade ago & believing them to be more valid than the Devs who are working on EVE now. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:07:00 -
[228] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. You're confusing factor and product.
No, cost is not a factor in balance. It can never adjust an imbalance. Something that is crap remains crap no matter how cheap it is. Something that is overpowered remains overpowered no matter how expensive it is. Players will always grind the money required to get the overpowered stuff and will never waste money on junk. Forgetting this simple fact is how Titans came about: it was GǣokGǥ that they were massively OP because, hey, they cost so much that there would never be that many of themGǪ except that cost is not a factor in balance, so that high cost didn't stop them from being common as clovers.
What you're talking about is setting a cost or availability that is reasonable compared to how the ship is balanced. Balance determines cost, not the other way around.
On top of this, having learnt the lesson with titans, CCP has adopted a cost design where marginal improvements in ability come at exponential increases in cost or rarity, and that GÇ£abilityGÇ¥ does not really cross roles. Cruisers and barges do not exist on the same ability scale, so even though both are massively better than the other, depending on what you're comparing, there is no real connection between how much they cost. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:11:00 -
[229] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:14:00 -
[230] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. You're confusing factor and product. No, cost is not a factor in balance. It can never adjust an imbalance. Something that is crap remains crap no matter how cheap it is. Something that is overpowered remains overpowered no matter how expensive it is. Players will always grind the money required to get the overpowered stuff and will never waste money on junk. Forgetting this simple fact is how Titans came about: it was GǣokGǥ that they were massively OP because, hey, they cost so much that there would never be that many of themGǪ except that cost is not a factor in balance, so that high cost didn't stop them from being common as clovers. What you're talking about is setting a cost or availability that is reasonable compared to how the ship is balanced. Balance determines cost, not the other way around. On top of this, having learnt the lesson with titans, CCP has adopted a cost design where marginal improvements in ability come at exponential increases in cost or rarity, and that GǣabilityGǥ does not really cross roles. Cruisers and barges do not exist on the same ability scale, so even though both are massively better than the other, depending on what you're comparing, there is no real connection between how much they cost. There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. |
|
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:14:00 -
[231] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Eram Fidard wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.
nobody fails to see it; we're just pointing it out that cost isn't a balancing factor. |
IDGAD
Get in the van I have candy.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:16:00 -
[232] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:If killing freighters in highsec is so easy, why aren't more people doing it (no one has actually answered this yet). Freighters & JF's do have the ability to survive a suicide gank attempt but a good majority of the pilots would rather autopilot their giant cargohold through highsec & complain when the inevitable happens.
You claim that there is no risk for suicide gankers. This is wrong on so many levels.
Edit: Isk-tanking is a horrible idea by the way.
The largest deterrent for suicide gankers is not actually concord, it's other corps that have WAY more time than you do that will constantly watch for suicide gankers. These groups will find and kill your own freighter that loots because as soon as the freighter loots, it can be shot. If not for these opportunists, freighter ganking could be done with about 200 mill in catalysts easily. So funny enough, a broken ship (the freighter) became a balanced one due to savvy players who know how to make a quick buck lol |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:17:00 -
[233] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost.
so why aren't people ganking in frigates? |
IDGAD
Get in the van I have candy.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:18:00 -
[234] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates?
Because destroyers offer better DPS per cost than frigates.
You can get twice the damage in a dessie than you can in a frig, and they are not that much more expensive. You do not fully fit a gank dessie, you just use meta/T1 damage mods, and usually meta guns with caldari navy antimatter. You get balls close to the freighter and gank it. Dessies are the best ships to gank with IF you can get enough people to get together and use them. It takes quite a few of them, and that is why some smaller groups use tornados and such for ganking. Goons when they did their massive freighter ganks used dessies because if you have so many players, any other ship is ******** to use. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:19:00 -
[235] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. People do gank in cruisers.
Oh god. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
366
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:19:00 -
[236] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:19:00 -
[237] - Quote
IDGAD wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because destroyers offer better DPS per cost than frigates.
so it's dps, not cost.
got it. |
Dave Stark
3419
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:21:00 -
[238] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost.
so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:22:00 -
[239] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE. Maller GÇö Built cost: ~8M GåÆ Survivability: annoyingly high GåÆ Gankability: none, it's a trap! Crow GÇö Build cost: ~11M GåÆ Survivability: very low GåÆ Gankability: #&%Gé¼# sit still you bastard! Iteron V GÇö Build cost: ~2M GåÆ Survivability: mediocre GåÆ Gankability: high.
R-¦: Not highGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3555
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:23:00 -
[240] - Quote
IDGAD wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If killing freighters in highsec is so easy, why aren't more people doing it (no one has actually answered this yet). Freighters & JF's do have the ability to survive a suicide gank attempt but a good majority of the pilots would rather autopilot their giant cargohold through highsec & complain when the inevitable happens.
You claim that there is no risk for suicide gankers. This is wrong on so many levels.
Edit: Isk-tanking is a horrible idea by the way. The largest deterrent for suicide gankers is not actually concord, it's other corps that have WAY more time than you do that will constantly watch for suicide gankers. These groups will find and kill your own freighter that loots because as soon as the freighter loots, it can be shot. If not for these opportunists, freighter ganking could be done with about 200 mill in catalysts easily. So funny enough, a broken ship (the freighter) became a balanced one due to savvy players who know how to make a quick buck lol
I already know these thing because, you know, I actually gank freighters. I also know that with enough people logging in it costs about 60m to gank a freighter. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12821
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:24:00 -
[241] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. Cost is only one factor, lock time, damage output, training time etc are others.
To say that cost is the reason people use destroyers for ganking is dishonest, other factors are in play. Other ships are also used, the Brutix is quite popular, so is the Tornado.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
IDGAD
Get in the van I have candy.
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:24:00 -
[242] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost.
Anyone ganking in a cruiser is pretty stupid. Yes you can do it, but the only possible reason you would do it is if you refer to my previous post. It's only viable if you KNOW you can only gank with the extra DPS a cruiser gets over a dessie and are FORCED to use a cruiser because you don't have enough players to use dessies, but have more players than enough then would be required for tornados. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:25:00 -
[243] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost. Are you being serious lol? When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. You think that was accidental?
If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12821
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:27:00 -
[244] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.
This is forum gold.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3420
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:28:00 -
[245] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:There is when it comes to ganking. Why don't people gank in cruisers but instead use dessies. Cost. so why aren't people ganking in frigates? Because dessies put out the DPS of a cruiser for 5 times less the cost. so clearly; cost isn't a balancing factor if they do equal dps without equal cost. Are you being serious lol? When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. You think that was accidental? If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.
yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it?
smaller ships will always be more cost effective; ccp have stated several times that for a linear increase in performance you pay an exponential cost in price. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:29:00 -
[246] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. They still are. The problem is that people have come to believe that 5bn Gëá pi+¦ataGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jim Era
7491
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:29:00 -
[247] - Quote
I think its about time I put the WatGäó in here |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:29:00 -
[248] - Quote
I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would?
If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. If cost to gank increases ganks decrease lol. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:30:00 -
[249] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
If people are using Dessies because theyre cost effective rather than destroyers than they're selecting them based on COST ffs.
This is forum gold. Lol you know what I mean. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:31:00 -
[250] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Thats balance based on cost. It isn't.
Oh god. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12821
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:31:00 -
[251] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE. Maller GÇö Built cost: ~8M GåÆ Survivability: annoyingly high GåÆ Gankability: none, it's a trap! Crow GÇö Build cost: ~11M GåÆ Survivability: very low GåÆ Gankability: #&%Gé¼# sit still you bastard! Iteron V GÇö Build cost: ~2M GåÆ Survivability: mediocre GåÆ Gankability: high. R-¦: Not highGǪ
I'd like to see the build cost of a Procurer vs the build cost of a Mackinaw, the first is cheap as chips and damn hard to kill if fitted right, the second can be turned to scrap in highsec by <5 Catalysts regardless of tank
Build cost != Survivability as illustrated by both Tippia's examples and my own.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:33:00 -
[252] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:When CCP released freighters it was cost prohibitive to gank them unless they were a pi+¦ata. They still are. The problem is that people have come to believe that 5bn Gëá pi+¦ataGǪ No Tippia, you know as well as I do that when freighters were released the only feasible way of profitably ganking one was an expensive battleship fleet. Now you can do it with the second smallest least expensive low skill ship in the game. |
Dave Stark
3420
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:34:00 -
[253] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If cost to gank increases ganks decrease lol.
actually; the cost is irrelevant.
know what'd lower the amount of ganks? less people undocking with a cargo hold full of shiny stuff. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:34:00 -
[254] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor.
Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:35:00 -
[255] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it?
I know it's hard to wrap one's head around, but some developers balance based on two or even THREE factors. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:37:00 -
[256] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it).
[citation needed]
I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. |
Dave Stark
3421
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:37:00 -
[257] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yes i'm being serious. if 2 ships do the same thing, but one costs more than another then clearly cost isn't a balancing factor is it? I know it's hard to wrap one's head around, but some developers balance based on two or even THREE factors.
and cost isn't one of them. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:42:00 -
[258] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor. Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it). In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking?
Would my second scenario increase ganking?
Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1625
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:44:00 -
[259] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? Oh god. |
Dave Stark
3421
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:45:00 -
[260] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?
yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:45:00 -
[261] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor. Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it). In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking? Would my second scenario increase ganking? Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking?
Cost does not factor in to ship balance, which was the original point made. Twisting it's meaning does not make you correct. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:47:00 -
[262] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal?
I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:48:00 -
[263] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking? Would my second scenario increase ganking? In either of your scenarios, the balance wouldn't change because the value of both the ships (on both sides) and the cargo would vary along with the build changes. So you'd still be talking about a 2x ISK ship being blown up by 0.5x ISK worth of ships, and we'd be talking about vastly different cargo compositions.
Quote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? I'm still saying that cost is not a factor in balance because balance is how ships fare against each other. What you're talking about is still a change in ROI, not balance.
S Byerley wrote:I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. No, it does not follow because just because cost isn't a balancing factor doesn't mean that all ships and items are meant to have the same availability and utility. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dave Stark
3425
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:49:00 -
[264] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.
cost not being a balancing factor doesn't mean everything should cost the game, however you're obviously trolling due the fact that it's all you have left after every terrible point of yours has been refuted, so i'm not sure why i'm pointing it out. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:49:00 -
[265] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost.
Could you elaborate on why the game should be streamlined in such a way? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12828
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:49:00 -
[266] - Quote
The math is simple
If the potential value of your cargo > the value of the ships required to take your cargo from you, then you have a chance of exploding and losing your cargo.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Din Chao
355
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:52:00 -
[267] - Quote
ITT: Ganking is purely for the purpose of short-term, instant profit. There is no meta-game here. Move along. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:53:00 -
[268] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :) |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:55:00 -
[269] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I'm pretty sure you guys won't get it so let me ask you something.
If you had to buy 10 battleships to gank a freighter with 1 billion in loot would you gank it for profit. How many people would? If you could buy 10 battleships for 100 million to gank a freighter for 1 billion in loot would you gank it. How many people would?
Thats balance based on cost. No, that's just ROI. In fact, the balance hasn't changed at all there, which just highlights that the difference in cost in not a factor. Balance based on cost is when costing 10+ù more inherently means that it is 10+ù better (or reasonably close to it). In my example if developers wanted to increase or decrease ganking would my first scenario decrease ganking? Would my second scenario increase ganking? Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? Cost does not factor in to ship balance, which was the original point made. Twisting it's meaning does not make you correct. This thread is about ganking. What's being twisted here :) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12832
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:55:00 -
[270] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :) Profitability of a gank != balance.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:56:00 -
[271] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost. Could you elaborate on why the game should be streamlined in such a way?
Tiericide mate.
What purpose does cost serve?
Dave Stark wrote:however you're obviously trolling due the fact that it's all you have left after every terrible point of yours has been refuted, so i'm not sure why i'm pointing it out.
No reasoning with people who think they deserve some of the highest income in the game for high sec ganking in destroyers. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:57:00 -
[272] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Riot Girl wrote:S Byerley wrote:I vote we make jump freighters cost the same as a catalyst and be done with it. Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind your proposal? I've been told that cost isn't a balancing factor; it follows that everything should cost the same to streamline the game. This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost. Could you elaborate on why the game should be streamlined in such a way? Tiericide mate. What purpose does cost serve?
I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1626
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:58:00 -
[273] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :) So when CCP balance ships, they not only balance them based on the cost of the hulls, but also on the value of the cargo the hull may or may not be carrying. Got it.
Oh god. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
140
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:59:00 -
[274] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments.
You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:59:00 -
[275] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :) Profitability of a gank != balance. I just clearly demonstrated, with your help (thank you) that in regards to ganking cost is a balancing factor. You said so yourself. Are you calling you a liar? |
Dave Stark
3427
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:00:00 -
[276] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :)
good, now you can stop pretending cost has any influence on ship balance. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12832
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:00:00 -
[277] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :) Profitability of a gank != balance. I just clearly demonstrated, with your help (thank you) that in regards to ganking cost is a balancing factor. You said so yourself. Are you calling you a liar? Where?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:01:00 -
[278] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments. You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game?
I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I asked you 10 pages ago. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3427
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:01:00 -
[279] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments. You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game?
it's pretty much the basis of the economy, and due to the economy being player driven the situation where everything costs the same simply won't exist. |
Dave Stark
3427
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:04:00 -
[280] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:No reasoning with people who think they deserve some of the highest income in the game for high sec ganking in destroyers.
i don't think any one has stated that they think they deserve some of the highest income in the game; and if we did there are plenty of activities which provide more isk/hour, cost less to participate in, and are far more reliable and stable than suicide ganking.
but feel free to keep posting without making a legitimate point about anything related to the topic. |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:10:00 -
[281] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments. You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game? it's pretty much the basis of the economy, and due to the economy being player driven the situation where everything costs the same simply won't exist.
Ohhhh, you just can't understand Industry then? I can try to explain but I'm a bad teacher -
In T1 ship manufacture, cost is determined almost entirely by mineral cost and manufacture time (the margins are minimal due to industry pvp).
If you'll notice, I said -
"This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost."
In any case, I'm sure freighter pilots would be happy if you got the cost to within a reasonable factor of destroyers.
Incidentally, your reply seems off topic: If you prefer, I'd like to know why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance. |
Dave Stark
3427
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:12:00 -
[282] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I like how you reverted to trolling after we refuted all of your hilariously incorrect arguments. You appear to not want to answer the question. What purpose does cost serve in the game? it's pretty much the basis of the economy, and due to the economy being player driven the situation where everything costs the same simply won't exist. Ohhhh, you just can't understand Industry then? I can try to explain but I'm a bad teacher - In T1 ship manufacture, cost is determined almost entirely by mineral cost and manufacture time (the margins are minimal due to industry pvp). If you'll notice, I said - "This would obviously be accomplished in practice by adjusting raw component and manufacturing cost." In any case, I'm sure freighter pilots would be happy if you got the cost to within a reasonable factor of destroyers.
did you have a point? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:12:00 -
[283] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: I just clearly demonstrated, with your help (thank you) that in regards to ganking cost is a balancing factor. You said so yourself. Are you calling you a liar?
Where? You've been prattling on about how cost is a factor in ship balance, the profitability of a gank has absolutely f' all to do with ship balance. So you think we've been talking about the combat capabilities of a freighter vs catalysts all this time. Ill let you in on a little secret, freighters are basically giant shuttles, they have no combat capabilities so why would we have been talking about them in regards to that kind of balance in a freighter gank thread? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:15:00 -
[284] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:did you have a point?
"I'd like to know why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance." |
Dave Stark
3428
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:16:00 -
[285] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:did you have a point? "I'd like to know why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance."
you're terrible at trolling, just so you're aware.
also, wrong thread. |
Dave Stark
3428
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:17:00 -
[286] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: I just clearly demonstrated, with your help (thank you) that in regards to ganking cost is a balancing factor. You said so yourself. Are you calling you a liar?
Where? You've been prattling on about how cost is a factor in ship balance, the profitability of a gank has absolutely f' all to do with ship balance. So you think we've been talking about the combat capabilities of a freighter vs catalysts all this time. Ill let you in on a little secret, freighters are basically giant shuttles, they have no combat capabilities so why would we have been talking about them in regards to that kind of balance in a freighter gank thread?
I'll let you in on a little secret; you've been systematically incorrect throughout the whole thread. your dignity would be grateful if you just gave up now. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:17:00 -
[287] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Are you still willing to say cost does not balance ganking? yes. because as long as there's more loot in the freighter than it costs me to gank it; i'll gank it regardless of cost. cost doesn't matter as long as it's less than how much you've got in your ship which has no bearing on game balance or ship cost. it's entirely dependent upon how dumb freighter pilots are. Lmao. So cost is not a balancing factor but if theres not enough loot to justify the cost you won't gank it. Got it :)
The cost of building the hull is not a balancing factor but the contents or modules fitted to that hull that may drop when the hull is destroyed have a direct impact because they represent potential profit as long as the value that drops exceeds the value of the ships that were used to destroy the ship, if not then it is a net loss for the gankers.
Due to the drop mechanics you can never be sure that it will be worth while but the greater the value of dropped goods the greater the likely hood of a gank being profitable.
So as you can see the value of the ship that is being ganked is never compared to the value of the ships ganking but the value of the possible drops is compared to the cost of the gank fleet and their modules, moral of the story keep the cargo cheap less chance of getting ganked, or stop trying to play solo in an MMO
This is not rocket science people! CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1245
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:23:00 -
[288] - Quote
So far ITT:
- People who have no friends should be equal to people who do.
- Cost is a balancing factor.
- People only ever gank freighters for profit.
- Webbing corp mates earns you a suspect flag.
- Droves of people that don't understand how prices work on the market.
I'm sure there's more examples, but so far we have a lot of evidence that someone should rebalance the stupidity module, since it seems to have an incredibly long cycle time. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:23:00 -
[289] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:you're terrible at trolling, just so you're aware.
also, wrong thread.
Not sure how this is the wrong thread.
It's also not trolling; I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. I can't help it if your own logic repeated back to you sounds ridiculous. So please, humor me and answer -
"why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance." |
Dave Stark
3429
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:25:00 -
[290] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you're terrible at trolling, just so you're aware.
also, wrong thread. Not sure how this is the wrong thread. It's also not trolling; I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. I can't help it if your own logic repeated back to you sounds ridiculous. So please, humor me and answer - "why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance."
again, wrong thread.
just so you know why it's the wrong thread, since you seem unable to understand why; we're not talking about industry or ship production. we're talking about suicide ganking. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16266
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:26:00 -
[291] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance. Because it creates a difference in supply, and they want different roles and abilities to have different rarity.
Cost is a product of balance, not a factor in it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:26:00 -
[292] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Quote:Not sure how this is the wrong thread.
It's also not trolling; I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. I can't help it if your own logic repeated back to you sounds ridiculous. So please, humor me and answer -
"why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance." again, wrong thread.
Please direct me to the right thread and answer the question chum. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:27:00 -
[293] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:you're terrible at trolling, just so you're aware.
also, wrong thread. Not sure how this is the wrong thread. It's also not trolling; I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. I can't help it if your own logic repeated back to you sounds ridiculous. So please, humor me and answer - "why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance."
Because it's bigger & thus requires more materials & a longer build time. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3429
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:28:00 -
[294] - Quote
no. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1247
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:28:00 -
[295] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: "why different ships require different amounts of material/time/investment to produce since that's not supposed to factor into balance."
Because CCP likes to troll people who don't understand balance in the game's crafting system, versus balance in the game's combat system. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:30:00 -
[296] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Cost is a product of balance, not a factor in it.
If one ships requires vastly more material of the same type than another, one might rightly conclude that the price is not entirely driven by balance? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:31:00 -
[297] - Quote
That's not very sociable of you. |
Dave Stark
3429
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:32:00 -
[298] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:That's not very sociable of you.
I'm not a very sociable person, or maybe it's just you. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3556
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:33:00 -
[299] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Cost is a product of balance, not a factor in it. If one ships requires vastly more material of the same type than another, one might rightly conclude that the price is not entirely driven by balance?
Price is driven by supply & demand. It's the result of the player controlled economy. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:34:00 -
[300] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:That's not very sociable of you. I'm not a very sociable person, or maybe it's just you.
Perhaps logic just angers you?
|
|
Dave Stark
3431
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:35:00 -
[301] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:That's not very sociable of you. I'm not a very sociable person, or maybe it's just you. Perhaps logic just angers you?
if it did, you'd never manage to anger me. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:35:00 -
[302] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Cost is a product of balance, not a factor in it. If one ships requires vastly more material of the same type than another, one might rightly conclude that the price is not entirely driven by balance? Price is driven by supply & demand. It's the result of the player controlled economy.
It's not though? By far the most significant factor in trade hub price is the raw material cost determined by CCP. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3557
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:36:00 -
[303] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:That's not very sociable of you. I'm not a very sociable person, or maybe it's just you. Perhaps logic just angers you?
You haven't been very forthcoming with logic. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:36:00 -
[304] - Quote
Funniest thread ever. Watching people refusing to accept the irrefutable :) thanks for all the laughs |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16266
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:36:00 -
[305] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:If one ships requires vastly more material of the same type than another, one might rightly conclude that the price is not entirely driven by balance? Balance is not the only factor in determining the price, no, especially not for individual ships (since the mineral basket may be skewed in one direction or another due to the current meta regarding a completely separate category of ships, thereby making even high-power/high-demand ships very cheap).
It wouldn't be much of a product if there only was one factor, now would it?
Quote:It's not though? By far the most significant factor trade hub price is the raw material cost determined by GǪthe players. The last time the cost of those materials was determined by CCP was back when trit was capped by NPC-made shuttles. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12836
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:37:00 -
[306] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: So you think we've been talking about the combat capabilities of a freighter vs catalysts all this time. Ill let you in on a little secret, freighters are basically giant shuttles, they have no combat capabilities so why would we have been talking about them in regards to that kind of balance in a freighter gank thread?
Nobody said anything about combat abilities, stop trying to change the subject.
All of the following was said by yourself, and refers to ship balancing. It has been snipped because the forum only allows 5 quotes in a post.
Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter ..... Being able to suicide a capital ship with a few cheap dessies repeatedly in High goes against that principle, devalues and imbalances the ship involved and is socially bad for EvE ..... Lol only their millions of EHP ..... How about every time a cap ship is solo it reverts to 300,000 EHP. If it dies (cus it was ratting) its the pilots fault for not having remote reps, scouts, webbers and instantly deployables cyno alts ..... Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better ..... If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:38:00 -
[307] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote: Perhaps logic just angers you?
if it did, you'd never manage to anger me.
Are you sure? People who rant about trolling are usually angry. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3557
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:38:00 -
[308] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Funniest thread ever. Watching people refusing to accept the irrefutable :) thanks for all the laughs
I have to agree with you. I really enjoyed refuting your arguments. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
2355
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:39:00 -
[309] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 OMG people are at risk when they undock!?!?! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Dave Stark
3431
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:39:00 -
[310] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote: Perhaps logic just angers you?
if it did, you'd never manage to anger me. Are you sure? People who rant about trolling are usually angry.
i didn't rant about it; i just pointed out that you were terrible at it. |
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1248
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:41:00 -
[311] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
It's not though? By far the most significant factor in trade hub price is the raw material cost determined by CCP.
Build cost is not determined by CCP. The bill of materials is, but the cost of those materials is determined by the player market. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:42:00 -
[312] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: So you think we've been talking about the combat capabilities of a freighter vs catalysts all this time. Ill let you in on a little secret, freighters are basically giant shuttles, they have no combat capabilities so why would we have been talking about them in regards to that kind of balance in a freighter gank thread?
Nobody said anything about combat abilities, stop trying to change the subject. All of the following was said by yourself, and refers to ship balancing. It has been snipped because the forum only allows 5 quotes in a post. Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter ..... Being able to suicide a capital ship with a few cheap dessies repeatedly in High goes against that principle, devalues and imbalances the ship involved and is socially bad for EvE ..... Lol only their millions of EHP ..... How about every time a cap ship is solo it reverts to 300,000 EHP. If it dies (cus it was ratting) its the pilots fault for not having remote reps, scouts, webbers and instantly deployables cyno alts ..... Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better ..... If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE. Lol what specifically doesn't relate to the topic at hand? Or are you hoping to obfuscate? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:42:00 -
[313] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i didn't rant about it; i just pointed out that you were terrible at it.
You made the claim in several consecutive posts, leading me to believe you were fixated.
I apologize if there was a misunderstanding. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:43:00 -
[314] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote:
It's not though? By far the most significant factor in trade hub price is the raw material cost determined by CCP.
Build cost is not determined by CCP. The bill of materials is, but the cost of those materials is determined by the player market. So the amounts on the bill of materials was determined by whom if not CCP? |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:44:00 -
[315] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote:
It's not though? By far the most significant factor in trade hub price is the raw material cost determined by CCP.
Build cost is not determined by CCP. The bill of materials is, but the cost of those materials is determined by the player market. So the amounts on the bill of materials was determined by whom if not CCP?
Are you illiterate? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12836
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:44:00 -
[316] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote: Perhaps logic just angers you?
if it did, you'd never manage to anger me. Are you sure? People who rant about trolling are usually angry. i didn't rant about it; i just pointed out that you were terrible at it. Give up Dave, he has 90% resists to logic, common sense, fallibility and decent posting.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3431
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:45:00 -
[317] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i didn't rant about it; i just pointed out that you were terrible at it. You made the claim in several consecutive posts, leading me to believe you were fixated. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding.
that's ok, it's evident there's a lot that you misunderstand. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:45:00 -
[318] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪthe players. The last time the cost of those materials was determined by CCP was back when trit was capped by NPC-made shuttles.
This might be a valid differentiating factor if T1 ships weren't all built out of, more or less, the same material; and if availability and yield weren't also determined by CCP.
If you like: are material requirements a factor in balance?
One might call materials consumed in the process a cost or even a price of manufacture. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1249
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:46:00 -
[319] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote:
It's not though? By far the most significant factor in trade hub price is the raw material cost determined by CCP.
Build cost is not determined by CCP. The bill of materials is, but the cost of those materials is determined by the player market. So the amounts on the bill of materials was determined by whom if not CCP? Are you illiterate?
Correct. Hence, most of this thread. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12837
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:48:00 -
[320] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Lol what specifically doesn't relate to the topic at hand? Or are you hoping to obfuscate?
You tell me, you're the expert at it.
I'm not saying that ship balance is unrelated to the topic at hand, you're denying that you were talking about it, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:48:00 -
[321] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote:
It's not though? By far the most significant factor in trade hub price is the raw material cost determined by CCP.
Build cost is not determined by CCP. The bill of materials is, but the cost of those materials is determined by the player market. So the amounts on the bill of materials was determined by whom if not CCP? Are you illiterate? Sometimes. Depends if its a weekend or not. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1249
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:49:00 -
[322] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪthe players. The last time the cost of those materials was determined by CCP was back when trit was capped by NPC-made shuttles. This might be a valid differentiating factor if T1 ships weren't all built out of, more or less, the same material; and if availability and yield weren't also determined by CCP. If you like: is material cost a factor in balance? One might call materials consumed in the process a cost or even a price of manufacture.
One does call them that.
The prices of those materials, and hence the cost to build things, are determined by the player market, and not by CCP. CCP's in-game blueprint may tell you that Item X requires 100 Tritanium to manufacture. What it does not tell you is that YOU MUST PAY XXXX isk for that Tritanium. Stop confusing material requirements with material costs. The words do not mean the same thing. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16266
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:50:00 -
[323] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:This might be a valid differentiating factor if T1 ships weren't all built out of, more or less, the same material; and if availability and yield weren't also determined by CCP. The materials required for different ships depend to a great extent on which race they belong to, and what ores and minerals are associated with their home regions.
Quote:If you like: is material cost a factor in balance? No. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:50:00 -
[324] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Lol what specifically doesn't relate to the topic at hand? Or are you hoping to obfuscate?
You tell me, you're the expert at it. Obfuscating then. Need to do better than find a bunch of posts validating my position. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12837
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:54:00 -
[325] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Lol what specifically doesn't relate to the topic at hand? Or are you hoping to obfuscate?
You tell me, you're the expert at it. Obfuscating then. Need to do better than find a bunch of posts validating my position. Actually I found a bunch of posts where you were talking about ship balancing, something you later denied.
Have you considered a career in politics? Lying through your teeth is a valid skillset there.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:57:00 -
[326] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:If you like: is material cost a factor in balance? No.
Perhaps material requirements then?
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:57:00 -
[327] - Quote
Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:This might be a valid differentiating factor if T1 ships weren't all built out of, more or less, the same material; and if availability and yield weren't also determined by CCP. The materials required for different ships depend to a great extent on which race they belong to, and what ores and minerals are associated with their home regions. Quote:If you like: is material cost a factor in balance? No. In the context of this thread, regards to freighter ganking, yes it is. It directly relates to ganking ability, frequency and profitability. If catalysts cost 100 million each because material costs to build them was increased there would not be catalysts ganking.
Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1626
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:59:00 -
[328] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Oh god. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1249
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:00:00 -
[329] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: In the context of this thread, regards to freighter ganking, yes it is. It directly relates to ganking ability, frequency and profitability. If catalysts cost 100 million each because material costs to build them was increased there would not be catalysts ganking.
Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease.
Ridiculous hypotheticals are an excellent tactic for argument.
Did you know that if freighters cost 100 billion each because material costs to build them were increased, hardly anyone would bother owning them, and we wouldn't have so many inept freighter pilots creating these whine threads? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16266
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:01:00 -
[330] - Quote
On a different note, wtf people?!
All week, Falcons have been selling like crazy and Zealots have been slow as molasses, and suddenly it's the other way around? Buy more Falcons dammit!
It may have nothing to do with the topic, but since this seems to be the current angry thread, I thought I'd vent some of mine as well.
S Byerley wrote:Perhaps material requirements then? No. And before you try again, let's make this clear once again: no matter what label you try to use, the answer will still be no, because you're still assuming the wrong direction of the relationship. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:01:00 -
[331] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:This might be a valid differentiating factor if T1 ships weren't all built out of, more or less, the same material; and if availability and yield weren't also determined by CCP. The materials required for different ships depend to a great extent on which race they belong to, and what ores and minerals are associated with their home regions. Quote:If you like: is material cost a factor in balance? No. In the context of this thread, regards to freighter ganking, yes it is. It directly relates to ganking ability, frequency and profitability. If catalysts cost 100 million each because material costs to build them was increased there would not be catalysts ganking. Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease.
Freighter ganking isn't as frequent as you seem to think it is, so your cost balancing argument is entirely irrelevant. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
367
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:03:00 -
[332] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12838
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:04:00 -
[333] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:This might be a valid differentiating factor if T1 ships weren't all built out of, more or less, the same material; and if availability and yield weren't also determined by CCP. The materials required for different ships depend to a great extent on which race they belong to, and what ores and minerals are associated with their home regions. Quote:If you like: is material cost a factor in balance? No. In the context of this thread, regards to freighter ganking, yes it is. It directly relates to ganking ability, frequency and profitability. If catalysts cost 100 million each because material costs to build them was increased there would not be catalysts ganking. Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Freighter ganking isn't as frequent as you seem to think it is, so your cost balancing argument is entirely irrelevant. Exhumer ganking isn't either, people still bleat like sheep about it despite CCP stating that it's at all time low.
One freighter a month would be too much for some people.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Phil Defer
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:04:00 -
[334] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lugalbandak wrote:Wy would de base cargohold heavily nerfed? because fitting a single cargo expander would allow freighters to move packaged capitals in to high sec, which is an issue easily avoided by not letting freighters fit cargo modules. Who cares if you move them into highsec. As long as you can't assemble them which is easily fixed. you mean aside from the fact that your ill thought idea has knock on consequences that will require time and effort to fix when instead CCP can carry on ignoring the dumb people who fill their freighter with all their worldly goods and hit undock. yeah i know, let's make a load of issues just to protect dumb people. hint; ccp have never protected dumb people, that's why scamming is a perfectly legitimate profession in eve.
"ccp have never protected dumb people"
Yeah , that's why ccp make pop a window when someone try to buy a item + 100% of the average price , i believe
|
Ammzi
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1415
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:04:00 -
[335] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Even this freighter http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276was killed by them because it dosnt cost them anything really worthfull (sec status is for an 00 alliance not a problem and of course you can buy it easy after the last patch if you need it)
To be fair, the providence was a test run to get people some experience :D
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Dave Stark
3432
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:06:00 -
[336] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo. thank you for finally admitting freighter EHP is fine. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1626
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:07:00 -
[337] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo. How much of a buff does it need? Oh god. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12841
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:07:00 -
[338] - Quote
Phil Defer wrote:Dave Stark wrote: hint; ccp have never protected dumb people, that's why scamming is a perfectly legitimate profession in eve.
"ccp have never protected dumb people" Yeah , that's why ccp make pop a window when someone try to buy a item + 100% of the average price , i believe Yet despite the pop up window, being dumb wins.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:08:00 -
[339] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo.
You realise that we ganked freighters using Talos' for an entire year right? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:09:00 -
[340] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo.
Ganking an empty freighter is not profitable. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Dave Stark
3432
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:09:00 -
[341] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo. You realise that we ganked freighters using Talos' for an entire year right? yeah but we all know that catalysts are only the ship of choice because miniluv is broke and poor. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12841
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:10:00 -
[342] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo. Ganking an empty freighter is not profitable. It is fun though, explosions are pretty.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1250
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:11:00 -
[343] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo.
Confirming once again that the only reason people gank freighters is for profit. Repeat, nothing in EVE is ever done just for laughs. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16267
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:11:00 -
[344] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo. GǪso in other words, no buff in HP GÇö and no nerf in the form of fitting ability GÇö is really needed.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:18:00 -
[345] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. And before you try again,
You'll have to forgive me for making sure we're on the same page; you have a fondness for autistic semantics and several others on your end of the discussion seem to disagree.
Quote:let's make this clear once again: no matter what label you try to use, the answer will still be no, because you're still assuming the wrong direction of the relationship.
The other direction would be a balancing factor is a material requirement. That doesn't make sense to me. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:20:00 -
[346] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Confirming once again that the only reason people gank freighters is for profit. Repeat, nothing in EVE is ever done just for laughs.
If you're doing it for ***** and giggles you shouldn't have an issue with CCP making it less profitable? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16268
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:22:00 -
[347] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:You'll have to forgive me for making sure we're on the same page Have you tried reading what I write rather than just skipping over it and inventing your own claims that you then try to attribute to me?
Quote:The other direction would be a balancing factor is a material requirement. The other direction would be that cost is a product of balance; that balance is a factor in cost. You know, the things you've been trying to reverse every time I've mentioned it?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dave Stark
3433
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:23:00 -
[348] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Confirming once again that the only reason people gank freighters is for profit. Repeat, nothing in EVE is ever done just for laughs. If you're doing it for ***** and giggles you shouldn't have an issue with CCP making it less profitable?
Players can make it less profitable. CCP doesn't need to get involved. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1626
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:24:00 -
[349] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:The other direction would be a balancing factor is a material requirement. That doesn't make sense to me. No, the material requirement is a result of balance, not the other way. Also you might want to edit out your offensive remark.
Oh god. |
Womyn Power
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:24:00 -
[350] - Quote
i hope this **** becomes a weekly thing for love squad
highsec is such a huge untapped tear reservoir of tears |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:27:00 -
[351] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:The other direction would be a balancing factor is a material requirement. The other direction would be that balance is a factor in cost; that cost is a product of balance. You know, the things you've been trying to reverse every time I've mentioned it?
Material requirements are set by CCP; how can they be a product of balance? Unless you're trying to say that CCP balances ships and then sets material requirements based on that balance - in which case the distinction is purely philosophical and obviously not appropriate to make here. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:33:00 -
[352] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Also you might want to edit out your offensive remark.
I can only assume you take issue with me calling a type of semantics autistic? I can't see why; it's merely the easiest way to refer to an asocial fixation on strict definitions that don't match formal or common usage - obviously related to the common traits of the neural disorder. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12842
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:37:00 -
[353] - Quote
Womyn Power wrote:i hope this **** becomes a weekly thing for love squad
highsec is such a huge untapped tear reservoir of tears Freighter pilots have nothing on miners, the amount of tears, threats and vitriol they produce will keep you going for years.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1250
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:41:00 -
[354] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Womyn Power wrote:i hope this **** becomes a weekly thing for love squad
highsec is such a huge untapped tear reservoir of tears Freighter pilots have nothing on miners, the amount of tears, threats and vitriol they produce will keep you going for years.
Must be due to the staggering amount of freighters that get ganked. Freighter pilots simply don't have any tears left. I know if I were part of a profession where my chosen ship type got ganked every 20 minutes on average, I would be completely beaten down beyond the point of complaint, too. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12843
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:46:00 -
[355] - Quote
You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:49:00 -
[356] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts.
Oh look
|
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:50:00 -
[357] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink.
I fly freighters and use them as part of a sov holding null sec alliances logistic's backbone I do have a PVP toon but I have no interest in hi sec ganks, I use my freighter mainly in hi sec and JF for most of the null work that said I have used the freighter in null and vise versa with the JF, so that is my back ground in this argument.
In the 3 ish years I have used a freighter I have never been the victim of a gank because of taking efforts to reduce the risk which with out going into the details again, see my earlier posts, include managing cargo volume, having a support fleet fly with you and never ever ever flying afk.
I have been scanned but never more because of flying smart. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16268
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:52:00 -
[358] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Material requirements are set by CCP; how can they be a product of balance? First CCP determines the balance of a ship. Then they look at it and say GǣhmmGǪ how common do we want this thing to beGǥ. Then they set a price to achieve that goal. To what degree it reflects actual performance depends on the purpose of the ship.
