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William Bradley
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 06:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not aware if these ideas have been posted or not, so with that said here goes:
As many players are aware, there is a serious problem in the game with margin trading scamming going on. However, it is not just the practice itself that is the problem, but the fact that the continued existence and prevalence of such abuse is not sensible with respect to EVE Online's in-game world itself.
For context, lets quickly note how the act of margin trading scamming is able to occur: A player trained up to use the Margin Trading skill places an order on the market, but using only a fraction of the overall isk value of the order according to the skill's level. In order for the scam to work, the player then makes sure that the isk remaining in that character's wallet is low enough that the order(s) will fail when another player attempts to complete them.
In the real world, such an action has a single term: Fraud.
However, in the in-game world, such fraud is allowed to occur and is not dealt with in any meaningful way. In light of this, I have two ideas to propose; they are not ideas which can perfectly fix the problem, but should at least make it possible to help cut down on the abuse.
Idea 1: Penalties for failed margin orders. Whenever a player puts up a margin buy order, they are asking for the financial trust of the in-game market system that when the order is to be claimed that there will at least be enough isk in the player's wallet to allow the order to complete successfully. Whenever a player breaches that trust, there should be real and meaningful consequences, penalizing the player for any and all failed margin trades they attempted.
The foremost idea in terms of what types of penalties to apply to the player would be fines, and in an amount comparative to the total isk value of the overall order but with a minimum amount in order to make sure that margin scamming is de-incentivised even for orders with very low values. The point of having a scaled fine amount like this is to try and defeat margin trade scamming at its heart - by cutting into the potential profits a person would make through scamming, making it not worth the player's time to even attempt such fraud in the first place. I'm not sure what percentage of the order would be an appropriate fine for a failed order - 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, etc - I assume the CCP devs would have a better idea in that regard.
The other idea I have for an additional penalty that could be applied, although possible less meaningful, would be a loss in the player's character's security and/or empire standings as a result of failed margin orders. Since such fraud would be seen as a (serious) crime in the eyes of the civilizations in question, a player should lose standing as would be befitting a criminal act (such as with other crimes like suicide ganks and whatnot); particularly since having the player's character end up in jail is sadly apparently not an option.
A further idea that could be done either with, or in place of, the above idea for standings loss on failed market orders would be to instead establish a new standing value for player characters: Market Standing. Such a value could be very useful, in theory, for the game's market system. As a player interacts with the market, probably through placed buy/sell orders, they would slowly accrue "market standing"; representing the amount of "trust" that player character has earned through honest interactions with the market system. In a sense, it'd be a similar notion to the idea of a merchant rating in the real world. Such a stat could be particularly useful for one's market settings, because you could then instruct the game to automatically filter out market orders below a certain standings threshold (default being 0). And, by having such a value available, if a person does in fact allow a margin order to fail they could incur a heavy hit to their market standings (potentially even driving the value into negative numbers?), with the magnitude of standings loss likely corresponding to the isk value of the failed margin order. Combined with the filtering, abusers of the market could end up with their market orders not being shown to the majority of the in-game player population, serving as an additional layer of protection for honest players.
Idea 2: Wallet locking based on currently active margin orders. While possibly an idea which would partially defeat the purpose of margin trading, I do believe it could be effective for a player's wallet to be locked according to the isk value of their highest active margin order. To clarify, what I mean by wallet locking is that it would not allow the player to buy, give, or otherwise transfer isk out of their character's wallet if the wallet's value would fall under the locked value as a result of the action. The purpose of such a system is to ensure some minimum amount of isk remains within the player's wallet to at least cover the highest value margin order they have active. That would allow for there to be a buffer of isk to at least cover their largest order, but to also increase the odds of the player's wallet being able to successfully cover most/all of their lower value margin orders that they have active. That is the key point to take away from this suggestion, because it would allow for some safety to be added to the margin trading system but without defeating the overall purpose of margin trading itself.
So, there are the ideas I've thought up lately regarding how the margin trading system could be improved to function better, be more sensible, and most importantly help protect players against the overwhelmingly prevalent problem of predatory margin trading scams that are plaguing the EVE Online universe. If you have constructive input to offer on the matter, please do so; if not, please don't. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
382
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 07:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'll be honest. My personal view is, that the skill is working fine as it is. Though increased broker fees in general would probably be a good thing.
All risks connected to the margin trading skill are just general risks of doing business in EVE. They fit perfectly well with the overall design of the game when it comes to trading.
If you have been scammed and want to have revenge, get the necessary intel and strike back with any means you deem appropriate.
