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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.03.09 11:52:00 -
[1021]
Originally by: Cutter Isaacson I havent read through the entire thread, im tired, so forgive me if this question has already been asked and answered.
It was my understanding that the selling of online game property is a breach of copyright law or something. That isk, ahips etc from MMO's are the intellectual property of the companies that create them and therefore selling them online is illegal. Can't CCP and other companies of that ilk get these selling websites shutdown?
Surely if the Macroer's have no sales outlet for their product, then the problem would be solved? Feel free to tell me what the flaws are in this idea as there will doubtless be plenty.
P.S just to remind you, im tired so I may just be talking 5hi7....
To make an example applying the USA copyright laws in China or even in Italy is not easy and lawyers cost.
So while possible, the cost and time required generally make it not worthwhile.
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Varopriest
Black Locusts
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Posted - 2008.03.31 04:50:00 -
[1022]
Here's a silly thought from the cheap seats. How about including a random code in the MOTD and require all mining lasers to have that code entered once a day before activation. I realize that this would be an inconvienence on honest miners, but it should really put a crimp in the macro miners. Or maybe not
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Julia Newmatar
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Posted - 2008.03.31 08:03:00 -
[1023]
Originally by: Varopriest Here's a silly thought from the cheap seats. How about including a random code in the MOTD and require all mining lasers to have that code entered once a day before activation. I realize that this would be an inconvienence on honest miners, but it should really put a crimp in the macro miners. Or maybe not
Although this is not a bad idea, the result will probably be a huge amount of petitions with the text "What is todays code", resulting in the already overloaded petition system being even more strained.
And most macro's seem to have OCR now, so they are actually able to red the screen, so the odds are they would be able to read the code and enter it.
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Red Dutchess
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.31 12:44:00 -
[1024]
Is this *still* going on? It's been running for years now, and people still keep going at it like a bull in a china shop.
Personally I think the whole situation has been blown totally out of proportion by the minority who want to keep others down, so they can fly around e-peening and omgwtfbbqpwning. Allow me to elaborate;
These are the same people who moan about empire space. The same people that hurl the term "carebear" around, the people that say "shut up noob", the people who aren't constructive or helpful to the community and just want to lord it up.
You know the ones... You've seen them. The scary "outlaws" with a -1.4 sec status that hang around in empire smacking in local, can baiting and waving e-peen around like EVE is going out of fashion. The same ones that dock up and run away, the same ones that vanish once a war dec is issued.
It doesn't stop there ofc, we also have the Goons suiciding barges in high sec because it's in "safe" empire space, because it's not done "their" way or to their liking. Everyone has a career path to choose - just like in RL. You can choose danger and go to 0.0 (RL = join the army) or you can stay in 1.0 (RL = office work) so there is no right and wrong.
Anyway, I sidetrack...
As I said, I don't believe this is as big a problem as people bleet on about. It's a bandwagon load of monkies and more keep jumping on it through insecurity and fear about their own "position" and status.
Lets just suppose for a moment that a new player buys 1 billion isk. Fine, they have a big fat wallet. Now what are they going to do with it? The answer is virtually nothing because they don't have the skills to buy and use anything decent - unless they want to buy the entire empire stock of Civilian Shield Boosters!?!?
The point is that farming occurs in virtually any MMO. Certainly EVE does not suffer as much as WoW or others. The reason? The time-based skill system!
Genius!
You can have all the money in the world, all the ships in the world but you can't use them because skills are time-based. As soon as you can fly a battleship, doesn't mean you can use/fit it properly.
The time based skill system keeps things in check, it forces people to adhere to the rules no matter how they obtain their money.
Lets now say, someone bought 1 billion isk and can now fly a battleship. They will simply fit it poorly, think they are god like, head to low sec and get omgwtfbbqpwned in about 3 minutes. Rinse and repeat until isk is gone.
If people are stupid and lazy enough to throw RL money down the drain on ships, then fine, let them I say. They aren't really going to be much of a problem and will most likely get bored after losing a few ships. They will soon stop throwing RL money at the game when it starts to cost them.
Quite frankly, without mining/missions/trade etc there is little point to the game - aside from PVP ofc. But people who buy isk are going to suck because they have no experience whatsoever. I would think there is a pretty high "turn over" of these people.
When the big fat isk wallet is empty then what? They either leave, or buy more. However there is only a certain amount people will spend on a computer game.
Without the means to generate their own isk, these people come and go like a passing ship in the night.
I know this doesn't stop the farmers, but it does show that the end buyers gain no long term benefit from it.