Quote:Unless you're trying to say that CCP balances ships and then sets material requirements based on that balance - in which case the distinction is purely philosophical and obviously not appropriate to make here. No, it's actually a crucial difference and a core part of game design. The direction you're proposing means that an imbalance can be rectified by giving the ship the right cost. This doesn't work, as has been proven byGǪ ohGǪ every attempt at doing so ever. The direction I'm describing means that depending on where the ship sits in the overall scale of things (where balance is but one of many considerations), you assign it a cost that provides an indication of that position. It does not alter the position in any way.
You're trying to say that it's prescriptive; I'm saying that it's (only partially) descriptive. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1251
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:55:00 -
[359] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts.
But Jonah, it's not sarcasm. It's simply common knowledge that freighters get ganked every 20 minutes in highsec. That's why everything costs so much, because most goods never actually get where they are going. Goonswarm takes all the sacrificial freighter loot and boils it up in a big pot of miner tears, and uses the resultant potion as a mind-altering pablum that they feed to their renter corps in order to make them more passive and agreeable to 3am CTAs in the name of the cause.
It's the circle of life. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12846
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:55:00 -
[360] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts. Oh look Your list of things to learn from this thread now consists of
- the meaning of the word "average"
- what a strawman argument is
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7746
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:01:00 -
[361] - Quote
Oh hey look another "protect me from myself" thread.
|
Dave Stark
3437
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:02:00 -
[362] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Oh hey look another "protect me from myself" thread.
welcome, but you're a bit late to the party! |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:07:00 -
[363] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Oh hey look another "protect me from myself" thread.
Shouldn't you be out ganking a freighter every 20 minutes? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2654
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:07:00 -
[364] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship?
Or they could tell us why it's unfair for 15 COMBAT ships to kill one industrial ship. I'm sure it would take the United States Navy 15 destroyers to sink a freighter :) . |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:14:00 -
[365] - Quote
Tippia wrote:First CCP determines the balance of a ship. Then they look at it and say GǣhmmGǪ how common do we want this thing to beGǥ. Then they set a price to achieve that goal. To what degree it reflects actual performance depends on the purpose of the ship.
You know this how exactly?
Material requirements being a factor in balancing doesn't mean that changing them is a good option, largely due to the artificial impact on the economy.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7748
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:14:00 -
[366] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Oh hey look another "protect me from myself" thread.
welcome, but you're a bit late to the party!
Forgot to charge my phone. I am amazed you lot managed to get this thing so big in jut 12 or so hours. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12849
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:16:00 -
[367] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Oh hey look another "protect me from myself" thread.
welcome, but you're a bit late to the party! Forgot to charge my phone. I am amazed you lot managed to get this thing so big in jut 12 or so hours. We had prolific shiptoasters to play with.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3563
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:18:00 -
[368] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Oh hey look another "protect me from myself" thread.
welcome, but you're a bit late to the party! Forgot to charge my phone. I am amazed you lot managed to get this thing so big in jut 12 or so hours. We had prolific shiptoasters to play with.
Shitposting isn't censored you know. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3439
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:18:00 -
[369] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Oh hey look another "protect me from myself" thread.
welcome, but you're a bit late to the party! Forgot to charge my phone. I am amazed you lot managed to get this thing so big in jut 12 or so hours.
I had that problem regularly when the guys at work got me in to ingress. I spent -ú30 on a portable battery. never had a flat phone battery since. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12849
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:20:00 -
[370] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: Shitposting isn't censored you know.
Dammit, I wish I'd known that earlier.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:20:00 -
[371] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts. Oh look Your list of things to learn from this thread now consists of
- the meaning of the word "average"
- what a strawman argument is
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
|
Dave Stark
3439
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:21:00 -
[372] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts. Oh look Your list of things to learn from this thread now consists of
- the meaning of the word "average"
- what a strawman argument is
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes. If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
if it's common to gank a freighter every 20 mins, that means it's common for a freighter to die every 20 mins.
i don't think you understand how words work. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16269
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:22:00 -
[373] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:You know this how exactly? Because they're game developers who have now learned (the hard way) that cost is not a balancing factor.
Quote:Material requirements being a factor in balancing doesn't GǪhappen, because it has been shown not to have any effect on the balance of the ship (unsurprisingly GÇö after all, the ship stats and the build requirements are completely independent of each other).
Will they occasionally change the building requirements to match the balance of the ship? Sure. But then that's what's happening: matching cost to balance, not adjusting balance through cost. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1253
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:22:00 -
[374] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Freighters are expensive, Tippia, so they should be megatanked God Ships.
You should just speak plainly, bro. We all get your insinuation when you insist that cost is a factor in balance, so you should just out with it.
What's your preferred HP/isk ratio? We can start a thread in F&I asking CCP to rebalance the defensive ability of all ships based upon it. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7748
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:25:00 -
[375] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month?
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12856
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:26:00 -
[376] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
strawman - a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted
Your 20 minute statement was an inadvertent strawman, you presented it as an argument believing it to be true, not realising that it could be easily refuted.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:27:00 -
[377] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if it's common to gank a freighter every 20 mins, that means it's common for a freighter to die every 20 mins.
i don't think you understand how words work.
You're assuming that the practice is common (among other things). It's obviously not and as such you have made an ass of yourself, but fortunately not of me. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:29:00 -
[378] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month?
As an interested party, perhaps you can grace me with your average isk/hr while ganking freighters.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7748
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:32:00 -
[379] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month? As an interested party, perhaps you can grace me with your average isk/hr while ganking freighters.
Depends how kind the loot fairy is that day. |
Dave Stark
3440
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:33:00 -
[380] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if it's common to gank a freighter every 20 mins, that means it's common for a freighter to die every 20 mins.
i don't think you understand how words work. You're assuming that the practice is common (among other things). It's obviously not and as such you have made an ass of yourself, but fortunately not of me.
if a freighter gets ganked every 20 mins on average that implies it is common. you're the one saying it's a 20 min average.
it's nice to know you're admitting it's not the case and you've made an ass of yourself though. |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:33:00 -
[381] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Depends how kind the loot fairy is that day.
Just the average, please. Feel free to ballpark or include a range if that makes it easier. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3566
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:34:00 -
[382] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts. Oh look Your list of things to learn from this thread now consists of
- the meaning of the word "average"
- what a strawman argument is
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes. If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
If a freighter died every 20 minutes on average, then we'd be killing more than 30-45 per month by a huge amount. Earlier when I went through the killboard you referenced there was only 12 instances of freighters dying 18-25 minutes apart. All of the other kills made on the same day were hours apart. This does not make 20 minutes the average, not by a longshot. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:36:00 -
[383] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if a freighter gets ganked every 20 mins on average that implies it is common. you're the one saying it's a 20 min average.
Are you having trouble grasping the concept of a local average? Again, not a great teacher. If it helps, this is how everyone does every isk/hr calculation ever. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7749
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:37:00 -
[384] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Depends how kind the loot fairy is that day. Just the average, please. Feel free to ballpark or include a range if that makes it easier.
Less than running level 4 missions. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3566
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:38:00 -
[385] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if a freighter gets ganked every 20 mins on average that implies it is common. you're the one saying it's a 20 min average. Are you having trouble grasping the concept of a local average? Again, not a great teacher. If it helps, this is how everyone does every isk/hr calculation ever.
He understands it perfectly well. It is you that does not. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12858
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:39:00 -
[386] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if it's common to gank a freighter every 20 mins, that means it's common for a freighter to die every 20 mins.
i don't think you understand how words work. You're assuming that the practice is common (among other things). It's obviously not and as such you have made an ass of yourself, but fortunately not of me.
S Byerley wrote:Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Right here you stated categorically that freighters get ganked every 20 minutes or so.
BTW the statement above is an example of a strawman, an accidental strawman, but a strawman nonetheless.
Who's the arse?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:42:00 -
[387] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Right here you stated categorically that freighters get ganked every 20 minutes or so.
Sorry, you must have missed the bit where I clarified to mitigate your deliberate misinterpretation of context -
S Byerley wrote:Bat Country averages 15-20minutes/freighter when they're actively doing it
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Who's the arse?
Lots of asses; shall I list them? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:44:00 -
[388] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Less than running level 4 missions.
You'll have to clarify; people claim anywhere from 20m to 200m/hr for level 4 missions. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12858
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:47:00 -
[389] - Quote
Would you like a link to the original post? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3553957#post3553957
The only edit was to remove the person you quoted, that is exactly what you posted.
Your later backpedalling is irrelevant, and didn't start until 2 pages later.
Please feel free to list arses, I'm a bit of a legs and arse man.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3567
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:48:00 -
[390] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Less than running level 4 missions. You'll have to clarify; people claim anywhere from 20m to 200m/hr for level 4 missions.
Here's a ballpark figure for you. Asuming that 20 people are out ganking freighters for 8 hours a day for the last 365 days & around 2 trillion in loot has dropped, each would earn 34,246,575 isk per hour. However, since a significant portion of that isk goes towards ships & incentives to keep the SIG going it's more like 10m an hour per person. Then add in that for a year we were using Talos to gank & the figure drops to around 2m per hour. Ganking freighters isn't as profitable as people seem to think, but oh boy is it hilarious.
Less than the isk/hr of running level 4 missions (which earn 40m per hour per account at best). The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:51:00 -
[391] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The only edit was to remove the person you quoted, that is exactly what you posted.
Context only goes post deep, eh? I've had a consistent position across at least three of these threads. If the ambiguity of that particular post continues to bother you for lack of deeper understanding, I guess I can footnote it for clarity. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7750
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:51:00 -
[392] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Less than running level 4 missions. You'll have to clarify; people claim anywhere from 20m to 200m/hr for level 4 missions.
Let me put it this way.
We got 3 billion in taxes in one day from one guy and his alts. Our tax is at 5%...
Anyone going with just one account will be splitting the isk with at least 15 other people so while freighter ganking is good money it doesn't pay as well as doing level 4 missions over the same time scale. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:54:00 -
[393] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Here's a ballpark figure for you. Asuming that 20 people are out ganking freighters for 8 hours a day for the last 365 days
This is an invalid assumption; please rework your calculation.
Quote:level 4 missions (which earn 40m per hour per account at best).
Lol? Just no.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1254
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:54:00 -
[394] - Quote
Ladies and gentleman, we are now at that sad point in a doomed thread where a bitter clinger attempts to deflect attention from some asinine thing he said earlier, by calling for others to offer proof of something utterly and completely unrelated to the actual matter at hand.
If this were a short play, we would be well into the third act. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1256
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:55:00 -
[395] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Here's a ballpark figure for you. Asuming that 20 people are out ganking freighters for 8 hours a day for the last 365 days This is an invalid assumption; please rework your calculation. Quote:level 4 missions (which earn 40m per hour per account at best). Lol? Just no.
I actually agree. If you're only averaging 40mil per hour in level 4s, you suck at them and should stop doing them in favor of something else.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12858
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 17:57:00 -
[396] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The only edit was to remove the person you quoted, that is exactly what you posted. Context only goes post deep, eh? I've had a consistent position across at least three of these threads. If the ambiguity of that particular post continues to bother you for lack of deeper understanding, I guess I can footnote it for clarity. You should have thought of that before sperging your crap on the forums. Context is important, so important that you should have actually clarified exactly what you meant at the time.
Your "context" started 2 pages later, when you'd already been called out on your ridiculous statement by numerous people who had checked the facts, something you neglected to do, and actually know what they're talking about.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12858
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:00:00 -
[397] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Here's a ballpark figure for you. Asuming that 20 people are out ganking freighters for 8 hours a day for the last 365 days This is an invalid assumption; please rework your calculation. Quote:level 4 missions (which earn 40m per hour per account at best). Lol? Just no. I actually agree. If you're only averaging 40mil per hour in level 4s, you suck at them and should stop doing them in favor of something else. 40m is trivial, I run 4's in a BC, I do my own looting and salvaging, use T1 ammo and am generally a lazy bastard about it. I still clear 40m+. It's possibly the only thing he's posted in this thread that is even partially believable.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7750
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:02:00 -
[398] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Here's a ballpark figure for you. Asuming that 20 people are out ganking freighters for 8 hours a day for the last 365 days This is an invalid assumption; please rework your calculation. Quote:level 4 missions (which earn 40m per hour per account at best). Lol? Just no. I actually agree. If you're only averaging 40mil per hour in level 4s, you suck at them and should stop doing them in favor of something else. 40m is trivial, I run 4's in a BC, I do my own looting and salvaging, use T1 ammo and am generally a lazy bastard about it. I still clear 40m+
Come winter if plans don't change its going to be earning ever more if you get a kronos. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1256
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:03:00 -
[399] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Come winter if plans don't change we are going to be earning ever more if you get a kronos.
You'll need a freighter to carry all your isk around. Just be sure and only fly it for 19 minutes at a time. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:04:00 -
[400] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Less than running level 4 missions. You'll have to clarify; people claim anywhere from 20m to 200m/hr for level 4 missions. Let me put it this way. We got 3 billion in taxes in one day from one guy and his alts. Our tax is at 5%... Anyone going with just one account will be splitting the isk with at least 15 other people so while freighter ganking is good money it doesn't pay as well as doing level 4 missions over the same time scale.
Uh... making the generous assumption that "one day" = 24hr:
3b*20/15/24 = 167m/hr
Domanique Altares wrote:Ladies and gentleman, we are now at that sad point in a doomed thread where a bitter clinger attempts to deflect attention from some asinine thing he said earlier, by calling for others to offer proof of something utterly and completely unrelated to the actual matter at hand.
If this were a short play, we would be well into the third act.
You've somehow mistaken malleability for desperation. I have no invested interest and as such will work with whatever bizarre direction people feel like taking the thread in. However, I honestly fail to see how asking someone politely how much he makes ganking freighters is either calling for proof or unrelated to Freighter balance. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12858
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:04:00 -
[401] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Come winter if plans don't change we are going to be earning ever more if you get a kronos.
No thanks, hate battleships. Only one I would even consider using is a Macharial.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7751
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:05:00 -
[402] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:baltec1 wrote: Come winter if plans don't change we are going to be earning ever more if you get a kronos.
You'll need a freighter to carry all your isk around. Just be sure and only fly it for 19 minutes at a time.
I'll stick it in my gank ship because there is no risk. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3568
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:06:00 -
[403] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:I actually agree. If you're only averaging 40mil per hour in level 4s, you suck at them and should stop doing them in favor of something else.
Admittedly it's been 3 years or so since I've run a highsec mission. On the flipside my last freighter gank was a few days ago & is something that I actually know quite a lot about. The ballpark figure I gave him was based on actual averages that can be cross-referenced, but he decided to brush it off because it doesn't match his false belief on the subject which he knows almost nothing about.
I could look up exactly how much loot that Miniluv has gotten from freighter ganks & do a proper calculation, but that would take more effort than herding 35 clueless CFC people around highsec all day to gank Orca's & S Byerley just isn't worth it considering we've spent the last 20-odd pages refuting literally everything he has said. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7751
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:07:00 -
[404] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:I actually agree. If you're only averaging 40mil per hour in level 4s, you suck at them and should stop doing them in favor of something else.
Admittedly it's been 3 years or so since I've run a highsec mission. On the flipside my last freighter gank was a few days ago & is something that I actually know quite a lot about. The ballpark figure I gave him was based on actual averages that can be cross-referenced, but he decided to brush it off because it doesn't match his false belief on the subject which he knows almost nothing about. I could look up exactly how much loot that Miniluv has gotten from freighter ganks & do a proper calculation, but that would take more effort than herding 35 clueless CFC people around highsec all day to gank Orca's & S Byerley just isn't worth it considering we've spent the last 20-odd pages refuting literally everything he has said.
Its the price we pay to help stop CCP from making another mistake. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
458
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:07:00 -
[405] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:but oh boy is it hilarious.
If you're about 12, yea.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1257
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:08:00 -
[406] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: You've somehow mistaken malleability for desperation. I have no invested interest and as such will work with whatever bizarre direction people feel like taking the thread in. However, I honestly fail to see how asking someone politely how much he makes ganking freighters is either calling for proof or unrelated to Freighter balance.
There's absolutely no mistaking your desperation. It's been in every post you've made in this thread. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3568
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:10:00 -
[407] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:but oh boy is it hilarious. If you're about 12, yea.
One of my brothers also suicide ganks. It's a great family bonding activity. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:12:00 -
[408] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Context is important, so important that you should have actually clarified exactly what you meant at the time.
Certainly, but it's also far too easy to manipulate in this setting. You'll have to forgive me for not appropriately avoiding your context gank - poorly executed as it was.
Quote:Your "context" started 2 pages later, when you'd already been called out on your ridiculous statement by numerous people who had checked the facts, something you neglected to do, and actually know what they're talking about.
Actually, the first person to suggest your interpretation was Tippia, to whom I responded within six minutes. The only other mentions simply asked for a specific corporation, which I was too busy avoiding gate camps to look up at the time.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1257
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:12:00 -
[409] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:I actually agree. If you're only averaging 40mil per hour in level 4s, you suck at them and should stop doing them in favor of something else.
Admittedly it's been 3 years or so since I've run a highsec mission. On the flipside my last freighter gank was a few days ago & is something that I actually know quite a lot about. The ballpark figure I gave him was based on actual averages that can be cross-referenced, but he decided to brush it off because it doesn't match his false belief on the subject which he knows almost nothing about. I could look up exactly how much loot that Miniluv has gotten from freighter ganks & do a proper calculation, but that would take more effort than herding 35 clueless CFC people around highsec all day to gank Orca's & S Byerley just isn't worth it considering we've spent the last 20-odd pages refuting literally everything he has said.
I've never bothered to efficiently (or frequently) run level 4's, so I don't get anywhere near max, ever. I just happen to have seen other peoples' trustworthy calculations on what's possible if you want to go all in for it.
As to your gank figures, you're actually a touch lower in reality than I got by napkin-math, but then I was working on the high-end by assuming every target was a rich target, and that the loot fairy was being generous. Obviously, neither is usually the case. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:13:00 -
[410] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Ladies and gentleman, we are now at that sad point in a doomed thread where a bitter clinger attempts to deflect attention from some asinine thing he said earlier, by calling for others to offer proof of something utterly and completely unrelated to the actual matter at hand.
If this were a short play, we would be well into the third act. You've somehow mistaken malleability for desperation. I have no invested interest and as such will work with whatever bizarre direction people feel like taking the thread in. However, I honestly fail to see how asking someone politely how much he makes ganking freighters is either calling for proof or unrelated to Freighter balance.
How is the isk value of the dropped modules from a freighter wreck in any way related to freighter balance?
If you examine the amount that an individual ganker however was to make from each freighter they successfully ganked and looked at the kill mail to see the value of the cargo that was carried you would see that it is generally people who carry to much value in their freighters and do not take extra precautions that get ganked. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12863
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:15:00 -
[411] - Quote
ITT Mallak Azaria graciously admits he may be wrong, meanwhile on another planet S Byerley stubbornly defends himself from all comers because he can't do the same.
There is no shame in being wrong, not being able to admit it is another matter entirely.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:17:00 -
[412] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:The ballpark figure I gave him was based on actual averages that can be cross-referenced, but he decided to brush it off because it doesn't match his false belief on the subject which he knows almost nothing about.
Your figure seems to differ from baltec's by a factor of 83; perhaps you need some inter-alliance tutorials? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:20:00 -
[413] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:There is no shame in being wrong, not being able to admit it is another matter entirely.
The assertion that a Freighter gets ganked every twenty minutes is wrong, certainly. You'll have to take that up with Mr. Man though.
ITT Freighter gankers try to justify their 167m/hr paychecks. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7752
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:25:00 -
[414] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:The ballpark figure I gave him was based on actual averages that can be cross-referenced, but he decided to brush it off because it doesn't match his false belief on the subject which he knows almost nothing about. Your figure seems to differ from baltec's by a factor of 83; perhaps you need some inter-alliance tutorials? His numbers are in line with mine. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3570
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:26:00 -
[415] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:There is no shame in being wrong, not being able to admit it is another matter entirely. The assertion that a Freighter gets ganked every twenty minutes is wrong, certainly. You'll have to take that up with Mr. Man though. ITT Freighter gankers try to justify their 167m/hr paychecks.
Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12865
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:26:00 -
[416] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Context is important, so important that you should have actually clarified exactly what you meant at the time.
Certainly, but it's also far too easy to manipulate in this setting. You'll have to forgive me for not appropriately avoiding your context gank - poorly executed as it was. Quote:Your "context" started 2 pages later, when you'd already been called out on your ridiculous statement by numerous people who had checked the facts, something you neglected to do, and actually know what they're talking about. Actually, the first person to suggest your interpretation was Tippia, to whom I responded within six minutes. The only other mentions simply asked for a specific corporation, which I was too busy avoiding gate camps to look up at the time. They were asking for a specific corporation because the usual suspects killboards and figures didn't match up to your claim. Tippia may have been the first to openly dispute it, but he certainly wasn't the first to call you out on it.
Your post had no context attached, therefore my context gank never happened, you ganked yourself.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1259
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:27:00 -
[417] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: ITT Freighter gankers try to justify their ... paychecks.
Justify it to who? Fools and their money are soon parted; operate a freighter like a fool, and you're going to lose it, and whatever is inside of it. Someone is going to benefit from that. It requires no justification.
edit: Brevity. Also, how much they may or may not make is irrelevant to freighter balance, but is a function of how much crap was inside the freighter. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12865
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:29:00 -
[418] - Quote
Who is Mr. Man? and why is he the person I should take things up with?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:29:00 -
[419] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:They were asking for a specific corporation because the usual suspects killboards and figures didn't match up to your claim. Tippia may have been the first to openly dispute it, but he certainly wasn't the first to call you out on it.
Perhaps they should have clarified the context of their question. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:31:00 -
[420] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote: ITT Freighter gankers try to justify their ... paychecks.
Justify it to who? Fools and their money are soon parted; operate a freighter like a fool, and you're going to lose it, and whatever is inside of it. Someone is going to benefit from that. It requires no justification. edit: Brevity. Also, how much they may or may not make is irrelevant to freighter balance, but is a function of how much crap was inside the freighter.
If you'd like to come full circle, I'd having trouble filling a Freighter up with anything while not making it profitable to gank.
|
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12865
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:31:00 -
[421] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:They were asking for a specific corporation because the usual suspects killboards and figures didn't match up to your claim. Tippia may have been the first to openly dispute it, but he certainly wasn't the first to call you out on it. Perhaps they should have clarified the context of their question.
How unclear is "name the corp that ganks a freighter every 20 minutes"?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16269
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:31:00 -
[422] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Justify it to who? Fools and their money are soon parted; operate a freighter like a fool, and you're going to lose it, and whatever is inside of it. Someone is going to benefit from that. It requires no justification. GǪand at the end of the day, and no matter where the number crunching ends up, that's really the whole point:
If you offer up bajillions worth of rewards and someone comes along to collect it, you aren't really in a position to complain that they are raking in bajillions worth of rewards.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:32:00 -
[423] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote: ITT Freighter gankers try to justify their ... paychecks.
Justify it to who? Fools and their money are soon parted; operate a freighter like a fool, and you're going to lose it, and whatever is inside of it. Someone is going to benefit from that. It requires no justification. edit: Brevity. Also, how much they may or may not make is irrelevant to freighter balance, but is a function of how much crap was inside the freighter.
This, so much this +1 to you sir.
As a freighter pilot this is something you should take into consideration every time you undock.
Trust me fly with this in mind you massively lower the risk you are at. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1259
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:33:00 -
[424] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Who is Mr. Man? and why is he the person I should take things up with?
Mr. Man. Mr. Straw Man. There's a picture of him here, somewhere. Byerley would rather you argue with Mr. Man. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc. Gunmen of the Apocalypse
185
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:33:00 -
[425] - Quote
It is sort of silly to have a hauler so big and defenseless that ANYTHING you can fill it with is a bad idea. that's as broken as a 600M isk battleship that can't kill any other battleships. If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3571
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:36:00 -
[426] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:They were asking for a specific corporation because the usual suspects killboards and figures didn't match up to your claim. Tippia may have been the first to openly dispute it, but he certainly wasn't the first to call you out on it. Perhaps they should have clarified the context of their question.
If this wasn't clear enough for you, then....
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes?
Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1262
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:36:00 -
[427] - Quote
Qolde wrote:It is sort of silly to have a hauler so big and defenseless that ANYTHING you can fill it with is a bad idea. that's as broken as a 600M isk battleship that can't kill any other battleships.
Unfortunately for freighter pilots, all of the stuff they get filled with is priced according to the player market.
Fortunately for freighter pilots, there is absolutely no requirement that their ship be full before they undock. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:36:00 -
[428] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact.
baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person.
You'll have to fogive me if that gets a little confusing. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1628
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:37:00 -
[429] - Quote
Qolde wrote:It is sort of silly to have a hauler so big and defenseless that ANYTHING you can fill it with is a bad idea. that's as broken as a 600M isk battleship that can't kill any other battleships. It's not defenceless though. It can be defended for a comparatively small cost.
Oh god. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7755
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:37:00 -
[430] - Quote
Qolde wrote:It is sort of silly to have a hauler so big and defenseless that ANYTHING you can fill it with is a bad idea. that's as broken as a 600M isk battleship that can't kill any other battleships.
Its meant for bulk hauling low value items. Stuffing it full high value items is where people go wrong. |
|
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:37:00 -
[431] - Quote
Qolde wrote:It is sort of silly to have a hauler so big and defenseless that ANYTHING you can fill it with is a bad idea. that's as broken as a 600M isk battleship that can't kill any other battleships.
A freighter full of trit is around 500M. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12867
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:37:00 -
[432] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Who is Mr. Man? and why is he the person I should take things up with? Mr. Man. Mr. Straw Man. There's a picture of him here, somewhere. Byerley would rather you argue with Mr. Man. Oh I see, :homer: Arguing with an inanimate object would probably be more productive to be honest.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1262
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:38:00 -
[433] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote: ITT Freighter gankers try to justify their ... paychecks.
Justify it to who? Fools and their money are soon parted; operate a freighter like a fool, and you're going to lose it, and whatever is inside of it. Someone is going to benefit from that. It requires no justification. edit: Brevity. Also, how much they may or may not make is irrelevant to freighter balance, but is a function of how much crap was inside the freighter. If you'd like to come full circle, I'd having trouble filling a Freighter up with anything while not making it profitable to gank.
There's a joke:
A man goes to a doctor, and tells him, "Doctor, when I move my arm this way, it hurts."
The doctor replies, "Then don't move your arm that way."
In your case, the joke is that you hold the belief that your freighter needs to be full in order to leave station. If it gets ganked being full, don't fill it. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3571
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:40:00 -
[434] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:S Byerley wrote: ITT Freighter gankers try to justify their ... paychecks.
Justify it to who? Fools and their money are soon parted; operate a freighter like a fool, and you're going to lose it, and whatever is inside of it. Someone is going to benefit from that. It requires no justification. edit: Brevity. Also, how much they may or may not make is irrelevant to freighter balance, but is a function of how much crap was inside the freighter. If you'd like to come full circle, I'd having trouble filling a Freighter up with anything while not making it profitable to gank.
One thing I've always supported is that suicide ganking should not be profitable at a base level. That means that a few cheap ships should not be able to suicide gank an unfit ship that is carrying no loot & still profit from it (this was the premise of the barge buff, although Fozzie has admitted that they took it too far). Even when using T1 Catalysts ganking an empty freighter is not profitable. The freighter pilot chooses to make himself a profitable gank. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3571
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:41:00 -
[435] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact. baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person. You'll have to fogive me if that gets a little confusing.
Suicide ganking isn't a taxable activity. I see where you're going wrong here, you don't understand game mechanics. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16269
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:42:00 -
[436] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person. No. He claimed that one guy with an undisclosed number of alts made 60bn in a day, and that after the loot from a gank has been split 15 ways, it'll be less per hour than what each of those characters made. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:42:00 -
[437] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
If you'd like to come full circle, I'd having trouble filling a Freighter up with anything while not making it profitable to gank.
So don't fill it, my freighter has been filled above 70% of its maximum cargo maybe 3 or 4 times ever, but it is still invaluable daily.
Just because it has the cargo space does not make it a requirement or a good idea to fill it to capacity. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:44:00 -
[438] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:In your case, the joke is that you hold the belief that your freighter needs to be full in order to leave station. If it gets ganked being full, don't fill it.
But a ship with a massive cargo hold that you can't use is badly designed? and CCP is looking to rework badly designed ships? I even cited reducing the cargo hold as a valid approach.
In any case, I'm off for now. Feel free to prattle on about how you deserve 167m/hr for high sec catalyst ganking and how everyone who disagrees is ignorant or a butt hurt Freighter pilot. |
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc. Gunmen of the Apocalypse
185
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:48:00 -
[439] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Qolde wrote:It is sort of silly to have a hauler so big and defenseless that ANYTHING you can fill it with is a bad idea. that's as broken as a 600M isk battleship that can't kill any other battleships. A freighter full of trit is around 500M. as was stated earlier in the thread who would be inefficient enough to haul a freighter full of trit due to mineral compression? its very evident that the ship balance has been far behind the Meta since abc's and then again when tiericide began. a full freighter is a dead freighter. not saying they should be ungankable with a full stack of estamels, but somethings gotta give If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16271
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:48:00 -
[440] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:So don't fill it, my freighter has been filled above 70% of its maximum cargo maybe 3 or 4 times ever, but it is still invaluable daily.
Just because it has the cargo space does not make it a requirement or a good idea to fill it to capacity. ^^^ For example, the Falcons and Zealots I was complaining about earlier required ~300k m-¦ to transport, and the inventory window claimed they were worth about 4bn ISK in total. So we decided to split it in two runs, because the current route to Jita goes straight through an interdicted system, and thus still required Freighter-sized cargo space to get the junk to market.
S Byerley wrote:But a ship with a massive cargo hold that you can't use is badly designed? You can use it just fine, so it's not particularly bad design. People stuffing them full of valuables is a bad decision though, but that's no different from blinging your cruiser-class mission ship up with billions worth of mods. Just because you put Estamels on your Tengu doesn't mean it is poorly designed for having so many midslots.
Quote:Feel free to prattle on about how you deserve 167m/hr The only one who has claimed this is you. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12867
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:48:00 -
[441] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:In your case, the joke is that you hold the belief that your freighter needs to be full in order to leave station. If it gets ganked being full, don't fill it. But a ship with a massive cargo hold that you can't use is badly designed? and CCP is looking to rework badly designed ships? I even cited reducing the cargo hold as a valid approach. In any case, I'm off for now. Feel free to prattle on about how you deserve 167m/hr for high sec catalyst ganking and how everyone who disagrees is ignorant or a butt hurt Freighter pilot. Why should CCP be forced to change a ship because of player stupidity or greed? We've already experienced that with the barge and exhumer buff, a lot of the players that use them are still stupid enough to not fit a tank, mine afk and fit cargo expanders when the Ore bay isn't affected by them.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1264
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:49:00 -
[442] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:In your case, the joke is that you hold the belief that your freighter needs to be full in order to leave station. If it gets ganked being full, don't fill it. But a ship with a massive cargo hold that you can't use is badly designed? and CCP is looking to rework badly designed ships? I even cited reducing the cargo hold as a valid approach. In any case, I'm off for now. Feel free to prattle on about how you deserve 167m/hr for high sec catalyst ganking and how everyone who disagrees is ignorant or a butt hurt Freighter pilot.
You can use it; no one says that you can't. But the solution to the problem of getting ganked for carrying too much stuff is to not carry so much stuff.
I'll address your final points out of order: The fact that you are butthurt and ignorant isn't something that needs be prattled on about. You've proven it repeatedly in this thread. Secondly, no ganker deserves 167m/hr for ganking freighters. Rather, the ingorant freighter pilot who turns his ship into a loot buffet, and makes no plans for contingencies, doesn't deserve to keep his cargo. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3819
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:52:00 -
[443] - Quote
Conclusion:
Obviously, if i walk through the bronx in an expensive armani suite, with a golden rolex on my wrist for everybody to see ...
... then it's totally not my fault when i get killed for that.
I know, real life analogies are bad ... but this one fits almost every time. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12867
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:52:00 -
[444] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:snip Rather, the ingorant freighter pilot who turns his ship into a loot buffet, and makes no plans for contingencies, doesn't deserve to keep his cargo. Unlike Matari Akiga, who strikes me as a freighter pilot who plans ahead, takes steps to mitigate risks and is generally the sort of player who will go far.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7755
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:54:00 -
[445] - Quote
Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person. No. He claimed that one guy with an undisclosed number of alts made 60bn in a day, and that after the loot from a gank has been split 15 ways, it'll be less per hour than what each of those characters made.
Best part is that I never it.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1265
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:56:00 -
[446] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:snip Rather, the ingorant freighter pilot who turns his ship into a loot buffet, and makes no plans for contingencies, doesn't deserve to keep his cargo. Unlike Matari Akiga, who strikes me as the sort of freighter pilot who plans ahead, takes steps to mitigate risks and is generally the sort of player who will go far.
If they all operated that way, you would never see these silly threads, and Bat Country would have to find something else to do for the additional hour or so they would gain everyday from not ganking a freighter every 20 minutes. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:00:00 -
[447] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:In your case, the joke is that you hold the belief that your freighter needs to be full in order to leave station. If it gets ganked being full, don't fill it. But a ship with a massive cargo hold that you can't use is badly designed? and CCP is looking to rework badly designed ships? I even cited reducing the cargo hold as a valid approach. In any case, I'm off for now. Feel free to prattle on about how you deserve 167m/hr for high sec catalyst ganking and how everyone who disagrees is ignorant or a butt hurt Freighter pilot.
I guess I am the butt hurt freighter pilot who has been offering advice to avoid getting ganked that has served me well for years, I wont complain my hauling is done not for my profit but for the benefit of my alliance mates and my PVP alt paid for the freighter (singular because I have never lost it).
Player actions change if you create an opportunity for someone to make isk at your expense they will, evolve with the times or lose your ship your choice.
P.S. quoted by Tippia I feel very important today. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16271
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:01:00 -
[448] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Best part is that I never said those words. I gave numbers on what someone with a personal fleet made shooting NPCs Yes, wellGǪ I presumed that you meant L4s since that was the point of comparison in the earlier.
Either way, neither the source nor the number of people involved in making that ISK was what S Byerley suggested. vOv GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:07:00 -
[449] - Quote
Qolde wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Qolde wrote:It is sort of silly to have a hauler so big and defenseless that ANYTHING you can fill it with is a bad idea. that's as broken as a 600M isk battleship that can't kill any other battleships. A freighter full of trit is around 500M. as was stated earlier in the thread who would be inefficient enough to haul a freighter full of trit due to mineral compression? its very evident that the ship balance has been far behind the Meta since abc's and then again when tiericide began. a full freighter is a dead freighter. not saying they should be ungankable with a full stack of estamels, but somethings gotta give
Sure, if you've got the compression set up. There's also things like ores and ice if you need to move to a refinery system, as well as fitted ships, ihubs, and their upgrades. Those are just off the top of my head. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12868
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:10:00 -
[450] - Quote
I have a question..
How soon after Odyssey 1.1 hits will we see more threads like this because someone filled the specialist bay of the ships formerly known as Iterons to the brim, thus making them pinatas, with PI products/minerals/ore/ice/gas?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3572
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:13:00 -
[451] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I have a question..
How soon after Odyssey 1.1 hits will we see more threads like this because someone filled the specialist bay of the ships formerly known as Iterons to the brim, thus making them pinatas, with PI products/minerals/ore/ice/gas?
To be safe I give it 7 days. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
420
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:15:00 -
[452] - Quote
This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16273
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:17:00 -
[453] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. Oh the humanity. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1269
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:18:00 -
[454] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I have a question..
How soon after Odyssey 1.1 hits will we see more threads like this because someone filled the specialist bay of the ships formerly known as Iterons to the brim, thus making them pinatas, with PI products/minerals/ore/ice/gas? To be safe I give it 7 days.
I'll give them the first day as a pass because of people playing with all sorts of new things, and all the ignorant masses showing up to complain after discovering that their indy hauler has been changed overnight.
I honestly think it will be the second day before someone comes in here screeching about how CCP painted a target on them with their 'crappy changes,' and they lost their Itty III with no tank, a festival launcher, and 40k m3 of enriched uranium. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1269
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:18:00 -
[455] - Quote
Tippia wrote:ISD Ezwal wrote:This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. Oh the humanity.
Even ISD recognizes when the thread is done and needs to be put down. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:21:00 -
[456] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 You can scout it, you can have a friend or alt web your freighter, & your giant cargohold with an engine strapped to it is the inherent tank. You can do many things to mitigate the risk of a successful suicide gank being performed, you just choose not to. You choose to be a victim. Another good question for you, try to answer this one: If using ISboxer to scan a freighter, bump it, suicide gank it with 15 accounts then loot it with another freighter is so easy, why is literally no one doing this?
"Literally" "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2658
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:22:00 -
[457] - Quote
Tippia wrote:You can use it just fine, so it's not particularly bad design. People stuffing them full of valuables is a bad decision though, but that's no different from blinging your cruiser-class mission ship up with billions worth of mods. Just because you put Estamels on your Tengu doesn't mean it is poorly designed for having so many midslots.
This exactly. Because a ship can fit modules doesn't mean it's a good idea to stuff it full of stuff other people will want.
Same with Freighters, a huge cargohold doesn't mean you can stuff it full of the most expensive stuff. It's amazing to me that people feel entitled to either bling their ships or stuff their freighters, this is a sandbox, and in sandbox games many people will jsut take what they want. Knowing that should dictate a players behavior, but it doesn't, it just makes the whine and ask for changes more.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3572
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:23:00 -
[458] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I have a question..
