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Asuka Smith
StarHunt
20
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
[Deimos, Neutron Blasters] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
585 DPS
[Deimos, 250mm Railguns] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
536 dps
Should Railguns do essentially the same damage as blasters? I think not. I think Blasters should do more and I think a 10% boost to blaster damage would just make sense. Yes this will make vindicators who warp in on you at zero stronger, but so what? It's hard enough to get to zero on someone and I don't see the problem with blasters being the king of 1v1 pvp or gank pvp. They'll still be terrible for real PVP just like now but as it is they're just in an abysmal position and there ought to be a reason to fit a blaster, which there isn't outside of ganking. |
IceDe4d
Kath's Menagerie
1
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
pls use void ammo thank you |
Asuka Smith
StarHunt
20
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
so you don't see any problem with the deimos doing 50-100 more DPS at 1km than a railgun version who is firing out to like 30? Also void impacts everything about your shots in a negative way, whereas Javeling helps your tracking even more :-/ |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
89
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Do you know what tracking is? |
Vrenth
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
33
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Posted - 2013.09.03 22:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Do you know what tracking is?
QFT, Fight that blaster boat at 1km and tell me they both do the same DPS. Your rail ship will be enjoying a fine and dandy 0 dps. |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
110
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Posted - 2013.09.03 22:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
All valid arguments aside, this is quite funny. I think it shows that they buffed medium turrets in the wrong way. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
679
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Posted - 2013.09.03 23:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Not really.
Fozzie or another balancing dev explained the reasoning behind it.
Short range guns have a bit more DPS, massive advantage in tracking, have bigger clips (less reloads is what I mean), use less capacitor, use less PWG/CPU.
Long range guns have a bit less DPS, a whole lot worse tracking, smaller clips (you gotta reload more often), use more capacitor and use more PWG/CPU.
I did two different Deimos fits for both Rail and Blaster versions, both fitted with 1600mms.
I need to use an ancillary to make the rails fit, they do 100 less DPS, have abysimal tracking compared to Ions and can't tackle.
It's all trade-offs. + the blaster Deimos isn't completely helpless vs a semi-competent frig pilot. |
Praxis Ginimic
Dark Knight Legion The Hydra Confederacy
487
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 23:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Although I would love a blaster damage buff it is a bad idea. Also, I think they do just fine in pvp. What is your definition of "real" pvp btw? I go out solo and small gang and do just fine. I am glad that rails are finally going to get a bit of use too. Another point, void works great when used right. You just need to know when to load it. |
Asuka Smith
StarHunt
20
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Posted - 2013.09.04 05:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Anyone who thinks that ganking a lone guy in your blaster boat and getting top DPS in your gang because you were at 0 on the gate when he warped through is deluded. In a close fight between gangs where BOTH sides have a chance at victory, range and speed are the deciding factors. Tactics win battles, and speed = tactics. Every second your deimos spends moving instead of shooting is eleven seconds of firing time it has to have in order to make up for the railguns that don't have to move, or which can shoot a new target whilst approaching it.
Yes, at 0 meters against a blaster boat most any ship will lose. The reason a deimos sucks however has never been due to damage, but rather projection. If you got to 0km on someone I would almost say that by necessity it wasn't a real fight. In a real fight the blaster boat burning towards someone is primary, and if they aren't then the fight was decided before it began by a superior sized, positioned, or outfitted gang.
A deimos isn't a good ship because it can get top damage in a 15 man gatecamp killing unscouted battlecruisers. |
Praxis Ginimic
Dark Knight Legion The Hydra Confederacy
487
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 05:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Not every one who uses blasters is a ganker or gate camper. I appreciate your points but if you can't figure out what tactics are needed to fight with a blaster boat then that's your bad not CCP's. I manage to get to 0 km and gain superior positioning because it was part of my battle plan. Not all tactics are played out after the fight starts you know. |
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt
20
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Posted - 2013.09.04 06:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
If your weapon is only useful in a fight you won before the battle started, then it's not useful. That's the whole preposition I'm making. I'm not saying positional isn't legitimate, but it isn't real PVP. You can't judge how good or bad a weapon is when the use of that weapon is shooting a target who is for all intents and purposes as good as dead. If you are so superior to your opponent that you have won the battle before it began, as you suggested with your "not all tactics are during the battle", then I am not drawing balance conclusions from that.