If you really do have an issue with the farmers, head to low sec and have a shooting fest - I can recommend it btw. Get some locals friendly, join a few farmer hunting channels.
Again, this doesn't solve the problem but it will sure make you feel better. Just remember;
1. It's not as bad as it first appears 2. You can always shoot the farmers 3. ISK buying people have very limited life spans
Just my random thoughts on the subject
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Red Dutchess
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.31 13:08:00 -
[1025]
In addition to my above post....
As people have correctly said CCP are doing something about it, and some of the macros/farmers are mysteriously vanishing. Picture the scene:
*knock at the door* Macro: Who is it? Dev: CCP, you've won our prize of the month Macro: Oooh goody *door opens, GM's pile in*
Also, again as people have said transactions for billions of isk with nothing in return are probably "flagged" as suspicious and looked into.
It's pretty obvious to see when it's happening. I think it's being dealt with, but it's going to be a constant and ongoing thing.
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Shakuul
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Posted - 2008.03.31 14:22:00 -
[1026]
Originally by: Wil Danis IÆve read just about the whole thread and my common sense is screaming at me this: 1)Macroing and farming, with the attendant, high sec belt depletion and in-game economic disruption, DO SERIOUSLY compromise the immersion factor of the game. My will to mine was instantly deflated once I found out the market was screwed with the marcoing and farming activities.
I don't think this is entirely true. For the most part, farmers won't interfere with a corps ability to mine for itself. Maybe they strip out a few systems, but there are plenty of high sec systems with ore to go around. At worst they create a minor inconvenience if you have to make a couple extra jumps to get to a belt with ore.
Additionally, they reduce mineral prices. This means it will be that much cheaper for people to pvp, run missions, manufacture, etc. Additionally, it encourages non-farming miners to move out to 0.0 (where ore value will be much higher now because of cheap low ends). For those of you that believe all of the carebears need to get out to 0.0, this is also a good thing.
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Shakuul
Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.04.07 00:31:00 -
[1027]
Is there a macro miner intel channel? its probably been posted somewhere but the search is terrible and eve-search is mediocre.
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Bosun Pete
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.07 00:52:00 -
[1028]
Channel name of "macrointel", I think. |
Varopriest
White Wolves Syndicate Kingdom of Redemption
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Posted - 2008.04.07 23:06:00 -
[1029]
Originally by: Red Dutchess
Again, this doesn't solve the problem but it will sure make you feel better. Just remember;
1. It's not as bad as it first appears 2. You can always shoot the farmers 3. ISK buying people have very limited life spans
Just my random thoughts on the subject
While I agree with some of your arguments, I think that Macro's cause problems that do effect game play for everyone. It's a pain, and I wish more could be done about it.
My last thought on the subject:
What if CCP allowed players to challenge any mining barge in a roid belt. Give the challenged player 15 mins to respond, but if they didn't, flag them as if they had stolen from the challenging player. Allow the player 15 mins to eliminate the barge. Limit the challenges to 1 per hour per ship, (if a barge is challenged it cannot be challenged again for 1 hour), and dump all the challenge information into a database file. This would short term fix the problem by allowing players to eliminate some macro miners until the software caught up. By that time, even if the macro auto responded to the challenge, if the data is dumped to a database, CCP would have all the information it would need to identify the macros.
For example, you fly around a roid belt ratting, you find three barges with almost identical names. You then issue the challenge on the barges, and Concord issues a message to the barges expecting a reply. Even if the macro is set to auto-reply, CCP would have in its possesion the fact that those three ships were challenged 23 times a day for 7 days. (I don't care how much you power play, can't be done) It would also have the response time that it took for each challenge to be acknowledge. If all the challenges were ack'd within milliseconds of each other, it should set a pretty big flag for the GM's. Dump the database once a week, look at the individuals with the most challenges, and you will probably find macros.
Think about the other aspects this would allow. I take a barge into a field, and have several buddies in cloaked ships just hanging around. Wait for a challenge, ignore the challenge, sit back and watch the fireworks when I'm fired at. Could lead to some interesting battles in high sec.
Like I said, just a thought from the cheap seats.
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Aphoticus
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Posted - 2008.04.22 18:01:00 -
[1030]
I am new here, and I have tried to follow the thread as best I can, but have only heard hints on what I envision as a in-game solution.
Mention has been made of hunting parties, but in hi-sec there is that issue of security level going down.
Why not fund a group of Alts for this purpose. Like Billy the Kid in Young Guns.
You have some high-sec or corps fund a group of outlaws to do the dirty work. That is what they are for, to have low security and take out the farmers.