How soon after Odyssey 1.1 hits will we see more threads like this because someone filled the specialist bay of the ships formerly known as Iterons to the brim, thus making them pinatas, with PI products/minerals/ore/ice/gas? To be safe I give it 7 days. I'll give them the first day as a pass because of people playing with all sorts of new things, and all the ignorant masses showing up to complain after discovering that their indy hauler has been changed overnight. I honestly think it will be the second day before someone comes in here screeching about how CCP painted a target on them with their 'crappy changes,' and they lost their Itty III with no tank, a festival launcher, and 40k m3 of enriched uranium.
I was going to make my personal project a highsec wide ban on "Illegal Orca's", but I might put that on hold to randomly suicide gank the changed haulers for a couple of weeks. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3572
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:25:00 -
[459] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 You can scout it, you can have a friend or alt web your freighter, & your giant cargohold with an engine strapped to it is the inherent tank. You can do many things to mitigate the risk of a successful suicide gank being performed, you just choose not to. You choose to be a victim. Another good question for you, try to answer this one: If using ISboxer to scan a freighter, bump it, suicide gank it with 15 accounts then loot it with another freighter is so easy, why is literally no one doing this? "Literally"
Yep, literally. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2658
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:29:00 -
[460] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Conclusion:
Obviously, if i walk through the bronx in an expensive armani suite, with a golden rolex on my wrist for everybody to see ...
... then it's totally not my fault when i get killed for that.
I know, real life analogies are bad ... but this one fits almost every time.
I 100% agree with you.
Many people don't though, they would claim that you are "blaming the victim" in this politically correct world of professional victimhood. I work in a field where I deal with victims of such events daily and I want to shake my head all the time.
In one case, on guy was mad at me and people in my line of work because "you guys are never around when we need you".....as if it were somehow our fault that he decided to leave a brand new laptop AND a tablet plus his new iphone on the front seat (in plain view, he didn't even have tinted windows) of an unlocked car in a high crime neighborhood while he shopped. |
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:33:00 -
[461] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Because in RL if a freighter sees a bunch of small boats assembling they call one of the navy fleets patrolling nearby and if those small boats don't have a good reason or are armed they get warned and then wtfpwned. In EvE the Navy just sits there and even let's the pirates scoop the loot. Completely different. Freighter pilots are capable of calling the navy for support as long as it they don't expect support from an NPC faction navy, just like RL. That's true however it then becomes more profitable to use another ship solo making the freighter useless. High sec is supposed to be relatively safe not more dangerous then null which it is for freighters.
In some respects highsec is quite a bit more dangerous than anywhere else. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3572
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:34:00 -
[462] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Solstice Project wrote:Conclusion:
Obviously, if i walk through the bronx in an expensive armani suite, with a golden rolex on my wrist for everybody to see ...
... then it's totally not my fault when i get killed for that.
I know, real life analogies are bad ... but this one fits almost every time. I 100% agree with you. Many people don't though, they would claim that you are "blaming the victim" in this politically correct world of professional victimhood. I work in a field where I deal with victims of such events daily and I want to shake my head all the time. In one case, on guy was mad at me and people in my line of work because "you guys are never around when we need you".....as if it were somehow our fault that he decided to leave a brand new laptop AND a smaller tablet plus he new iphone on the front seat (in plain view, he didn't even have tinted windows) of an unlocked car in a high crime neighborhood while he shopped.
Well to be fair, blaming the victim in reality isn't always correct (**** victims, mass shooting victims, suicide bomber victims all come to mind). The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1269
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:34:00 -
[463] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I was going to make my personal project a highsec wide ban on "Illegal Orca's", but I might put that on hold to randomly suicide gank the changed haulers for a couple of weeks.
This will be lol-worthy.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:36:00 -
[464] - Quote
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:Dave Stark wrote:KnowUsByTheDead wrote:We don't. In that case then, I guess I would be upset if CCP wasted their time changing things that don't need changing instead of continuing with balancing ships that do actually need rebalancing. Balancing ships that need it? Hell, not only that...how about a updated drone UI? I could name a thousand things, and I have just now entered my third year. But no...we must cater to those who buy expensive things and then do not know how to use them. Instead, they run to GD crying, when the reality is they shouldn't have undocked it if they cannot get behind a game called Everyone vs. Everyone.
I invite you to read Jester's Trek. Notably, his current 3 day sohourn to the CCP CSM summit.
Has some pretty good information there. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:41:00 -
[465] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any.
Code Logistics? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:48:00 -
[466] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Still waiting for an answer from Infinity Ziona on how likely a naval anti piracy operation being close to a ship threatened by pirates is, in an area that's 67% of the size of Europe.
Not to speak for that person, but most acts of piracy aren't done way out in true open water.
2 main reasons come to mind (even though I admittedly do not truly know) and that would be
1. Open water. That's a lot of ocean, just like in Eve and with jumpgates, you have "lanes" which would give you a better target rich environment. Shallower areas would give way to smoother waters for such tactics that "pirates" employ since more often than not, since land brings it's own levels of cover and ability to hide.
2. Ports. No matter where in the Ocean that liner may be, it lands at a port, or launches from a port. Much like stations, trade hubs, pos's and jump gates, give an indication of where that freighter would be vulnerable.
I do not really see any suicide gank squads scanning open systems for freighters...
Sorry for interrupting, but seeing you post your intent to wait for someone else to respond was driving me nuts. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 19:51:00 -
[467] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[ Quote:Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. This is already the case. The best way of surviving is to ensure that it's too costly for the gankers to attack you.Quote:They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself. No, they absolutely must not. The last time CCP tried to balance according to cost, we got Titans GÇö a ship that causes balance problems to this day. They have since learned the single truth about ship balancing: cost is not a balancing factor, and requiring equal cost for a kill is as idiotic an idea as they come because it means that bigger is always better; that small ships have no reason to exist; and that there is no way for the little guy to ever beat the big guy. It only ever creates horrible gameplay without any semblance of balance. You can use 0 ISK worth of ships to destroy any other ship in the game. This is as it should be.
That contradicts your answers. Or is that to be seen as an agreement from you? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:19:00 -
[468] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Last I heard Goons were at 500 billion in losses for around 5 trillion in profits from their high sec ganking. Slight imbalance there. A 10:1 ROI for a carefully chosen application of ships and skills? Seems fairly reasonable. Then again, they don't indiscriminately gank freighters every 20 minutes, so they don't really qualify regardless.
Neither do mission blitzers do every and any mission that gets handed to them to do. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1269
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:22:00 -
[469] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
That contradicts your answers. Or is that to be seen as an agreement from you?
Noobships are free, and come armed. In sufficient numbers, they can be used to kill anything in the game, from other noobships to titans. Considering that cost is apparently now a balance factor, this makes the noobship the most OP and unbalanced item in the entire game. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Obunagawe
223
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:25:00 -
[470] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
That contradicts your answers. Or is that to be seen as an agreement from you?
Noobships are free, and come armed. In sufficient numbers, they can be used to kill anything in the game, from other noobships to titans. Considering that cost is apparently now a balance factor, this makes the noobship the most OP and unbalanced item in the entire game.
You utter autist. |
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:35:00 -
[471] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The cargohold of a freighter would have to be nerfed by a certain percentage to make up for every low slot or rig slot that it gained. To haul iHubs & Station egg's the freighter pilot would have to fit cargohold expanders. Tippia did all of the math on this awhile back, he might post it if you ask nicely.
What about mids? Or specific sized modules for those technically not a capital freighter?
What about adding something instead of just taking away? There's plenty of battleship and capital modules that just dont fit to any ship and also have serious penalties when fitted to other ships not meant for those modules.
No need to have to change the hull itself. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:37:00 -
[472] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Then explain why a pilot who has had his combat capital ship reimbursed has to move it out of highsec as soon as possible?
Uhm, because CCP doesn't want them used in highsec? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:42:00 -
[473] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Lugalbandak wrote: well then tey can make it easy , all the mods you fit , except the ******* damn cargo expanders. thats was not hard was it?
edit: BATTLE CHARON WHOEIIIIII
How would you tank a Charon? The base stats are, excluding resists : Shield 6000 HP Armour 20000 HP Structure 106250 HP CPU 1.15 PG 1.15 You can't have low slots, because that would allow a cargo expander, which in turn allows the transport of packaged capships in highsec, it's unreasonable of you to expect CCP to do the work to prevent the fitting of a cargo expander to 1 class of ship. No low slots means no armour tank, and no Damage Control. So you're left with mid slots, 6000 base HP on shield puts it somewhere between the base stats of a shield tanking BC and BS, however there's not enough CPU or PG to fit anything there. So basically what you're asking for is for CCP to not balance, but completely rework freighters. All because people insist on stuffing the things to the brim, going afk, and autopiloting though chokepoint systems that are renowned for being gank alley. I think that's somewhat unreasonable.
Or add the caveat to the cargo expander mod "cannot be fit to .X. ships".
Or how about a drone bay, or about make drones be able to rep yourself (which I think would add more benefit than hurt all around as a blanket change to drones) or how about a change to the balancing of freighters (capital class?) that they do not get a benefit from cargo expanders.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:45:00 -
[474] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
They already did that in the first place to prevent freighters from hauling them in the first time.
And they can do it again. Freighters are used to pad killboard ISK values. They don't do their job anymore. Because a green killboard makes you awesome, just ask -a-
I don't think we are allowed to talk back to them =/ "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:53:00 -
[475] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Eram Fidard wrote:Since hi-sec is so big, has so many people in it -and is (according to the whiners) 95% filled with gankers and griefers- I can't help but wonder where are the white knights?
Seems pretty easy to whine nonsensically about things like RL navies and EHP ratios while completely ignoring personal responsibility, or teamwork, things gankers are comfortable with.
Much easier to post a thread, start an argument, than actually do something. You think RL navies and coast guards are full of NPCs who fulfill their responsibilities because of code? No, they are full of real people who are there because they want to make a real difference.
If gankers are so prevalent, you should be able to provide content for dozens or hundreds of white knight types, patrolling the space lanes, ensuring evildoers get their just desserts (or some other polarized nonsense). Take some personal responsibility, would ya? Just for one moment, stop the flow of tears, adjust the whine down to a minimum, and use your brain. I've got a few amazing ideas perfectly suited for people looking to make hi-sec a 'safer' place; but if you're unwilling to use a webbing ship, a scout, or the smallest modicum of common sense, I'm willing to bet that is out of your reach.
Gankers=knowledgeable, connected people who organise together for a common goal
Freighter Victims=insular, unorganised, or ignorant players unwilling to work together or do anything to change their circumstance (and the occasional unlucky bastard I'm sure =)
Teamwork and collective effort is an unfamiliar concept to some people.
That's a good point. If teamwork and collective effort are so important to this game, why are all the ships single pilot?
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:55:00 -
[476] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better.
At it's role maybe. But I doubt across the board. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
461
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:58:00 -
[477] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Eram Fidard wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Cost is a balancing factor in EvE, always has been and always will be. citation needed. ccp said it wasn't during the mining barge rebalance. Perhaps they were speaking about mining barges. In EvE every ship has base build costs, compare any ship with its base build cost vs another, the one with the higher build cost will have more survivability and perform substantially better. Too delusional. Can't tell if troll. If you fail to see how build cost -> survivability -> gankabilty don't correlate I have to assume you don't actually play EvE.
Did you know the venture and the iteron are both industrials, and roughly cost the same amount? Read the ship descriptions of both. You'll learn there is quite a bit of difference between the 2 ships. And neither can do each others' roles the same. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Dave Stark
3452
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:19:00 -
[478] - Quote
i go out for dinner and you guys fill 4 pages. good job.
and oh **** murk is posting, this is going nowhere good. |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:20:00 -
[479] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Skydell wrote:I know what I am talking about and you can kiss my ass. I'm right.
No you don't, going by the information you've supplied.
What parts were wrong, bucket mouth? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3573
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:21:00 -
[480] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Code Logistics?
They don't even indiscriminately gank a barge every 20 minutes.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3573
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:21:00 -
[481] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Skydell wrote:I know what I am talking about and you can kiss my ass. I'm right.
No you don't, going by the information you've supplied. What parts were wrong, bucket mouth?
I've already answered this.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3573
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:23:00 -
[482] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
The cargohold of a freighter would have to be nerfed by a certain percentage to make up for every low slot or rig slot that it gained. To haul iHubs & Station egg's the freighter pilot would have to fit cargohold expanders. Tippia did all of the math on this awhile back, he might post it if you ask nicely.
What about mids? Or specific sized modules for those technically not a capital freighter? What about adding something instead of just taking away? There's plenty of battleship and capital modules that just dont fit to any ship and also have serious penalties when fitted to other ships not meant for those modules. No need to have to change the hull itself.
Sure, but since a freighter, like an Orca, tanks with it's structure...
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:30:00 -
[483] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Skydell wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Skydell wrote:I know what I am talking about and you can kiss my ass. I'm right.
No you don't, going by the information you've supplied. What parts were wrong, bucket mouth? I've already answered this.
No you didn't.
You mean the part where I said you get suspect for web use?
Suspect, what I said the first time, what I said this time. Criminal? Like you implied? No, I said suspect.
Freighter doesn't take 'very long' to warp when you dual web. It warps immediately. A frigate can beat the freighter to the next gate but can't jump through. It sits there with a suspect timer. Do it 15 or 20 jumps.
And don't forget to ignore the part about remote repair being a comedy side show because the ship is hull tanked. Ignore the fact that you can't Agi stack a freighter because it has no cap skills and ignore the fact that the web doesn't work if the ship gets bumped. You still do a bump spool down.
You are full of it up to your ears and you know it. Freighters are pinata's on a stick. You like them that way and you want them to stay that way. You don't want them balanced for the new Alpha strike ability of your throw away tier 3 BC's. You like cow kills. You don't want people flying freighters to have a snowballs chance in hell.
We done? |
Dave Stark
3452
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:38:00 -
[484] - Quote
please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name. |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:45:00 -
[485] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name.
Troll away, troll boy. Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right.
you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that. |
Dave Stark
3452
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:47:00 -
[486] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name. Troll away, troll boy. Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right. you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that.
except; you're not right. |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:53:00 -
[487] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name. Troll away, troll boy. Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right. you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that. except; you're not right.
So you keep saying and yet I know better.
And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect. |
Dave Stark
3452
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 21:57:00 -
[488] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name. Troll away, troll boy. Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right. you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that. except; you're not right. So you keep saying and yet I know better. And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect.
you don't and that's why it's so hilarious to see you posting such hideous errors. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3145
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:07:00 -
[489] - Quote
Skydell wrote:You mean the part where I said you get suspect for web use? In-corp friends/alts don't get suspect status for webbing. Having an out-of-corp friend/alt "duel" your freighter and web it will not incur a suspect timer.
Skydell wrote:Freighter doesn't take 'very long' to warp when you dual web. It warps immediately. A frigate can beat the freighter to the next gate but can't jump through. It sits there with a suspect timer. Do it 15 or 20 jumps. Because the freighter warps slow the aggression timer on the webber will usually be half up or expired by the time the freighter arrives. And even if it doesn't, the freighter aligns slow enough it is actually worth holding cloak until the webber jumps through.
Skydell wrote:And don't forget to ignore the part about remote repair being a comedy side show because the ship is hull tanked. Ignore the fact that you can't Agi stack a freighter because it has no cap skills and ignore the fact that the web doesn't work if the ship gets bumped. You still do a bump spool down. The point of remote repping a freighter isn't to keep its armor HP at full... it's to stall the gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive. Most ganks that aren't done for "lols" operate on razor-thin DPS margins with some "extra" for "just in case"... so if you can negate some of that incoming damage the freighter will usually survive.
Skydell wrote:You are full of it up to your ears and you know it. Freighters are pinata's on a stick. You like them that way and you want them to stay that way. You don't want them balanced for the new Alpha strike ability of your throw away tier 3 BC's. You like cow kills. You don't want people flying freighters to have a snowballs chance in hell. Interesting fact... ganking freighters is more expensive than it ever has been.
In the "old days" (before Tier 3 BCs) people used artillery-fit Tempests. A Tempest hull around those times sold for a little more than what Teir 3s cost now. Also note that during this time people could still get insurance for ships they suicided... which meant that failing a gank resulted in minimal economic loss for the gankers. And the loot-drop mechanics haven't changed. There is a ~50/50 chance that a particular item will drop upon ship destruction. This has to be factored in when ganking for purely economic reasons.
And again... adding slots to freighters would require that the ship be nerfed in various stats to compensate. Want more low-slots? Have to remove some cargo-hold, hull, speed, agility, and armor. Mid-slots? Some shields and speed have to be removed. Why do this? Because people have this nasty tendency to min/max and produce off-the-wall setups that would result in "dumb" things (like capitals being moved to high-sec, setups that require an impossibly high number of people to crack, freighters that can insta-warp themselves, rainbow ponies, etc). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1273
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:09:00 -
[490] - Quote
So basically, the gist of the thread so far:
There is exactly one player in EVE that gets a suspect timer for webbing an in-corp alt. Unless Skydell is using an out-of-corp alt, in which case Skydell needs to learn agression mechanics and figure out how to initiate a duel.
Gankers gonna gank, because lulz and greed.
Freighters gonna max capacity because of stupid and greed.
CCP, in order to facilitate the reformation of both parties, the solution is clear.
You must significantly nerf the cargo capacity of all freighters, so as you prevent freighter pilots from being tempted to carry too much stuff, and to prevent gankers being tempted to gank for profit.
Nuke cargo capacity from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11853
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:13:00 -
[491] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? It's unfair because I disagree with you, and I am by definition always right therefore you are wrong for even daring to type some words on the Internet that disagree with me. Mods! Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11853
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:13:00 -
[492] - Quote
And how many total freighters do you think there are, on any given day, flying through High Sec without being ganked? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:15:00 -
[493] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name. Troll away, troll boy. Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right. you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that. except; you're not right. So you keep saying and yet I know better. And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect. you don't and that's why it's so hilarious to see you posting such hideous errors.
Anyone joining in at this point.
- Can't remote repair a freighter. Hull tank and end of cycle repairs nullify it - Agi stacks on a freighter make no appreciable difference, don't waste your time - Stasis webbifiers work but the web frigate gets a countdown and can't jump so you need to hold on each gate and wait for them to come though - Stasis Webbifiers don't work when the freighter gets bumped. It needs to spool down and re-align before it can warp and takes longer than a squad needs to pop it - Giving a freighter rigs and a low slot could be done by making packed size of Carriers and Dreadnaughts 3X what they are now. It won't impact mechanics, it was done on several items for various reasons.
But flapjaw above says I am wrong. Feel free to test these in test server.
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:17:00 -
[494] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:The value of the ship that is destroyed in no way affects the profit the gankers make, in order for a gank to be profitable the value of the cargo and modules that drop would have to be worth more than the cost of the ships used in the gank and the time that would be required to grind the security status back up for the characters.
So don't fill your freighter with shiny's/keep the value low of what you haul or bring friends.
I know how this works I have done thousands of runs between Jita and Amarr in a freighter and I have never been ganked even though I have been ship scanned many times, I dont make it worth the while. This guy from Page One knows exactly what's up. Outside of a few "for fun" instances, or competitions like Hulkageddon, the vast majority of people who gank freighters are doing it because they think it will turn them a profit. The expected value of the loot drops carried by most freighters that have been ganked are high enough to make them worthwhile targets. If you make yourself a less appealing target by carrying less per run, then you are less likely to get ganked.
But of course you won't listen. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:17:00 -
[495] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:
Troll away, troll boy. Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right.
you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that.
except; you're not right. So you keep saying and yet I know better. And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect. you don't and that's why it's so hilarious to see you posting such hideous errors. Anyone joining in at this point. - Can't remote repair a freighter. Hull tank and end of cycle repairs nullify it - Agi stacks on a freighter make no appreciable difference, don't waste your time - Stasis webbifiers work but the web frigate gets a countdown and can't jump so you need to hold on each gate and wait for them to come though - Stasis Webbifiers don't work when the freighter gets bumped. It needs to spool down and re-align before it can warp and takes longer than a squad needs to pop it - Giving a freighter rigs and a low slot could be done by making packed size of Carriers and Dreadnaughts 3X what they are now. It won't impact mechanics, it was done on several items for various reasons. But flapjaw above says I am wrong. Feel free to test these in test server.
The original post you made said that in-corp webbing gives a suspect timer, which anyone with a passing understanding of highsec mechanics would know is a lie. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:19:00 -
[496] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 Have you tried being less greedy with how much stuff you pile into your loot pi+¦ata? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:23:00 -
[497] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote: Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
It sounds to me like your issue is not so much with your inability to keep your freighter alive (my condolences), but with your dislike for the ISBoxer program and people who run multiple accounts of EVE Online. That is something you are going to have to get over. Realize that even if it wasn't someone with ISBoxer, people could easily be that organized: within my own alliance, there are fleets of people out and about suicide ganking people every day with the kind of coordination you describe. While your particular encounter may have been one guy commanding many clients, the end result is the same: a bunch of ships attack yours and you lose your ship. This is an intended game mechanic. You need to find ways to deal with it.
Though it does seem odd that Freighters and Jump Freighters are the only ships with no fitting slots. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:29:00 -
[498] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Bring logi. But that would require active piloting and player interaction that people AFKing their loot pi+¦atas through high sec are dreadfully afraid of or otherwise do not want to do. Just look at Gevlon "Regional Arbitrage" Goblin as an example: this fellow made his space fortune by autopiloting freighters between Amarr and Jita, and has terrible social skills. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:30:00 -
[499] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:
So you keep saying and yet I know better.
And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect.
you don't and that's why it's so hilarious to see you posting such hideous errors. Anyone joining in at this point. - Can't remote repair a freighter. Hull tank and end of cycle repairs nullify it - Agi stacks on a freighter make no appreciable difference, don't waste your time - Stasis webbifiers work but the web frigate gets a countdown and can't jump so you need to hold on each gate and wait for them to come though - Stasis Webbifiers don't work when the freighter gets bumped. It needs to spool down and re-align before it can warp and takes longer than a squad needs to pop it - Giving a freighter rigs and a low slot could be done by making packed size of Carriers and Dreadnaughts 3X what they are now. It won't impact mechanics, it was done on several items for various reasons. But flapjaw above says I am wrong. Feel free to test these in test server. The original post you made said that in-corp webbing gives a suspect timer, which anyone with a passing understanding of highsec mechanics would know is a lie.
In corp, In fleet and I was given a suspect timer. Keep up the strawman arguments though. No worries, in case you haven't noticed I bait easy on the forums. I'm sure if you work really hard like a good little Shapiro forum warrior you will get me on some other bullshit technicality. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:31:00 -
[500] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter. I honestly agree with you that, for the sake of consistency, Freighters and Jump Freights ought to have fitting slots.
Quote:You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed. As opposed to yourself, who is in favour of changes to freighters (and therefore somehow not biased)?
Quote:I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. I agree with you, but not for the reasons you espouse; moreover, I dislike the ad hominems you have employed. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
|
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:32:00 -
[501] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Bring logi. But that would require active piloting and player interaction that people AFKing their loot pi+¦atas through high sec are dreadfully afraid of or otherwise do not want to do. Just look at Gevlon "Regional Arbitrage" Goblin as an example: this fellow made his space fortune by autopiloting freighters between Amarr and Jita, and has terrible social skills.
Brought many Logi. The freighter popped before the cycle completed. The repairs never even calculated. Or am I supposed to know 15 seconds before they fire an alpha volley so I can time the logi? |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:32:00 -
[502] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 15 pilots is still 15 pilots, regardless of the number of players controlling them. And that is exactly why CCP will never nerf ISBoxer, nor should they: 15 pilots is still 15 accounts, paying 15 subscriptions, and making the company 15 times the money of the one guy whining about getting his over-stuffed freighter killed through negligence. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:35:00 -
[503] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 You can scout it, you can have a friend or alt web your freighter, & your giant cargohold with an engine strapped to it is the inherent tank. You can do many things to mitigate the risk of a successful suicide gank being performed, you just choose not to. You choose to be a victim. Another good question for you, try to answer this one: If using ISboxer to scan a freighter, bump it, suicide gank it with 15 accounts then loot it with another freighter is so easy, why is literally no one doing this? About the only thing I would personally trust ISBoxer to do is multibox mining, and even then only because there are very few individual player inputs required for that activity. It is difficult to get your UI set up properly to multibox anything more complex, and while doing so is clearly possible it represents an effort-to-reward threshold that I am unwilling to scale. If there is one guy doing this with fifteen accounts, then more power to him. And if it is literally just the one guy, then all the OP needs to do is watchlist his "main," bumping character, and scout for him. There are all sorts of things that the OP can do to gain intel and avoid bad situations. I agree with you entirely: he is choosing to be a victim, and expecting the game to be changed so that he can continue his same behaviour without any risk. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:36:00 -
[504] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca. They would use shield tanks of course! :haw: Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:37:00 -
[505] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:
So you keep saying and yet I know better.
And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect.
you don't and that's why it's so hilarious to see you posting such hideous errors. Anyone joining in at this point. - Can't remote repair a freighter. Hull tank and end of cycle repairs nullify it - Agi stacks on a freighter make no appreciable difference, don't waste your time - Stasis webbifiers work but the web frigate gets a countdown and can't jump so you need to hold on each gate and wait for them to come though - Stasis Webbifiers don't work when the freighter gets bumped. It needs to spool down and re-align before it can warp and takes longer than a squad needs to pop it - Giving a freighter rigs and a low slot could be done by making packed size of Carriers and Dreadnaughts 3X what they are now. It won't impact mechanics, it was done on several items for various reasons. But flapjaw above says I am wrong. Feel free to test these in test server. The original post you made said that in-corp webbing gives a suspect timer, which anyone with a passing understanding of highsec mechanics would know is a lie. In corp, In fleet and I was given a suspect timer. Keep up the strawman arguments though. No worries, in case you haven't noticed I bait easy on the forums. I'm sure if you work really hard like a good little Shapiro forum warrior you will get me on some other bullshit technicality.
File a petition. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:38:00 -
[506] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:Lucy Hastmena wrote:Dave Stark wrote:remind me again how it's unfair to freighter pilots that it requires over 15 pilots to kill 1 ship? ok you dont get it, no problem i explain it again, also for the really slow thinking people like you. This is not about a fight, this is about SUIZID gankers. There will be no Fight or something like that. There is even not a fault of the Freighter Pilot necessary like jumping into low sec or undocking during war. And of Course you dont need 15 Pilots, just one Player with ISBoxer will kill you and you dont have even the Chance to do anything. You cant warp away, you cant fit tank, you cant scout ( they bump you until their gank squad logged in) There is absolute nothing you can do about. Tell this guy your story, guess he needs to know: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19440276 If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. If you put 10 billion isks worth of faction shiny's in a freighter and auto pilot... well a fool and his things are quickly parted and rightly too if you look at the 10 Bil + kills on eve kill the loses on there are normally not capital or super caps they are transport ships, where people are stupid there is an almost 13 billion isk Badger 2 that dropped nearly 8 bil in loot, people need to stop being so amazingly stupid. It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever? Math is hard. Statistics is harder. "Expected value?" "Investments?" Get out of here with that elitist jargon! :bahgawd: Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:38:00 -
[507] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever? I'd invest heavily in this. Seconded. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:39:00 -
[508] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever? I'd invest heavily in this. To be completely honest, I don't kill freighters in highsec for the profit, I do it so people will create terrible threads like this. And that's why you're a goon hero. :swoon: Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:39:00 -
[509] - Quote
MetaSwarm propaganda team is in overdrive on this one.
You watching CCP? |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:40:00 -
[510] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank loaded with trit. Did it occur to you that perhaps it shouldn't be filled just because it's there? Or that perhaps you should not fly it solo if you are going to fill it to the point of being profitable to gank? Or that perhaps you should not expect to just walk away from the computer with your freighter on autopilot and expect it to be alive when you return? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
|
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:40:00 -
[511] - Quote
Skydell wrote:MetaSwarm propaganda team is in overdrive on this one.
You watching CCP? I only noticed this thread because a bunch of my threads got moved to F&I, and this was the most active non-sticky thread in that particular subforum at the time. Expect to see a lot of me in the near future. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:42:00 -
[512] - Quote
guys ccp is giving me suspect flags for legal aggression, yes it's happening, no i won't give any proof, all goons are filthy liars, CCP HELP ME NOW!!!!! |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:42:00 -
[513] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:It cost about 100 mil to get almost 8 Billion isks worth of drops if you have ever done any trading tell me that is not the best investment ever? I'd invest heavily in this. To be completely honest, I don't kill freighters in highsec for the profit, I do it so people will create terrible threads like this. I'd still call the entertainment value of these threads a healthy profit. This raises the question, "What is value?" And where does it come from? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:44:00 -
[514] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. Why do they need to be able to fit a tank? The real world equivalent of a freighter would be something like a bulk oil carrier, which like a freighter can't fit a tank, can be overcome by a smaller force (see Somalian pirates) and can have it's direction of travel affected by smaller vessels, known as tugs. An Orca is more of a multipurpose vessel, while primarily an industrial logistics platform, unlike a freighter it can be used for multiple purposes. An Orca can sacrifice cargo space to fit a tank, a lot of Orca pilots don't bother though and go for max cargo, those *all Orcas are as easy if not easier to kill than a freighter. *edit, turns out a properly tanked Orca requires the same amount of ships to kill as a jump freighter, it can't pack 3 x the EHP Barring perfect skills, the Orca is one of the few ships where hull tanking is the best option. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11854
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:45:00 -
[515] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank carrying nothing but trit who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. Opportunity cost versus risk is not an equation that people are very good at understanding. It's the same reason you see folks pile faction, deadspace, and officer modules onto mission or ratting ships for minimal gains. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
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Posted - 2013.08.31 22:49:00 -
[516] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:guys ccp is giving me suspect flags for legal aggression, yes it's happening, no i won't give any proof, all goons are filthy liars, CCP HELP ME NOW!!!!!
I don't mind if they give me suspect. I do mind when the only viable way to move a freighter out of harms way is to manipulate mechanics not intended to be used that way.
Keep trying failhard goon. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:50:00 -
[517] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. I disagree: the cargo hold should actually be bigger. You have no idea how much of a hassle it is to move some truly huge loads around in nullsec, when you are limited to moving less than a million cubic meters per pilot per trip. And the same could be said of folks in high sec, or anywhere that anyone wants to move a truly enormous bulk to supply an area. I think a great many people would love it if the cargo holds of Freighters and Jump Freighters were expanded, or if a new class of Super Freighters were introduced. Even following the best advice on how to avoid being an awful loss mail, right now Freighters and Jump Freighters are limited in how quickly they can service an area. Consider that whenever a major war starts in null sec, literally several billion cubic meters of sovereignty structures needs to be moved; consider that whenever a major deployment occurs anywhere, literally billions of cubic meters of ships and modules need to be shipped; consider that whenever a new devblog is released, literally trillions of cubic meters of every goddamned thing needs to be moved around to supply trade hubs. If anything, Freighters are too small for being the end of the spectrum for hauling. Folks just need to protect their assets, which being AFK, solo, and autopiloting does not accomplish. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:51:00 -
[518] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:guys ccp is giving me suspect flags for legal aggression, yes it's happening, no i won't give any proof, all goons are filthy liars, CCP HELP ME NOW!!!!! I don't mind if they give me suspect. I do mind when the only viable way to move a freighter out of harms way is to manipulate mechanics not intended to be used that way. Keep trying failhard goon. Why are you arguing about it if you think he's wrong and that he won't stop repeating the same arguments? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:52:00 -
[519] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:There's a really good reason that professional hauliers such as Red Frog have a collateral limit. They don't like having massive targets painted on their freighters.
edit - I stand corrected on Orcas, but overall they're less profitable to gank, as you can't fill a properly tanked Orca with as much crap. I knew I should have checked the EHP, Infinity Ziona generally doesn't have a clue, but like a moron I took it at face value, the original post has been corrected, strikethrough text is what was incorrect. I respect your choice to use strikethrough rather than merely edit out the inaccurate information. +1 Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:52:00 -
[520] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:guys ccp is giving me suspect flags for legal aggression, yes it's happening, no i won't give any proof, all goons are filthy liars, CCP HELP ME NOW!!!!! I don't mind if they give me suspect. I do mind when the only viable way to move a freighter out of harms way is to manipulate mechanics not intended to be used that way. Keep trying failhard goon.
You should, because CCP says the only way to get a suspect flag in highsec is stealing or through logistics. |
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:53:00 -
[521] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense. One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank loaded with trit. Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. He has a cargo hold, and it absolutely has to be filled. Damn the risk, opportunity cost! Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:54:00 -
[522] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling. You will find the vast majority of folks who propose changes to the game do so for self-serving reasons. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:55:00 -
[523] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. Station egg's & iHubs come to mind. Improper use of an apostrophe: ten points from Gryffindor. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 22:58:00 -
[524] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca. Since its already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity those foolish enough to fit expanders making them even easier to gank and then filling the expanded space with more loot would find themselves in pods very quickly. And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool. It is absolutely not foolish to fill a freighter to capacity. Filling a freighter to capacity is literally the only way to move several items in the game from one place to another. Freighters that are properly scouted, escorted, and defended are an invaluable tool for moving large masses across all ranges of distance. What you mean to say is: "It's already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity and then AFK autopilot it solo without scouting it, adding known gankers to watchlist, or otherwise taking any effort to ensure that it arrives at its destination safely beyond whining on the forums about it." And that is very true. In general when you take no effort to ensure the safety of your assets, you run a risk of them being compromised. This is why people lock their doors at night; this is why people install car alarms; this is why people pay taxes to support a military and police force; and, this is why you use scouts, escorts, and watchlists in EVE Online. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:00:00 -
[525] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.
Really? it's considered bad form for civilian bulk carriers to be packing armed crewmen or guards, many ports won't let civilian vessels dock if there are armed personnel aboard. Source : United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea Pfft, as if proving someone's argument wrong on the Internet has ever gotten them to admit it. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:01:00 -
[526] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca. Since its already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity those foolish enough to fit expanders making them even easier to gank and then filling the expanded space with more loot would find themselves in pods very quickly. And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool. I didn't give a real world example, but you seem very sure that I infact did. Please underline my real world example. Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? Caught in a landslide No escape from reality Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:01:00 -
[527] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. Not sure where you think Megathrons come from. When an Erebus and a Nyx love each other very much ... Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:02:00 -
[528] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. Station egg's & iHubs come to mind. This is the only time my freighter has ever been close to full, and that is me avoiding as much Hi sec as I can. I take it you've never had cause to move capital parts or IHUB upgrades, then. Industry V Upgrade requires a freighter. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:13:00 -
[529] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. Not sure where you think Megathrons come from. Next you'll tell me that it takes 20 JF trips to have all the trit for a Titan instead of a single trip. Sounds to me like we need bigger cargo holds.
Dave Stark wrote:But Mallak, you can't be suggesting that there's a more efficient way of transporting minerals than just dumping them all in the back of a freighter, surely!? No, there isn't. And that's a problem.
Please see my thread on Super Freighters. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:17:00 -
[530] - Quote
No changes to freighter will save it if you are caught in Null. You have either secured the system for 10 minutes or you don't undock it.
If I was to give an unbiased opinion on freighters in EVE it would be, if you aren't moving Sov structures or capital parts you don't need a freighter. They are just there to lure you in to bad habits. |
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:20:00 -
[531] - Quote
Skydell wrote:No changes to freighter will save it if you are caught in Null. You have either secured the system for 10 minutes or you don't undock it.
If I was to give an unbiased opinion on freighters in EVE it would be, if you aren't moving Sov structures or capital parts you don't need a freighter. They are just there to lure you in to bad habits. No one in anyplace but null uses Freighters to move a bunch of ships for a deployment, right? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:21:00 -
[532] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling. If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing. You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect. I have never been a fan of "buff this, nerf that." How about people adapt their gameplay instead? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:25:00 -
[533] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling. If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing. You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect. Pointless. Need more dps? Bring more people. Has more EHP? Bring more people. Harder to bump? Machariel. The reasonable thing to do is analyzing the situation and determining what the problem is. As usual, it's there where most people don't look for it. In the mirror. Nobody ever seems to notice that every single day they blame other things for their own failures. The saddest about this is that people call it human nature, just so they can keep going with jt. If it were not for a lack of introspection, then we would not have very much content on the forums. A great many people come to the forums with ideas or looking for help, when they could have analyzed themselves for the answer in many cases. This is not something that really bothers me, and I am probably guilty of it as well. It is how we learn. Even though a great many threads devolve into shouting matches between people who are not interested in seeing the other side's perspective, there is always hope that someone will learn something from the encounter. Maybe the folks involved in the argument will not gain anything from itGÇöand in fact that is pretty likelyGÇöbut I know I have learned quite a lot from watching other people do things, talk about things, and debate how something should be or how it could be better. That's my hope whenever I see a thread like this: that in between the vitriol and the name-calling there will be something worth reading and that I, and others, will come away fro the thread having learned something. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:33:00 -
[534] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station. The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with. So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game? You best be trolling. If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing. You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect. Their original design purpose, to hold very large things or lots of small things has not been invalidated. Nor has the design purpose of destroyers to destroy things been invalidated, as evidenced by this thread. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11855
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:35:00 -
[535] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:One destroyer cannot kill a freighter in hi sec unless you are at war or it otherwise legal combat it requires coordination of multiple assets which means there is profit to be made doing it The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation. What makes a given DPS value stupid or not?
Quote:Quote:A frigate with double webs will help you get into warp that much faster reducing the risk or bumping and if you warp to zero and jump immediately it is very hard to get caught on the gates repeat for each jump.
I fly freighters and this is the way I do things, I fly with a double web Daredevil piloted by a friend not an alt he double webs me to help me get into warp quicker, plus I don't fly with a cargo value so high that I am attractive to gankers.