However I am happy to draw balance conclusions from battles where both sides have an even chance at winning, and the battle begins and is decided on the field. In THOSE battles the overpowered weapons and setups win, the underpowered ones lose. In anything besides a gank the Deimos is trash and so are blasters (exception: frigates with blasters or oversized hulls using small blasters against frigates/drones).
I think blasters ought to be strong enough that you actually have to be scared of them in a fight where say 10 mixed hacs, battlecruisers, and frigates are battling on both sides and are both evenly skilled and talented. This is the kind of situation a blaster boat should excel in, but in fact they are a tremendous liability considering I can hit every target on the field for a marginal decrease in paper damage (which translates to an ENORMOUS increase in real damage).
I'd like to see a battle that involved more than five people on both sides where the Deimos was MVP or even close to it.
If you would like to make an argument that the Deimos was intended as a 1v1/gank boat and isn't designed to be used in a real fight, then I can respect that but I think Gallente deserve two HAC hulls, just because the Minmatar have an unusable HAC (Muninn) doesn't mean gallente should have one as well to make it fair. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3320
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 06:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote: A deimos isn't a good ship because it can get top damage in a 15 man gatecamp killing unscouted battlecruisers.
If you can't kill anything else with the current version of Deimos, it's not the ship's fault :)
But yeah, you can still have fun in EVE, try incursions or maybe industry- we understand that not everyone is built for combat, you may lack the eye-hand coordination and IQ, age can be an issue or some are just too afraid to take the required risks. This is all ok and you don't have to blame yourself, we can't choose our genes! You can still be a contributing member of the community, PVPers need ships, modules and ammunition.
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11471
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 06:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote:
Should Railguns do essentially the same damage as blasters? I think not.
But CCP think yes.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3533864#post3533864
Medium turrets were specifically changed in this way for a reason.
1 Kings 12:11
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt
20
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Posted - 2013.09.04 07:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
That response is predicated on there being an interesting fitting challenge, which there isn't. They have made max sized guns easily fittable on every vessel (and the vessels which are not are not viable). Look at those deimos fits, what is the interesting fitting challenge? The challenge is being intelligent enough to download EFT and learn that blasters are a fool's weapon that should never be used except in such niche circumstances that if you counted them EVERY weapon would be viable if they got that same privilege.
The only thing the railgun fit does worse is solo pvp and self tackle, and the Deimos doesn't active tank so as a solo pvper it's a ganker only, and again not worth considering for game balance. |
Jonas Staal
Interstellar Booty Hunters
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 08:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote:That response is predicated on there being an interesting fitting challenge, which there isn't.
Isn't this the whole reason you use 800mm plates instead of 1600mm? |
Asuka Smith
StarHunt
20
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Posted - 2013.09.04 09:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Can't fit a 1600mm with neutrons or 250mms so again where is the interesting fitting decision? if I could run neutrons with a 1600mm or rails with an 800mm okay we have achieved at least the window trappings of balance, but the fact is I'm going to have the same tank on either.
[Deimos, 1600mm Railguns] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
510 dps @ 18+31
[Deimos, 1600mm Blasters] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
548 @ 1.9+7.5
I'll admit that the blaster boat does have 7k EHP more than the rail boat, however 7k EHP is worth less than a fart when you are at 0km and it's not a 1v1, aka a scenario where you aren't warping in to collect a kill you've already earned. I defy anyone to tell me what a blaster deimos can do that other boats can't with the exclusion of getting top of the killmail on a warp to zero gank. If the fight is even remotely close and involves more than 1-2 seconds of movement from the blaster deimos he is going to fall well behind the railgun fitting.