Identifing the farmers is another issue, but at least we could do something about it in game.
Is this not doable for some reason I am clueless about?
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Qubit Infinity
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Posted - 2008.04.23 06:25:00 -
[1031]
A NEW WAY OF MINING
So far as I can tell the most common method of generationg the ISK to sell for real money is macro mining.
CCP instead of being reactive and trying to catch people doing real money trading why not be proactive?
Many of the rmt are criminals and CCP is always going to be one step behind in stopping them.
My idea would be to fix mining. What I mean is: mining is so spectacularly boring and mechanically repetitive that it is an ideal target for macros.
If mining was made into the game that it should be, requiring real time input from the player much like missions do, it would be much more difficult to macro mine and vastly less profitable. It would also mean that more players would be drawn to mining as an exciting career.
I beleive that macro mining is so entrenched in the eve economy, that wiping it out entirely would present serious problems for the eve economy.
However an new way of mining could be statistical in nature, so that unintelligent macros get a lower yield than, skilled players. This skewing could be introduced slowly, so that the economy could adapt of a period of time.
In short make mining fun and dificult to macro, and most of the rmt would go away in time.
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Zurrar
Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.04.23 07:00:00 -
[1032]
you know making mining interactive isnt a bad idea. The way a mining beam works is it melts everything and sends it up beam to the miner. so same idea, just different than click and push a button. have the asteroid, normal looking, but with the ore sticking out of the rock. add a mouse point tracking system for laser targeting, and when they activate the laser it follows the mouse pointer. cut the time down a bit on how long it takes to get the mins, and remove the targeting of asteroids. im sure after some development a macro can be used, but since its simply not 'target, f1 f2 f3, warp to, dock, undock, warp to, repeat' its finding the ores on the rock, and using the laser like a cutting tool. |
Qubit Infinity
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Posted - 2008.04.23 07:25:00 -
[1033]
Originally by: Zurrar you know making mining interactive isnt a bad idea...
Yes Zurrar, thats exaclty the kind of thing I was thinking of.
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Mudrat
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Posted - 2008.04.23 08:59:00 -
[1034]
the worst thing anyone can do is to shoot the macro'ers. report them. it's harder on gm's to catch them in the act if all they are in are pods |
Zurrar
Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:00:00 -
[1035]
if eve is for bob then macro is for gs? |
Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.04.23 09:53:00 -
[1036]
Originally by: Mudrat the worst thing anyone can do is to shoot the macro'ers. report them. it's harder on gm's to catch them in the act if all they are in are pods
Of course. Why should we disrupt their money flow when it can potentially delay the banning of their expendable accounts for a few minutes ?
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mingeta dong
BEER Inc. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.23 10:59:00 -
[1037]
Originally by: Stakhanov
Originally by: Mudrat the worst thing anyone can do is to shoot the macro'ers. report them. it's harder on gm's to catch them in the act if all they are in are pods
Of course. Why should we disrupt their money flow when it can potentially delay the banning of their expendable accounts for a few minutes ?
This. All the time there is a free trial, banning accounts will do squat imo. CCP have to weigh up (I'm sure they have) the risk v reward that offering this to the public has.
I only read the first few posts in this monster thread and to be honest running to the forums isn't the answer as CCP are all to aware of the issue, it has a financial effect on their company. There is no greater incentive for any company to take action than a dent in their profits.
Players don't like to hear about such things as in their opinion the game should come first, realistically though any venture of this type has to be a financial success.
I for one wouldnÆt like to see any major changes to game mechanics in an attempt to get around the issue. CCP seem to be doing the right thing in attempting to educate players that buying isk for úú ($$ or whatever) is bad mmkay, while at the same time offering an alternative via GTC sales. This isnÆt as contradictory as it seems to some, many players (myself included) cannot invest the time to keep up with the in-game cost of their PvP habit. Offering a service like the GTC for isk trade keeps many people (I would suspect, older, full time employed) interested as they can still compete with their peers. The way our characters gain SP with the skill training system compliments this, making the game very attractive for those of us who have a life away from EVE.
Players want to take action? ThatÆs fine; everyone can do this in-game. In the low sec systems I normally travel in there are swarms of haulers running courier missions, I simply park a ship outside of whichever station their goods are spawned at and shoot them when they undock. I shoot a couple and the rest stay docked all the time IÆm sitting there. In reality IÆm watching TV and they are losing a very small amount of their profit with the characters I am camping but it is disruption never less. They donÆt fight back; I donÆt really have to concentrate. I win a very small battle in a much larger struggle.