But if for some reason I need to move lots of more expensive things I bring more friends to scout ahead, twin logi and a heavy fast battleship. While I won't fault you for your meticulous personal practices, I think high sec freighting is a boring enough activity already without requiring teamwork. If high sec freight is boring for you, then you are not required to do it. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4263
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:37:00 -
[536] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people. Not sure where you think Megathrons come from. When an Erebus and a Nyx love each other very much ... Then Boat. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11856
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 23:40:00 -
[537] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.
yes, you could nerf t1 destroyer dps. then you'd just bring less people in bigger ships, and you'd still be here crying that it was 15 brutix instead of 25 catalysts (numbers irrelevant, the point is the same). give freighters more ehp? see above. give freighters less cargo? wouldn't stop people filling it with billions of isk of officer/faction/deadspace modules and being moronic loot pinatas. make freighters less easy to bump? this has no real affect on killing a freighter or not, let's be honest. it just means people have to get their **** together faster that's all. none of your solutions actually solve a single thing, really. What he wants is to be able to autopilot his freighter with impunity because it is high sec, which ought to be safe.
That is the beginning and end of his arguments. As you point out, no specific changes short of making it impossible to fire offensive modules at another player in high sec would actually fix the problem he has (dying to other players in highsec). As you rightly point out, adjusting anything about the freighter to make them harder to kill would just result in bigger gangs being used to kill them. Following from the OP's complaint about someone using 15 ISBoxer accounts to kill his freighter, it would just become more or bigger ships doing itGÇöand at the end of the day, it could still just be one person, or any number of people, and none of that would matter because the loot pi+¦ata would still be dead.
Don't stuff your cargo hold to the point of being a lucrative target. It's that simple. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11856
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:00:00 -
[538] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? Its main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended. Then what do Titans do? Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3577
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:04:00 -
[539] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Skydell wrote:Dave Stark wrote:please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name. Troll away, troll boy. Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right. you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that. except; you're not right. So you keep saying and yet I know better. And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect.
An out of corp fleet member will get concorded for webbing you, this is a game mechanic. A person in the same corp as you will not get a suspect timer, this is a game mechanic. The corp member will get a 60 second weapons timer, which isn't an issue because it will have run out well before the freighter is at the end of it's decloak timer. These are game mechanics, something that you & a few others in this thread seem to know nothing about.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Ragnen Delent
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:04:00 -
[540] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? Its main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended. Then what do Titans do?
Act as incredibly expensive coffins, of course. |
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11870
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 00:11:00 -
[541] - Quote
Ragnen Delent wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? Its main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended. Then what do Titans do? Act as incredibly expensive coffins, of course. That's not really evident in their name. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 01:40:00 -
[542] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Best part is that I never said those words. I gave numbers on what someone with a personal fleet made shooting NPCs
Sorry, I guess I gave you the benefit of the doubt since your figure was pretty close to reality. If you were trying to say that Freighter gankers make < 2.5b/hr, I guess we can work with that too. I think perhaps you should have stuck with mine for the sake of your argument though? |
Arya Regnar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:04:00 -
[543] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. 3 times ehp? Maybe If you fit estamels invulns t2 rigs bulkheads and dcu. Stop blowing things out of proportions, orca also can't haul 900000 m3
More cargo should not equal more ehp. If you move valuable cargo do it in a bloody damnation instead of crying about how your poor freighter got ganked.
--Edit-- Carebear tears sure filled up 28 pages quickly.
What a threadnaught!
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7756
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:29:00 -
[544] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Best part is that I never said those words. I gave numbers on what someone with a personal fleet made shooting NPCs Sorry, I guess I gave you the benefit of the doubt since your figure was pretty close to reality. If you were trying to say that Freighter gankers make < 2.5b/hr, I guess we can work with that too. I think perhaps you should have stuck with mine for the sake of your argument though?
Your numbers are wrong so no I wouldn't have gone with yours. The average freighter ganker will make less than running level 4 missions and nowhere near 2 billion an hour. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
176
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:45:00 -
[545] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. 3 times ehp? Maybe If you fit estamels invulns t2 rigs bulkheads and dcu. Stop blowing things out of proportions, orca also can't haul 900000 m3 More cargo should not equal more ehp. If you move valuable cargo do it in a bloody damnation instead of crying about how your poor freighter got ganked. --Edit-- Carebear tears sure filled up 28 pages quickly. What a threadnaught!
I was able to force an Orca up to 319k EHP with officer mods and a pile of implants. A Charon has 180k EHP. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12896
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:50:00 -
[546] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? Its main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended. Then what do Titans do? Prevent some people from breeding, much like the condom carrying the same name
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:52:00 -
[547] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Your numbers are wrong so no I wouldn't have gone with yours. The average freighter ganker will make less than running level 4 missions and nowhere near 2 billion an hour.
Certainly, but 60b/24hr is the only bound you've given me. If you want to use a tighter bound you'll have to provide it.
Or is your only contention that Freighter ganking is fine because it's less isk/hr than ISBoxing carriers in blue doughnut space? Seems like a skewed comparison. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7756
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 05:57:00 -
[548] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Your numbers are wrong so no I wouldn't have gone with yours. The average freighter ganker will make less than running level 4 missions and nowhere near 2 billion an hour. Certainly, but 60b/24hr is the only bound you've given me. If you want to use a tighter bound you'll have to provide it. Or is your only contention that Freighter ganking is fine because it's less isk/hr than ISBoxing carriers in blue doughnut space? Seems like a skewed comparison.
He used ishtars.
I have yet to see anyone post any evidence that shows freighter ganking is out of control. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:05:00 -
[549] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:He used ishtars.
*shrug A filthy drone boat is a filthy drone boat.
Quote:I have yet to see anyone post any evidence that shows freighter ganking is out of control.
Barge ganking wasn't particularly out of control before the revamp either. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7756
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:14:00 -
[550] - Quote
Quote:
Barge ganking wasn't particularly out of control before the revamp either.
And CCP have admitted they got that one wrong. There is still no evidence pointing towards a problem with freighters. |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 06:39:00 -
[551] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Barge ganking wasn't particularly out of control before the revamp either.
And CCP have admitted they got that one wrong.
[citation needed]
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7757
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:04:00 -
[552] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Barge ganking wasn't particularly out of control before the revamp either.
And CCP have admitted they got that one wrong. [citation needed]
He has said it multiple times both in threads dotted around and in person.
CCP knows they got it wrong and will be rebalancing barges and exhumers along with EA frigates. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12896
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:14:00 -
[553] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: He has said it multiple times both in threads dotted around and in person.
CCP knows they got it wrong and will be rebalancing barges and exhumers along with EA frigates.
You're going to have to provide a quote to satisfy the pedant, and even then he'll tell you that black is white.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7757
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:22:00 -
[554] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote: He has said it multiple times both in threads dotted around and in person.
CCP knows they got it wrong and will be rebalancing barges and exhumers along with EA frigates.
You're going to have to provide a quote to satisfy the pedant, and even then he'll tell you that black is white.
He'll have to wait then because this phone doesn't do quotes too well , I can however make my ? Go -+. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12896
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:34:00 -
[555] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I can however make my ? Go -+. I'm officially jelly
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7757
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 07:38:00 -
[556] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote:I can however make my ? Go -+. I'm officially jelly
GÖÑ |
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:05:00 -
[557] - Quote
Skydell wrote:- Can't remote repair a freighter. Hull tank and end of cycle repairs nullify it yes you can, there's nothing that stops you using remote reps on a freighter.
comments like this are hilarious and illustrate why nobody takes you seriously. |
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:14:00 -
[558] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote: He has said it multiple times both in threads dotted around and in person.
CCP knows they got it wrong and will be rebalancing barges and exhumers along with EA frigates.
You're going to have to provide a quote to satisfy the pedant, and even then he'll tell you that black is white. He'll have to wait then because this phone doesn't do quotes too well , I can however make my ? Go -+.
This is Fred; +¦-++¦
Fred says hi. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:56:00 -
[559] - Quote
My comments in this thread have nothing to do with crying about losing ships. I have never lost a freighter, and never owned one nor will I.
My comments are about an imbalanced system. A system in which players have found a way to negate the controls put in place in highsec, in which for a 2 million isk per pilot investment you can destroy a multi-billion isk investment of a person who is playing within the designed mechanics of the game, without any warning.
I am saying that when freighters were released, it required a 100 million + isk per pilot investment, but things have changed drastically and now only requires 5000% less to be invested.
That's a huge drop and an obvious imbalance. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12901
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 08:59:00 -
[560] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:My comments in this thread have nothing to do with crying about losing ships. I have never lost a freighter, and never owned one nor will I.
My comments are about an imbalanced system. A system in which players have found a way to negate the controls put in place in highsec, in which for a 2 million isk per pilot investment you can destroy a multi-billion isk investment of a person who is playing within the designed mechanics of the game, without any warning.
I am saying that when freighters were released, it required a 100 million + isk per pilot investment, but things have changed drastically and now only requires 5000% less to be invested.
That's a huge drop and an obvious imbalance.
Assuming your figure of 100 million per pilot is correct, which given your past posting is unlikely, 2 million isk is 2% of 100 million isk, ie a 98% drop in cost per pilot.
How does that work out to 5000%? Or are you just talking out of your arse again?
In before figurative, metaphorical, arbitrary and any other words that don't describe your bullshit.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:01:00 -
[561] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:My comments in this thread have nothing to do with crying about losing ships. I have never lost a freighter, and never owned one nor will I.
My comments are about an imbalanced system. A system in which players have found a way to negate the controls put in place in highsec, in which for a 2 million isk per pilot investment you can destroy a multi-billion isk investment of a person who is playing within the designed mechanics of the game, without any warning.
I am saying that when freighters were released, it required a 100 million + isk per pilot investment, but things have changed drastically and now only requires 5000% less to be invested.
That's a huge drop and an obvious imbalance.
you've always been able to kill a freighter in 2m isk ships ever since the dawn of time; if you had enough people to throw at a freighter.
nothing has changed. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:04:00 -
[562] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:My comments in this thread have nothing to do with crying about losing ships. I have never lost a freighter, and never owned one nor will I.
My comments are about an imbalanced system. A system in which players have found a way to negate the controls put in place in highsec, in which for a 2 million isk per pilot investment you can destroy a multi-billion isk investment of a person who is playing within the designed mechanics of the game, without any warning.
I am saying that when freighters were released, it required a 100 million + isk per pilot investment, but things have changed drastically and now only requires 5000% less to be invested.
That's a huge drop and an obvious imbalance. 2 million isk is 2% of 100 million isk, ie a 98% drop in cost per pilot. How does that work out to 5000%? Or are you just talking out of your arse again? In before figurative, metaphorical, arbitrary and any other words that don't describe your bullshit. Are you serious? How many 2's into 100? 50 right. For each 2 you have 100%. 50 x 100 = 5000.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:10:00 -
[563] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:My comments in this thread have nothing to do with crying about losing ships. I have never lost a freighter, and never owned one nor will I.
My comments are about an imbalanced system. A system in which players have found a way to negate the controls put in place in highsec, in which for a 2 million isk per pilot investment you can destroy a multi-billion isk investment of a person who is playing within the designed mechanics of the game, without any warning.
I am saying that when freighters were released, it required a 100 million + isk per pilot investment, but things have changed drastically and now only requires 5000% less to be invested.
That's a huge drop and an obvious imbalance. you've always been able to kill a freighter in 2m isk ships ever since the dawn of time; if you had enough people to throw at a freighter. nothing has changed. *shakes head*
|
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:13:00 -
[564] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:My comments in this thread have nothing to do with crying about losing ships. I have never lost a freighter, and never owned one nor will I.
My comments are about an imbalanced system. A system in which players have found a way to negate the controls put in place in highsec, in which for a 2 million isk per pilot investment you can destroy a multi-billion isk investment of a person who is playing within the designed mechanics of the game, without any warning.
I am saying that when freighters were released, it required a 100 million + isk per pilot investment, but things have changed drastically and now only requires 5000% less to be invested.
That's a huge drop and an obvious imbalance. you've always been able to kill a freighter in 2m isk ships ever since the dawn of time; if you had enough people to throw at a freighter. nothing has changed. *shakes head*
so tell me, when freighters were introduced which game mechanic stopped you dropping the required amount of 2m isk ships on a freighter? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:15:00 -
[565] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:My comments in this thread have nothing to do with crying about losing ships. I have never lost a freighter, and never owned one nor will I.
My comments are about an imbalanced system. A system in which players have found a way to negate the controls put in place in highsec, in which for a 2 million isk per pilot investment you can destroy a multi-billion isk investment of a person who is playing within the designed mechanics of the game, without any warning.
I am saying that when freighters were released, it required a 100 million + isk per pilot investment, but things have changed drastically and now only requires 5000% less to be invested.
That's a huge drop and an obvious imbalance. you've always been able to kill a freighter in 2m isk ships ever since the dawn of time; if you had enough people to throw at a freighter. nothing has changed. *shakes head* so tell me, when freighters were introduced which game mechanic stopped you dropping the required amount of 2m isk ships on a freighter? Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
|
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:17:00 -
[566] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:25:00 -
[567] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? LMFAO.
|
Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:25:00 -
[568] - Quote
What would be the issue with giving freighters some fitting ability (obviously tweak basic HP, cargo etc)? That way people can sacrifice cargo for tank etc. If people want a super tanky freighter let them fit that way and get half the cargo space. |
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:26:00 -
[569] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? LMFAO.
judging from the fact that you didn't reply with an actual answer; i'm correct. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12906
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:26:00 -
[570] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Are you serious? How many 2's into 100? 50 right. For each 2 you have 100%. 50 x 100 = 5000.
You do know how percentages work right? 1 is 1% of 100, ergo 2 is 2% of 100
Using your figures :
1,000,000 is 1% of 100,000,000, ergo 2,000,000 is 2% of 100,000,000
100-2=98 therefore it's a 98% reduction in the cost per pilot required to gank a freighter
per-+cent also per cent (pr-snt) adv. Out of each hundred; per hundred.
If I buy something for -ú2 and sell it for -ú100 I haven't made a 5000% profit, I've made an 98% profit.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:30:00 -
[571] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Are you serious? How many 2's into 100? 50 right. For each 2 you have 100%. 50 x 100 = 5000.
You do know how percentages work right? 1 is 1% of 100, ergo 2 is 2% of 100 Using your figures : 1,000,000 is 1% of 100,000,000, ergo 2,000,000 is 2% of 100,000,000 100-2=98 therefore it's a 98% reduction in the cost per pilot required to gank a freighter per-+cent also per cent (pr-snt) adv. Out of each hundred; per hundred. If I buy something for -ú2 and sell it for -ú100 I haven't made a 5000% profit, I've made an 98% profit. You're freaking kidding me right? If you buy something for 2 and you sell it for 4 its 100%.
|
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:31:00 -
[572] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If I buy something for -ú2 and sell it for -ú100 I haven't made a 5000% profit
you've made 4900% profit, you sold it for 5000% of it's original cost. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12906
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:32:00 -
[573] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Are you serious? How many 2's into 100? 50 right. For each 2 you have 100%. 50 x 100 = 5000.
You do know how percentages work right? 1 is 1% of 100, ergo 2 is 2% of 100 Using your figures : 1,000,000 is 1% of 100,000,000, ergo 2,000,000 is 2% of 100,000,000 100-2=98 therefore it's a 98% reduction in the cost per pilot required to gank a freighter per-+cent also per cent (pr-snt) adv. Out of each hundred; per hundred. If I buy something for -ú2 and sell it for -ú100 I haven't made a 5000% profit, I've made an 98% profit. You're freaking kidding me right? If you buy something for 2 and you sell it for 4 its 100%. No it's not, it's a 50% profit, you're neglecting to take into account your cost price.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:34:00 -
[574] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Are you serious? How many 2's into 100? 50 right. For each 2 you have 100%. 50 x 100 = 5000.
You do know how percentages work right? 1 is 1% of 100, ergo 2 is 2% of 100 Using your figures : 1,000,000 is 1% of 100,000,000, ergo 2,000,000 is 2% of 100,000,000 100-2=98 therefore it's a 98% reduction in the cost per pilot required to gank a freighter per-+cent also per cent (pr-snt) adv. Out of each hundred; per hundred. If I buy something for -ú2 and sell it for -ú100 I haven't made a 5000% profit, I've made an 98% profit. You're freaking kidding me right? If you buy something for 2 and you sell it for 4 its 100%. No it's not, it's a 50% profit, you're neglecting to take into account your cost price. You got the cost price back + double or 100%... |
Dave Stark
3459
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:35:00 -
[575] - Quote
it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12906
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:37:00 -
[576] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. She's not, In my last job I spent 4 years doing profit margin calculations all day. For a 100% margin the cost price must be 0. Ziona is confusing Markup with Profit.
Cost = 2 Sell = 4 Markup =100% Margin =50%
Very different calculations.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7759
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:39:00 -
[577] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter?
For every low slot added they would have to remove 12% base cargo ( I think thats what a t2 cargo extender gives you) otherwise people could ship capitals into high sec.
I dont want my freighter nerfed in an attempt to fix stupid people. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:43:00 -
[578] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? For every low slot added they would have to remove 12% base cargo ( I think thats what a t2 cargo extender gives you) otherwise people could ship capitals into high sec. I dont want my freighter nerfed in an attempt to fix stupid people. No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
|
Dave Stark
3461
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:44:00 -
[579] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? For every low slot added they would have to remove 12% base cargo ( I think thats what a t2 cargo extender gives you) otherwise people could ship capitals into high sec. I dont want my freighter nerfed in an attempt to fix stupid people.
expanded cargohold, 1.275 modifier. 27.5%.
1/1.275 = 0.784... so a 21% reduction in cargo, per low slot. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:45:00 -
[580] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. She's not, In my last job I spent 4 years doing profit margin calculations all day. Ziona is confusing Markup with Profit Margin. Cost = 2 Sell = 4 Markup = 100% Margin = 50% Very different calculations. Maybe an indication why you don't have that job anymore.
|
|
Dave Stark
3462
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:45:00 -
[581] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. She's not, In my last job I spent 4 years doing profit margin calculations all day. Ziona is confusing Markup with Profit Margin. Cost = 2 Sell = 4 Markup = 100% Margin = 50% Very different calculations.
protip: we're working out percentage change not profit margins.
((new value - old value) / old value) *100 |
Dave Stark
3462
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:48:00 -
[582] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
why should ccp **** up all the code they have to fix.... erm, nothing? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12906
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:53:00 -
[583] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. She's not, In my last job I spent 4 years doing profit margin calculations all day. Ziona is confusing Markup with Profit Margin. Cost = 2 Sell = 4 Markup = 100% Margin = 50% Very different calculations. Maybe an indication why you don't have that job anymore. Actually I don't have the job anymore because the company no longer trades in the UK.
I was using margins to demonstrate that a reduction in cost from 100,000,000 to 2,000,000 is not a 5000% reduction in cost. A percentage is expressed as a part of 100. The clue is in the word percent; per (a part) and cent (100).
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:54:00 -
[584] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
why should ccp **** up all the code they have to fix.... erm, nothing?
Cause if-statements are super hard?
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:55:00 -
[585] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
why should ccp **** up all the code they have to fix.... erm, nothing? Yeah because they don't already have code like preventing assembled ships being put into holds, or customs checking, or gate locking (caps) or checks on assembling ships (T3's required modules are in order)... stop reaching out for desperate excuses
And before you say oh but they could transport packaged ships, they would only need to include packaged caps into that check as well.
|
Dave Stark
3462
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:56:00 -
[586] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. She's not, In my last job I spent 4 years doing profit margin calculations all day. Ziona is confusing Markup with Profit Margin. Cost = 2 Sell = 4 Markup = 100% Margin = 50% Very different calculations. Maybe an indication why you don't have that job anymore. Actually I don't have the job anymore because the company no longer trades in the UK. I was using margins to demonstrate that a reduction in cost from 100,000,000 to 2,000,000 is not a 5000% reduction in cost. A percentage is expressed as a part of 100. The clue is in the word percent; per (a part) and cent (100).
((100 - 2) / 100) *100
(98 / 100)*100
98
98% reduction in cost. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7759
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:57:00 -
[587] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? For every low slot added they would have to remove 12% base cargo ( I think thats what a t2 cargo extender gives you) otherwise people could ship capitals into high sec. I dont want my freighter nerfed in an attempt to fix stupid people. No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
This cash cow being 30 to 40 ganked freighters a month out of the estimated half a million to a million freighter trips a month. Where is this problem you are trying to fix again? |
Dave Stark
3463
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:57:00 -
[588] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
why should ccp **** up all the code they have to fix.... erm, nothing? Yeah because they don't already have code like preventing assembled ships being put into holds, or customs checking, or gate locking (caps) or checks on assembling ships (T3's required modules are in order)... stop reaching out for desperate excuses And before you say oh but they could transport packaged ships, they would only need to include packaged caps into that check as well.
again, not questioning the difficulty of coding. i'm questioning why they should bother to change things that don't need changing.
as said pages ago; you don't want your freighter ganked don't fill it with shiny stuff. CCP physically can not code the game to prevent mongoloids being mongoloids. even CCP aren't that good. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12914
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 09:58:00 -
[589] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: ((100 - 2) / 100) *100
(98 / 100)*100
98
98% reduction in cost.
Precisely the point I was arguing, you did it in a much more succinct fashion though. Zionas 5000% reduction in cost is bullshit.
Cheers Dave
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3463
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:00:00 -
[590] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote: ((100 - 2) / 100) *100
(98 / 100)*100
98
98% reduction in cost.
Precisely the point I was arguing, you did it in a much more succinct fashion though. Zionas 5000% reduction in cost is bullshit.
well yes, because anything past a 100% reduction in cost would result in a negative value. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12914
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:04:00 -
[591] - Quote
I should have clarified that I was talking about margins in my examples, rather than markup. A lot of people can't tell the difference between the two.
I shouldn't have used them as an example at all tbh, because of the confusion between the 2. A 5000% markup is possible, a 5000% margin is not.
My bad
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7760
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:07:00 -
[592] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote: ((100 - 2) / 100) *100
(98 / 100)*100
98
98% reduction in cost.
Precisely the point I was arguing, you did it in a much more succinct fashion though. Zionas 5000% reduction in cost is bullshit. well yes, because anything past a 100% reduction in cost would result in a negative value.
Back when freighters were added it was possible to insure a battleship and make a profit self destructing it. Add into that the fact that the concord response time was longer and you could gank a freighter for nothing or even at a profit even if nothing dropped. This whole aregument that its cheaper today it utter nonsense. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12916
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:08:00 -
[593] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
why should ccp **** up all the code they have to fix.... erm, nothing? Cause if-statements are super hard? If you're so sure about the ease of implementing such an IF statement into CCPs code, apply for a job and prove it.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3464
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:11:00 -
[594] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Back when freighters were added it was possible to insure a battleship and make a profit self destructing it. Add into that the fact that the concord response time was longer and you could gank a freighter for nothing or even at a profit even if nothing dropped. This whole aregument that its cheaper today it utter nonsense.
"but a catalyst is cheaper than a megathron guyz!" |
baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:24:00 -
[595] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Back when freighters were added it was possible to insure a battleship and make a profit self destructing it. Add into that the fact that the concord response time was longer and you could gank a freighter for nothing or even at a profit even if nothing dropped. This whole aregument that its cheaper today it utter nonsense. "but a catalyst is cheaper than a megathron guyz!"
Dem ibis be free yo. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12924
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:25:00 -
[596] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: "but a catalyst is cheaper than a megathron guyz!"
They'd still whine it was unfair if it required multiple Caps to kill a freighter...
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3464
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:26:00 -
[597] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote: "but a catalyst is cheaper than a megathron guyz!"
They'd still whine it was unfair if it required multiple Caps to kill a freighter... "caps in high sec? NERF!" |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:30:00 -
[598] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote: ((100 - 2) / 100) *100
(98 / 100)*100
98
98% reduction in cost.
Precisely the point I was arguing, you did it in a much more succinct fashion though. Zionas 5000% reduction in cost is bullshit. well yes, because anything past a 100% reduction in cost would result in a negative value. Back when freighters were added it was possible to insure a battleship and make a profit self destructing it. Add into that the fact that the concord response time was longer and you could gank a freighter for nothing or even at a profit even if nothing dropped. This whole aregument that its cheaper today it utter nonsense.
Zaxix wrote:Roughly speaking, the point of profit for gankers comes around 2 billion. But that's not much profit. However, nothing will stop a thrill kill gank, because profit isn't the object. Most of the time, gankers are in it for the money and they want to make the most they can for their investment plus the lost sec status.
BTW: It only takes about 10 to 12 BS to pop a freighter. If you'd like to watch gankers in action, hang out in Niarja, Uedama, or the adjacent systems. If you fly regularly through those systems, I advise you do it ATK (at-the-keyboard) and not on autopilot, esp. if you go over the 1 billion isk cargo limit. If you go over 2 billion, you are taking a major risk. Freighter pilots looking to move that kind of expensive load should hire escorts, the serious, professional kind. Cause those pirates are very organized. Link - Zaxix - Red Frog Freight
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12924
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:33:00 -
[599] - Quote
I'm going to butcher JFK here.
not JFK wrote:Don't ask what you can do for yourself, ask CCP to do it for you.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:36:00 -
[600] - Quote
Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. |
|
Dave Stark
3464
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:40:00 -
[601] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
and you could back then, too. what's your point?
also, if you get enough noob ships it is free. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12925
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:42:00 -
[602] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Zaxix wrote:Roughly speaking, the point of profit for gankers comes around 2 billion. But that's not much profit. However, nothing will stop a thrill kill gank, because profit isn't the object. Most of the time, gankers are in it for the money and they want to make the most they can for their investment plus the lost sec status.
BTW: It only takes about 10 to 12 BS to pop a freighter. If you'd like to watch gankers in action, hang out in Niarja, Uedama, or the adjacent systems. If you fly regularly through those systems, I advise you do it ATK (at-the-keyboard) and not on autopilot, esp. if you go over the 1 billion isk cargo limit. If you go over 2 billion, you are taking a major risk. Freighter pilots looking to move that kind of expensive load should hire escorts, the serious, professional kind. Cause those pirates are very organized. Link - Zaxix - Red Frog FreightNow, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free All the while completely ignoring the fact that a T1 BS was basically free, when you take into account the insurance payout, and an alt scooping up the drops from the Concorded ships.
The real cost, after insurance and loot from your own ships is probably not far off the same as it is now.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:43:00 -
[603] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. According to the link I posted, it required at least 12, reading further, it used to require 20ish. Now you can do it with 29 x 2 million, that's 58 million isk. You make that back on salvage even if the loot fairy doesn't pay you billions.
You're full of it Baltec, not fooling anyone.
And insurance didn't pay out more than the ship cost, a lot less than it cost and not mods. It was a large loss. |
Dave Stark
3464
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:51:00 -
[604] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. According to the link I posted, it required at least 12, reading further, it used to require 20ish. Now you can do it with 29 x 2 million, that's 58 million isk. You make that back on salvage even if the loot fairy doesn't pay you billions. You're full of it Baltec, not fooling anyone. And insurance didn't pay out more than the ship cost, a lot less than it cost and not mods. It was a large loss.
if it takes 29 players to kill a freighter then i think we need to nerf freighter EHP, a lot. that's really not balanced. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12925
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:53:00 -
[605] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. According to the link I posted, it required at least 12, reading further, it used to require 20ish. Now you can do it with 29 x 2 million, that's 58 million isk. You make that back on salvage even if the loot fairy doesn't pay you billions. You're full of it Baltec, not fooling anyone. And insurance didn't pay out more than the ship cost, a lot less than it cost and not mods. It was a large loss. Are you somehow missing the fact that in 2009, when that post was made, a platinum insured ship that had been concorded resulted in a payout equivalent to 80% of the mineral value in the ship?
On top of that, any sensible suicide gank gang would have a neutral alt ready and waiting to scoop not only the cargo from the freighter, but also the module drops from the Concorded ships.
At a rough guestimate, pre insurance nerf, a suicide ganker could expect to see around 65-75% of their costs returned via insurance and their own module drops.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:53:00 -
[606] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. According to the link I posted, it required at least 12, reading further, it used to require 20ish. Now you can do it with 29 x 2 million, that's 58 million isk. You make that back on salvage even if the loot fairy doesn't pay you billions. You're full of it Baltec, not fooling anyone.
We are the people who invented industrialised ganking. Back then concord was much slower in responding and so we needed fewer ships. We also got our stockpiles of gankships when their price fell to the point where they could be insured and make a profit on their death. It was MUCH cheaper back then as these days even the cheapest gank will cost around 100 mil on a freighter.
If we go even further back we get to an age where concord could be tanked and you would find the likes of M0o burning entire systems. You have never been safer than today. |
Dave Stark
3464
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 10:58:00 -
[607] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You have never been safer than today.
"liar, i can't auto pilot with 50bn isk of officer mods in my cargo. ur full of it baltec!" |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:00:00 -
[608] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. According to the link I posted, it required at least 12, reading further, it used to require 20ish. Now you can do it with 29 x 2 million, that's 58 million isk. You make that back on salvage even if the loot fairy doesn't pay you billions. You're full of it Baltec, not fooling anyone. We are the people who invented industrialised ganking. Back then concord was much slower in responding and so we needed fewer ships. We also got our stockpiles of gankships when their price fell to the point where they could be insured and make a profit on their death. It was MUCH cheaper back then as these days even the cheapest gank will cost around 100 mil on a freighter. If we go even further back we get to an age where concord could be tanked and you would find the likes of M0o burning entire systems. You have never been safer than today. Really so all those posts I read from "back then" were all lying, even though they all agreed with each other... I don't think so. The red frog guy saying it required at least 12 battleships and was barely profitable at 2 billion in the hold dropping was lying.
Everyone was lying but you, someone who has a vested interest in ganking freighters continuing, are telling the truth ... I see
|
Dave Stark
3464
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:07:00 -
[609] - Quote
pro tip: lots of people agreeing on something doesn't make them right.
eg, the earth being flat, or the sun revolving around the earth, etc. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:08:00 -
[610] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. According to the link I posted, it required at least 12, reading further, it used to require 20ish. Now you can do it with 29 x 2 million, that's 58 million isk. You make that back on salvage even if the loot fairy doesn't pay you billions. You're full of it Baltec, not fooling anyone. We are the people who invented industrialised ganking. Back then concord was much slower in responding and so we needed fewer ships. We also got our stockpiles of gankships when their price fell to the point where they could be insured and make a profit on their death. It was MUCH cheaper back then as these days even the cheapest gank will cost around 100 mil on a freighter. If we go even further back we get to an age where concord could be tanked and you would find the likes of M0o burning entire systems. You have never been safer than today. Really so all those posts I read from "back then" were all lying, even though they all agreed with each other... I don't think so. The red frog guy saying it required at least 12 battleships and was barely profitable at 2 billion in the hold dropping was lying. Everyone was lying but you, someone who has a vested interest in ganking freighters continuing, are telling the truth ... I see
Freighters were added in 2005. Your info is not correct because it is not from back then. I dont thik it is even from the right forum. |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:15:00 -
[611] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Now, you can do it for 2 milliion per pilot... pretty much free
Concord used to PAY US to gank things and we only needed 6 to 10 battleships to do it. It is now around 100 million and requires 20+ pilots. According to the link I posted, it required at least 12, reading further, it used to require 20ish. Now you can do it with 29 x 2 million, that's 58 million isk. You make that back on salvage even if the loot fairy doesn't pay you billions. You're full of it Baltec, not fooling anyone. And insurance didn't pay out more than the ship cost, a lot less than it cost and not mods. It was a large loss. Are you somehow missing the fact that in 2009, when that post was made, a platinum insured ship that had been concorded resulted in a payout equivalent to 80% of the mineral value required to build the ship? On top of that, any sensible suicide gank gang would have a neutral alt ready and waiting to scoop not only the cargo from the freighter, but also the module drops from the Concorded ships. At a rough guestimate, pre insurance nerf, a suicide ganker could expect to see around 65-75% of their costs returned via insurance and their own module drops. With regards to the cost of Catalysts, 2 million isk buys you a basic T1 fit cat with mediocre DPS. James 315 reimburses his agents Catalysts at the following rates.
- Tech I -- 2 million
- Named/Meta -- 4 million
- Tech II -- 15 million
Plat paid out around 20 million less than the ship x 12 = 240 million. A basic fit would cost around 10 million, assuming 50% dropped that's another 60 million. Plat insurance I think was around 40 million that's another 480 million. So that's 780 million lost from one gank.
Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12934
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:22:00 -
[612] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
Except they didn't get an insurance payout, not even the base payout for an uninsured ship. There is zero payout for any ship destroyed by Concord.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:26:00 -
[613] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
Except they didn't and wouldn't get an insurance payout, not even the base payout for an uninsured ship. There is zero payout for any ship destroyed by Concord.
Also that talos is at least 80 mil just for the hull. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:41:00 -
[614] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
Except they didn't and wouldn't get an insurance payout, not even the base payout for an uninsured ship. There is zero payout for any ship destroyed by Concord. Also that talos is at least 80 mil just for the hull. Except you could have used 5 extra cats for the same dps for 10 mill...
|
Dave Stark
3464
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:43:00 -
[615] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
Except they didn't and wouldn't get an insurance payout, not even the base payout for an uninsured ship. There is zero payout for any ship destroyed by Concord. Also that talos is at least 80 mil just for the hull. Except you could have used 5 extra cats for the same dps for 10 mill... so 780 million from 2009, to 70 million today.. unbalanced
5 catalysts isn't the equivalent of a talos.
also nothing stopped people using all catalysts back in 2009 stop pretending it did. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12938
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:47:00 -
[616] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
Except they didn't and wouldn't get an insurance payout, not even the base payout for an uninsured ship. There is zero payout for any ship destroyed by Concord. Also that talos is at least 80 mil just for the hull. Except you could have used 5 extra cats for the same dps for 10 mill... so 780 million from 2009, to 70 million today.. unbalanced Without a link to look at the Talos fit, I would say that the Talos was probably used to keep the freighter from aligning via bumping, a Catalyst is shite for bumping, especially for bumping a freighter.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7762
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:52:00 -
[617] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
Except they didn't and wouldn't get an insurance payout, not even the base payout for an uninsured ship. There is zero payout for any ship destroyed by Concord. Also that talos is at least 80 mil just for the hull. Except you could have used 5 extra cats for the same dps for 10 mill... so 780 million from 2009, to 70 million today.. unbalanced
Because destroyers were not around in 2009.
Also we would haveused six or so free battleships back in 2005. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:52:00 -
[618] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Bat Country has a kill on a Charon on Battleclinic made with 28 T1 fit cats, and 1 talos. That's about 90 million. If they insured and collected mods it'd be something like 20 million.
Except they didn't and wouldn't get an insurance payout, not even the base payout for an uninsured ship. There is zero payout for any ship destroyed by Concord. Also that talos is at least 80 mil just for the hull. Except you could have used 5 extra cats for the same dps for 10 mill... so 780 million from 2009, to 70 million today.. unbalanced 5 catalysts isn't the equivalent of a talos. also nothing stopped people using all catalysts back in 2009 stop pretending it did. 5 cats > dps than 1 Talos |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3580
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 11:59:00 -
[619] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? For every low slot added they would have to remove 12% base cargo ( I think thats what a t2 cargo extender gives you) otherwise people could ship capitals into high sec. I dont want my freighter nerfed in an attempt to fix stupid people. No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
Apparently 2m isk an hour is a cash cow that needs to be nerfed. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3470
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:00:00 -
[620] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
congratulations you're comparing a t1 fitted ship to a t2 fitted ship. would you now like to make an accurate comparison? if you can fit a t2 talos you can fit a t2 catalyst, so compare the respective fits. also your dps values are off for both ships anyway so i'm guessing you haven't got a clue what the hell you're talking about.
is it hard to use eft? note: that's also without any implants or such.
also, as we can see, not only are your dps values off, so are your isk values. *shrug* |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12939
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:04:00 -
[621] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
If you're only getting 300 DPS from a meta 0 fitted Catalyst, I feel bad for you.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7764
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:08:00 -
[622] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Same mechanic that stopped most freighters being ganked with the only reasonable force (battleships). Profitablity.
so, no game mechanic has ever stopped players dropping 2m isk ships on a freighter? For every low slot added they would have to remove 12% base cargo ( I think thats what a t2 cargo extender gives you) otherwise people could ship capitals into high sec. I dont want my freighter nerfed in an attempt to fix stupid people. No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow. Apparently 2m isk an hour is a cash cow that needs to be nerfed. Good day good sir. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3580
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:08:00 -
[623] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:5 cats > dps than 1 Talos
Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
A T2 Talos does 1650dps. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3580
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:10:00 -
[624] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Good day good sir.
Good day to you Goon Sir The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:10:00 -
[625] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
If you're only getting 300 DPS from a meta 0 fitted Catalyst, I feel bad for you. lol stop being wrong so much. That's a t1 nuetron blaster cat firing antimatter with all low slots filled with t1 magstabs lol with all level 5 skills. How do you suppose that be increased? Magic?
|
Dave Stark
3470
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:11:00 -
[626] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
If you're only getting 300 DPS from a meta 0 fitted Catalyst, I feel bad for you. lol stop being wrong so much. That's a t1 nuetron blaster cat firing antimatter with all low slots filled with t1 magstabs lol with all level 5 skills. How do you suppose that be increased? Magic?
let's play hangman.
_ _ _ _
hint: it's the answer to your question. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3580
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:12:00 -
[627] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
If you're only getting 300 DPS from a meta 0 fitted Catalyst, I feel bad for you. lol stop being wrong so much. That's a t1 nuetron blaster cat firing antimatter with all low slots filled with t1 magstabs lol with all level 5 skills. How do you suppose that be increased? Magic?