If you can't be bothered, just deal with it. Remove insurance. |
Arya Regnar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 07:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
As long as the deposits don't cover the total amount this will continue to be a scam. And full deposits would cripple market marvelously for people that don't sit on trillions.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Tzarszh Capital Group Incorporated
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
While it is something of a bother, this so called 'scam' or 'exploit' only works because of greedy people who did not do their research.
For example, if i have a batch of 'stuff' like tritanium for example and i see a buy order for 5 isk per unit and i haul it over there and it fails i will have lost time, it is annoying to deal with it. However i have not lost any liquid isk on this because i still have this 'stuf' i can sell to other people. And as most of the time these reasonable high prices for normal 'stuff' i might have to concede to sell it for 4 isk where i had planned to sell at 5, but sell it i still can.
The only reason people are complaining about this is when someone takes advantage of the 'greed modifier', where the same person will sell something for a high price and sets up an even higher buy order for set module/item with minimum sell requirements.
'Victims' will fall for this when they see a fast isk generating opportunity and buy the overpriced 'stuff' and try to sell it to the buy order, which will fail due to the fact that the buyer does not have the isk required to buy the item. Leaving them with an item not worth half of what they payed for it, all to make a quick buck.
Now a 1 second glance at the market history tab will tell you if that is happening in most situations, look at how many units are actually selling per day, the moving average and whether or not the price recently was much lower than it is now. These are the market skills you need to have to be able to avoid these 'scams'.
The people setting up these 'scams' are looking for the amateur hour traders to feed them isk, and in the end the 'victim' made his/her own decision to buy the item in the first place for the exact price listed.
The skill 'Margin Trading' as it is now enables large scale industrialists to 'pre-set' buy orders when their current stock is in a manufacturing cycle or still on the market. IRL companies do this as well only use loans from banks to do this something that requires a level of trust unheard of in Eve Online.
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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
225
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 08:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Putting it in another way. You want CCP to add a not insignificant amount of game breaking new code into the game to prevent greedy people from having their arses handed to them?
Also this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3587783#post3587783 Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1800
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 12:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
I have a better proposal: Don't be greedy, and put in a little bit of effort before blindly buying up expensive things hoping to make a huge quick profit
The other suggestions in this topic are rather awful from a design point of view.
Remember folks, CCP can't patch stupid |
Arya Regnar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:I have a better proposal: Don't be greedy, and put in a little bit of effort before blindly buying up expensive things hoping to make a huge quick profit
The other suggestions in this topic are rather awful from a design point of view.
Remember folks, CCP can't patch stupid CCP can foolproof the market but chances are people are going to invent better idiots.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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SOL Ranger
Jaeger Squadron
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 13:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:As I see It this can be solved by making any escrow to be dependently shared among buy orders.
Escrow rules:
A buy order can never be set unless the resulting total amount in escrow covers its value fully. When total escrow is going below the value of a buy order your account(wallet) is charged to cover it. Failing to cover the attempted charge any buy order which is not covered by total escrow will be immediately removed the very moment this is true. One important result from this is, the highest buy order will always be the limiting factor, thus you will only engage in business on a level you can actually afford to do business in.
Minimum buy rules: Minimum buy amount can never be higher than 10% of the amount sold currently within a station. Minimum buy amount will always be adjusted(per sale) by automation, between 1 and the preferred amount only(does not change anything in the buy order, just allows a bypass when sales are low). In multi station wide buy orders the minimum buy amount is always based on the individual stations. The highest traffic hubs will allow the highest minimum amounts whilst abandoned stations will rarely allow minimum buy amounts above 1, this will also boost localized trading more as moguls will have a hard time servicing super-wide buy orders.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3585797#post3585797
Additionally I don't believe any penalties are necessary. |
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 17:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
If nothing is broken, nothing needs fixing.
Margin trading isn't broken. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
487
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 19:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Simple, fail a margin order and you lose the ISK. Consider it the same as losing pvp and your ship going boom.
After all trading is market pvp so lets put some consequences in.
And if you dont like the thought because you make such use, its the same as flying what you cant afford to lose. |
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
410
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 19:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
William Bradley wrote:I'm not aware if these ideas have been posted or not, so with that said here goes:
As many players are aware, there is a serious problem in the game with margin trading scamming going on. I wasn't aware, please do explain the problem! AFAIK when a margin trader "defaults" on his buyorder, your sell is rejected, meaning you retain your goods.
Am I mistaken? Are you able to order on margin, "default" and get the sellers' goods? Is there something I missed here? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15524
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 19:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
The only problem that needs fixing, is the poor judgement that some people make when investing their ISK. Margin trading is not broken, or in any way needing of a fix.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4066
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 22:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Simple, fail a margin order and you lose the ISK. Consider it the same as losing pvp and your ship going boom.