Furthermore, the railgun fitting is terrible as well. The eagle is better at that by far.
[Eagle, Ranged] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
482 @ 41+15km
---
That Eagle does not have drones however and will absolutely lose to a deimos at 0km, but ONLY if the fight starts at 0km. if the Deimos does not warp in on the Eagle he will lose 100% of the time because the eagle will hit MWD, hit keep at range, peg you for at least 10 to 15 seconds with railguns while you close, your drones will barely scratch his shield and if you're 1600mm fit you'll never catch him and if you're 800mm fit you'll be dead before you arrive.
The deimos is **** unless you warp in @ zero, and it's **** then anyways unless there isn't anyone shooting back with any sort of determination. If you warp in solo on an idiot I will concede that you will likely win, however that hardly speaks well to blaster balance in the grand scheme of things.
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Quontor Zarrkos
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
19
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Posted - 2013.09.04 11:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Railguns require more fitting than blasters, have very, very bad tracking and you forgot void ammo which will probably push the blasters a bit higher in damage output. Beam lasers deal more damage than pulse lasers with T1 ammo, it's just how ccp intended to balance it. I think there's a thread out there which says that 250mm rails do more damage than 425mm rails right now, but the 425's just have bigger range. |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote: [Deimos, 1600mm Railguns] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
510 dps @ 18+31
[Eagle, Ranged] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
482 @ 41+15km
Loading one with Spike and the other with antimatter and then trying to compare them is foolish or dishonest. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
682
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
If anything, slightly buff Medium ACs. That's about the only medium turrets that I would change currently. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1712
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 11:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
The changes are fine, you get a choice of range or tracking and both options are at an equal disadvantage. Besides, why do blasters need to be buffed when they were already fine and haven't changed at all? Oh god. |
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3324
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote:The only thing the railgun fit does worse is solo pvp and self tackle, and the Deimos doesn't active tank so as a solo pvper it's a ganker only, and again not worth considering for game balance.
Confirming Deimos doesn't active tank, it simply doesn't have the capacitor, signature, slot layout, resists or hull bonus to pull it off.
:(
90% of EVE-O posts are read in Cartman voice by the common screen reader programs.-á |
Ariel Dawn
F9X
1120
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote:
That Eagle does not have drones however and will absolutely lose to a deimos at 0km, but ONLY if the fight starts at 0km. if the Deimos does not warp in on the Eagle he will lose 100% of the time because the eagle will hit MWD, hit keep at range, peg you for at least 10 to 15 seconds with railguns while you close, your drones will barely scratch his shield and if you're 1600mm fit you'll never catch him and if you're 800mm fit you'll be dead before you arrive.
The deimos is **** unless you warp in @ zero, and it's **** then anyways unless there isn't anyone shooting back with any sort of determination. If you warp in solo on an idiot I will concede that you will likely win, however that hardly speaks well to blaster balance in the grand scheme of things.
TL;DR: If you fly a blaster deimos you aren't good at math, if you fly a railgun deimos then hopefully you just haven't trained for an Eagle yet. The only reason to fly a deimos however is stupidity or poorly allocated SP.
Deimos can fit a very very strong MAAR/MAR tank that tanks around 700 DPS as well as dishing out around 600 DPS with blasters. The eagle, shooting kinetic/thermal at a Deimos, is not going to do very well at all. |
Zane Lowe
Aliastra Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
If you lose to a rail eagle in a blaster deimos you really need to reconsider PVPing. Hint: it's not the skip |
Danny John-Peter
Stay Frosty.
290
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 13:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:If anything, slightly buff Medium ACs. That's about the only medium turrets that I would change currently.