That's the dps of a Light Ion Blaster I catalyst with L4 supports, T1 magstabs & no implants using CN Antimatter. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:12:00 -
[628] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:5 cats > dps than 1 Talos
Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math. A T2 Talos does 1650dps. 5 t1 fitted cats do 1500 dps and cost 10 million isk.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12939
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:14:00 -
[629] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
If you're only getting 300 DPS from a meta 0 fitted Catalyst, I feel bad for you. lol stop being wrong so much. That's a t1 nuetron blaster cat firing antimatter with all low slots filled with t1 magstabs lol with all level 5 skills. How do you suppose that be increased? Magic? [Catalyst, meta gank]
8x Light Neutron Blaster I (Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S)
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
3x Linear Flux Stabilizer I
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
With my gank alts skills (which aren't all V) 354.5 DPS before overheat 407.6 with overheat. Learn to gank, and learn to fit.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3580
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:14:00 -
[630] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:5 cats > dps than 1 Talos
Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math. A T2 Talos does 1650dps. 5 t1 fitted cats do 1500 dps and cost 10 million isk.
The Talos was there because we most likely didn't have enough people logging in to down the freighter. Sometimes you're forced to use bigger & more expensive ships to make up for a lack of people. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Dave Stark
3470
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:14:00 -
[631] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:5 cats > dps than 1 Talos
Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math. A T2 Talos does 1650dps. 5 t1 fitted cats do 1500 dps and cost 10 million isk.
once again, you're wrong. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:21:00 -
[632] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
If you're only getting 300 DPS from a meta 0 fitted Catalyst, I feel bad for you. lol stop being wrong so much. That's a t1 nuetron blaster cat firing antimatter with all low slots filled with t1 magstabs lol with all level 5 skills. How do you suppose that be increased? Magic? [Catalyst, meta gank] 8x Light Neutron Blaster I (Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S) Experimental 1MN Afterburner I Sensor Booster 1 (Scan Resolution Script) 3x Linear Flux Stabilizer I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I With my gank alts skills (which aren't all V) 354.5 DPS before overheat 407.6 with overheat. Learn to gank, and learn to fit. Even replacing the meta 2 Magstabs with meta 0's it still pushes > 360 DPS overheated. T1.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12939
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:23:00 -
[633] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math.
If you're only getting 300 DPS from a meta 0 fitted Catalyst, I feel bad for you. lol stop being wrong so much. That's a t1 nuetron blaster cat firing antimatter with all low slots filled with t1 magstabs lol with all level 5 skills. How do you suppose that be increased? Magic? [Catalyst, meta gank] 8x Light Neutron Blaster I (Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S) Experimental 1MN Afterburner I Sensor Booster 1 (Scan Resolution Script) 3x Linear Flux Stabilizer I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I With my gank alts skills (which aren't all V) 354.5 DPS before overheat 407.6 with overheat. Learn to gank, and learn to fit. Even replacing the meta 2 Magstabs with meta 0's it still pushes > 360 DPS overheated. T1.
How is that not T1? Do you see any T2 modules fitted?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3471
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:24:00 -
[634] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:How is that not T1? Do you see any T2 modules fitted?
did you really expect anything less from them? really? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:27:00 -
[635] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:5 cats > dps than 1 Talos
Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math. A T2 Talos does 1650dps. 5 t1 fitted cats do 1500 dps and cost 10 million isk. The Talos was there because we most likely didn't have enough people logging in to down the freighter. Sometimes you're forced to use bigger & more expensive ships to make up for a lack of people. Anyway, we've already been over how cost is not a balancing factor. And we proved that it is a balancing factor when it comes to ganking. If its too expansive to use to gank, people won't use it to gank. When 5 catalysts cost 10 million and put out the dps of a attack battlecruiser for 8 times less the cost of the hull, that doesn't encourage ganking. Of course it does.
Increasing EHP on a freighter to 10 million EHP (example only, not a suggestion) won't reduce the numbers of freighters being ganked? Of course it will. Reducing freighter EHP to 10k EHP (just another example) won't increase the number of freighters being ganked. Of course it will. It would also reduce the number of freighters being used.
Thats all part of balance in an MMO.
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3582
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:27:00 -
[636] - Quote
T1 modules are not T1 modules ~A guy who stopped playing for 3 years & decided everything was wrong when he returned. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3582
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:30:00 -
[637] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:5 cats > dps than 1 Talos
Edit: Before you argue with me 1 t1 fitted cat = 300 dps. 1 T2 fitted Talos is 1000dps. I'll let you do the rest of the math. A T2 Talos does 1650dps. 5 t1 fitted cats do 1500 dps and cost 10 million isk. The Talos was there because we most likely didn't have enough people logging in to down the freighter. Sometimes you're forced to use bigger & more expensive ships to make up for a lack of people. Anyway, we've already been over how cost is not a balancing factor. And we proved that it is a balancing factor when it comes to ganking. If its too expansive to use to gank, people won't use it to gank. When 5 catalysts cost 10 million and put out the dps of a attack battlecruiser for 8 times less the cost of the hull, that doesn't encourage ganking. Of course it does. Increasing EHP on a freighter to 10 million EHP (example only, not a suggestion) won't reduce the numbers of freighters being ganked? Of course it will. Reducing freighter EHP to 10k EHP (just another example) won't increase the number of freighters being ganked. Of course it will. It would also reduce the number of freighters being used. Thats all part of balance in an MMO.
If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3475
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:30:00 -
[638] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: And we proved that it is a balancing factor when it comes to ganking. If its too expansive to use to gank, people won't use it to gank. When 5 catalysts cost 10 million and put out the dps of a attack battlecruiser for 8 times less the cost of the hull, that doesn't encourage ganking. Of course it does.
Increasing EHP on a freighter to 10 million EHP (example only, not a suggestion) won't reduce the numbers of freighters being ganked? Of course it will. Reducing freighter EHP to 10k EHP (just another example) won't increase the number of freighters being ganked. Of course it will. It would also reduce the number of freighters being used.
Thats all part of balance in an MMO.
no, cost has never been a balancing factor. stop pretending it is.
the expense involved in a gank is irrelevant; as we've all pointed out repeatedly. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3582
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:34:00 -
[639] - Quote
If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12943
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:37:00 -
[640] - Quote
So Infinity Ziona, are you going to enlighten us as to how a Catalyst fitted with purely T1 modules isn't a T1 fitted Catalyst? Or are you going to avoid it, because once again you have proven yourself to be a completely clueless numpty?
Enquiring minds want to know
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:40:00 -
[641] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:So Infinity Ziona, are you going to enlighten us as to how a Catalyst fitted with purely T1 modules isn't a T1 fitted Catalyst? Or are you going to avoid it, because once again you have proven yourself to be a completely clueless numpty? Enquiring minds want to know Magnetic Field Stabilizer I = pure T1, no meta. And what they were using on the Charon. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:42:00 -
[642] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3582
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:42:00 -
[643] - Quote
Also I want to see an answer to this question that no anti-freighter ganking zealot has answered yet.
Mallak Azaria wrote:If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it?
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3582
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:43:00 -
[644] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS.
A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3475
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:44:00 -
[645] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS.
since when was isk a module that required a slot? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12943
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:45:00 -
[646] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:So Infinity Ziona, are you going to enlighten us as to how a Catalyst fitted with purely T1 modules isn't a T1 fitted Catalyst? Or are you going to avoid it, because once again you have proven yourself to be a completely clueless numpty? Enquiring minds want to know Magnetic Field Stabilizer I = pure T1, no meta. And what they were using on the Charon.
Ok, now read my post again, with meta 0 magstabs the DPS is still > 360 with overheat, without implants. Overheating is used by most suicide gankers.
FYI meta 0 to meta 4 is T1, faction ammo is also T1 (if it wasn't, you couldn't use it in T1 guns) before you even start on that.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3475
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:45:00 -
[647] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design.
if you're using vindicators then it will cost over 1bn isk to gank it, so i guess it's balanced? |
Dave Stark
3475
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:47:00 -
[648] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:So Infinity Ziona, are you going to enlighten us as to how a Catalyst fitted with purely T1 modules isn't a T1 fitted Catalyst? Or are you going to avoid it, because once again you have proven yourself to be a completely clueless numpty? Enquiring minds want to know Magnetic Field Stabilizer I = pure T1, no meta. And what they were using on the Charon. Ok, now read my post again, with meta 0 magstabs the DPS is still > 360 with overheat, without implants. Overheating is used by most suicide gankers. FYI meta 0 to meta 4 is T1, faction ammo is also T1 (if it wasn't, you couldn't use it in T1 guns) before you even start on that.
meta 0 gets over 400 dps, easily. see?
also, quick maths that should be somewhat accurate.
400 dps, 20 second concord response time. 8k damage. 200k ehp on an obelisk.
200/8 = 25 catalysts with 0 margin of error.
it takes 25 players to kill a freighter. that's absurd and freighter ehp needs to be drastically reduced. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:49:00 -
[649] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design. By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.
|
Dave Stark
3475
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:53:00 -
[650] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.
i think you mistake "it took 1bn isk worth of ships" with "it cost 1bn isk worth of ships" |
|
Dave Stark
3475
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:56:00 -
[651] - Quote
consider the following, if it takes 25 catalysts to gank a freighter, what if the freighter had 24 t1 logi cruisers repping it?
a shitfit t1 logi cruiser with my skills would rep ~290hp/s on it. that's basically the same as a catalyst (apparently). that just shows; if you bring as many guys as they do your freighter won't be a sitting duck!
now imagine if they were properly skilled t2 logi cruisers. you'd actually outrep the dps i'm sure. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:59:00 -
[652] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.
When freighters came out we could gank them for free and with far fewer ships. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3583
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 12:59:00 -
[653] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design. By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.
They could still be ganked with cheap ships, people just didn't for whatever reason. It takes 14k DPS to kill a freighter in 0.5 with today's concord response times. It took even less in years gone by so you can't honestly sit there & babble on about 1b isk in battleships were the requirement to suicide gank a freighter in highsec.
If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:04:00 -
[654] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design. By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million. They could still be ganked with cheap ships, people just didn't for whatever reason. It takes 14k DPS to kill a freighter in 0.5 with today's concord response times. It took even less in years gone by so you can't honestly sit there & babble on about 1b isk in battleships were the requirement to suicide gank a freighter in highsec. If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.
|
Dave Stark
3475
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:06:00 -
[655] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:It took 20+ battleships when they were released.
i honestly need a source for this. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12945
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:08:00 -
[656] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:It took 20+ battleships when they were released. i honestly need a source for this.
But... but.. Infinity is infallible, at least in his/her own mind
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3584
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:10:00 -
[657] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.
It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec.
If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12945
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:10:00 -
[658] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:So Infinity Ziona, are you going to enlighten us as to how a Catalyst fitted with purely T1 modules isn't a T1 fitted Catalyst? Or are you going to avoid it, because once again you have proven yourself to be a completely clueless numpty? Enquiring minds want to know Magnetic Field Stabilizer I = pure T1, no meta. And what they were using on the Charon. How come the rest of us can push between 350 and 400 DPS out of a T1 fitted Catalyst, even when we gimp the fit with meta 0 magstabs, and you can't, is it possibly because you don't have a frigging clue?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3479
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:10:00 -
[659] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:It took 20+ battleships when they were released. i honestly need a source for this. But... but.. Infinity is infallible, at least in his/her own mind
that statement implies that battleships were doing similar dps to current catalysts... which i find very had to believe. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:16:00 -
[660] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design. By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.
And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?
When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.
You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.
I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12945
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:18:00 -
[661] - Quote
*waits for Mr Byerley Eaq. to turn up and post his clueless claptrap*
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12945
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:19:00 -
[662] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design. By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million. And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles? When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves. You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship. I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.
Welcome to the darkside, we have cookies and complimentary tear receptacles.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3584
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:21:00 -
[663] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.
Send me mail if you want to go ganking sometime. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:21:00 -
[664] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.
It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec. If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time.
It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable.
At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped.
Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that.
If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:22:00 -
[665] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg. I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS. A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design. By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million. And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles? When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves. You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship. I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker. You can do it for free. If it costs 70 million for you and your friends to blow one up. Considering salvage you should make a profit from it even if it drops nothing.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12945
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:23:00 -
[666] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time.
It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable.
At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped.
Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that.
If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.
You obviously do care, you're posting, badly might I add.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:24:00 -
[667] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.
It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec. If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time. It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable. At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped. Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that. If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.
I see the price to gank has dropped another 20 mil. |
Dave Stark
3479
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:25:00 -
[668] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.
It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec. If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time. It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable. At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped. Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that. If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.
it might be too cheap; but it's irrelevant since cost isn't a balancing factor. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:27:00 -
[669] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.
It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec. If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it? Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time. It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable. At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped. Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that. If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters. I see the price to gank has dropped another 20 mil. Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all. |
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death
118
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:27:00 -
[670] - Quote
isboxer bring 20 chars to blow single freighter. If freighter pilot is smart, he can bring just 5 logi alts and survive. I think it is fair enough. |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:29:00 -
[671] - Quote
Vizvig wrote:isboxer bring 20 chars to blow single freighter. If freighter pilot is smart, he can bring just 5 logi alts and survive. I think it is fair enough. Lol so to use a freighter, one has to pay for 6 accounts? that's fair? Does he need to get 6 computers too or should he invest in a mainframe...
|
Dave Stark
3479
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:33:00 -
[672] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Vizvig wrote:isboxer bring 20 chars to blow single freighter. If freighter pilot is smart, he can bring just 5 logi alts and survive. I think it is fair enough. Lol so to use a freighter, one has to pay for 6 accounts? that's fair? Does he need to get 6 computers too or should he invest in a mainframe...
and it's fair that a guy ganking a freighter needs 20 or more? |
baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:34:00 -
[673] - Quote
Quote:
Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.
Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons.
Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:37:00 -
[674] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.
Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons. Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots. So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12947
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:43:00 -
[675] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue.
I'm guessing a large stockpile of ships and/or a SRP, because that's how organised people work.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 13:43:00 -
[676] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.
Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons. Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots. So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue.
People used to buy up stacks of 50+ battleships, insure them and self destruct on the jita undock and made a good profit. We would simply loot our can after the gank and it broke even.
We effectivly could gank for free. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:01:00 -
[677] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:
And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?
When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.
You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.
I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.
You can do it for free. If it costs 70 million for you and your friends to blow one up. Considering salvage you should make a profit from it even if it drops nothing.
As stated earlier in this thread character is a freighter pilot I fly almost daily between Amarr, jita and some hisec-lowsec staging systems to keep a sov alliance industry running.
So why am I siding with the gankers? Because if flown with due precautions it is increadibly unlikely that a freighter will get ganked or if a gank squad starts to prep for an attack that you can stop or counter the attack and get the freighter out alive.
The freighters don't need to be changed there is nothing wrong with them, pilots need to change the way they fly them that is the problem here.
CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:02:00 -
[678] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.
Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons. Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots. So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue. People used to buy up stacks of 50+ battleships, insure them and self destruct on the jita undock and made a good profit. We would simply loot our can after the gank and it broke even. We effectivly could gank for free. Yeah I remember that. Insurance was borked but it was nerfed because it was broken. Same as this. You're effectively ganking for free again.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:04:00 -
[679] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:
And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?
When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.
You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.
I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.
You can do it for free. If it costs 70 million for you and your friends to blow one up. Considering salvage you should make a profit from it even if it drops nothing. As stated earlier in this thread character is a freighter pilot I fly almost daily between Amarr, jita and some hisec-lowsec staging systems to keep a sov alliance industry running. So why am I siding with the gankers? Because if flown with due precautions it is increadibly unlikely that a freighter will get ganked or if a gank squad starts to prep for an attack that you can stop or counter the attack and get the freighter out alive. The freighters don't need to be changed there is nothing wrong with them, pilots need to change the way they fly them that is the problem here. You realise if they want to kill you, there's no precaution you can take. Scout on the gate. Gank squad somewhere else. They'll bump you with a neutral BS til the squad arrives and you're dead. You've just been lucky. |
Nick Kumamoto
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:06:00 -
[680] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
LOL - if you for a second think they gank for profit you are probably wrong. Most of the time it is is for the "shiggles", the tears and the outright fun of just being able to do something "because I/we can". Call it emergent gameplay since what they are then creating is a market (and secondary) for freighters to built and sold.
Did you forget rule #1 of EVE? There is no such thing as safe space. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:09:00 -
[681] - Quote
Nick Kumamoto wrote:Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
LOL - if you for a second think they gank for profit you are probably wrong. Most of the time it is is for the "shiggles", the tears and the outright fun of just being able to do something "because I/we can". Call it emergent gameplay since what they are then creating is a market (and secondary) for freighters to built and sold. Did you forget rule #1 of EVE? There is no such thing as safe space.
We dont spend a trillion isk on ***** and giggles. Its all for profit. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:12:00 -
[682] - Quote
Quote: You realise if they want to kill you, there's no precaution you can take. Scout on the gate. Gank squad somewhere else. They'll bump you with a neutral BS til the squad arrives and you're dead. You've just been lucky.
You are more likely to be struck by lightning than have your freighter ganked. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:15:00 -
[683] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote: You realise if they want to kill you, there's no precaution you can take. Scout on the gate. Gank squad somewhere else. They'll bump you with a neutral BS til the squad arrives and you're dead. You've just been lucky.
You are more likely to be struck by lightning than have your freighter ganked. That's what he wants you to think..... :) |
baltec1
Bat Country
7765
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 14:19:00 -
[684] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote: You realise if they want to kill you, there's no precaution you can take. Scout on the gate. Gank squad somewhere else. They'll bump you with a neutral BS til the squad arrives and you're dead. You've just been lucky.
You are more likely to be struck by lightning than have your freighter ganked. That's what he wants you to think..... :) No we ran the numbers and it really is more dangerous to be a golfer in florida. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
275
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:06:00 -
[685] - Quote
you and I have different numbers then! |
Chinicata Shihari
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:13:00 -
[686] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:you and I have different numbers then! No its true. As long as you aren't dumb then you won't get ganked. We gank freighters which have double wraps in them because its like the lottery whether it will be a nice drop. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7767
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:16:00 -
[687] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:you and I have different numbers then!
Your average freighter flying smart has such a low chance of being ganked its almost nil. Its the stupid ones that die all the time. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 15:23:00 -
[688] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:A jump freighter that is being bumped can jump out of the system, that is, if he wasn't AFK in the first place. You still haven't answered my question; If suicide ganking freighters is so easy & profitable, why aren't more than a few groups doing it?
AFAIK you can't jump if your ship moves.
Looks I have to keep my freighters on station from now on. That "don't carry more than 1 bil worth in cargohold" useless now. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3585
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:24:00 -
[689] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:A jump freighter that is being bumped can jump out of the system, that is, if he wasn't AFK in the first place. You still haven't answered my question; If suicide ganking freighters is so easy & profitable, why aren't more than a few groups doing it? AFAIK you can't jump if your ship moves. And you can disable jump drive with warp scrambler. Looks I have to keep my freighters on station from now on. That "don't carry more than 1 bil worth in cargohold" useless now.
You can jump to a cyno if your ship is moving (seriously, how can you people not know this?). They aren't going to warp scramble you if they're bumping you, unless there's a bunch of Cats/Brutix/Talos sitting on you already & it's too late by that point. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:28:00 -
[690] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:They aren't going to warp scramble you if they're bumping you
Arazu/Lachesis + link Protei |
|
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:33:00 -
[691] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:They aren't going to warp scramble you if they're bumping you Arazu/Lachesis + link Protei
You expect them to throw away an Arazu every 10 seconds until they can get the ganking ships in position? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3585
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:41:00 -
[692] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:They aren't going to warp scramble you if they're bumping you Arazu/Lachesis + link Protei You expect them to throw away an Arazu every 10 seconds until they can get the ganking ships in position?
This just in: Highsec suicide gankers will throw away a T2 Recon every 10 seconds to stop your JF from jumping out of the system, even though this completely defeats the purpose of bumping in the first place. You heard it from Tobias Hareka, some highsec guy. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:51:00 -
[693] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:This just in: Highsec suicide gankers will throw away a T2 Recon every 10 seconds to stop your JF from jumping out of the system
But but... cost isn't a balancing factor. |
Dave Stark
3483
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:53:00 -
[694] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:This just in: Highsec suicide gankers will throw away a T2 Recon every 10 seconds to stop your JF from jumping out of the system But but... cost isn't a balancing factor.
we weren't talking about balance. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:58:00 -
[695] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:This just in: Highsec suicide gankers will throw away a T2 Recon every 10 seconds to stop your JF from jumping out of the system But but... cost isn't a balancing factor. we weren't talking about balance.
We were though? |
Dave Stark
3483
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:59:00 -
[696] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:This just in: Highsec suicide gankers will throw away a T2 Recon every 10 seconds to stop your JF from jumping out of the system But but... cost isn't a balancing factor. we weren't talking about balance. We were though?
we weren't. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:04:00 -
[697] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:This just in: Highsec suicide gankers will throw away a T2 Recon every 10 seconds to stop your JF from jumping out of the system But but... cost isn't a balancing factor. we weren't talking about balance. We were though? we weren't.
Pretty sure we were.
|
Dave Stark
3483
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:05:00 -
[698] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Pretty sure we were.
and people used to be pretty sure the earth was flat.
the thing you have in common with them is; being wrong. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:11:00 -
[699] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:and people used to be pretty sure the earth was flat.
Pretty sure they weren't: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
Guess you just can't win today? |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:14:00 -
[700] - Quote
It's not about recon ships, it's about the fact that you'd have to have enough pilots in position with scrams. If you had the pilots ready to go you could've just put them in gank ships in the first place. |
|
Dave Stark
3486
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:14:00 -
[701] - Quote
and yet magically; we still weren't talking about balance! |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:16:00 -
[702] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:and yet magically; we still weren't talking about balance!
We were though? Perhaps you should stop believing in magic and flat Earths.
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:It's not about recon ships, it's about the fact that you'd have to have enough pilots in position with scrams. If you had the pilots ready to go you could've just put them in gank ships in the first place.
How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30. |
Dave Stark
3486
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:20:00 -
[703] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:We were though? like i said; we weren't.
random player: {stupid idea} sensible people: {that's a stupid idea} you: {hrurrrrrrrr balance hurrrrrrrrrrrrr}
that's pretty much how the last few comments went. calling a bad idea bad has nothing to do with balance. |
Dave Stark
3486
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:22:00 -
[704] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30.
cycling every 10 seconds. 15min criminal flag.
15*60 = 900
900/10
90 players. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7767
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:22:00 -
[705] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30.
Its not possible.
|
Dave Stark
3486
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:23:00 -
[706] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30.
Its not possible.
even if it was, wouldn't the whole "concord on grid" thing from scramming them really **** up the actual gank? *shrug* |
baltec1
Bat Country
7768
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:26:00 -
[707] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
even if it was, wouldn't the whole "concord on grid" thing from scramming them really **** up the actual gank? *shrug*
They would foul up the people trying to scram it first, then the gankers. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3586
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:27:00 -
[708] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30.
Its not possible. even if it was, wouldn't the whole "concord on grid" thing from scramming them really **** up the actual gank? *shrug*
Yes. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:46:00 -
[709] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30. cycling every 10 seconds. 15min criminal flag. 15*60 = 900 900/10 90 players.
Depends where it happens to some extent I guess, but 30 accounts - fair enough.
|
Dave Stark
3486
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:47:00 -
[710] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30. cycling every 10 seconds. 15min criminal flag. 15*60 = 900 900/10 90 players. Depends where it happens to some extent I guess, but 30 accounts - fair enough.
no, it doesn't depend where it is.
the criminal flag is always 15 mins. |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
141
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:51:00 -
[711] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:the criminal flag is always 15 mins.
Never said it wasn't.
Dave Stark wrote: random player: {stupid idea regarding balance discussion} me: {that's an impractical idea due to cost/logistics} you: {but Stark is contradicting himself.... again}
that's pretty much how the last few comments went.
FTFY |
baltec1
Bat Country
7768
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 17:53:00 -
[712] - Quote
It doesn't matter because you cant do it. |
Dave Stark
3486
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:06:00 -
[713] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:the criminal flag is always 15 mins. Never said it wasn't. Dave Stark wrote: random player: {stupid idea regarding balance discussion} me: {that's an impractical idea due to cost/logistics} you: {but Stark is contradicting himself.... again}
that's pretty much how the last few comments went.
FTFY
if you think that's fixed, you clearly didn't actually read the conversation before posting. that's not even remotely close to how the conversation went.
i didn't make a single comment about it being impractical due to cost/logistics, at all. perhaps you should learn to read then you'd be able to make meaningful contributions to the thread. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:16:00 -
[714] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i didn't make a single comment about it being impractical due to cost/logistics, at all. perhaps you should learn to read then you'd be able to make meaningful contributions to the thread.
It's considered polite to give someone the benefit of ambiguity. If I put too much faith in your historically faulty logic I apologize. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:16:00 -
[715] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:How many pilots would it take to cycle ships? I suspect less than 30. cycling every 10 seconds. 15min criminal flag. 15*60 = 900 900/10 90 players. Depends where it happens to some extent I guess, but 30 accounts - fair enough.
Again, if you had 30 accounts in system with the JF, you could just murder it at once instead of scramming it. |
Dave Stark
3486
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:20:00 -
[716] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i didn't make a single comment about it being impractical due to cost/logistics, at all. perhaps you should learn to read then you'd be able to make meaningful contributions to the thread. It's considered polite to give someone the benefit of ambiguity. If I put too much faith in your logic I apologize.
people keep mistaking me for some one polite, and nice. those people are dumb. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:24:00 -
[717] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:people keep mistaking me for some one polite, and nice.
Not really; I do keep overestimating your reading comprehension though. |
Dave Stark
3488
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:28:00 -
[718] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:people keep mistaking me for some one polite, and nice. Not really; I do keep overestimating your reading comprehension though.
i see you've resulted to personal insults rather than actually discussing the topic at hand [not that you knew what that was]. i think that says it all, really. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:33:00 -
[719] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i see you've resulted to personal insults
Insult? I was just lamenting the fact that I expected you to understand the preceding post and you completely misinterpreted it. |
Dave Stark
3488
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:34:00 -
[720] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i see you've resulted to personal insults Insult? I was just lamenting the fact that I expected you to understand the preceding post and you completely misinterpreted it.
i see you still have nothing to contribute to the discussion. |
|
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:35:00 -
[721] - Quote
If isk tanking is stupid so is warp scrambling gankers. No point on stopping someone from doing something they don't want to do. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3586
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:37:00 -
[722] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i see you've resulted to personal insults Insult? I was just lamenting the fact that I expected you to understand the preceding post and you completely misinterpreted it. i see you still have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
Well of course he doesn't. We wouldn't listen to his inaccurate points that made no sense at all, so he'll troll the thread until it gets locked. This is how they keep intelligent discussion at the bottom of the pile you see, that way they can start a new thread all over again with a different character in the hopes that CCP will think it's a pressing issue (despite the numbers showing otherwise). The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3488
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:38:00 -
[723] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:i see you've resulted to personal insults Insult? I was just lamenting the fact that I expected you to understand the preceding post and you completely misinterpreted it. i see you still have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Well of course he doesn't. We wouldn't listen to his inaccurate points that made no sense at all, so he'll troll the thread until it gets locked. This is how they keep intelligent discussion at the bottom of the pile you see, that way they can start a new thread all over again with a different character in the hopes that CCP will think it's a pressing issue (despite the numbers showing otherwise).
if only they were that creative when undocking their freighters. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3586
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:39:00 -
[724] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:If isk tanking is stupid so is warp scrambling gankers. No point on stopping someone from doing something they don't want to do.
Warp scrambling gankers, especially if they're below -5 is a perfectly valid tactic that can in many cases cause a suicide attack to fail.
Edit: Your post makes no sense, much like your previous posts. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 18:52:00 -
[725] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:
And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?
When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.
You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.
I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.
You can do it for free. If it costs 70 million for you and your friends to blow one up. Considering salvage you should make a profit from it even if it drops nothing. As stated earlier in this thread character is a freighter pilot I fly almost daily between Amarr, jita and some hisec-lowsec staging systems to keep a sov alliance industry running. So why am I siding with the gankers? Because if flown with due precautions it is increadibly unlikely that a freighter will get ganked or if a gank squad starts to prep for an attack that you can stop or counter the attack and get the freighter out alive. The freighters don't need to be changed there is nothing wrong with them, pilots need to change the way they fly them that is the problem here. You realise if they want to kill you, there's no precaution you can take. Scout on the gate. Gank squad somewhere else. They'll bump you with a neutral BS til the squad arrives and you're dead. You've just been lucky.
Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's.
If the gankers plan for all of that they deserve the kill mail IMHO along with whatever drops which will be a lot less normally than what other freighters are carrying.
CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3587
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:12:00 -
[726] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's.
If the gankers plan for all of that they deserve the kill mail IMHO along with whatever drops which will be a lot less normally than what other freighters are carrying.
This guy is giving out solid advice on how to avoid being suicide ganked yet gets ignored. I'd like to point out that we have never suicide ganked a freighter that was taking such precautions. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:25:00 -
[727] - Quote
Matari Akiga wrote:Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's.
Do you think this is a fair expectation of an already boring profession with a huge amount of collateral and skill investment?
As far as I can figure, freighter income is on par with mining. Splitting mining income 8 ways sounds pretty bad.
Mallak Azaria wrote:This guy is giving out solid advice on how to avoid being suicide ganked yet gets ignored. I'd like to point out that we have never suicide ganked a freighter that was taking such precautions.
Your betters have ganked webbed freighters pretty regularly, verified KM's don't lie. |
Dave Stark
3490
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:28:00 -
[728] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's. Do you think this is a fair expectation of an already boring profession with a huge amount of collateral and skill investment?
when it takes an amount of players in double figures to gank a freighter, is it really unreasonable to expect a freighter to bring less than half of that amount to reduce the chance they get ganked?
as i pointed out earlier, if you bring an equal number of t1 logi as they bring meta 0 catalysts you can almost out rep all of their dps. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3588
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:32:00 -
[729] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's. Do you think this is a fair expectation of an already boring profession with a huge amount of collateral and skill investment? As far as I can figure, freighter income is on par with mining. Splitting mining income 8 ways sounds pretty bad. Mallak Azaria wrote:This guy is giving out solid advice on how to avoid being suicide ganked yet gets ignored. I'd like to point out that we have never suicide ganked a freighter that was taking such precautions. Your betters have ganked webbed freighters pretty regularly, verified KM's don't lie.
Care to link some of these killmails, or is this just another false claim like the one you made about freighters being suicide ganked by Bat Country every 20 minutes? The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:37:00 -
[730] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:when it takes an amount of players in double figures to gank a freighter, is it really unreasonable to expect a freighter to bring less than half of that amount to reduce the chance they get ganked?
Yes.
Also pretty sure you can do the gank with ~4 mid-end PCs.
Quote:as i pointed out earlier, if you bring an equal number of t1 logi as they bring meta 0 catalysts you can almost out rep all of their dps.
That sounds like a pretty terrible investment. |
|
Dave Stark
3490
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:40:00 -
[731] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:when it takes an amount of players in double figures to gank a freighter, is it really unreasonable to expect a freighter to bring less than half of that amount to reduce the chance they get ganked? Yes. Also pretty sure you can do the gank with ~4 mid-end PCs. Quote:as i pointed out earlier, if you bring an equal number of t1 logi as they bring meta 0 catalysts you can almost out rep all of their dps. That sounds like a pretty terrible investment.
what type of PC you have is irrelevant. |
Ressiv
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:53:00 -
[732] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.
It can't .. 18 of them can ... and should.
Quote:While I won't fault you for your meticulous personal practices, I think high sec freighting is a boring enough activity already without requiring teamwork. Your complaint seems to be that it isn't boring enough tho .. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:59:00 -
[733] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Care to link some of these killmails, or is this just another false claim like the one you made about freighters being suicide ganked by Bat Country every 20 minutes?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18471571&nolimit |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:09:00 -
[734] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:what type of PC you have is irrelevant.
It presumably limits how many cats you can box.
Quote:also, you thinking it's unreasonable to have a fleet of half the size in order to not be a free kill is the reason why freighters shouldn't be changed. you're unwilling to put in effort to protect yourself and expect ccp to do it for you.
You expecting free kills in highsec is unreasonable.
Ressiv wrote:Quote:The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation. It can't .. 18 of them can ... and should.
It can? Nothing else in the game comes remotely close to 300dps/m (except presumably free starter ships if you insist on being silly) |
baltec1
Bat Country
7769
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:10:00 -
[735] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
You expecting free kills in highsec is unreasonable.
They aren't free. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:13:00 -
[736] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
You expecting free kills in highsec is unreasonable.
They aren't free.
His words; not mine.
|
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:13:00 -
[737] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
You expecting free kills in highsec is unreasonable.
They aren't free.
I have money to lose 200 T2 fit Catalysts. I'm sure big alliances have even more. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1283
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:14:00 -
[738] - Quote
And it was so profitable, too! Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7769
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:15:00 -
[739] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
You expecting free kills in highsec is unreasonable.
They aren't free. I have money to lose 200 T2 fit Catalysts. I'm sure big alliances have even more.
Still isn't free. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1283
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:17:00 -
[740] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's.
If the gankers plan for all of that they deserve the kill mail IMHO along with whatever drops which will be a lot less normally than what other freighters are carrying.
This guy is giving out solid advice on how to avoid being suicide ganked yet gets ignored. I'd like to point out that we have never suicide ganked a freighter that was taking such precautions.
The sad thing is, he's not merely ignored in these threads; people will tell him that he's wrong.
This tells me one of two things about the freighter pilots that ignore or attempt to refute him.
1. They're all stupid.
2. They're really not that afraid of getting ganked, because it's not as common as they claim. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
|
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:18:00 -
[741] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:And it was so profitable, too!
There was ~40 billion worth of stuff in those packages. |
Dave Stark
3491
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:19:00 -
[742] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
You expecting free kills in highsec is unreasonable.
They aren't free. His words; not mine.
even if it was literally a kill that cost 0 isk, the fact that you're unwilling to even attempt not to be ganked is why you deserve to be ganked. |
Dave Stark
3491
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:20:00 -
[743] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:what type of PC you have is irrelevant. It presumably limits how many cats you can box.
and that has 0 bearing on the discussion. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:23:00 -
[744] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:even if it was literally a kill that cost 0 isk, the fact that you're unwilling to even attempt not to be ganked is why you deserve to be ganked.
Pretty sure if they were making no effort there'd be a lot more freighters flying through lowsec. It's all relative and at the moment it's heavily skewed in favor of the gankers - one need not look farther than the respective incomes.
Dave Stark wrote:and that has 0 bearing on the discussion.
Sure it does; you're whining about how coordinating 30 people is difficult and should be rewarded, but you're ignoring how easily ISBoxed the task is. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1283
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:24:00 -
[745] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:And it was so profitable, too! There was ~40 billion worth of stuff in those packages.
But see, we'll have to take your word for it, since the KM says you made nothing on the deal. (I have no reason to doubt you, but since plastic wrap never lists contents on KMs, no one knows but the gankers.) It is, however, half the problem when these clowns come in here screaming about how much you make.
Then again, they probably do know, since they're the idiots putting so much value into their cargo hold. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:25:00 -
[746] - Quote
im curious as to the smallest isk value cargo item that can fully fill a charon. (for the smallest cargo value of a completely filled ship) Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
180
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:26:00 -
[747] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:It can? Nothing else in the game comes remotely close to 300dps/m (except presumably free starter ships if you insist on being silly)
A Catalyst can't actually get 300dps/m, but here's something that can get 284dps/m:
[Atron, Atron fit]
[Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot]
[Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [Empty High slot]
[Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] |
Dave Stark
3491
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:28:00 -
[748] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:even if it was literally a kill that cost 0 isk, the fact that you're unwilling to even attempt not to be ganked is why you deserve to be ganked. Pretty sure if they were making no effort there'd be a lot more freighters flying through lowsec. It's all relative and at the moment it's heavily skewed in favor of the gankers - one need not look farther than the respective incomes. Dave Stark wrote:and that has 0 bearing on the discussion. Sure it does; you're whining about how coordinating 30 people is difficult and should be rewarded, but you're ignoring how easily ISBoxed the task is.
i didn't whine about how hard it was to coordinate 30 people at all, good luck finding that quote. i've not made a single comment on the difficulty of doing so.
again, isboxer is completely irrelevant to the thread. pretending it's relevant is hilarious and incorrect.
this i have to hear; how is it biased in favour of the gankers? really, this is going to be grade A stand up comedy material i can feel it. |
Dave Stark
3491
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:29:00 -
[749] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:im curious as to the smallest isk value cargo item that can fully fill a charon. (for the smallest cargo value of a completely filled ship)
what's the lowest isk/m3 item in the game? probably going to be shuttles i'm guessing. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1283
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:30:00 -
[750] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Pretty sure if they were making no effort there'd be a lot more freighters flying through lowsec. It's all relative and at the moment it's heavily skewed in favor of the gankers - one need not look farther than the respective incomes.
Avoiding low sec isn't exactly 'making an effort,' ignoring that fact that freighter pilots do actually operate in low sec.
Low sec also reduces the need for gank ships from multiples to no more than two. In a successful high sec gank, all of the effort involved has been assumed by the ganker(s). Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3589
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:35:00 -
[751] - Quote
I stand corrected. It turns out we have ganked one webbed freighter out of several hundred. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:42:00 -
[752] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:I stand corrected. It turns out we have ganked one webbed freighter out of several hundred.
https://zkillboard.com/detail/31575769/ https://zkillboard.com/detail/29318221/ https://zkillboard.com/detail/30087140/ ect.
Domanique Altares wrote:Avoiding low sec isn't exactly 'making an effort,' ignoring that fact that freighter pilots do actually operate in low sec.
Taking a significantly elongated route seems like considerable effort to me, especially considering the pay grade. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3589
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:43:00 -
[753] - Quote
=S Byerley]Sure it does; you're whining about how coordinating 30 people is difficult and should be rewarded, but you're ignoring how easily ISBoxed the task is.[/quote]
If its so easy to do then why is no one actually doing it? Hey look, it's that question you've been ignoring again!