You already do, so what's the problem?
Don't buy things for more than they're worth. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
487
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 00:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:NEONOVUS wrote:Simple, fail a margin order and you lose the ISK. Consider it the same as losing pvp and your ship going boom. You already do, so what's the problem? Don't buy things for more than they're worth. No Im saying the dude who put up the buy order, not just the one being scammed. Scammer gets baited and killed, normal trader with no liquidity can consider it the same as roaming a wh. This way the skill is useful, but like with everything there is risk.
Also because I want to here the scammers whine about how they lose billions on people falling for their scam and how they should get total profit from it. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4066
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:No Im saying the dude who put up the buy order, not just the one being scammed. Scammer gets baited and killed, normal trader with no liquidity can consider it the same as roaming a wh. This way the skill is useful, but like with everything there is risk.
Also because I want to here the scammers whine about how they lose billions on people falling for their scam and how they should get total profit from it.
The person who attempts to sell goods doesn't lose anything.
The person with the buy order loses money.
That is already the case.
What's the problem? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1367
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 04:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
William Bradley wrote:
As many players are aware, there is a serious problem in the game with margin trading scamming going on.
There is no problem with Margin Trading. There's a problem with greed, ignorance, and illiteracy; these three things are the primary cause of anyone allowing themselves to be scammed in any fashion at all. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1801
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 07:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:RubyPorto wrote:NEONOVUS wrote:Simple, fail a margin order and you lose the ISK. Consider it the same as losing pvp and your ship going boom. You already do, so what's the problem? Don't buy things for more than they're worth. No Im saying the dude who put up the buy order, not just the one being scammed. Scammer gets baited and killed, normal trader with no liquidity can consider it the same as roaming a wh. This way the skill is useful, but like with everything there is risk. Also because I want to here the scammers whine about how they lose billions on people falling for their scam and how they should get total profit from it.
Why should he lose isk for an order that doesn't complete? Give me a single reason that isn't "because I'm butthurt and want other people to be punished for my greed and stupidity" |
William Bradley
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 01:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Having waited a while for constructive replies to occur, and seeing none, I'll begrudgingly respond to the blatently deceptive responses of margin trade scammers trying to keep a broken system broken:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:All risks connected to the margin trading skill are just general risks of doing business in EVE. They fit perfectly well with the overall design of the game when it comes to trading. No, you are wrong; completely wrong. EVE is designed as more than a mere run of the mill MMO; it's a simulated universe. Your ignorant response is purposefully ignoring that fact to gloss over the inherent problem of in-game margin trade market fraud not being dealt with as it otherwise would be in a functioning world. It is the very reason I brought up the fraud angle in the first place. Looking at the game in terms of the characters as people acting within a real-world economy, anyone perpetrating the margin trade scams would very quickly find themselves on the losing-end of heavy fines, lawsuits, and/or extensive jail sentences.
Under the currently broken system, the only people who lose due to margin trade scams are the victims of said scams; there are no real or meaningful consequences for the perpetrators of those scams, and that is the point of my suggestions. Without the protection systems that should be in place, margin trade scammers are left scott-free to bloat the market with fraudulent orders that have an exactly 0% chance of being fulfilled due to the abuse of the system's current mechanics. That is not a correctly functioning or sensible system; it's flat-out broken.
Mara Pahrdi wrote:If you have been scammed and want to have revenge, get the required intel and strike back with any means you deem appropriate.
If you can't be bothered, just deal with it. I sincerely hope that you end up the victim of a severe financial loss in the real world, so that you can feel the full weight of the ignorance of your statement. "You can get revenge" is not in any way a logical or reasonable reason to resist fixing a broken system, nor is "If you can't be bothered, just deal with it" a logical or reasonable defense for people who manipulate systems to steal from and abuse other people. Furthermore, your disgustingly disingenuous response ever so flippantly glosses over the fact that "revenge" in EVE Online is utterly meaningless; there is no way for the players to truly exact the level of justice on scammers that said scammers deserve to receive.