There are corps dedicated to this end, create an alt, and join in. It doesnÆt take much to effect a farmerÆs profit. If the RL isk isnÆt coming in it makes selling isk a less profitable enterprise resulting in fewer people being involved in it.
I must be drunk to have spent all that time typing what everyone already knows, right?
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JeanMi Requile
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:27:00 -
[1038]
Maco miners have several ways to get their ore back to station, but most undock in a hulk , mine dock and empty their hold then start again. To impede this method couldn't a "confirmation code" be requested at every undock attempt. What I mean by a confirmation is a picture with deformed letters "drawn" inside. The player can read these artistic codes and punch them into an "undocking console" or something of the such. A macro wouldn't be able to read these confirmations code and undock.
I know that certain macro miners jetcan mine and haul themselves, but they seem rarer to me. And this sort of determined macro'er who sits in front of is PC would be much more difficult to thrawrt anyways without being detrimental to rookie players or "no war lovers". |
JeanMi Requile
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Posted - 2008.04.29 14:44:00 -
[1039]
Edited by: JeanMi Requile on 29/04/2008 14:45:44 Alternative solution
Can't we imagine having a new caterogy of "saboteur" rats. These rats would have a special ability "sabotage". After hitting a target successfuly a certain number of times, they disable the high slots modules. Give these saboteur rats a "limited stealth ability". In game terms this means that drones on agressive won't autmatically engage them. The saboteur rats have off course very little hp and damage so as not to be an actual threat to rookie players. In order to make it difficult to reverse the sabotage the following scenario can be considered: sabotaged high slot items cannot be removed or repaired except at some stations with the "reverse sabotage ability" these stations would be in systems deprived of belts. Reversing sabotage may seem like a hassle but if "saboteur rats" are weak enough, only those who don't pay attention to their game should suffer the consequence of sabotage.
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Carlos Hathcock1372
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Posted - 2008.06.19 18:44:00 -
[1040]
Any educated person who understands human nature and social dynamics knows that some level of governance is required to solve problems such as macro mining. The notion that educating players on the evils of buying isk is simple minded and/or simply a cop-out for not wanting to put energy/resources into solving the problem. Humans do not work that way. Everyone knows buying isk is not good for the game, but human nature dictates that I will do whatever is in my best interest today. This mentality is the genesis of human governance. Social problems are not solved by educating people on the evils of their deeds. There must be some kind of proactive policing to limit the supply or availability of whatever is enabling the problem. I live in the US where we have a significant problem with high murder rates. I also spent many years in the military, and happen to like guns, and am a big believer that the right to bear arms is what made this country. I also see countries like Canada and the UK who have very low murder rates. WhatÆs the difference these countries? You can carry a gun in the US and you cannot in these other countries. ôGuns donÆt kill people, people kill peopleö is a very convenient argument for an old Marine who likes his gun, but it is also socially irresponsible and short sighted.
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Nahkep Narmelion
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Posted - 2008.06.24 21:35:00 -
[1041]
Originally by: Carlos Hathcock1372 Any educated person who understands human nature and social dynamics knows that some level of governance is required to solve problems such as macro mining....Humans do not work that way. Everyone knows buying isk is not good for the game, but human nature dictates that I will do whatever is in my best interest today.
Nevermind that CCP has endorsed the buying of isk and has implemented a formal trading system that allows players to buy isk. Granted it does not violate the EULA, but the point still remains: buying isk in and of itself isn't a problem for the game.
And no, humans are not as simple as you describe. Humans can and do engage in behavior that is less enjoyable for them today, but allows for even more enjoyment down the road. This is why people save money, have a 401k, and study when they could be doing something else.
By the way, the Secure ETC trading system also makes macro mining less of a problem as well. Sure player A who macros uses his "ill-gotten" isk to buy an ETC, but player B has used his cash to purchase that ETC. End result: CCP gets their money, player A can stay in Eve another two months, and player B gets the isk he wants to increase his enjoyment of the game. Everyone wins.
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Hurtado Soneka
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Posted - 2008.06.25 00:39:00 -
[1042]
best solution by far is to kick everybody out of starting NPC corp after 30 days into another NPC half way corp that lets PC corps war dec it!
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Haakelen
Force d'action navale
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Posted - 2008.06.25 00:40:00 -
[1043]
Originally by: Hurtado Soneka best solution by far is to kick everybody out of starting NPC corp after 30 days into another NPC half way corp that lets PC corps war dec it!
That is unreasonable, a one-stop gank shop would be decced by half the game 48 hours after the downtime in which this was added.