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3589
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:46:00 -
[754] - Quote
Four out of several hundred, you're on a roll here. Now all you need to do is prove that we kill a freighter every 20 minutes to fully regain your credibility. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:46:00 -
[755] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:If its so easy to do then why is no one actually doing it? Hey look, it's that question you've been ignoring again!
People are doing it?
|
Dave Stark
3492
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:48:00 -
[756] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If its so easy to do then why is no one actually doing it? Hey look, it's that question you've been ignoring again! People are doing it?
at a rate of 1 freighter every 20 mins, right? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3589
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:50:00 -
[757] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If its so easy to do then why is no one actually doing it? Hey look, it's that question you've been ignoring again! People are doing it?
Well you tell us, you're supposedly an expert on the subject. Tell us all about these people that scan, bump, gank, loot & salvage freighters solo.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:52:00 -
[758] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: Well you tell us, you're supposedly an expert on the subject. Tell us all about these people that scan, bump, gank, loot & salvage freighters solo.
Being so obviously wrong makes you pretty incoherent I take it? Don't be flustered, I'm not judging. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1284
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:54:00 -
[759] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: Taking a significantly elongated route seems like considerable effort to me, especially considering the pay grade.
Adjusting your autopilot settings isn't effort. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
180
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 20:54:00 -
[760] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Taking a significantly elongated route seems like considerable effort to me, especially considering the pay grade.
Freighter pilots charge whatever people are willing to pay. The fact that the pay is so low indicates that it's very safe. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3589
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:02:00 -
[761] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: Well you tell us, you're supposedly an expert on the subject. Tell us all about these people that scan, bump, gank, loot & salvage freighters solo.
Being so obviously wrong makes you pretty incoherent I take it? Don't be flustered, I'm not judging.
I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong, but here you are claiming that these tasks are easy to ISbox, yet you're unable to explain why no one is doing this.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:05:00 -
[762] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:you are claiming that these tasks are easy to ISbox,
They are?
Quote:yet you're unable to explain why no one is doing this.
They are? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3589
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:09:00 -
[763] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:you are claiming that these tasks are easy to ISbox, They are? Quote:yet you're unable to explain why no one is doing this. They are?
Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:18:00 -
[764] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do.
What is it you think is hard? There being four separate (not time-overlapping but w/e) tasks? I specified four people; perhaps you can do the rest of the math yourself? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1286
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:32:00 -
[765] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:I don't actually know how to do what you've asked of me, and therefore cannot explain the process, so I will ask inane questions instead.
You still need to work on being clear about what you're saying. There's no need for deflection here; no one is going to judge you for not knowing something. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12959
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:36:00 -
[766] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do. What is it you think is hard? There being four separate (not time-overlapping but w/e) tasks? I specified four people; perhaps you can do the rest of the math yourself? You're basically presenting a fallacious argument, you're also avoiding providing evidence to back up your statement by going round in circles.
In common with Infinity, when someone actually proves you wrong, you change the subject.
Are you two running a book on how long you can keep this going with nonsense arguments and taking it in shifts to do so? Are you just a troll with nothing better to do? Do you genuinely believe all the delusional crap you're posting in this thread?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Matari Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:47:00 -
[767] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Matari Akiga wrote:Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's. Do you think this is a fair expectation of an already boring profession with a huge amount of collateral and skill investment? As far as I can figure, freighter income is on par with mining. Splitting mining income 8 ways sounds pretty bad.[quote=Mallak
Sorry to burst your bubble on this I don't do it for profit, I don't make any isk from my hi sec freighter runs and the other players who help me don't make any either, some of us are motivated by things greater than personal gain.
We do what we do for the good of the alliance but the lack of greed also helps avoid full cargo's which is why most people get ganked. CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.
Improvise, adapt and overcome! |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3590
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 21:57:00 -
[768] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do. What is it you think is hard? There being four separate (not time-overlapping but w/e) tasks? I specified four people; perhaps you can do the rest of the math yourself?
You said 4 mid-end PC's, which is not the same thing as 4 people. As for the tasks your assumption of 4 is also incorrect, but as someone with a very limited grasp on the subject of suicide ganking this is to be expected.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:52:00 -
[769] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:You said 4 mid-end PC's, which is not the same thing as 4 people.
If you're building a cluster you wouldn't want mid-end PC's (you either go up or down), and I'd personally never use more than one set of inputs so my assumption was four people for four boxes. However, Eve is extremely light on input and I'm pretty sure if you wanted to sit there with four keyboards (maybe an easily accessible input switch) it wouldn't be hard.
Is your question regarding how ISBoxer works or can you really not multi-task something as simple as suicide ganking in Eve? The requirements are so intuitive for me that I wouldn't know where to start.
Quote:As for the tasks your assumption of 4 is also incorrect
You listed off four; not me. Feel free to list off a couple trivial jobs like suicide alt and scout that don't significantly divide attention.
Matari Akiga wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble on this I don't do it for profit.
I gathered, but I imagine CCP would rather not have the profession ruined for those who do. |
Dristan Evrard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 03:42:00 -
[770] - Quote
Not that it's ever constructive to post in flame threads...
I think freighters should be given the option to fit some low slot modules, but have their default cargo lowered so that the maximum possible cargo remains the same as now. Then, haulers will have the option to customize their freighter for maximum cargo, or for more tank.
Meanwhile, gankers will have a greater number of variables to assess and more decisions to make, relieving the boredom that they complain so bitterly about. They'll also get the opportunity to laugh at the shitfit freighters they've ganked (hull reppers anyone?).
I see this as a win-win. |
|
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
110
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 03:58:00 -
[771] - Quote
Freighters should be indirectly nerfed by separating the warring empire factions with low sec, and jump Freighters should be hit with a severe jump range nerf or removed so that large nullsec entities have to rely more on local manufacturing and regional markets are more competitive. |
Dave Stark
3498
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:26:00 -
[772] - Quote
Xavier Thorm wrote:Freighters should be indirectly nerfed by separating the warring empire factions with low sec, and jump Freighters should be hit with a severe jump range nerf or removed so that large nullsec entities have to rely more on local manufacturing and regional markets are more competitive.
it's a boring and uninteresting change that will simply serve to make eve less interesting. |
Xolve
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1948
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 05:56:00 -
[773] - Quote
The current state of Freighters and Jump Freighters is just fine.
CCP can not fix individual stupidity, ignorance and general idiocy; stop asking them already! |
baltec1
Bat Country
7771
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 07:39:00 -
[774] - Quote
Dristan Evrard wrote:Not that it's ever constructive to post in flame threads...
I think freighters should be given the option to fit some low slot modules, but have their default cargo lowered so that the maximum possible cargo remains the same as now. Then, haulers will have the option to customize their freighter for maximum cargo, or for more tank.
Meanwhile, gankers will have a greater number of variables to assess and more decisions to make, relieving the boredom that they complain so bitterly about. They'll also get the opportunity to laugh at the shitfit freighters they've ganked (hull reppers anyone?).
I see this as a win-win.
You just nerfed my freighter and forced me to make twice as many trips no matter how I fit the freighter. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1777
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:28:00 -
[775] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
Are you seriously crying that 17 battlecruisers are able to kill a single freighter? How delusional do you have to be to think that is broken or unbalanced. That's fine. A dozen or more combat ships should be able to take down a single industrial ship.
the "isk tank" argument is blatantly invalid |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12994
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 08:56:00 -
[776] - Quote
Idiots, they're everywhere.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
372
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:28:00 -
[777] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
Are you seriously crying that 17 battlecruisers are able to kill a single freighter? How delusional do you have to be to think that is broken or unbalanced. That's fine. A dozen or more combat ships should be able to take down a single industrial ship. the "isk tank" argument is blatantly invalid 17 Battlecruisers is fine imo, that's a large isk investment. 30ish destroyers on the other hand is not fine. That's free ganking.
Having been thinking about it, I think the real issue is destroyers themselves. A destroyer puts close to the same DPS as a cruiser on a target, for 1000% less the price of the hull.
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
|
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:46:00 -
[778] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:17 Battlecruisers is fine imo, that's a large isk investment. 30ish destroyers on the other hand is not fine. That's free ganking.
Having been thinking about it, I think the real issue is destroyers themselves. A destroyer puts close to the same DPS as a cruiser on a target, for 1000% less the price of the hull.
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
It's not free ganking. It's thirty ships and pilots. The isk investment in ships and modules isn't that high, but the effort required to get that many pilots coordinated is considerable. Are you literally saying 30 pilots shouldn't be able to kill one? Think about how dumb dumb dumb that is for a second.
The material price of the destroyers is irrelevant, because isk tanking is an invalid concept. The idea that "my ship + it's cargo cost 10bn, therefore it must cost someone else equal or greater than 10bn to destroy it" is simply ridiculous. That's not how it works, it's a hopelessly stupid idea conceived by minds of children. There are thirty of them, and one of you. It doesn't matter if their thirty ships only cost 2-4m each, there's thirty of them. Against one of you.
Their role is a combat ship that specializes against frigates, but having a specialty does not mean they shouldn't be able to do things outside that specialty. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1296
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:47:00 -
[779] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
DPS is DPS, regardless of the source. You can gank a freighter with a fleet of noobships, if you want. And they cost exactly nothing. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12999
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 09:59:00 -
[780] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
DPS is DPS, regardless of the source. You can gank a freighter with a fleet of noobships, if you want. And they cost exactly nothing. Tippia did the math a while back, you can kill a Titan with noobships given enough numbers and time.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
372
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:01:00 -
[781] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:17 Battlecruisers is fine imo, that's a large isk investment. 30ish destroyers on the other hand is not fine. That's free ganking.
Having been thinking about it, I think the real issue is destroyers themselves. A destroyer puts close to the same DPS as a cruiser on a target, for 1000% less the price of the hull.
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
It's not free ganking. It's thirty ships and pilots. The isk investment in ships and modules isn't that high, but the effort required to get that many pilots coordinated is considerable. Are you literally saying 30 pilots shouldn't be able to kill one? Think about how dumb dumb dumb that is for a second. The material price of the destroyers is irrelevant, because isk tanking is an invalid concept. The idea that "my ship + it's cargo cost 10bn, therefore it must cost someone else equal or greater than 10bn to destroy it" is simply ridiculous. That's not how it works, it's a hopelessly stupid idea conceived by minds of children. There are thirty of them, and one of you. It doesn't matter if their thirty ships only cost 2-4m each, there's thirty of them. Against one of you. Their role is a combat ship that specializes against frigates, but having a specialty does not mean they shouldn't be able to do things outside that specialty. You're incorrect. Its part of balance as I have already proved in this thread. If a variable can be adjusted to cause wanted or decrease unwanted behaviour in a playerbase its a balancing variable.
When you can kill a freighter an empty freighter and profit which you can (profit is not just isk, it also includes killmails) then the game is imbalanced. Isk wise if you can kill an empty freighter for 70 million and salvage it you have more isk than when you started. Clearly not a good situation for the game to be in.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1297
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:11:00 -
[782] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
DPS is DPS, regardless of the source. You can gank a freighter with a fleet of noobships, if you want. And they cost exactly nothing. Tippia did the math a while back, you can kill a Titan with noobships given enough numbers and time.
Of course you can. You can kill anything with noobships.
The presented argument that X ship should only be used to kill Y is absurd.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13000
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:12:00 -
[783] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:17 Battlecruisers is fine imo, that's a large isk investment. 30ish destroyers on the other hand is not fine. That's free ganking.
Having been thinking about it, I think the real issue is destroyers themselves. A destroyer puts close to the same DPS as a cruiser on a target, for 1000% less the price of the hull.
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
It's not free ganking. It's thirty ships and pilots. The isk investment in ships and modules isn't that high, but the effort required to get that many pilots coordinated is considerable. Are you literally saying 30 pilots shouldn't be able to kill one? Think about how dumb dumb dumb that is for a second. The material price of the destroyers is irrelevant, because isk tanking is an invalid concept. The idea that "my ship + it's cargo cost 10bn, therefore it must cost someone else equal or greater than 10bn to destroy it" is simply ridiculous. That's not how it works, it's a hopelessly stupid idea conceived by minds of children. There are thirty of them, and one of you. It doesn't matter if their thirty ships only cost 2-4m each, there's thirty of them. Against one of you. Their role is a combat ship that specializes against frigates, but having a specialty does not mean they shouldn't be able to do things outside that specialty. You're incorrect. Its part of balance as I have already proved in this thread. If a variable can be adjusted to cause wanted or decrease unwanted behaviour in a playerbase its a balancing variable. When you can kill a freighter an empty freighter and profit which you can (profit is not just isk, it also includes killmails) then the game is imbalanced. Isk wise if you can kill an empty freighter for 70 million and salvage it you have more isk than when you started. Clearly not a good situation for the game to be in. The only thing you've proven in this thread is that you can't admit when you're wrong. Trying to have a debate with you is like trying to attack an armoured vehicle with a toothpick.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1297
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:13:00 -
[784] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: Its part of balance as I have already proved in this thread.
The only thing you've proven in this thread is that you're completely ignorant of game balance as a concept or a reality. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
372
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:39:00 -
[785] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Its part of balance as I have already proved in this thread.
The only thing you've proven in this thread is that you're completely ignorant of game balance as a concept or a reality. You're completely wrong. If you like I can give you examples from developer conferences and resources which clearly show that time to acquire and effort to destroy are important balancing considerations in the production of mmo games.
If I do that will you all shut up and accept it? Or continue to pointlessly argue against something that is really quite self explanatory and simple? |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1183
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:51:00 -
[786] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:15 pilots is still 15 pilots, regardless of the number of players controlling them.
Nope
1 hits one button and at the exact same time all ships shoot, the other way with 15 different people from different places etc will not act exactly the same, it's not rocket science.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1298
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 10:59:00 -
[787] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:15 pilots is still 15 pilots, regardless of the number of players controlling them. Nope 1 hits one button and at the exact same time all ships shoot, the other way with 15 different people from different places etc will not act exactly the same, it's not rocket science.
It's also not rocket science that there's enough leeway in CONCORD response time that such latency doesn't matter.
15 ships is still 15 ships, ISBoxed by one guy, or a group of buddies bullshitting on comms.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13006
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:03:00 -
[788] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:15 pilots is still 15 pilots, regardless of the number of players controlling them. Nope 1 hits one button and at the exact same time all ships shoot, the other way with 15 different people from different places etc will not act exactly the same, it's not rocket science. 1 second tick, if every one of those pilots hits the pewpew button within that tick, TQ sees them as all hitting it at the same time.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1298
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:03:00 -
[789] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Or continue to pointlessly argue against something that is really quite self explanatory and simple?
It's hardly pointless; it keeps you coming in here and spewing your ignorant prattle, which is worth its weight in gold for the entertainment factor alone.
It's also hardly self explanatory that you have somehow become the arbiter of what is and is not balanced in EVE online. You wouldn't happen to have a CCP developer stating for the record that freighters are unbalanced, would you? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13006
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:06:00 -
[790] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Its part of balance as I have already proved in this thread.
The only thing you've proven in this thread is that you're completely ignorant of game balance as a concept or a reality. You're completely wrong. If you like I can give you examples from developer conferences and resources which clearly show that time to acquire and effort to destroy are important balancing considerations in the production of mmo games. If I do that will you all shut up and accept it? Or continue to pointlessly argue against something that is really quite self explanatory and simple? Feel free to do so, and then we'll pick them apart to see if they actually say what you think they say.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1183
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:14:00 -
[791] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:15 pilots is still 15 pilots, regardless of the number of players controlling them. Nope 1 hits one button and at the exact same time all ships shoot, the other way with 15 different people from different places etc will not act exactly the same, it's not rocket science. It's also not rocket science that there's enough leeway in CONCORD response time that such latency doesn't matter. 15 ships is still 15 ships, ISBoxed by one guy, or a group of buddies bullshitting on comms.
Yes there is a difference, you don't want to admit be it but there's one and not a small one. It happens in all big fights, in small fights and almost every situations where different players act together:
-one gets dc -one got gone take a ___ and takes ages -one got his mom yelling at him -one lags because he's watching adults stuff while playing
etc etc etc
As much as you want to put aside or ignore all aspect that make the difference in between 15 characters played by a single guy and 15 different people, we, from the other side reading this we can't stop reading these arguments with a large smile.
You know, makes me think about this one guy I was chating with a couple day ago, he's using aimbots and whatnot for a know fps and was in my team so I respectfully asked him to stop and a small discussion was then started. The guys argument and he wouldn't change his mind about, is that if it's free then you shouldn't be able to pay and get the highest tier stuff from the beginning, therefore he was hacking. I asked him how much he payed for that hack (!) he told me 15$ by paypal with option full security, in short when hack is detected he can't use it but when it does he can do anything he wants.
This multibox stuff is about the same idiocy level. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Dristan Evrard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:16:00 -
[792] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: You just nerfed my freighter and forced me to make twice as many trips no matter how I fit the freighter.
Why? I'm saying you should be able to adapt your freighter depending on whether your cargo is capacity limited or collateral limited.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1299
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:26:00 -
[793] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Yes there is a difference, you don't want to admit be it but there's one and not a small one. It happens in all big fights, in small fights and almost every situations where different players act together:
I don't need to 'admit it.' It isn't rocket science, at all. Getting other players to pay attention isn't hard, at all. Making sure to ask everyone to X up if they are ready isn't hard, at all. Planning enough surplus DPS on the field to get things done isn't hard, at all. **** can happen, and so you plan for it to happen.
If you lack the basic leadership and mathematical skills to cover a contingency in a high sec gank, I feel for you. But please do not project your own failings onto the rest of us who are able to competently conduct these things. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13007
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:43:00 -
[794] - Quote
Suicide ganking isn't "push button, receive bacon", if you're doing it you have to take into account Murphys' law. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 13:03:00 -
[795] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:You're incorrect. Its part of balance as I have already proved in this thread. If a variable can be adjusted to cause wanted or decrease unwanted behaviour in a playerbase its a balancing variable.
When you can kill a freighter an empty freighter and profit which you can (profit is not just isk, it also includes killmails) then the game is imbalanced. Isk wise if you can kill an empty freighter for 70 million and salvage it you have more isk than when you started. Clearly not a good situation for the game to be in.
There's a lot wrong with this post.
For a start, cost is not a part of a balance. You have not "proven" that at all, you've repeatedly demonstrated you do not understand this game and it's mechanics, or the concept of balance at all.
Secondly, there's an implication regarding "unwanted behaviour" - ganking people, even ones in expensive ships is every explicitly a WANTED behaviour. If It weren't, CCP wouldn't allow you to activate your guns in highsec, or on a ship that cost "too much" compared to yours. The devs, the mechanics, the ten year history of this game proves that it's an intentional, desired playstyle.
Thirdly, the fact that you can kill a freighter (or ANY ship) for profit proves the game IS balanced - literally the exact opposite of what you're saying. It would be imbalanced and disastrous for the game if it weren't possible or beneficial in anyway (profits, tears, whatever) to kill ships that cost more than your own. To suggest such a thing is incomprehensibly idiotic.
You could fill a freighter with your tears. And we'd gank it.
Biomass yourself
|
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
183
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:43:00 -
[796] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:17 Battlecruisers is fine imo, that's a large isk investment. 30ish destroyers on the other hand is not fine. That's free ganking.
Having been thinking about it, I think the real issue is destroyers themselves. A destroyer puts close to the same DPS as a cruiser on a target, for 1000% less the price of the hull.
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
It's not free ganking. It's thirty ships and pilots. The isk investment in ships and modules isn't that high, but the effort required to get that many pilots coordinated is considerable. Are you literally saying 30 pilots shouldn't be able to kill one? Think about how dumb dumb dumb that is for a second. The material price of the destroyers is irrelevant, because isk tanking is an invalid concept. The idea that "my ship + it's cargo cost 10bn, therefore it must cost someone else equal or greater than 10bn to destroy it" is simply ridiculous. That's not how it works, it's a hopelessly stupid idea conceived by minds of children. There are thirty of them, and one of you. It doesn't matter if their thirty ships only cost 2-4m each, there's thirty of them. Against one of you. Their role is a combat ship that specializes against frigates, but having a specialty does not mean they shouldn't be able to do things outside that specialty. You're incorrect. Its part of balance as I have already proved in this thread. If a variable can be adjusted to cause wanted or decrease unwanted behaviour in a playerbase its a balancing variable. When you can kill a freighter an empty freighter and profit which you can (profit is not just isk, it also includes killmails) then the game is imbalanced. Isk wise if you can kill an empty freighter for 70 million and salvage it you have more isk than when you started. Clearly not a good situation for the game to be in.
Why? Even if what you said is true, empty freighters aren't being ganked for profit because it takes a large amount of coordination and effort for the tiny per-pilot profit that you would get out of it. And I guess if killmails are profit (lmao) then any suicide ganks are profitable. |
BadAssMcKill
Love Squad
339
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 14:49:00 -
[797] - Quote
Wow I can't believe I haven't seen this thread yet lmao http://i.imgur.com/6j6cIZE.gif-á |
Razzack Chronos
Industrial Accidents Incorporated Infinity Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:01:00 -
[798] - Quote
Suicide ganking in high sec is currently too easy. Risk/Potential reward or Risk/Shiny KM is too great.
You can pay little to kill a lot and that is the issue I have with it. This is seen with countless mining barge/exhumer kills, freighter kills and pirate BS kills.
EDIT: Also, a basic catalyst suicide ganker can be trained in something like, just under 2 weeks and put out 300~ dps. |
Yuri Antollare
Justified Chaos
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:10:00 -
[799] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.
Really? it's considered bad form for civilian bulk carriers to be packing armed crewmen or guards, many ports won't let civilian vessels dock if there are armed personnel aboard. Source : United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea
I think suicide ganking is fine as is, but the dude is getting a hard rap here.
I would think a modern day pirate would have to, at some level, accept the fact that his chosen occupation has a high chance of death. Media reports indicate that at least 62 pirates were killed at sea in the first five months of 2011, which amounts to 9% of the 'pirate population' when annualized. That is actually a significant amount of perma pod death. . In fact the instances of piracy in the most notable areas has suffered dramatic declines in recent years, only one ship was attacked in the third quarter of 2012 compared to 36 during the same span in 2011. In addition your numbers/assertions were slightly off. 25 military vessels from the EU and NATO countries, the United States, China, Russia, India and Japan patrol approximately 8.3m km2 (3.2m sq miles) of ocean, an area about the size of Western Europe. When you factor in the other obvious elements of the force (Intelligence gathering/on shore operations, reconnaissance aircraft) such an area of space is well within the capabilities of the forces on station to manage.
Furthermore, while UNCoS generally dictates no armed civilian merchant should carry arms, as a response to the rise in modern piracy, however, the U.S. Government changed its rules so that it is now possible for US-flagged vessels to embark a team of armed private security guards. Other countries and organisations have similarly followed suit.
What does this all really mean for EvE and freighter killing? Absolutely nothing, which is why really your wrong to him on both counts, pirates in fact die a lot, and yes using a real life example as such to talk about balance was really quite useless. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1780
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 15:18:00 -
[800] - Quote
Razzack Chronos wrote:Suicide ganking in high sec is currently too easy. Risk/Potential reward or Risk/Shiny KM is too great.
You can pay little to kill a lot and that is the issue I have with it. This is seen with countless mining barge/exhumer kills, freighter kills and pirate BS kills.
EDIT: Also, a basic catalyst suicide ganker can be trained in something like, just under 2 weeks and put out 300~ dps.
If it's "too easy" now then why is it at the lowest it has been in the history of the game?
As for the risk vs reward, lets take a look:
Losing your ship is guaranteed. Sizable sec hits are guaranteed. People having kill rights on you is guaranteed.
Know what isn't guaranteed? Getting the kill in the first place. What else isn't guaranteed? The payout from the loot fairy.
So don't spew this moronic crap about the risk vs reward being skewed too far in favour of gankers, because it's laughably false.
Additionally, paying a little to kill a lot is evidence of balance - otherwise you end up in the situation where bigger is always better, and where the new guy, or the little guy, can never ever outdo the older, bigger guys. That's broken, bro.
It's also a misrepresentation of costs, because on top of the isk there is also the fact you have to get a dozen or more players on at the same time, and organized, and planning and calculating what you need, and putting in effort and doing the legwork in getting the targets. To just look at the isk worth of the catalysts vs the isk worth of the freighter and not at all the other things involved in the situation is extreme tunnel vision imo |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7772
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:17:00 -
[801] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:
When you can kill a freighter an empty freighter and profit which you can
No you cant.
Quote: (profit is not just isk, it also includes killmails)
killmails don't pay the bills.
Quote: Isk wise if you can kill an empty freighter for 70 million and salvage it you have more isk than when you started.
No you cant. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7772
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:21:00 -
[802] - Quote
Dristan Evrard wrote:baltec1 wrote: You just nerfed my freighter and forced me to make twice as many trips no matter how I fit the freighter.
Why? I'm saying you should be able to adapt your freighter depending on whether your cargo is capacity limited or collateral limited.
I cant fly as much stuff with an amour fit because of the nerf to cargo. I cannot carry as much cargo with the cargo fit because of the reduced tank every cargo extender gives.
No matter what fit I cant carry as much cargo as now. Your plan is a nerf. |
Dave Stark
3501
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:03:00 -
[803] - Quote
41 pages of people being wrong. impressive. i was hoping this thread would have died it's long over due death by the time i'd gotten home from work. alas, not meant to be. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13084
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:05:00 -
[804] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote: What does this all really mean for EvE and freighter killing? Absolutely nothing, which is why really your wrong to him on both counts, pirates in fact die a lot, and yes using a real life example as such to talk about balance was really quite useless.
I'll agree to disagree with you on this, but Infinity is getting a hard rap because he's absolutely certain that he is right, about absolutely everything, ever.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:22:00 -
[805] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:41 pages of people being wrong. impressive. i was hoping this thread would have died it's long over due death by the time i'd gotten home from work. alas, not meant to be.
Sry but this comment is the same **** just in another color, freighter need some overhaul, alone throught the fact that all other Ships get their balancing.
I would suggest give them a logi bonus what increase incomming logi support, when freighter then still get ganked you can refer to it. |
Dave Stark
3502
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:28:00 -
[806] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Dave Stark wrote:41 pages of people being wrong. impressive. i was hoping this thread would have died it's long over due death by the time i'd gotten home from work. alas, not meant to be. Sry but this comment is the same **** just in another color, freighter need some overhaul, alone throught the fact that all other Ships get their balancing. I would suggest give them a logi bonus what increase incomming logi support, when freighter then still get ganked you can refer to it.
freighters don't need any overhaul. there's absolutely nothing wrong with freighters. nothing does their job better, nothing makes them obsolete, there's sufficient variation between the four freighters.
i fail to see how freighters aren't balanced.
no, people crying about losing a freighter carrying 50bn isk of junk while on auto pilot doesn't mean they aren't balanced. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3601
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:29:00 -
[807] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Dave Stark wrote:41 pages of people being wrong. impressive. i was hoping this thread would have died it's long over due death by the time i'd gotten home from work. alas, not meant to be. Sry but this comment is the same **** just in another color, freighter need some overhaul, alone throught the fact that all other Ships get their balancing. I would suggest give them a logi bonus what increase incomming logi support, when freighter then still get ganked you can refer to it.
Intelligent freighter pilots disagree with this. So who is correct? The dumb freighter pilots that get suicide ganked or the smart ones that don't?
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:35:00 -
[808] - Quote
Every Ship gonna get an overhaul, Deal with it. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:39:00 -
[809] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Every Ship gonna get an overhaul, Deal with it. CCP could buff the heck out of freighters, and nothing would change, they'd still die because morons insist on packing them to the brim with stuff, hitting AP and going AFK.
God can't patch stupid, what makes you think CCP can?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Xolve
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1952
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:43:00 -
[810] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Sry but this comment is the same **** just in another color, freighter need some overhaul, alone throught the fact that all other Ships get their balancing.
I would suggest give them a logi bonus what increase incomming logi support, when freighter then still get ganked you can refer to it.
Freighters are fine as is, the base T1 Freighter is designed to move massive quantities of build components; not a years worth of exploration/complex loot. Yes of course they die to 30 destroyers, just like literally every other ship in the game.
Jump Freighters cost 7b, but not because it's supposed to be an invincible cargo container (which it practically is if used properly)- you're paying for the ability to boosh 300k+m3 10ly away; while with maxed skills they are fairly agile and have a decent amount more EHP/Resists. If you fly one with Nomads your align time is similar to that of a Rokh (and you will be pretty damn difficult to gank).
While rebalancing is a thing these days, they might touch on the base stats of a freighter, but your not going to get module slots or innane bonuses; Flying while actually at your keyboard and not afk increases your freighter/JFs survival to damn near 100%. |
|
Dave Stark
3503
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:43:00 -
[811] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Every Ship gonna get an overhaul, Deal with it.
yeah and an "overhaul" doesn't mean "ccp are going to buff freighters to let people with an iq lower than their shoe size autopilot them full of shiny loot with impuny"
be careful what you wish for. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:44:00 -
[812] - Quote
Funny how the ganker and "intelligent" freighter Pilots are afraid of some small rebalancing, whats wrong do the stupid freighter Pilots do have some points after all?
Most T1 Ships where fine to, but they got changed anyway, some buffed some nerfed. And Jump/ Freighter will get their change regardless if the one or the other side is right or wrong or what ever. |
Dave Stark
3503
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:51:00 -
[813] - Quote
we're not afraid of rebalancing. however if there's rebalancing to be done surely it should be done to ships that actually need it rather than ships that don't need it and are simply flown by people who'd rather cry on forums than think for a few seconds?
and most t1 ships weren't fine, don't kid yourself. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
101
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 17:58:00 -
[814] - Quote
Interesting most people in the forums say they dont like most of the changes.
But what ever, i dont care about freighter just had a blast, Reading this childish Blame Game. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:07:00 -
[815] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Interesting most people in the forums say they dont like most of the changes.
But what ever, i dont care about freighter just had a blast, Reading this childish Blame Game. You obviously cared enough to share your thoughts.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:10:00 -
[816] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:If it's "too easy" now then why is it at the lowest it has been in the history of the game?
Lol? It's not.
As for the rookie ship silliness, you'd cap a non-reinforced node so... good luck with that. |
Dave Stark
3504
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:13:00 -
[817] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:If it's "too easy" now then why is it at the lowest it has been in the history of the game? Lol? It's not. As for the rookie ship silliness, you'd cap a non-reinforced node so... good luck with that.
citation needed. |
Dave Stark
3504
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:14:00 -
[818] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Interesting most people in the forums say they dont like most of the changes.
But what ever, i dont care about freighter just had a blast, Reading this childish Blame Game.
not sure which forums you're reading then. it's widely accepted that the ship rebalancing is one of the best things to happen to eve for a long time, and the log in figures reflect this last time i checked. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:19:00 -
[819] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:If it's "too easy" now then why is it at the lowest it has been in the history of the game? Lol? It's not. As for the rookie ship silliness, you'd cap a non-reinforced node so... good luck with that. Shift change at the delusional posting factory?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:05:00 -
[820] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:If it's "too easy" now then why is it at the lowest it has been in the history of the game? Lol? It's not. As for the rookie ship silliness, you'd cap a non-reinforced node so... good luck with that. citation needed.
Obelisk = 202k thermal ehp Velator = 5-7dps Concord response time = 7-18s
=> 1604 - 5772 required Velators with no margin of errors.
Realistically, you're going to have heavy TiDi and coordination issues regardless so you need a decent margin => > 2k Velators => system will start freaking out and not letting people in if not reinforced.
Oh, did you mean the ridiculous claim that Freighter ganking is at an all-time low? You'll have to bug Gunslinger about that since the burden of proof is on him. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:34:00 -
[821] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: Obelisk = 202k thermal ehp Velator = 5-7dps Concord response time = 7-18s
=> 1604 - 5772 required Velators with no margin of errors.
Realistically, you're going to have heavy TiDi and coordination issues regardless so you need a decent margin => > 2k Velators => system will start freaking out and not letting people in if not reinforced.
[Velator, gank]
2x Light Neutron Blaster II (Void S)
2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
2x Hobgoblin II
All skills at V 206 DPS overheated
An Obelisks EHP against blaster fire is 202363 Assuming a 0.5 or 0.6 system, with pre-baited Concord, gives a Concord response time of 15-18 seconds. Going with 15 seconds as it's the faster response time you need to deliver a rounded up 13491 damage points per second. 13491/206=65.49, so under ideal conditions 66 max gank Velators are required to destroy an Obelisk before Concord turns up at a cost of around 4.1 million isk per ship. Call it 80 to account for Murphy's Law and pilot error.
That's nowhere near your numbers.
[Velator, meta 0 cheap as chips gank]
2x Light Neutron Blaster I (Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S)
2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer I
2x Hobgoblin I
All skills V 132 DPS overheated
Same scenario 103 meta 0 fitted Velators, at around 500,000 isk per ship, required under ideal conditions, call it 120 to account for Murphy and pilot error, still nowhere near your figures.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:41:00 -
[822] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:[Let's spend 4.4m fitting a Velator despite the previous assumption that it's free!]
That's nowhere near your numbers.
I wonder why? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:43:00 -
[823] - Quote
Now read the post again, you can effectively gank an Obelisk for circa 1/2 million isk per ship. That's basically free. No ganker in their right mind is going to gank with a civilian blaster equipped ship, your scenario is completely unrealistic.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:49:00 -
[824] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Now read the post again, you can effectively gank an Obelisk for circa 1/2 million isk per ship. That's basically free. No ganker in their right mind is going to gank with a civilian blaster equipped ship, your scenario is completely unrealistic.
No thanks, you adopted a completely different assumption and then wondered why my result was different so I explained. It was in response to a reductio ad absurdum argument so naturally the scenario is unrealistic.
Incidentally, 120*500k > 30*1.5m |
Dave Stark
3518
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:50:00 -
[825] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:If it's "too easy" now then why is it at the lowest it has been in the history of the game? Lol? It's not. As for the rookie ship silliness, you'd cap a non-reinforced node so... good luck with that. citation needed. Obelisk = 202k thermal ehp Velator = 5-7dps Concord response time = 7-18s => 1604 - 5772 required Velators with no margin of errors. Realistically, you're going to have heavy TiDi and coordination issues regardless so you need a decent margin => > 2k Velators => system will start freaking out and not letting people in if not reinforced. Oh, did you mean the ridiculous claim that Freighter ganking is at an all-time low? You'll have to bug Gunslinger about that since the burden of proof is on him.
that wasn't the citation i was asking for. if you can't provide citation we'll have to assume you're lying, again. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:53:00 -
[826] - Quote
Where does 1.5M come from? I'm presuming you're referring to catalysts?
If so show me a viable gank Catalyst that can be fitted for 1.5 million isk, a basic meta 0 Catalyst is circa 2 million isk to fit and grossly inefficient at the job.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7776
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:57:00 -
[827] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Where does 1.5M come from? I'm presuming you're referring to Catalysts?
If so show me a viable gank Catalyst that can be fitted for 1.5 million isk, a basic meta 0 Catalyst is circa 2 million isk to fit and grossly inefficient at the job.
We use t2 mostly so I would like to know where to get these cheap things from. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:00:00 -
[828] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Where does 1.5M come from? I'm presuming you're referring to Catalysts?
If so show me a viable gank Catalyst that can be fitted for 1.5 million isk, a basic meta 0 Catalyst is circa 2 million isk to fit and grossly inefficient at the job. We use t2 mostly so I would like to know where to get these cheap things from. Out of his backside, much like his posting?
PS please clarify that it's him and not me that the question is aimed at, I know I'm terribad, but that sort of association makes me look even worse
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:02:00 -
[829] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:that wasn't the citation i was asking for. if you can't provide citation we'll have to assume you're lying, again.
In which case you first have to assume that Gunslinger was lying, making my comment irrelevant. I'm comfortable with that. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7776
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:07:00 -
[830] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Where does 1.5M come from? I'm presuming you're referring to Catalysts?
If so show me a viable gank Catalyst that can be fitted for 1.5 million isk, a basic meta 0 Catalyst is circa 2 million isk to fit and grossly inefficient at the job. We use t2 mostly so I would like to know where to get these cheap things from. Out of his backside, much like his posting? PS please clarify that it's him and not me that the question is aimed at, I know I'm terribad, but that sort of association makes me look even worse
Everyone.
I feel its nice to give out some facts for everyone every so often to help as they often get lost in these merry go rounds. |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:11:00 -
[831] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Where does 1.5M come from? I'm presuming you're referring to Catalysts?
If so show me a viable gank Catalyst that can be fitted for 1.5 million isk, a basic meta 0 Catalyst is circa 2 million isk to fit and grossly inefficient at the job.
Only if you rig it, and no it's not.
Quote:120 meta 0 fitted noobships is actually around the same cost as 30 meta 0 fitted Catalysts.
Are you saying then that 30 meta 0 fitter Catalysts are free? If high sec ganking with cats = 0 cost, we still have a problem.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13090
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:15:00 -
[832] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Where does 1.5M come from? I'm presuming you're referring to Catalysts?
If so show me a viable gank Catalyst that can be fitted for 1.5 million isk, a basic meta 0 Catalyst is circa 2 million isk to fit and grossly inefficient at the job. Only if you rig it, and no it's not. Quote:120 meta 0 fitted noobships is actually around the same cost as 30 meta 0 fitted Catalysts. Are you saying then that 30 meta 0 fitter Catalysts are free? If high sec ganking with cats = 0 cost, we still have a problem. Why wouldn't your rig it? Small hybrid weapons rigs are cheap as chips.
I never said 30 meta 0 fitted Catalysts were free, I never said that 120 meta 0 fitted noobships were either, in fact I stated categorically they cost around 1/2 million isk each fitted.
You need to inject reading comprehension into your life.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:18:00 -
[833] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Where does 1.5M come from? I'm presuming you're referring to Catalysts?