Arya Regnar wrote:As long as the deposits don't cover the total amount this will continue to be a scam. And full deposits would cripple market marvelously for people that don't sit on trillions. You've failed to correctly read and understand the point of my second suggestion. I did not say that full deposits should be required for all margin orders; I said that if it were done for the player's largest order, it would help provide some measure of margin trade scam protection by at least trying to ensure the largest margin order in that player's wallet will succeed, and in doing so would also provide protection for the smaller margin orders in their wallet and all without requiring the player's full set of margin orders to be covered.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh wrote:While it is something of a bother, this so called 'scam' or 'exploit' only works because of greedy people who did not do their research. No, you are wrong; the only reason the scam works is because there are no meaningful protection systems built into the market to deal with such blatant fraud. Furthermore, it's nonsense to blame the victims of a scam as being greedy when it is the greed of the scammers themselves that create the scams in the first place. If the system were set up to appropriately punish players for market fraud, there would be considerably less margin trade scamming going on, and then the system could be left for it's very real and intended purpose - to allow honest traders to increase their working capital and conduct market operations on a larger level than they otherwise would be able to. Your arguments are counter-intuitive to that point and reveal your underlying intentions; you're not interested in protecting the margin trade system for honest traders - you just want to ensure that scammers can continue to abuse the markets and players for their own gain.
Scammers wrote: Sable Moran wrote: Putting it in another way. You want CCP to add a not insignificant amount of game breaking new code into the game to prevent greedy people from having their arses handed to them?
TheGunslinger42 wrote: I have a better proposal: Don't be greedy, and put in a little bit of effort before blindly buying up expensive things hoping to make a huge quick profit
Mag's wrote: The only problem that needs fixing, is the poor judgement that some people make when investing their ISK. Margin trading is not broken, or in any way needing of a fix.
Domanique Altares wrote: There is no problem with Margin Trading. There's a problem with greed, ignorance, and illiteracy; these three things are the primary cause of anyone allowing themselves to be scammed in any fashion at all.
TheGunslinger42 wrote: Why should he lose isk for an order that doesn't complete? Give me a single reason that isn't "because I'm butthurt and want other people to be punished for my greed and stupidity"
As I said above, all of these statements are nonsense; blaming the victims of scams as greedy is nonsense since it is the greed of the scammer in the first place that creates these problems. It is highly likely that you are all just a margin trade scammers trying to prevent a broken system from being fixed. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
222
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 02:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Margin trading scams only have a single obscure counter known as clicking the price history tab. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4068
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 07:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
William Bradley wrote:anyone perpetrating the margin trade scams would very quickly find themselves on the losing-end of heavy fines, lawsuits, and/or extensive jail sentences.
Except that scamming, extortion, most kinds of theft, fraud, cons, racketeering, and a whole host of other things that are crimes in the real world are perfectly legal in EVE. As you said, EVE is a simulated universe. It has its own laws. Stop trying to apply laws from other universes to it.
Quote:it's flat-out broken.
The Failed Margin order costs the person who put it up ISK. The person who tried to sell to it is left entirely whole. They have lost nothing.
What's broken?
You lost the money when you bought the overpriced goods.
EVE's not a happy fun place where the game protects you from your own stupidity, and it's not meant to be.
Quote:I sincerely hope that you end up the victim of a severe financial loss in the real world, so that you can feel the full weight of the ignorance of your statement.
Ooohm the "I can't distinguish between real life and fantasy and therefor wish real world harm on people who disagree with me on the internet" argument.
EVE is all about DIY Justice. The real world is not. One is a video game, the other is not.
Quote:No, you are wrong; the only reason the scam works is because there are no meaningful protection systems built into the market to deal with such blatant fraud.
Once again, Fraud is legal among capsuleers. Besides that, there's a whole second tab in the market window that, if clicked on, jumps up and down and shouts "This is a Margin scam" when appropriate.
Quote:and then the system could be left for it's very real and intended purpose [Citation Needed]
Scams and Cons only work when someone allows their greed for "too good to be true" returns on their investment/time/effort/etc to prevent them from doing the (often dead simple) legwork to reveal the scam for what it's worth (in this case, you have to press a single button uncover the scam). There's an old saying in the confidence business: "You can't con an honest mark." "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
228
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 07:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
William Bradley wrote:As I said above, all of these statements are nonsense; blaming the victims of scams as greedy is nonsense
They are not victims of scams, they are victims of greed, plain and simple.
William Bradley wrote:since it is the greed of the scammer in the first place that creates these problems.
Most likely this scam is used because of the amount of tears it generates. Any and all monetary gains are just a nice bonus.
William Bradley wrote:It is highly likely that you are all just a margin trade scammers trying to prevent a broken system from being fixed.
So just because I'm opposing your silly ideas makes me a scammer? Sterling argumentation :) Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
517
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
In IRL, there are severe penalties if you can't cover your margins...
There should always be a certain % of the ISK in escrow as long as the buy order is up. When a margin call comes and they can't cover, this ISK should be lost to them forever.
Just as we have "security standings", perhaps we should have "credit ratings" Fail to cover a margin -> hit to your credit rating.
Margin trading would require the trader to have a positive credit rating. The higher your credit rating, the less you need to put in escrow.