This, maybe HMLs need a look in too, they seem fairly marginal these days. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1412
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 15:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:SMT008 wrote:If anything, slightly buff Medium ACs. That's about the only medium turrets that I would change currently. This, maybe HMLs need a look in too, they seem fairly marginal these days. well who would have thought.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote:Anyone who thinks that ganking a lone guy in your blaster boat and getting top DPS in your gang because you were at 0 on the gate when he warped through is "PVP" is deluded. In a close fight between gangs where BOTH sides have a chance at victory, range and speed are the deciding factors. Tactics win battles, and speed = tactics. Every second your deimos spends moving instead of shooting is eleven seconds of firing time it has to have in order to make up for the railguns that don't have to move, or which can shoot a new target whilst approaching it.
Yes, at 0 meters against a blaster boat most any ship will lose. The reason a deimos sucks however has never been due to damage, but rather projection. If you got to 0km on someone I would almost say that by necessity it wasn't a real fight. In a real fight the blaster boat burning towards someone is primary, and if they aren't then the fight was decided before it began by a superior sized, positioned, or outfitted gang.
A deimos isn't a good ship because it can get top damage in a 15 man gatecamp killing unscouted battlecruisers.
That's why you pick your fights solo.
If you are chasing somebody down that has rails and started at range, you're doing it wrong.
If we're talking about a fleet fight, and you are burning at an enemy sniper fleet at their optimals with a brawler fleet, your FC is doing it wrong.
Medium long range turrets were a joke before this patch, now they are finally viable. |
Alexander Golitsyn
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
people need to stop measuring weapon damage as dps only. tracking, weapon signature, weapon ranges and falloff ranges are equally, if not more important than dps.
people insisting on their mach doing 1k dps with autocannons when they spend the entire time at 40% - 50% falloff are idiots. are you idiots as well? no? well then stop acting like it. |
Asuka Smith
StarHunt
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
If you are talking about ANYTHING besides warping in at zero on a solo gank, you're doing it wrong if you're in a deimos. THUS the ship is ****. I'm not saying you can't warp in at zero and get a kill in it, I'm saying you can do that in any ship.
That's why blasters suck. If you aren't warping in at zero they suck. If you are warping in at whatever range you want, you're collecting a kill not getting a kill. Any ship can collect a kill you've already earned, fewer can actually earn kills. Deimos has no earning potential.
As for the eagle fitting I mislinked it, it does 480 with CNAM not spike, Spike does 280 @ approximately 160+15.
"oh but you forgot about tracking" people say, well, tbh if you can get to me at zero then I can keep you at zero transversal it's only fair. I'm much more likely in a sniper to be able to mitigate transversal in a real fight than a brawler is realistically able to warp to zero. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1717
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Then choose a ship that suits your playstyle if you can't find a playstyle that suits the ship. I'm sure plenty of other people will manage. Oh god. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote:If you are talking about ANYTHING besides warping in at zero on a solo gank, you're doing it wrong if you're in a deimos. THUS the ship is ****. I'm not saying you can't warp in at zero and get a kill in it, I'm saying you can do that in any ship.
That's why blasters suck. If you aren't warping in at zero they suck. If you are warping in at whatever range you want, you're collecting a kill not getting a kill. Any ship can collect a kill you've already earned, fewer can actually earn kills. Deimos has no earning potential.
As for the eagle fitting I mislinked it, it does 480 with CNAM not spike, Spike does 280 @ approximately 160+15.
"oh but you forgot about tracking" people say, well, tbh if you can get to me at zero then I can keep you at zero transversal it's only fair. I'm much more likely in a sniper to be able to mitigate transversal in a real fight than a brawler is realistically able to warp to zero.
So it is, of course, impossible to do other things like get warp in points from interceptors.
Why would you ever use blasters in fleet fights anyway? Every other short range weapon system / brawling ship setup is going to suffer from the same problems....
The Deimos excels in small gang work. It does pretty damn well if you just strap rails onto it. I don't understand what the issue is.
EDIT: Try the Deimos like you would fit a Zealot; 200's, MWD / booster / MAR. 572dps at 15 + 24 / 2106 MS / 190 HPS / 50m3 drone bay. |
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