If so show me a viable gank Catalyst that can be fitted for 1.5 million isk, a basic meta 0 Catalyst is circa 2 million isk to fit and grossly inefficient at the job. We use t2 mostly so I would like to know where to get these cheap things from.
Killboards say otherwise -
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Mittani+Alexander+Gianturco#losses http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Moba+Ge#losses http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Proud+Brother#losses http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=rackarns#losses http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Alex%20Gianturco#losses http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Unfortunate+Uncle#losses http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Benchab+Mas#losses http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Rehtom+Lamina#losses
ect.
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:20:00 -
[834] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:That's basically free
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I never said 30 meta 0 fitted Catalysts were free, I never said that 120 meta 0 fitted noobships were either
I see.... |
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:21:00 -
[835] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.
You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.
I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink. If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca.
Even if they fitted cargohold expanders, it would not matter because then at least they had the choice to install other modules. Now they don't have a choice. My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.
Make reasonable choices. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13091
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:22:00 -
[836] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:That's basically free Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I never said 30 meta 0 fitted Catalysts were free, I never said that 120 meta 0 fitted noobships were either I see....
Basically free = so little as to be inconsequential, you really are a pedant aren't you?
I wrote:you can effectively gank an Obelisk for circa 1/2 million isk per ship. That's basically free. I've bolded the bit you conveniently edited out to support your pants on head argument.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7777
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:23:00 -
[837] - Quote
Looking through our records and our current stockpile of ships we use t2 and meta fits on most ships. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7777
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:24:00 -
[838] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Even if they fitted cargohold expanders, it would not matter because then at least they had the choice to install other modules. Now they don't have a choice.
I want to keep my big cargohold and not be forced to do twice as many trips because a handfull of fools were easily parted with their money. |
Dave Stark
3520
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:25:00 -
[839] - Quote
did he just link a bunch of the meta 0 catalysts being used for the isotope interdiction? which, has nothing to do with freighter ganking? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13091
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:26:00 -
[840] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:did he just link a bunch of the meta 0 catalysts being used for the isotope interdiction? which, has nothing to do with freighter ganking? Desperate times call for desperate measures, regardless of relevance.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7777
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:28:00 -
[841] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:did he just link a bunch of the meta 0 catalysts being used for the isotope interdiction? which, has nothing to do with freighter ganking?
Looks that way.
I have just looked through 18 freighters from last month and over 90% of the ships we used had t2 weapons and magstabs and were rigged. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:29:00 -
[842] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Basically free = so little as to be inconsequential, you really are a pedant aren't you?
I think basically free is a problem; you're one of the folks arguing that it's not basically free - remember? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:39:00 -
[843] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dave Stark wrote:did he just link a bunch of the meta 0 catalysts being used for the isotope interdiction? which, has nothing to do with freighter ganking? Looks that way. I have just looked through 18 freighters from last month and over 90% of the ships we used had t2 weapons and magstabs and were rigged.
Actually, I just grabbed the first few pilots from one of the already posted freighter kills.
Since your currently stated goal is to manipulate the market rather than make a profit off the actual kills, it doesn't seem like a fair indication to use your most recent losses. However, I just jumped on your killboard, cross-referenced the first Freighter kill, and it still looks like the majority aren't using t2 so... all signs point to you being full of **** unless you'd like to present something more concrete.
|
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:39:00 -
[844] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Even if they fitted cargohold expanders, it would not matter because then at least they had the choice to install other modules. Now they don't have a choice.
I want to keep my big cargohold and not be forced to do twice as many trips because a handfull of fools were easily parted with their money.
Are you saying you've never flown a freighter on autopilot ever?
If yes, do you always, at all times keep a ship one system ahead so you can web your freighter into warp?
I think not. People who lose their freighters are not necessarily fools, some are just unlucky. My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.
Make reasonable choices. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13091
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:42:00 -
[845] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Basically free = so little as to be inconsequential, you really are a pedant aren't you? I think basically free is a problem; you're one of the folks arguing that it's not basically free - remember? Stop taking things out of context, the 1/2 million isk fitted noobship was presented to prove that it was indeed possible to gank a freighter, for a minimal monetary investment, in highsec, with noobships, providing you had enough personnel to carry it off, as a counterpoint to your figure of 1600 + noobships that are actually free. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's a grossly inefficient use of personnel, 120 pilots would be much better employed ganking 4 freighters with Catalysts than 1 freighter with noobships. The only people I can see doing it are Goons, and even then it would be for shiggles and tears, because the return on personnel investment is shite.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:44:00 -
[846] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Actually, I just grabbed the first few pilots from one of the already posted freighter kills.
Since your currently stated goal is to manipulate the market rather than make a profit off the actual kills, it doesn't seem like a fair indication to use your most recent losses. However, I just jumped on your killboard, cross-referenced the first Freighter kill, and it still looks like the majority aren't using t2 so... all signs point to you being full of **** unless you'd like to present something more concrete.
Having looked through last months records we in fact used t2 fitted talos and brutix more than catalysts.
Could you link these suspect kills and I will further investigate. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:45:00 -
[847] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Are you saying you've never flown a freighter on autopilot ever?
If yes, do you always, at all times keep a ship one system ahead so you can web your freighter into warp?
I think not. People who lose their freighters are not necessarily fools, some are just unlucky.
I have never flown my freighter AFK nor have I ever stuffed ten billion into its hold. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:59:00 -
[848] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Having looked through last months records we in fact used t2 fitted talos and brutix more than catalysts.
Could you link these suspect kills and I will further investigate.
The stated assumption was catalysts so I looked at catalysts. Are you having trouble keeping numbers up for the interdiction?
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Context is important, so important that you should have actually clarified exactly what you meant at the time.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Stop taking things out of context,
Right....
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:the 1/2 million isk fitted noobship was an extreme case presented to prove that it was indeed possible to gank a freighter, for a minimal monetary investment, in highsec, with noobships, providing you had enough personnel to carry it off, as a counterpoint to your figure of 1600 + noobships that are actually free. Nothing more, nothing less.
Uh... that's nice? You don't counter an argument by adopting assumptions that are completely unrelated; it doesn't make any sense. Further, "minimal monetary investment" (not really minimal since the cats are the same price and require less manpower) and "basically free" are both problematic so I'm not sure why you're fixated on differentiating them.
Quote:The only people I can see doing it are Goons, and even then it would be for shiggles and tears, because the return on personnel investment is shite.
Making more money than a similar number of people running incursions with multi-billion isk ships while also getting to pvp and blow up shiny's doesn't sound like a bad personnel investment to me. Admittedly, I'm sure they have enough ISK from their new rental empire that they don't care.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:02:00 -
[849] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
The stated assumption was catalysts so I looked at catalysts. Are you having trouble keeping numbers up for the interdiction?
The interdiction has nothing at all to do with freighter ganking. Why would I count them in with our freighter records? |
baltec1
Bat Country
7778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:04:00 -
[850] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Making more money than a similar number of people running incursions with multi-billion isk ships while also getting to pvp and blow up shiny's doesn't sound like a bad personnel investment to me. Admittedly, I'm sure they have enough ISK from their new rental empire that they don't care.
We make less than running level 4s. |
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13091
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:11:00 -
[851] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Context is important, so important that you should have actually clarified exactly what you meant at the time. Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Stop taking things out of context, Jonah Gravenstein wrote:the 1/2 million isk fitted noobship was an extreme case presented to prove that it was indeed possible to gank a freighter, for a minimal monetary investment, in highsec, with noobships, providing you had enough personnel to carry it off, as a counterpoint to your figure of 1600 + noobships that are actually free. Nothing more, nothing less. Where did I not provide context? Please point it out to me, so that I can learn from it.
You said it required 1600+ noobships to gank a freighter in highsec, I said it did not, and provided evidence to back up my statement. It was a purely hypothetical scenario and an extreme case was used to illustrate it.
Minimal monetary investment - 1/2 million isk PER SHIP, or did you somehow miss that bit?
S Byerley wrote: Making more money than a similar number of people running incursions with multi-billion isk ships while also getting to pvp and blow up shiny's doesn't sound like a bad personnel investment to me. Admittedly, I'm sure they have enough ISK from their new rental empire that they don't care.
I'm fairly sure that 30 incursions runners make a fuckton more isk per hour than 30 suicide gankers do. If you have evidence to the contrary then present it.
Oh wait, you can't because you have none.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Dave Stark
3520
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:22:00 -
[852] - Quote
i like how the only one left defending dumb freighter pilots is an obvious troll. did the actual freighter pilots run out of legitimate, even if incorrect, arguments? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:27:00 -
[853] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Please point it out to me, so that I can learn from it.
No thanks; you're boring and lack the self-awareness to better yourself.
Quote:I'm fairly sure that 30 incursions runners make a fuckton more isk per hour than 30 suicide gankers do. If you have evidence to the contrary then present it.
Oh wait, you can't because you have none.
Current estimates for incursion income are ~60m-100m/hr depending on logistics and competition. Significantly less than both blitzing lvl 4's and estimates of ganking income. Unless baltec wants to be more forthcoming, best guess is that ganking is as good or better isk/hr. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13091
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:31:00 -
[854] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Please point it out to me, so that I can learn from it. No thanks; you're boring and lack the self-awareness to better yourself. You mean that you can't.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
baltec1
Bat Country
7778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:42:00 -
[855] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Current estimates for incursion income are ~60m-100m/hr depending on logistics and competition. Significantly less than both blitzing lvl 4's and estimates of ganking income. Unless baltec wants to be more forthcoming, best guess is that ganking is as good or better isk/hr.
Incursion income is beaten only by trade income.
Infact total incursion income in one month is last reported at 9.6 trillion. We don't even manage to kill a trillion let alone earn that in profits every month. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:52:00 -
[856] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Infact total incursion income in one month is last reported at 9.6 trillion. We don't even manage to kill a trillion let alone earn that in profits every month.
You also don't commit nearly as many people or do nearly as much grinding - nor are you the only people ganking. Since profession income is always compared primarily with isk/hr/person, your figure is worthless at best and a sad attempt at dishonest data manipulation at worst. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7778
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:57:00 -
[857] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Infact total incursion income in one month is last reported at 9.6 trillion. We don't even manage to kill a trillion let alone earn that in profits every month. You also don't commit nearly as many people or do nearly as much grinding - nor are you the only people ganking. Since profession income is always compared primarily with isk/hr/person, your figure is worthless at best and a sad attempt at dishonest data manipulation at worst.
If freighter ganking was a bigger earner than incursions then why do only 30 to 40 die on average a month? |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:20:00 -
[858] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Infact total incursion income in one month is last reported at 9.6 trillion. We don't even manage to kill a trillion let alone earn that in profits every month. You also don't commit nearly as many people or do nearly as much grinding - nor are you the only people ganking. Since profession income is always compared primarily with isk/hr/person, your figure is worthless at best and a sad attempt at dishonest data manipulation at worst. If freighter ganking was a bigger earner than incursions then why do only 30 to 40 die on average a month?
Not sure where/how you're getting 30-40 a month, but numbers are generally low because of decency and disinterest - two things you really ought not to balance a sandbox around.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7780
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:46:00 -
[859] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Not sure where/how you're getting 30-40 a month, but numbers are generally low because of decency and disinterest - two things you really ought not to balance a sandbox around.
I get it from the publicly available records.
Also that excuse for the low numbers isn't going to wash. The shear number of bots out there is proof enough of that. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:58:00 -
[860] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I get it from the publicly available records.
Ok? Your methodology and source are still relevant, thus the inquiry.
Quote:The shear number of bots out there is proof enough of that.
a. I'd love to see you pull out some figures for bots b. Your evaluation of the human psyche is pretty lacking if you think people equate automation with non-consensual pvp directed at a group providing them ubiquitous services with thin margins. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7781
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:15:00 -
[861] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:I get it from the publicly available records. Ok? Your methodology and source are still relevant, thus the inquiry. Quote:The shear number of bots out there is proof enough of that. a. I'd love to see you pull out some figures for bots b. Your evaluation of the human psyche is pretty lacking if you think people equate automation with non-consensual pvp directed at a group providing them ubiquitous services with thin margins.
CCP banned several thousand not too long ago when they hit a popular market bot tool.
How about your evidence for the human psyche in your whacky theory? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13095
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:16:00 -
[862] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: a. I'd love to see you pull out some figures for bots
A review of the team security fanfest panel, with numbers and graphs and things.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:34:00 -
[863] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:How about your evidence for the human psyche in your whacky theory?
I don't have faith in Psychology's ability to support such a complex comparison.
I think it's pretty obvious if you consider the matter thoughtfully though. For one thing, the former historically strengthens a community whereas the latter causes it significant injury. (please note: I'm referencing real life analogies here because they shape social adaptations, not because I'd like to introduce them to the larger discussion)
Those are figures on bans rather than bots - not nearly as interesting. Also, your chart showing 300 bots doesn't particularly support baltec's argument. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13098
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:59:00 -
[864] - Quote
Numbers banned is proportional to the amount of bots and RMTers, who are usually one and the same. Just from a quick glance it looks like CCP are banning an average of between 300 and 500 bots a month, that's 3600-6000 accounts a year. Those are fairly significant numbers.
From Team Security's own Dev Blogs the bot banning is a slow burn, to minimise the effects on the economy and thus legitimate players, we're unlikely to see a repeat of the "unholy rage" bans of 2009.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:09:00 -
[865] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Numbers banned is proportional the amount of bots and RMTers, who are usually one and the same. Just from a quick glance it looks like CCP are banning an average of between 300 and 500 bots a month, that's 3600-6000 bots a year. Those are fairly significant numbers.
A. You have no reason to think bans are proportional to bots, let alone present it as fact. Bans only give you a lower bound (which still assumes that most bans are correct, but that's probably accurate)
B. You're ignoring, or at least glossing over, the likelihood that botters create significantly more accounts and will replace banned ones with new ones. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7782
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:09:00 -
[866] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:How about your evidence for the human psyche in your whacky theory? I don't have faith in Psychology's ability to support such a complex comparison. I think it's pretty obvious if you consider the matter thoughtfully though. For one thing, the former historically strengthens a community whereas the latter causes it significant injury. (please note: I'm referencing real life analogies here because they shape social adaptations, not because I'd like to introduce them to the larger discussion)
Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13099
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:19:00 -
[867] - Quote
S Byerley wrote: A. You have no reason to think bans are proportional to bots, let alone present it as fact. Bans only give you a lower bound (which still assumes that most bans are correct, but that's probably accurate)
I may well be wrong to say that they're proportional, I'm man enough to admit that. I still say that the amount of bots banned implies that there are more that haven't been banned yet as evidence is being gathered.
Quote:B. You're ignoring, or at least glossing over, the likelihood that botters create significantly more accounts and will replace banned ones with new ones. Machine fingerprints, they're fairly unique, botters have been using a tool which alters them, it no longer works. Bots, especially ones that use python injection, throw obvious exceptions and errors that show up at CCPs end, email and credit card details are recorded. Over on Nosygamer there's quite a collection of tears collected from various botting forums complaining that CCP are now picking up their bots faster than ever. It's a war of attrition, and CCP are currently winning it, as evidenced by the increase in RMT isk prices.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:21:00 -
[868] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week.
If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7782
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:25:00 -
[869] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week. If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish.
People do this for the profit not the km. Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:35:00 -
[870] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it.
I think you underestimate the difficulty of organizing thirty people willing to be dickish on a regular basis in return for marginally above average monetary returns.
I'm not going out of my way to insult you (I think morality is relative personally), but I'm under the impression that your organization's mission statement makes it significantly easier. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7782
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:38:00 -
[871] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it. I think you underestimate the difficulty of organizing thirty people willing to be dickish on a regular basis in return for marginally above average monetary returns. I'm not going out of my way to insult you (I think morality is relative personally), but I'm under the impression that your organization's mission statement makes it significantly easier.
There are tens of thousands of corps with the manpower and ability to work together. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
188
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:39:00 -
[872] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week. If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish.
There is no moral tradeoff. It's an Internet spaceship game. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:51:00 -
[873] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it. I think you underestimate the difficulty of organizing thirty people willing to be dickish on a regular basis in return for marginally above average monetary returns. I'm not going out of my way to insult you (I think morality is relative personally), but I'm under the impression that your organization's mission statement makes it significantly easier. There are tens of thousands of corps with the manpower and ability to work together.
Please note the additional requirements
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:There is no moral tradeoff. It's an Internet spaceship game.
You can't have effective organizations without morality; you'd have trouble arguing that Eve is completely devoid of it. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7784
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:03:00 -
[874] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Please note the additional requirements
This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:08:00 -
[875] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people.
Blowing people up because they're trying to blow you up, are competing for resources, are infringing on your territory, ect. is not particularly dickish. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7784
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:09:00 -
[876] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people. Blowing people up because they're trying to blow you up, are competing for resources, are infringing on your territory, ect. is not particularly dickish.
Neither is piracy. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:13:00 -
[877] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people. Blowing people up because they're trying to blow you up, are competing for resources, are infringing on your territory, ect. is not particularly dickish. Neither is piracy.
Depends on the piracy; blowing up people who make your life easier is pretty dickish - by social evolution standards. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7788
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:18:00 -
[878] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
Depends on the piracy; blowing up people who make your life easier is pretty dickish - by social evolution standards.
There is only one kind of piracy. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15487
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:19:00 -
[879] - Quote
It's like watching a Moth continually hitting a light bulb, he simply can't help himself.
Oh and our house hold has stopped playing chess, we deplore the whole regicide angle of that game. Oh the humanity.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13114
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:24:00 -
[880] - Quote
Mag's wrote:It's like watching a Moth continually hitting a light bulb, he simply can't help himself.
Oh and our house hold has stopped playing chess, we deplore the whole regicide angle of that game. Oh the humanity. If you think he's amusing wait until Infinity Ziona starts posting again
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
|
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:50:00 -
[881] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Mag's wrote:It's like watching a Moth continually hitting a light bulb, he simply can't help himself.
Oh and our house hold has stopped playing chess, we deplore the whole regicide angle of that game. Oh the humanity. If you think he's amusing wait until Infinity Ziona starts posting again
That tendency to do the exact thing you're ridiculing comes back to the self-awareness we talked about earlier. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13114
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 01:55:00 -
[882] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Mag's wrote:It's like watching a Moth continually hitting a light bulb, he simply can't help himself.
Oh and our house hold has stopped playing chess, we deplore the whole regicide angle of that game. Oh the humanity. If you think he's amusing wait until Infinity Ziona starts posting again That tendency to do the exact same thing you're ridiculing comes back to the self-awareness we talked about earlier. The differences between you and I? I actually have a clue, and I'm quite capable of self ridicule, I do it well.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 02:15:00 -
[883] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The differences between you and I? I actually have a clue, and I'm quite capable of self ridicule, I do it well.
There's really no way to interpret it as self-degradation (which is perfectly fine btw) rather than hypocrisy. I supposed it could fit into an overarching role-play of a hypocrite, but that's outside my frame of reference.
|
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1784
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:19:00 -
[884] - Quote
S Bro why did you ignore 99% of the points I made in an earlier post? The (possibly inaccurate) stat about ganking wasn't really relevant to the rest of what I said, so why did you ignore everything else in the post?
Was it because you couldn't refute any of the points?
Anyway, I will admit that statement was inaccurate - CCP have said mining barge suicide ganks are at an all time low, not suicide ganks in general or specifically freighter ganks. However, with only 40 happening per month (amongst half a million freighter runs happening) it is safe to say that freighter ganking is an extremely uncommon event |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15489
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 10:51:00 -
[885] - Quote
Which leads to the question. If it's so easy and such a money spinner, why aren't more doing it?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
770
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:19:00 -
[886] - Quote
not this again...
just go through low sec. no suicide gankers in low sec There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Biglenny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 13:44:00 -
[887] - Quote
Just give me 1 Mid slot and 1 low slot and enough PG and CPU to fit a DC2 and a 100mn MWD. Freighters would be safe from these skill less newb gankers. Ganking in high sec is for those to afraid to come to low and fight. Generally there coward Null bears who hide in there SOV ISK faucets and come to high to blow up there epeens by ganking helpless freighter pilots.
See Goons for more information... |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:04:00 -
[888] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Cost is a product of balance, not a factor in it. If one ships requires vastly more material of the same type than another, one might rightly conclude that the price is not entirely driven by balance?
Price is driven by cost. Balance is a meta for industry folks when assigning a price to the goods they crafted based on the cost of their own pocket. Minerals I mine are free and all that.
Cost of a ship has nothing to do with it's performance since the market doesn't care. The market cares how many people want the ship and how many want what volume.... that determines price.
Not many industrials will sell a product for less than what it cost them to make.
A specific ship can be in demand for a variety of reasons, and regardless of that reason the demand can determine a better price, but not a better cost as it will still cost the same to create that ship.
The ability to gank a freighter, would create a higher demand for thaty ship, but just because it is in a higher demand now, doesn't mean that it changes the amount of isk it takes to create one(cost). Only how much you can sell it for(profit).
That profit margin does not determine how well the ship will perform. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:05:00 -
[889] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Are you saying you've never flown a freighter on autopilot ever?
If yes, do you always, at all times keep a ship one system ahead so you can web your freighter into warp?
I think not. People who lose their freighters are not necessarily fools, some are just unlucky.
I have never flown my freighter AFK nor have I ever stuffed ten billion into its hold.
So what? You dont need to fly your freighter afk.
You dont need to fly it filled with goods.
You fail to understand that alot of people lose empty freighters to people who just want to see tears in local.
You could have been one of those victims, so stop trash talking people who lost theirs u fool. My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.
Make reasonable choices. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1787
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:12:00 -
[890] - Quote
Biglenny wrote:Just give me 1 Mid slot and 1 low slot and enough PG and CPU to fit a DC2 and a 100mn MWD. Freighters would be safe from these skill less newb gankers. Ganking in high sec is for those to afraid to come to low and fight. Generally there coward Null bears who hide in there SOV ISK faucets and come to high to blow up there epeens by ganking helpless freighter pilots.
See Goons for more information...
If they're so "skill less" and such "newbs" why do you need CCP to mechanically protect you from them? It says a lot about what you think of yourself if you're screaming that you are losing to what you claim to be terrible, useless players.
Also the garbage about lowsec is just that: garbage. It's classic "play the way I want you to play" nonsense, and ignores the fact that targets are targets no matter where they are. Highsec is not your own safe little instance, friend.
hope this helps |
|
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
190
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:27:00 -
[891] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote:You fail to understand that alot of people lose empty freighters to people who just want to see tears in local.
[citation needed] |
Biglenny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 14:34:00 -
[892] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Biglenny wrote:Just give me 1 Mid slot and 1 low slot and enough PG and CPU to fit a DC2 and a 100mn MWD. Freighters would be safe from these skill less newb gankers. Ganking in high sec is for those to afraid to come to low and fight. Generally there coward Null bears who hide in there SOV ISK faucets and come to high to blow up there epeens by ganking helpless freighter pilots.
See Goons for more information... If they're so "skill less" and such "newbs" why do you need CCP to mechanically protect you from them? It says a lot about what you think of yourself if you're screaming that you are losing to what you claim to be terrible, useless players. Also the garbage about lowsec is just that: garbage. It's classic "play the way I want you to play" nonsense, and ignores the fact that targets are targets no matter where they are. Highsec is not your own safe little instance, friend. hope this helps
Aye because it takes such skill to push a slow aligning slow warping ship around while a bunch of disposable 4 week old dessie pilots lock you up and pop you... No amount of skill can make a freighter align and warp fast enough to keep this from happening. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:15:00 -
[893] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:This might be a valid differentiating factor if T1 ships weren't all built out of, more or less, the same material; and if availability and yield weren't also determined by CCP. The materials required for different ships depend to a great extent on which race they belong to, and what ores and minerals are associated with their home regions. Quote:If you like: is material cost a factor in balance? No. In the context of this thread, regards to freighter ganking, yes it is. It directly relates to ganking ability, frequency and profitability. If catalysts cost 100 million each because material costs to build them was increased there would not be catalysts ganking. Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease.
The frequency of which catalysts were used would decrease sure... but not necessarily the act of ganking.
Remember, other ships did used to be used to perform the same duty as the almighty catalyst is used now.
It's just a fine tuning to make MORE money at it. The same 15bil loot pinata would be ganked by 15 brutix in the same fashion as 30 catalysts were used.
The 15bil freighter is what makes it attractive to be ganked, not the cost of the 15 brutix versus 30 cats. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:18:00 -
[894] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the next best thing, cruisers cost 5 x more (due to material costs) ganking freighters overall would be more expensive and overall ganks on freighters would likely decrease. Only temporarily until people train up to fly a Brutix or Talos. Which is why freighters need a HP buff or tank fitting ability. To drive up the cost of ganking to a point it was originally at, profitable to gank a pi+¦ata but not an empty freighter or just carrying a typical cargo.
That's determined by the cargo hold of the freighter... perhaps a cargo hold nerf is where you should be aiming at. Limit the capacity, help limit the value, help limit the # of ganks.
Doesn't matter if it takes me a fleet of 30 cats, 15 brutix or 5 oracles or 5 battleships...
you still have that 15bil in your hold, and I still want it. Even if I only make 1.3bil instead of 1.5mil. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:37:00 -
[895] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:S Byerley wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You might want to add sarcasm tags Domanique, S Byerley will take your post as proof that freighters die every 20 minutes, regardless of the facts. Oh look Your list of things to learn from this thread now consists of
- the meaning of the word "average"
- what a strawman argument is
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes. If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description. if it's common to gank a freighter every 20 mins, that means it's common for a freighter to die every 20 mins. i don't think you understand how words work.
Context, I think, is a valuable word here in this debate. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:45:00 -
[896] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month?
Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters).
I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
190
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 15:48:00 -
[897] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month? Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters). I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up.
Because wardecs are irrelevant to the discussion. You could bake a DCII into the hull and they would still trivially die to a legal target. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7795
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:02:00 -
[898] - Quote
Mycool Jahksn wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mycool Jahksn wrote:
Are you saying you've never flown a freighter on autopilot ever?
If yes, do you always, at all times keep a ship one system ahead so you can web your freighter into warp?
I think not. People who lose their freighters are not necessarily fools, some are just unlucky.
I have never flown my freighter AFK nor have I ever stuffed ten billion into its hold. So what? You dont need to fly your freighter afk. You dont need to fly it filled with goods. You fail to understand that alot of people lose empty freighters to people who just want to see tears in local. You could have been one of those victims, so stop trash talking people who lost theirs u fool.
Nobody ganks freighters just for lulz. Its done for profit. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7795
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:05:00 -
[899] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month? Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters). I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up.
Wardecs are not suicide ganks and thus dont count as suicide ganks |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:07:00 -
[900] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact. baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person. You'll have to fogive me if that gets a little confusing.
In one tick. The day's count could have been much higher still. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:09:00 -
[901] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact. baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person. You'll have to fogive me if that gets a little confusing. Suicide ganking isn't a taxable activity. I see where you're going wrong here, you don't understand game mechanics.
baltec did say they had a 3bil tax to wallet and their tax rate was 5%...
Whether you guys donate a portion of your proceeds to a specific wallet or not is not really the argument is it? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7795
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:12:00 -
[902] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact. baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person. You'll have to fogive me if that gets a little confusing. Suicide ganking isn't a taxable activity. I see where you're going wrong here, you don't understand game mechanics. baltec did say they had a 3bil tax to wallet and their tax rate was 5%... Whether you guys donate a portion of your proceeds to a specific wallet or not is not really the argument is it?
That was from ratting with a fleet.
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:33:00 -
[903] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
That contradicts your answers. Or is that to be seen as an agreement from you?
Noobships are free, and come armed. In sufficient numbers, they can be used to kill anything in the game, from other noobships to titans. Considering that cost is apparently now a balance factor, this makes the noobship the most OP and unbalanced item in the entire game.
Yes. Hence the contradiction. I underlined both parts of the original quote that stemmed my question (even thought hat was 20 pages ago jesus you guys are busy). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:35:00 -
[904] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:i go out for dinner and you guys fill 4 pages. good job.
and oh **** murk is posting, this is going nowhere good.
That already started with you and your "im not social" discussion back in the single digit pages.
Don't start a fight you have no hope of winning sir. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:35:00 -
[905] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Explain why isk-tanking is a good idea? If freighters were to get this, why not every other ship in the game? Because the downside of ganking in high sec is supposed to be the cost? Can you name another ship that has alt corporations dedicated to ganking one indiscriminately every ~20 minutes? Can you name an alt corporation that actually does this, because I don't know of any. Code Logistics? They don't even indiscriminately gank a barge every 20 minutes.
If there were more orcas to be found they would. (Although that's industrial and you could pidgeon hole it... but meh whatever). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:36:00 -
[906] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
The cargohold of a freighter would have to be nerfed by a certain percentage to make up for every low slot or rig slot that it gained. To haul iHubs & Station egg's the freighter pilot would have to fit cargohold expanders. Tippia did all of the math on this awhile back, he might post it if you ask nicely.
What about mids? Or specific sized modules for those technically not a capital freighter? What about adding something instead of just taking away? There's plenty of battleship and capital modules that just dont fit to any ship and also have serious penalties when fitted to other ships not meant for those modules. No need to have to change the hull itself. Sure, but since a freighter, like an Orca, tanks with it's structure...
So you'd be okay with the changes? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Ragnen Delent
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:50:00 -
[907] - Quote
Do bad posters work in shifts or something, holy hell. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7795
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:54:00 -
[908] - Quote
Ragnen Delent wrote:Do bad posters work in shifts or something, holy hell.
Im going with yes. |
Dave Stark
3545
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:01:00 -
[909] - Quote
it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him? |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:25:00 -
[910] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Are you serious? How many 2's into 100? 50 right. For each 2 you have 100%. 50 x 100 = 5000.
You do know how percentages work right? 1 is 1% of 100, ergo 2 is 2% of 100 Using your figures : 1,000,000 is 1% of 100,000,000, ergo 2,000,000 is 2% of 100,000,000 100-2=98 therefore it's a 98% reduction in the cost per pilot required to gank a freighter per-+cent also per cent (pr-snt) adv. Out of each hundred; per hundred. If I buy something for -ú2 and sell it for -ú100 I haven't made a 5000% profit, I've made an 98% profit.
Uh what? No. Reread that.
The % would be of the 2 pound not the 100 pound.
You did it backwards. 2 is 98% of 100.
100 is 5000% of 2. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:29:00 -
[911] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. She's not, In my last job I spent 4 years doing profit margin calculations all day. Ziona is confusing Markup with Profit Margin. Cost = 2 Sell = 4 Markup = 100% Margin = 50% Very different calculations.
100% of 100% is the same.
When you buy something for 2 and sell it for 4, that's 100% profit.
Here's a little bit of storytime... you have $2. You buy a soda. Someone wants your soda really really really bad. You sell it for 4. You have tour 2 back. 100% of 2 is 2. 2 plus 2 is 4.
Ergo, you bought a 2 dollar soda and made 100% profit selling it for 2.
If you use it to buy ANOTHER soda to repeat the process, you use 50% of your profit (margin) to continue to make 100% profits at 50% costs of you profits which would be a 50% margin.
Single event is by far different than what you're trying to prove.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:33:00 -
[912] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: No need, simple to not allow capitals to be put into a hold or not allow them to be assembled in high, or not allow freighters with capital ships in hold to enter high sec or more fun to have customs fine or nuke freighters with banned caps inside... your protestation is just an excuse to not nerf your cash cow.
why should ccp **** up all the code they have to fix.... erm, nothing?
You mean streamline what they already set by rules?
Because it's their rules. There did used to be a time you COULD have capitals in highsec. When they CHANGED that ability they did not finish their code. And you can still have grandfathered capitals in highsec.
So, question time... if fixing a freighter by allowing it to have fitting mods would allow a freighter to carry a capital, what would stop that freighter from actually doing it? I mean you can carry other ships, so that's a mechanic put in place right?
So, since CCP changed the rules, and did not finish the coding, you're damned right CCP should fix their ****** up code. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:34:00 -
[913] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it's actually a sad moment when ziona is right. She's not, In my last job I spent 4 years doing profit margin calculations all day. Ziona is confusing Markup with Profit Margin. Cost = 2 Sell = 4 Markup = 100% Margin = 50% Very different calculations. Maybe an indication why you don't have that job anymore. Actually I don't have the job anymore because the company no longer trades in the UK. I was using margins to demonstrate that a reduction in cost from 100,000,000 to 2,000,000 is not a 5000% reduction in cost. A percentage is expressed as a part of 100. The clue is in the word percent; per (a part) and cent (100). http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/financial/margin-calculator.php try using the figures of 2 as cost and 4 as sell and then tell me that my figure of a 50% margin is wrong. Try it with the cost as 2 and the sell as 100 as well. It returns a 98% profit, 4900% markup.
I think you have %s and $s messed up a bit dude. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:36:00 -
[914] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him?
I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll.
You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Psychoactive Stimulant
TinklePee
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:51:00 -
[915] - Quote
These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.
It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?
It'd sound like this:
"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?" "My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"
The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:55:00 -
[916] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Also I want to see an answer to this question that no anti-freighter ganking zealot has answered yet. Mallak Azaria wrote:If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it?
There are more people who are ganking industrials and freighters.. There are people who wardec null corps specifically to gank their industrials in highsec. They just use the wardec mechanic to further help their cause so Concord is not involved.
Go look in C&P for yourself. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:06:00 -
[917] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:people keep mistaking me for some one polite, and nice. Not really; I do keep overestimating your reading comprehension though. i see you've resulted to personal insults rather than actually discussing the topic at hand [not that you knew what that was]. i think that says it all, really.
Indeed. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7797
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:06:00 -
[918] - Quote
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.
It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?
It'd sound like this:
"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?" "My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"
The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here.
We would simply adapt like we always do and the "just one more nerf" mob will start demanding we be nerfed again within a month. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:10:00 -
[919] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:S Byerley wrote:Dave Stark wrote:when it takes an amount of players in double figures to gank a freighter, is it really unreasonable to expect a freighter to bring less than half of that amount to reduce the chance they get ganked? Yes. Also pretty sure you can do the gank with ~4 mid-end PCs. Quote:as i pointed out earlier, if you bring an equal number of t1 logi as they bring meta 0 catalysts you can almost out rep all of their dps. That sounds like a pretty terrible investment. what type of PC you have is irrelevant. also, you thinking it's unreasonable to have a fleet of half the size in order to not be a free kill is the reason why freighters shouldn't be changed. you're unwilling to put in effort to protect yourself and expect ccp to do it for you. if we can go to the effort of forming up a fleet to shoot you, it's your own fault for not forming up a fleet to stop us.
You have to admit, that exploiting one mechanic to counter another mechanic being exploited isn't a really strong argument for playing the game normally. (Don't be scared of the "exploit" boogeyman word). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:14:00 -
[920] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:And it was so profitable, too!
It was the reason it was ganked. Bat Country only ganks for profit remember. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1322
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:17:00 -
[921] - Quote
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.
It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?
It'd sound like this:
"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?" "My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"
The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here.
I like this post. It's a pleasant fiction, kind of like a fairy tale.
Now let's talk about what happens in reality.
Freighter Boy sees that he can now fit a DCII, and squeals with delight at this new buff. However, instead of just fitting the DCII, and becoming even less profitable to gank, Freighter Boy crams even more valuable **** into his hold. Because this is what the greedy, stupid freighter pilots do.
The gankers just add a Talos or two to their catalyst gang, and enjoy an even richer payday.*
Thus is the status quo preserved.
*A Talos or two is hyperbole, because it would take a handful once you buff all that structure. But the fact remains that the status quo would not change. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:17:00 -
[922] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Four out of several hundred, you're on a roll here. Now all you need to do is prove that we kill a freighter every 20 minutes to fully regain your credibility.
He did dispute your claims by 400% though... so far =P "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:22:00 -
[923] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.
DPS is DPS, regardless of the source. You can gank a freighter with a fleet of noobships, if you want. And they cost exactly nothing. Tippia did the math a while back, you can kill a Titan with noobships given enough numbers and time.
I'm still not sure an unreinforced server would allow that to be honest. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1322
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:25:00 -
[924] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote: I'm still not sure an unreinforced server would allow that to be honest.
CCP's hardware problems don't negate the fact that given enough free noobships, you could kill a titan with them, at absolutely zero cost for materials. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7797
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:44:00 -
[925] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:And it was so profitable, too! It was the reason it was ganked. Bat Country only ganks for profit remember.
We got several billion from that one. Most of the double wrapped frdighters drop good stuff. |
Dave Stark
3545
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:49:00 -
[926] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him? I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll. You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me. And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy.
oh please, you troll far more than i ever have.
better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative? |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:51:00 -
[927] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week. If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish. People do this for the profit not the km. Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it.
But it's less than incursions and L4 incomes... "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 18:54:00 -
[928] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
Please note the additional requirements
This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people.
Hence the wardec aspect of preying on the stupidity of trying to 'work" during a wardec and the inherent sillyness of those wardecs. Especially when used to prey on industrials/miners and other non combat activities.
I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7799
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:11:00 -
[929] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week. If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish. People do this for the profit not the km. Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it. But it's less than incursions and L4 incomes...
Yes it is. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7799
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:12:00 -
[930] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
Please note the additional requirements
This is a pvp focused game. Thousands of corps have no issue with blowing up other people. Hence the wardec aspect of preying on the stupidity of trying to 'work" during a wardec and the inherent sillyness of those wardecs. Especially when used to prey on industrials/miners and other non combat activities. I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.
Nope. Only 30 to 40 get ganked per month. |
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1323
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:26:00 -
[931] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.
What makes you so sure?
Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:31:00 -
[932] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month? Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters). I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up. Because wardecs are irrelevant to the discussion. You could bake a DCII into the hull and they would still trivially die to a legal target.