Also, buy orders (maybe sell orders too) would list the credit rating of the toon who set it up |
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals Market and Contract PVP
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Margin trading is fine as it is. Every now and then an angry highsec dweller comes along and cries about life not being fair, about there not being anything in the "SupriseBoxes", about his 15 bil atron being ganked outside jita 4-4, about a bag of rare crap bought in local not really being worth 2 bil on the market buy orders.
Eve isnt fair and it never should be fair. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
80
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
It isn't broken and the scams are so obvious it is painful. Especially the ones that spam in local with the scam . It doesn't need fixing and people that lose isk to this deserve it. The skill is required for most traders to function efficiently. If a "fix" is really needed then maybe lose a percentage of the escrow for a failed market order. This would at least let us punish the noisy spamming guys by failing their orders for them but likely leave the subtler ones in place. At 5-10% of escrow posted would maybe also add a level to market PVP by trying to catch out overextended traders by calling their bluff on how many buy orders they have up. Anyway it is fine as it is and if they change it to what i have just written that is also fine. Fixing it to protect the idiots who fall for this is not fine though. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
123
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
You want less Scam? Improve the UI so can Identity scams faster (if your able to read of course). |
Iorga Eeta
Hekatonkheires Industries
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Really, you want a measure of creditworthiness of the buyers. Is this a margin buy order? Has that buyer defaulted on other buy orders?
Unfortunately, the market system doesn't tell you whom your buying and selling from before you purchase or sell an item. But a flag on the buy order, like "MO" or some such would be a good indicator.
First, though, you simply shouldn't trust any order that has a minimum buy amount greater than 1.
After that, you can start your own website, like eve-scammers.com, or something, and allow people to post buyer and selling ratings and report bad buy and sell orders. |
Infiltrator2112
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
23
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Training Common-Sense to level 2 should fix your problem with this "scam".
It is easy enough to avoid beeing scammed by checking the market details on the specific item either using the ingame market and out-of-game tools. No need to fix what isn't broken. |
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Iorga Eeta wrote: First, though, you simply shouldn't trust any order that has a minimum buy amount greater than 1.
Why? If someone is buying x of something across a region they might not want to pick it up in small quantities. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15524
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
William Bradley wrote:Scammers wrote: Sable Moran wrote: Putting it in another way. You want CCP to add a not insignificant amount of game breaking new code into the game to prevent greedy people from having their arses handed to them?
TheGunslinger42 wrote: I have a better proposal: Don't be greedy, and put in a little bit of effort before blindly buying up expensive things hoping to make a huge quick profit
Mag's wrote: The only problem that needs fixing, is the poor judgement that some people make when investing their ISK. Margin trading is not broken, or in any way needing of a fix.
Domanique Altares wrote: There is no problem with Margin Trading. There's a problem with greed, ignorance, and illiteracy; these three things are the primary cause of anyone allowing themselves to be scammed in any fashion at all.
TheGunslinger42 wrote: Why should he lose isk for an order that doesn't complete? Give me a single reason that isn't "because I'm butthurt and want other people to be punished for my greed and stupidity"
As I said above, all of these statements are nonsense; blaming the victims of scams as greedy is nonsense since it is the greed of the scammer in the first place that creates these problems. It is highly likely that you are all just a margin trade scammers trying to prevent a broken system from being fixed. I don't even have the margin trader skill injected, let alone use it on any character I use.
Your fundamental problem seems to be your lack of understanding how this scam works, therefore missing the ways that are already available to avoid being caught out.
Price checking an item, is not gained by taking the over priced buy order as the correct value of an item. You need more knowledge of an items price, gained from the market in different regions. If you only take the buy order as the indicator, or choose not to gain more knowledge, you are to blame.
The actual scam relies upon you buying the overpriced items. So if you do have the knowledge required to make investments, you would avoid such over priced items. But being caught out, simply means you paid over the odds for something, which was your fault. You still have those items and can sell them, but at a loss. A loss which was your fault, due to lack of knowledge.
The whole point is that those who dive into these deals, do so thinking they are going to make a quick buck. A quick buck off someone, who has seemingly sold an item for less then someone else seems to want to pay for it. It seems that greed for some in these situations, takes precedence over knowledge. This is their undoing and they only have themselves to blame.
Oh and Eve is a harsh dark universe, please don't try to compare it to real life because that's ridiculous.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
882
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Posted - 2013.09.10 15:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
William Bradley wrote: In the real world, such an action has a single term: Fraud.
Man, what country do you live in that saying you want to buy something then not buying it is fraud? In the civilised world that is a customers privilege.
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