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Jmanis Catharg
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.25 00:50:00 -
[1044]
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 25/06/2008 00:50:32
Quote:
That is unreasonable, a one-stop gank shop would be decced by half the game 48 hours after the downtime in which this was added.
The ridiculousness of this being a problem is that I've had a one-man corp for about 9 months. It got war-decced once in this time, and only because I set up a hi-sec POS research tower with no defences. (Without getting into details, it seemed like a reasonable decision for what I was trying to achieve), and the deccing corp left after I paid a ransom.
My point is, while EVE is a 'social' game, then very few of the people in NPC corp chats are indeed 'social'. By creating their own one-man PC corp, they don't lose out on 'social' aspect, and indeed, if the NPC corps *could* be war-decced, it *at least* gives incentive to create a corporation to ultimately *avoid* a war dec, as forming a corporation is not the "green light for everyone to gank it's members" that they think it is.
I *used* to be opposed to the idea of making the non-noob NPC corps war-deccable, and of making people in the noob-corps 'graduate' after a month.
I honestly doubt this is a bad thing anymore.
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Black Leather
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Posted - 2008.06.25 01:08:00 -
[1045]
LOL at the guys wanting 30 day term (or however long) NPC corp membership.
Prolly gone through a box of tissue they're so excited at the 'open season' on peeps that prefer not being decced.
Seriously, leave the NPC corps alone.
Keep banning buyers.
Let the farmers farm all they want. If they can't sell their product, who gives a frick what they're doing.
Want to gank them, go for it. The mechanics for it are already in place. You know what to do.
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Jmanis Catharg
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.25 01:32:00 -
[1046]
Quote: LOL at the guys wanting 30 day term (or however long) NPC corp membership.
Prolly gone through a box of tissue they're so excited at the 'open season' on peeps that prefer not being decced.
As I said, make a one-man corp for a measly one-off payment of 1 million isk. If protection for your non-conspicous activities is what you want, there's nothing better. If you're not showing overt signs of "Hey, come kill me for easy winnings" then you'll never be decced. At the moment this already happens in the form of suicide ganks.
But if you don't believe me, go create your own one-man player-corp. Then get back to me in a few years about how long it took you to get a war dec. As I said, if people actually up and joined Player Corps, or just created their own one-man corp instead of sitting in the "apparent" safety of NPC corps they'd realise that being in a player-corp is not the "Open season" on carebears they think it is.
Quote: Keep banning buyers.
Don't disagree.
Quote: Let the farmers farm all they want. If they can't sell their product, who gives a frick what they're doing.
They'll always be able to sell their product, until EVE-O goes into the toilet and they move onto a new game. And personally I hate the idea of playing a game in an environment where people are motivated by RL proift and *not* the fact it's just a game.
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Robert Rosenberg
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 01:34:00 -
[1047]
Originally by: Black Leather LOL at the guys wanting 30 day term (or however long) NPC corp membership.
Prolly gone through a box of tissue they're so excited at the 'open season' on peeps that prefer not being decced.
Seriously, leave the NPC corps alone.
Keep banning buyers.
Let the farmers farm all they want. If they can't sell their product, who gives a frick what they're doing.
Want to gank them, go for it. The mechanics for it are already in place. You know what to do.
This worked so well in the war on drugs lets apply it to videogames! If people do not want 'open season' to be declared on them maybe they should get their ass into a real corp (even if it is a one-man corp for themselves only)
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Black Leather
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Posted - 2008.06.25 01:44:00 -
[1048]
Originally by: Robert Rosenberg
This worked so well in the war on drugs...
WTF does an artificially created political agenda manufactured to create a police state and remove citizen rights have to do in the least with internet spaceships?
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Nullity
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Posted - 2008.06.25 01:50:00 -
[1049]
Edited by: Nullity on 25/06/2008 01:50:51
Originally by: Black Leather
Originally by: Robert Rosenberg
This worked so well in the war on drugs...
WTF does an artificially created political agenda manufactured to create a police state and remove citizen rights have to do in the least with internet spaceships?
Both "The War on Drugs" and attempting to rid EVE of ISK sellers try to fight something that can't be fought?
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Robert Rosenberg
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 01:54:00 -
[1050]
Originally by: Black Leather
Originally by: Robert Rosenberg
This worked so well in the war on drugs...
WTF does an artificially created political agenda manufactured to create a police state and remove citizen rights have to do in the least with internet spaceships?
The philosophy of trying to eliminate demand rather than supply being foolish is what they have in common. Tilting against windmills or something like that...
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