If we are talking about the balancing of freighters in regards to the # of destroyers and the ehp of a freighter hull, it is indeed relevant.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:32:00 -
[933] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month? Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters). I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up. Wardecs are not suicide ganks and thus dont count as suicide ganks
Freighters are freighters, so they count as freighters. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:32:00 -
[934] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:S Byerley wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Except we don't actually make that much isk from ganking freighters. You seem to be ignoring this fact. baltec claimed that 15+ people made 60b in one day... then claimed that figure matched up with your 2m/hour/person. You'll have to fogive me if that gets a little confusing. Suicide ganking isn't a taxable activity. I see where you're going wrong here, you don't understand game mechanics. baltec did say they had a 3bil tax to wallet and their tax rate was 5%... Whether you guys donate a portion of your proceeds to a specific wallet or not is not really the argument is it? That was from ratting with a fleet.
/shrug "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:33:00 -
[935] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:
I said that, while working, it's common to gank a freighter every 20 minutes on average. You're interpreting my position to mean that a freighter dies every 20 minutes.
If your definition of straw man varies from the above, perhaps you can grace me with a description.
So why is it that only 30 to 40 get killed a month? Are you counting the total number destroyed or just the ones you yourself kill? I've seen war reports with higher numbers (and yes, plenty of wardecs are enabled simply to destroy freighters). I get this thread is based on ganks with no wardecs, flags, etc... but it looks like facts are also getting twisted around to suit theories so it may be worth bringing that up. Wardecs are not suicide ganks and thus dont count as suicide ganks Freighters are freighters, so they count as freighters.
but freighters that don't die to suicide ganks are irrelevant to the discussion in this thread. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:35:00 -
[936] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.
It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?
It'd sound like this:
"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?" "My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"
The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here. I like this post. It's a pleasant fiction, kind of like a fairy tale. Now let's talk about what happens in reality. Freighter Boy sees that he can now fit a DCII, and squeals with delight at this new buff. However, instead of just fitting the DCII, and becoming even less profitable to gank, Freighter Boy crams even more valuable **** into his hold. Because this is what the greedy, stupid freighter pilots do. The gankers just add a Talos or two to their catalyst gang, and enjoy an even richer payday.* Thus is the status quo preserved. *A Talos or two is hyperbole, because it would take a handful once you buff all that structure. But the fact remains that the status quo would not change.
So change a 20 catalyst fleet to.... what... 37 of them?
That would have a serious impact on suicide ganking freighters. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:36:00 -
[937] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote: I'm still not sure an unreinforced server would allow that to be honest.
CCP's hardware problems don't negate the fact that given enough free noobships, you could kill a titan with them, at absolutely zero cost for materials.
Validity.
Given enough ships into a system it matters when Concord is involved and you cannot coordinate an alpha strike correctly.
"Could" being the relative term. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:37:00 -
[938] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:And it was so profitable, too! It was the reason it was ganked. Bat Country only ganks for profit remember. We got several billion from that one. Most of the double wrapped frdighters drop good stuff.
I do not dispute it =P "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:38:00 -
[939] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him? I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll. You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me. And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy. oh please, you troll far more than i ever have. better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative?
You've trolled in this thread more than I have in the last week.
Take your "oh please" elsewhere.
Not a double negative, a double entendre moreso. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:39:00 -
[940] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:These ******** goon bitches would cry so hard if a freighter could fit a damage control. I'm for this idea just to see these gankers cry.
It's nice enough seeing freighter pilots cry (srsly... 2 webs and you instawarp, you get no love either), don't get me wrong. But wouldnt' it be nice to see these gankers cry in forums?
It'd sound like this:
"CCP, why'd you nerf ganking?" "My epeen is broken!!! Unnerf ganking!"
The gankers can call frieghter pilots names all day, but you all know that if a freighter could fit a damage control, you'd see ganker tears like Niagra in here. I like this post. It's a pleasant fiction, kind of like a fairy tale. Now let's talk about what happens in reality. Freighter Boy sees that he can now fit a DCII, and squeals with delight at this new buff. However, instead of just fitting the DCII, and becoming even less profitable to gank, Freighter Boy crams even more valuable **** into his hold. Because this is what the greedy, stupid freighter pilots do. The gankers just add a Talos or two to their catalyst gang, and enjoy an even richer payday.* Thus is the status quo preserved. *A Talos or two is hyperbole, because it would take a handful once you buff all that structure. But the fact remains that the status quo would not change. So change a 20 catalyst fleet to.... what... 37 of them? That would have a serious impact on suicide ganking freighters.
We have already used 40 on freighters before now. |
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:40:00 -
[941] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him? I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll. You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me. And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy. oh please, you troll far more than i ever have. better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative? You've trolled in this thread more than I have in the last week. Take your "oh please" elsewhere. Not a double negative, a double entendre moreso.
you heard it here first folks; raising legitimate points is trolling. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:48:00 -
[942] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:S Byerley wrote:baltec1 wrote:Still stands that if ganking freighters was easy and massively profitable there would be more than 40 getting ganked a week. If you accept my assertion, then it only stands that organizations comfortable with the moral tradeoff would participate. (which, AFAIK, is pretty accuracte). However, those likely to make the tradeoff are also less likely to be interested in the profit, making it hard to distinguish. People do this for the profit not the km. Again, if it was as easy and profitable as you seem to think it is then there would be a lot more people doing it. But it's less than incursions and L4 incomes... Yes it is.
Well, I think a statement like that is technically disengenuous as the 2 cannot compare. Suicide ganking would obviously have a huge gap in regards to frequency as well as gained loot not to mention the success rate. With all the time to prepare and get things rolling, a straight comparison would be a comparison of setup.
For instance... you cannot guarantee you can hit the ground rolling in either scenario. If you use the armor or shield channel for incursions, you will see some fleets literally take hours to form up, let alone the random sorting our the fleet requirements from the +/- of logi, t3, bs etc.
That could, compare to the research scouting of finding a loot pinata to smash. But I hardly doubt it.
I'm going to assume, with a chance of being wrong, you are comparing a 5bil payday from 1 kill that took 5 hours to organize, to an incursion fleet that's been "raiding" for 5 hours nonstop and counting all that cool LP(Loot fairy aside).
L4s are pretty constant as well in regards to income, and the levels of having solo versus fleet versus small gang is so varied, I don't think the comparison fits.
Apples are not oranges. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:49:00 -
[943] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.
What makes you so sure? Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us.
Well, war reports for one. We are talking about ways to kill a freighter. Suicide ganks are not the only way to kill one. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:50:00 -
[944] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
but freighters that don't die to suicide ganks are irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.
Why? This thread is talking about freighters and jump freighters. This is not a thread about suicide ganking. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:51:00 -
[945] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:it wouldn't be so bad, but murk is an obvious and self confessed forum troll. why do people even bother replying to him? I said I have trolled people. And listed the reasons for doing it. Doesn't mean I AM a troll. You focus on too many incorrect things sir. By post, you troll far more than me. And as an edit, it would be better without people like you NOT contributing to the thread. Blame grr goons for that one, it's just too easy. oh please, you troll far more than i ever have. better without people like me not posting... is that a double negative? You've trolled in this thread more than I have in the last week. Take your "oh please" elsewhere. Not a double negative, a double entendre moreso. you heard it here first folks; raising legitimate points is trolling.
So you confirm I make valid points. Thank you. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1323
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:51:00 -
[946] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.
What makes you so sure? Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us. Well, war reports for one. We are talking about ways to kill a freighter. Suicide ganks are not the only way to kill one.
Actually, 'we' are discussing only suicide ganks of freighters. No one knows what the hell you're discussing. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:52:00 -
[947] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So you confirm I make valid points. Thank you.
we were talking about me, not you. nobody has any interest in talking about you. |
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:53:00 -
[948] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
but freighters that don't die to suicide ganks are irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.
Why? This thread is talking about freighters and jump freighters. This is not a thread about suicide ganking.
yes it is. read the OP, it's about 3 paragraphs of tears about suicide gankers ganking freighters and jfs.
this is why you're an obvious troll. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1323
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:53:00 -
[949] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. ...SNIP FOR BREVITY... Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
Even OP was originally discussing high sec suicide ganking. So why are you trying to take the thread off topic? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:55:00 -
[950] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
I still don't think only 30-40 freighters are getting killed a month. I'm sure it's a bit more.
What makes you so sure? Certainly, you must have access to some sort of metrics you could share with us. Well, war reports for one. We are talking about ways to kill a freighter. Suicide ganks are not the only way to kill one. Actually, 'we' are discussing only suicide ganks of freighters. No one knows what the hell you're discussing.
That's awesome. Maybe we should go back to the beginning of the thread.
I'll start. First sentence. "Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec.".
Now, I'll post the rest, for posterity.
"Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself."
Please pay special attention to the last sentence. I'll underline it for you.
Strange isn't it... the OP actually saying you SHOULD be able to suicide gank, whereas you are talking about how we SHOULD be able to... suicide gank?
Fascinating. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:56:00 -
[951] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So you confirm I make valid points. Thank you. we were talking about me, not you. nobody has any interest in talking about you.
I beg to differ, and can quote you to the contrary. I'm not the one who mentioned you in this thread.
And who is this "we"? Weren't you boasting about being antisocial earlier? (I told you not to pick a fight you couldn't win dumbfuck). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:57:00 -
[952] - Quote
So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:58:00 -
[953] - Quote
It's almost like the OP is talking about the validity of destroyers in this game and their output versus the inability of the freighter to tank them.
I'm sorry valid points and being in a discussion on point is considered being an "obvious troll" to you Dave. Perhaps you should work on being a bit more socialable. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:59:00 -
[954] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So you confirm I make valid points. Thank you. we were talking about me, not you. nobody has any interest in talking about you. I beg to differ, and can quote you to the contrary. I'm not the one who mentioned you in this thread. And who is this "we"? Weren't you boasting about being antisocial earlier? (I told you not to pick a fight you couldn't win dumbfuck).
oh look, personal attacks. isn't there one of those unwritten rules that when you make a personal attack you've pretty much already lost the argument?
you're losing your touch murk, you used to be a half decent troll. sad to see you've slipped. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:59:00 -
[955] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.
About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec.
Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1324
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:00:00 -
[956] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread.
Pretty much. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:00:00 -
[957] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So you confirm I make valid points. Thank you. we were talking about me, not you. nobody has any interest in talking about you. I beg to differ, and can quote you to the contrary. I'm not the one who mentioned you in this thread. And who is this "we"? Weren't you boasting about being antisocial earlier? (I told you not to pick a fight you couldn't win dumbfuck). oh look, personal attacks. isn't there one of those unwritten rules that when you make a personal attack you've pretty much already lost the argument? you're losing your touch murk, you used to be a half decent troll. sad to see you've slipped.
If you truly feel offended by me I apologize. I was only commented on your caliber of posting. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1324
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:01:00 -
[958] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec. Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.
I think you should re-read that post to make sure. It's pretty obvious what they're talking about. Being killed as a vaild target under wardec is not getting ganked. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:01:00 -
[959] - Quote
"Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec."
This looks like the actual topic of this thread. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:01:00 -
[960] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:So you confirm I make valid points. Thank you. we were talking about me, not you. nobody has any interest in talking about you. I beg to differ, and can quote you to the contrary. I'm not the one who mentioned you in this thread. And who is this "we"? Weren't you boasting about being antisocial earlier? (I told you not to pick a fight you couldn't win dumbfuck). oh look, personal attacks. isn't there one of those unwritten rules that when you make a personal attack you've pretty much already lost the argument? you're losing your touch murk, you used to be a half decent troll. sad to see you've slipped. If you truly feel offended by me I apologize. I was only commented on your caliber of posting.
so not only do you have to resort to personal attacks, you're not even discussing the topic of the thread. c'mon murk, you're better than this. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:02:00 -
[961] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec. Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. I think you should re-read that post to make sure. It's pretty obvious what they're talking about. Being killed as a vaild target under wardec is not getting ganked.
Why isn't it? You don't need to die to Concord to kill a freighter (which is unnarmed anyways).
You only need superior numbers to gank something.
And I assure, I have reread the thread. Perhaps you should as well.
You guys spent more time mudslinging than actually discussing the topic. Stay on point. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:03:00 -
[962] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
so not only do you have to resort to personal attacks, you're not even discussing the topic of the thread. c'mon murk, you're better than this.
Blatant disregard for the written word shows you are not paying attention sir.
My posts are indeed contributing to the thread; it's bringing it back on track. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:04:00 -
[963] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
so not only do you have to resort to personal attacks, you're not even discussing the topic of the thread. c'mon murk, you're better than this.
Blatant disregard for the written word shows you are not paying attention sir. My posts are indeed contributing to the thread; it's bringing it back on track.
the only contribution you've provided since you started posting is bumping the thread.
not to mention you've decided to join the party after all of the points have been beaten more than a dead horse. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:09:00 -
[964] - Quote
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
Ganking should be harder if you want to put value in nullsec alliances depending on the same highsec they so abhor. The abusing on the current game mechanics shows it is not "working as intended" since it is flawed from the start. The costs of corps, alliances, and coalitions should have a dynamic slope.
Whereas this might be better suited for a F&I discussion about npc corps and the validity of anyone being able to fly any ship... npc corp access to other ships should be looked at or even find a way to restrict a way for freighters to be classified as capital ships if they are to remain in highsec, or kick them out of highsec with the rest of the capitals.
This is deemed allowed by CCP for players to play this way, and that's fine... but if there's going to be an issue, it is because the code defining the ships needs to be reworked and looked at if you are going to have a sector of space be restrictive in what ships can or cannot enter. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:10:00 -
[965] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
so not only do you have to resort to personal attacks, you're not even discussing the topic of the thread. c'mon murk, you're better than this.
Blatant disregard for the written word shows you are not paying attention sir. My posts are indeed contributing to the thread; it's bringing it back on track. the only contribution you've provided since you started posting is bumping the thread. not to mention you've decided to join the party after all of the points have been beaten more than a dead horse.
Tell us how you really feel sir. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:13:00 -
[966] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Tell us how you really feel sir.
slightly tired, it was a long day at work to be honest. Other than that, i can't complain really. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:14:00 -
[967] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec. Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.
No the op said they should still happen. The entire thread is about suicide ganking not wardecs which are not even mentioned. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:23:00 -
[968] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec. Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. No the op said they should still happen. The entire thread is about suicide ganking not wardecs which are not even mentioned.
I suggest reading it again and please point out where the act of suicide ganking should be in question as to which should encourage you to debate it please. I can't find any mention whatsoever in saying they shouldn't happen (in fact the post said it SHOULD).
It does however, mention the survivability of freighters and jump freighters... sooo... once we can discount suicide ganks as being a legit way to destroy a freighter... what would be another way you can think of to kill a freighter in highsec with small little ships? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:24:00 -
[969] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec. Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. No the op said they should still happen. The entire thread is about suicide ganking not wardecs which are not even mentioned.
Do you proofread? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:26:00 -
[970] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:The abusing on the current game mechanics shows it is not "working as intended" since it is flawed from the start.
Which mechanics are we abusing now?
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:26:00 -
[971] - Quote
murk, what are you talking about? the entire OP exclusively talks about suicide ganking. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:28:00 -
[972] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec. Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. No the op said they should still happen. The entire thread is about suicide ganking not wardecs which are not even mentioned. Do you proofread?
You clearly arn't. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:28:00 -
[973] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:murk, what are you talking about? the entire OP exclusively talks about suicide ganking.
Only that they should still happen, but a cost disparity should be analyzed. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:28:00 -
[974] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:The abusing on the current game mechanics shows it is not "working as intended" since it is flawed from the start. Which mechanics are we abusing now?
Eh? Don't victimize yourself. I'm putting it on CCP to allow capitals in highsec. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:29:00 -
[975] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wardecs have nothing to do with this thread. About as much as suicide ganks actually. We are talking about freighters and jump freighters being able to tank damage from small ships in highsec. Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. No the op said they should still happen. The entire thread is about suicide ganking not wardecs which are not even mentioned. Do you proofread? You clearly arn't.
Is that a yes or a no? (You can by all means repeat the question to me after you answer and I will answer honestly). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:29:00 -
[976] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:murk, what are you talking about? the entire OP exclusively talks about suicide ganking. Only yhat they should still happen, but a cost disparity should be analyzed.
it has been, it takes >1 vindicator to suicide gank a freighter, therefore freighter EHP needs a nerf in order to make sure both the ganker and the victim lose the same isk value. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:29:00 -
[977] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure.
Hey look, the entire OP is about suicide ganking.
Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:31:00 -
[978] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. Hey look, the entire OP is about suicide ganking. Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
Yep. Point out where you need to justify suicide ganking please. (Hint- the OP already said they should happen). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:31:00 -
[979] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:The abusing on the current game mechanics shows it is not "working as intended" since it is flawed from the start. Which mechanics are we abusing now? Eh? Don't victimize yourself. I'm putting it on CCP to allow capitals in highsec.
So mechanics are being abused by someone, but it's mostly to do with CCP allowing Orca's & Freighters in highsec. Sure, makes perfect sense.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7802
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:32:00 -
[980] - Quote
There is no mention at all about wardecs untill murk brought it up. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:32:00 -
[981] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:murk, what are you talking about? the entire OP exclusively talks about suicide ganking. Only yhat they should still happen, but a cost disparity should be analyzed. it has been, it takes >1 vindicator to suicide gank a freighter, therefore freighter EHP needs a nerf in order to make sure both the ganker and the victim lose the same isk value.
Freighters should not be allowed in highsec at all. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:33:00 -
[982] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Suicide ganks are not in question. yes they are, read it again. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:33:00 -
[983] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There is no mention at all about wardecs untill murk brought it up.
As yet another way to destroy freighters. The point of the thread. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:34:00 -
[984] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. Hey look, the entire OP is about suicide ganking. Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
Yep. Point out where you need to justify suicide ganking please. (Hint- the OP already said they should happen). The thread, if you do not fill in with your own words and take the written word at face value, mentions cost of ships killing freighter survivability should be increased. Suicide ganks are not in question. Just the destruction of freighters and the ease to accomplish that is.
The part where he subtly suggests that isk tanking is the solution. You know, the subject of the last 49 pages.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:35:00 -
[985] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is no mention at all about wardecs untill murk brought it up. As yet another way to destroy freighters. The point of the thread.
Yet not what the OP was referring too. Apparently reading is hard, at least according to your posts.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:36:00 -
[986] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:murk, what are you talking about? the entire OP exclusively talks about suicide ganking. Only yhat they should still happen, but a cost disparity should be analyzed. it has been, it takes >1 vindicator to suicide gank a freighter, therefore freighter EHP needs a nerf in order to make sure both the ganker and the victim lose the same isk value. Freighters should not be allowed in highsec at all.
Yet they are because they aren't a combat capital, which cannot be used in highsec.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Dave Stark
3547
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:39:00 -
[987] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is no mention at all about wardecs untill murk brought it up. As yet another way to destroy freighters. The point of the thread.
no, the point of this thread is suicide ganking. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:44:00 -
[988] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is no mention at all about wardecs untill murk brought it up. As yet another way to destroy freighters. The point of the thread. Yet not what the OP was referring too. Apparently reading is hard, at least according to your posts.
I think you like to focus on one small thing and blow it out of proportion and victimize yourself for it.
You should expand your thinking and realize there is more to blowing **** up than just suicide gank with cheap ships.
Eve has more potential than you give it credit for sir. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3548
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:47:00 -
[989] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:I think
i request a demonstration, one has yet to be provided. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:49:00 -
[990] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is no mention at all about wardecs untill murk brought it up. As yet another way to destroy freighters. The point of the thread. Yet not what the OP was referring too. Apparently reading is hard, at least according to your posts. I think you like to focus on one small thing and blow it out of proportion and victimize yourself for it. You should expand your thinking and realize there is more to blowing **** up than just suicide gank with cheap ships. Eve has more potential than you give it credit for sir.
I'm not a big fan of the self-victimization thing. I acknowledge that there is more to blowing stuff up than just suicide ganking, but that is not what the thread was about & thus, not what we've been talking about for the last 50 pages. I'm fully aware of the potential in EVE, but that is not the topic of the thread here. Try to stay on topic, if not for the OP, then out of respect for yourself.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:49:00 -
[991] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Even the op mentioned suicide ganks were not in question. I posted the entire first post just to make sure. Hey look, the entire OP is about suicide ganking. Lucy Hastmena wrote:Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec. Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5. 17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion. Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg). The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.
Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.
Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.
Yep. Point out where you need to justify suicide ganking please. (Hint- the OP already said they should happen). The thread, if you do not fill in with your own words and take the written word at face value, mentions cost of ships killing freighter survivability should be increased. Suicide ganks are not in question. Just the destruction of freighters and the ease to accomplish that is. The part where he subtly suggests that isk tanking is the solution. You know, the subject of the last 49 pages.
But that's everyone else but the OP playing wordsmith to sling mud at each other.. saying things like "all time low" and "bots" and "working as intended".
Freighters just shouldn't exist in highsec period. Let haulers remain. Get rid of all capitals. Stop worrying about proving what's NOT wrong and worrying about finding ways to sling mud at people and realize ccp ****** things up in a half assed way.
You guys get too worked up on what I'm saying, as opposed to what the idea implies.
Want to say I'm trolling? You are allowed to have an opinion.. but I'm not the one who said capitals do not belong in highsec while allowing capital grade ships to continue to fly in and out of highsec am I?
Nor am I the one who thinks it's "suicide gank or nothing for reals yo".
I will always be open to change (not always advocate it, but atleast hear it out) but when you want to focus on "49 pages of" when clearly you guys have already worked it to the ground and have gotten nowhere, your posting skills suck. And would bring into question your ability to teach anyone anything.
So do not worry aqbout what I'm bringing to the table "or lack thereof", instead worry about what you are bringing to the table, because clearly you are failing. Hard.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:49:00 -
[992] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:murk, what are you talking about? the entire OP exclusively talks about suicide ganking. Only yhat they should still happen, but a cost disparity should be analyzed. it has been, it takes >1 vindicator to suicide gank a freighter, therefore freighter EHP needs a nerf in order to make sure both the ganker and the victim lose the same isk value. Freighters should not be allowed in highsec at all. Yet they are because they aren't a combat capital, which cannot be used in highsec.
Capital is capital.
This is a F&I thread, not GD. Act like it. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:50:00 -
[993] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I think i request a demonstration, one has yet to be provided.
Well, for one I can point out you can't grammar for ****. At least if you're going to insult someone, do it as an adult. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:51:00 -
[994] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is no mention at all about wardecs untill murk brought it up. As yet another way to destroy freighters. The point of the thread. Yet not what the OP was referring too. Apparently reading is hard, at least according to your posts. I think you like to focus on one small thing and blow it out of proportion and victimize yourself for it. You should expand your thinking and realize there is more to blowing **** up than just suicide gank with cheap ships. Eve has more potential than you give it credit for sir. I'm not a big fan of the self-victimization thing. I acknowledge that there is more to blowing stuff up than just suicide ganking, but that is not what the thread was about & thus, not what we've been talking about for the last 50 pages. I'm fully aware of the potential in EVE, but that is not the topic of the thread here. Try to stay on topic, if not for the OP, then out of respect for yourself.
50 pages!
Think about that. Seriously. 50 pages and you want to blame others.... stop feeding the fire with comic books and learn how to resolve a situation.
You know, be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3548
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 20:52:00 -
[995] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I think i request a demonstration, one has yet to be provided. Well, for one I can point out you can't grammar for ****. At least if you're going to insult someone, do it as an adult.
do you feel insulted by my post then?
that wasn't my intention. i was merely asking you to provide justification for a statement you made. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:02:00 -
[996] - Quote
The wardec thing I brought up was because of the fact the question of "other people doing it" came up, and most other corps do not suicide gank as wardeccing and ganking their targets and freighters for profit is done instead.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities Apocalypse Now.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:02:00 -
[997] - Quote
Yes, they need to give the JF ONE high slot and (0) NO hardpoints, while allowing only enough CPU and PG for a PROTOTYPE cloak (PG of 1, CPU of 35). This would keep jf's from fitting modules that use alot of power or abusing the high slot for other than a prototype cloak.
The JF needs this prototype cloak so bad, for when using covert cyno's; its only fair for it to have it. It would be asking way too much, however, for a covert ops cloak or the ability to also fit a AB/MWD (capital size) for frag warp.
This way, if your cyno is killed before you land, you can cloak up and use the best of your ability to stay away from the offending ships. The main reason for the cloak is for when you jump in on covert cyno and the system suddenly fills with a ghank squad trying to find you.
Also, I like the thread owner's idea; make us have more resists on hull, where all the hp is. The fenrir has 0 resists but should be made for autopiloting, due to its tedious travel time. PLEASE make the fenrir have 40% - 50% resists on hull OR move all of the HP to armor and give the fenrir some rig slots, for capital trimark and/or capital armor pumps.
The way you, ccp, seemed to intend use of JF and freighter is, we're suppose to jump three times in JF to FIRST highsec system in route THEN use fenrir to transport those three jf loads, in one fenrir load, around high security. Yes, JF should be easily ghankable still because of its faster align time and, hopefully, the new prototype cloak ability. HOWEVER, the fenrir should take a lot more to ghank; it should be the boss of travel in high security.
Let the idiots that want to be cheap or lazy, having only a JF and no fenrir, still be ghanked; cause and effect |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:03:00 -
[998] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I think i request a demonstration, one has yet to be provided. Well, for one I can point out you can't grammar for ****. At least if you're going to insult someone, do it as an adult. do you feel insulted by my post then? that wasn't my intention. i was merely asking you to provide justification for a statement you made.
But you quoted out of context. So I'm not sure how you are going to accomplish some failed attempt to use my words against me.
And again, my statement saying you troll more than me is being shown and proven in this thread. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Dave Stark
3548
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:04:00 -
[999] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:The wardec thing I brought up was because of the fact the question of "other people doing it" came up, and most other corps do not suicide gank as wardeccing and ganking their targets and freighters for profit is done instead.
so you admit you completely disregarded the subject of the conversation and decided to go off on a random and irrelevant tangent?
glad we cleared that up. |
Dave Stark
3548
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:05:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I think i request a demonstration, one has yet to be provided. Well, for one I can point out you can't grammar for ****. At least if you're going to insult someone, do it as an adult. do you feel insulted by my post then? that wasn't my intention. i was merely asking you to provide justification for a statement you made. But you quoted out of context. So I'm not sure how you are going to accomplish some failed attempt to use my words against me. And again, my statement saying you troll more than me is being shown and proven in this thread.
considering you've been in here for about 5 pages and contributed 0 to the topic since you didn't know what it was, i'd say you're still ahead of me on the trolling portion of the thread. |
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:07:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:The wardec thing I brought up was because of the fact the question of "other people doing it" came up, and most other corps do not suicide gank as wardeccing and ganking their targets and freighters for profit is done instead.
That came up because a couple of people were arguing that suicide ganking is really easy to do, so we asked them "If it's so easy, why aren't more people doing it?". The topic was still about suicide ganking. Anyhow, thanks for clarifying the mistake you made. Lets put this behind us now & get back to the topic at hand.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities Apocalypse Now.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:07:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:I think i request a demonstration, one has yet to be provided.
Well, for one I can point out you can't grammar for ****. At least if you're going to insult someone, do it as an adult.[/quote]
He cant argue with himself; stop giving responses and stop littering in this forum. By the way, you're missing a verb in your quote, Dave, whom wants to point out other's fault at grammar. Most people here don't have ability to write English, natively. So, for that, they're doing a better job that someone that should know better - YOU! Take it from a person who ACED their college entry exam, in English; the college was shocked and said they have NEVER had anyone else do that.
ANyway, now that my topic on page 50 is now overlooked due to your bickering, I'm reposting it here and deleting the first one:
Yes, they need to give the JF ONE high slot and (0) NO hardpoints, while allowing only enough CPU and PG for a PROTOTYPE cloak (PG of 1, CPU of 35). This would keep jf's from fitting modules that use alot of power or abusing the high slot for other than a prototype cloak.
The JF needs this prototype cloak so bad, for when using covert cyno's; its only fair for it to have it. It would be asking way too much, however, for a covert ops cloak or the ability to also fit a AB/MWD (capital size) for frag warp.
This way, if your cyno is killed before you land, you can cloak up and use the best of your ability to stay away from the offending ships. The main reason for the cloak is for when you jump in on covert cyno and the system suddenly fills with a ghank squad trying to find you.
Also, I like the thread owner's idea; make us have more resists on hull, where all the hp is. The fenrir has 0 resists but should be made for autopiloting, due to its tedious travel time. PLEASE make the fenrir have 40% - 50% resists on hull OR move all of the HP to armor and give the fenrir some rig slots, for capital trimark and/or capital armor pumps.
The way you, ccp, seem to intend use of JF and freighter is, we're suppose to jump three times in JF to FIRST highsec system in route THEN use fenrir to transport those three jf loads, in one fenrir load, around high security. Yes, JF should be easily ghankable still because of its faster align time and, hopefully, the new prototype cloak ability. HOWEVER, the fenrir should take a lot more to ghank; it should be the boss of travel in high security.
Let the idiots that want to be cheap or lazy, having only a JF and no fenrir, still be ghanked; cause and effect [:8)
Dave Stark wrote:did elvis preslie manage to be even more off topic than murk?
impressive. SHUT THE HELL UP AND MOVE ON
Dave Stark wrote:also this thread should have been locked about 15 pages ago, it had run it's course long ago.
then again i guess nobody cares about threads that aren't in GD. *shrug*
aND YOU WASTE MORE SPACE BY MAKING ANOTHER POST RIGHT BELOW YOUR LAST ONE, INSTEAD OF EDITING YOUR LAST, LIKE >THIS< POST |
Dave Stark
3548
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:10:00 -
[1003] - Quote
did elvis preslie manage to be even more off topic than murk?
impressive. |
Dave Stark
3548
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:11:00 -
[1004] - Quote
also this thread should have been locked about 15 pages ago, it had run it's course long ago.
then again i guess nobody cares about threads that aren't in GD. *shrug* |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3626
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:13:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:did elvis preslie manage to be even more off topic than murk?
impressive.
In a sad, sad way.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:14:00 -
[1006] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:The wardec thing I brought up was because of the fact the question of "other people doing it" came up, and most other corps do not suicide gank as wardeccing and ganking their targets and freighters for profit is done instead.
so you admit you completely disregarded the subject of the conversation and decided to go off on a random and irrelevant tangent? glad we cleared that up.
No, I'm saying the original comment of "noone else is doing it" is disingenuous since other people do gank freighters using different mechanics.
The act of the freighters dying to small ships is still happening. Suicide ganks is only 1 element, not all the elements.
Stop being so angry and petulant.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:16:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
considering you've been in here for about 5 pages and contributed 0 to the topic since you didn't know what it was, i'd say you're still ahead of me on the trolling portion of the thread.
I had to play catch up to all your troll posts. You've been hard at work trolling over the holiday weekend. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:19:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
considering you've been in here for about 5 pages and contributed 0 to the topic since you didn't know what it was, i'd say you're still ahead of me on the trolling portion of the thread.
I had to play catch up to all your troll posts. You've been hard at work trolling over the holiday weekend.
Just shut up and stop being off topic.
==================================================================================================== THE NO TROLL LINES HAVE BEEN DRAWN ====================================================================================================
Quote: Out of all the people staying on topic, I'm the one doing it the most. I don't feel the need to sling mud unlike you and your cohorts =)
I even requoted the original topic and brought a new reply into the mix, which has yet to be addressed for 2 pages now(Although you did give half of a reply). I can only assume due to your inability to get off your high horse and move forward.
You seem to care to argue more about who is conversating, not what they are conversating about.
It's not even my topic, but thank you for the attention.
No you're not, you're adding to the problem. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:19:00 -
[1009] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:The wardec thing I brought up was because of the fact the question of "other people doing it" came up, and most other corps do not suicide gank as wardeccing and ganking their targets and freighters for profit is done instead.
That came up because a couple of people were arguing that suicide ganking is really easy to do, so we asked them "If it's so easy, why aren't more people doing it?". The topic was still about suicide ganking. Anyhow, thanks for clarifying the mistake you made. Lets put this behind us now & get back to the topic at hand.
But you kept saying. Over and over. Like a broken record. Suicide ganks are not the only way to blow up a freighter, and even using other mechanics have relevance to what the OP mentioned.
Out of all the people staying on topic, I'm the one doing it the most. I don't feel the need to sling mud unlike you and your cohorts =)
I even requoted the original topic and brought a new reply into the mix, which has yet to be addressed for 2 pages now(Although you did give half of a reply). I can only assume due to your inability to get off your high horse and move forward.
You seem to care to argue more about who is conversating, not what they are conversating about.
It's not even my topic, but thank you for the attention. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Dave Stark
3548
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:21:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:The wardec thing I brought up was because of the fact the question of "other people doing it" came up, and most other corps do not suicide gank as wardeccing and ganking their targets and freighters for profit is done instead.
so you admit you completely disregarded the subject of the conversation and decided to go off on a random and irrelevant tangent? glad we cleared that up. No, I'm saying the original comment of "noone else is doing it" is disingenuous since other people do gank freighters using different mechanics. The act of the freighters dying to small ships is still happening. Suicide ganks is only 1 element, not all the elements. Stop being so angry and petulant.
no, he was specifically asking why more people weren't suicide ganking freighters. read the thread.
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Dave Stark
3548
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:22:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Elvis Preslie wrote:[various nonsense]
you seem upset.
are you upset? |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:23:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:The wardec thing I brought up was because of the fact the question of "other people doing it" came up, and most other corps do not suicide gank as wardeccing and ganking their targets and freighters for profit is done instead.
so you admit you completely disregarded the subject of the conversation and decided to go off on a random and irrelevant tangent? glad we cleared that up. No, I'm saying the original comment of "noone else is doing it" is disingenuous since other people do gank freighters using different mechanics. The act of the freighters dying to small ships is still happening. Suicide ganks is only 1 element, not all the elements. Stop being so angry and petulant. no, he was specifically asking why more people weren't suicide ganking freighters. read the thread.
Yes, I just answered. Because they are using other mechanics to destroy freighters in highsec. Such as wardecs.
Freighters still do not belong in highsec as they are capital grade ships. Haulers, which obviously perform the same duties even though on a much smaller scale, can fit modules and are being specialized for specific roles therefore relevant. They were even mentioned a few pages ago.
Freighters on the other hand, do not belong.
Kick 'em out. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities Apocalypse Now.
34
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:30:00 -
[1013] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yes, I just answered. Because they are using other mechanics to destroy freighters in highsec. Such as wardecs.
Freighters still do not belong in highsec as they are capital grade ships. Haulers, which obviously perform the same duties even though on a much smaller scale, can fit modules and are being specialized for specific roles therefore relevant. They were even mentioned a few pages ago.
Freighters on the other hand, do not belong.
Kick 'em out.
Yes, so because I dont use faction warfare, take that out, and because I dont do missions, take that out, and because I dont scam, make that illegal.
This thread is not about taking out freighters; just because you dont do something doesnt mean you refute the use of it.
If you dont have something to say to make the topic better, DONT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL - ESPECIALLY with your dumb idea to take freighters out, I hope you're ready to pay HEAVILY for EVERYTHING. Prices will skyrocket, which is fine by me as a trader.
Dave Stark wrote:awesome, hate mail from the king himself. although i fear he may have left the building.
Another off topic post reported; keep em coming, so that you eventually get an imminent ban; btw anyone else littering with off-the-wall posts will also be reported; this isnt a grudge against a specific person |
Dave Stark
3550
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:31:00 -
[1014] - Quote
awesome, hate mail from the king himself. although i fear he may have left the building. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
462
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 21:39:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Elvis Preslie wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Yes, I just answered. Because they are using other mechanics to destroy freighters in highsec. Such as wardecs.
Freighters still do not belong in highsec as they are capital grade ships. Haulers, which obviously perform the same duties even though on a much smaller scale, can fit modules and are being specialized for specific roles therefore relevant. They were even mentioned a few pages ago.
Freighters on the other hand, do not belong.
Kick 'em out.
Yes, so because I dont use faction warfare, take that out, and because I dont do missions, take that out, and because I dont scam, make that illegal. This thread is not about taking out freighters; just because you dont do something doesnt mean you refute the use of it. If you dont have something to say to make the topic better, DONT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL - ESPECIALLY with your dumb idea to take freighters out, I hope you're ready to pay HEAVILY for EVERYTHING. Prices will skyrocket, which is fine by me as a trader. Dave Stark wrote:awesome, hate mail from the king himself. although i fear he may have left the building. Another off topic post reported; keep em coming, so that you eventually get an imminent ban; btw anyone else littering with off-the-wall posts will also be reported; this isnt a grudge against a specific person
Market changes is fine. Highsec needs to harden up anyways. And if freighters are capitals, they need to be kicked out. One wreck at a time. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
146
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Posted - 2013.09.03 22:46:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Elvis Preslie wrote:Another off topic post reported; keep em coming, so that you eventually get an imminent ban; btw anyone else littering with off-the-wall posts will also be reported; this isnt a grudge against a specific person. PLEASE< ccp, give us the ability to VOTE DOWN people.
Confirming that the forums need more ISBoxing. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1325
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Posted - 2013.09.03 22:55:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Reported for having diarrhea of the mouth. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
13186
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Posted - 2013.09.03 23:03:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Elvis Preslie wrote: Another off topic post reported; keep em coming, so that you eventually get an imminent ban; btw anyone else littering with off-the-wall posts will also be reported.
I don't see the letters CCP or ISD in your name, so who are you to decide what is and what is not offtopic?
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1326
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Posted - 2013.09.03 23:06:00 -
[1019] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Elvis Preslie wrote: Another off topic post reported; keep em coming, so that you eventually get an imminent ban; btw anyone else littering with off-the-wall posts will also be reported.
I don't see the letters CCP or ISD in your name, so who are you to decide what is and what is not offtopic?
He's a fat, slovenly man who died on the toilet, of course. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2401
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Posted - 2013.09.03 23:14:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Due to going very far off topic and beating a dead equine, I am closing this thread. Thank you. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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