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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Zomgnomnom
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
11
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Posted - 2013.09.19 06:49:00 -
[91] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:
Pretty much this.
Yeah, the covert Sabre is just a longstanding joke of mine (its always frustrating jumping blackops BS around but then having to burn the dictor 20 jumps through gates to meet up again) and should never happen. .
Yeah, I feel yah there.
Maybe a very small generator to be fitted on t3's with a super short range and huge side effects could work or something but a full on cloaky dictor would be stupidly over powered. Or maybe even a focused infinite point on a bomber with a 10km range or something, to help force it into Smart bomb range, just to give the blops groups a CHANCE to pin down a super until the cavalry arrives. I dunno, I like the idea of the possibility being there. I just don't think there is a good way to do it without Shadoo laughing himself senseless and stationing PL blops/dictor groups all over the map. |
Capqu
Love Squad
243
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Posted - 2013.09.19 10:19:00 -
[92] - Quote
black ops are absolutely fine as they are, they already have a multitude of uses and several innate weaknesses which a cloaky, jumping battleship needs http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Renegade Alliance
91
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Posted - 2013.09.19 10:41:00 -
[93] - Quote
Capqu wrote:black ops are absolutely fine as they are, they already have a multitude of uses and several innate weaknesses which a cloaky, jumping battleship needs
CCP, members of the CSM, and a large number of capsuleers would disagree with you. It's not if the black ops battleships are going to get rebalanced, it's how and when. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Gvu
Alerion Corporation
0
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Posted - 2013.09.19 19:55:00 -
[94] - Quote
+1 for the thread
+1 for the effort that Jayne Fillon put on this topic |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
319
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Posted - 2013.09.19 21:02:00 -
[95] - Quote
Before we make new BLOPs I think the current ones need some love.
However, I wouldn't oppose two lines of BLOPs, EWAR/DPS and Bridging, I just think that we need work out the current ones first. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Renegade Alliance
94
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Posted - 2013.09.19 22:46:00 -
[96] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Before we make new BLOPs I think the current ones need some love.
However, I wouldn't oppose two lines of BLOPs, EWAR/DPS and Bridging, I just think that we need work out the current ones first.
I agree with this completely -
Although I should have made it clear, my priorities were simply making sure the shortfalls of the class were well known and understood.
How they are fixed is of course CCP's discretion and choice, however I couldn't help but at least offer some suggestions or alternatives to the current iteration of black ops. I could be wildly off the mark of the intended direction, and that's okay.
Finally, due to the quote from the CSM minutes regarding the creation of a second line of black ops, I decided to speculate on what sort of role that ship could possibly. Admittedly, this was wild speculation based on the precedent set by the introduction of the bastion module for marauders, but has unfortunately been the focus of this post for the most part.
Can't wait for the official announcement! Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency JIHADASQUAD
253
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Posted - 2013.09.20 00:27:00 -
[97] - Quote
As a regular user of Black Ops in low sec I am not convinced that any change is needed. Ever since the range and fuel buff and covert cyno for T3s, they have found good use as gankers of all size targets. Hit and run (MJD+Cloak+Jump Out) with heavy dps ships is fun.
What people fail to consider is if you have slaves plugged in, you're pretty much on par with a regular BS without slaves which means you're actually dropping proper battleships on people and not some paper spaceships everyone seems to think. Yes I realise this is a hefty price for some but really, so what?
Sure, I welcome some tinkering with this class but I fear CCP will just go ahead and obliterate the niche they fill right now. As I bitter vet I can't even keep track of changes that were made to screw over working things to please those that refuse the see that stuff is actually working if you're willing to work at it.
Just putting my thoughts down, not picking on anyone. Balance welcome but not at the cost of obliterating their current use as amazing gank and flee ships. I hope they "rebalance" them like the Absolution... pretty much they same ship as before change |
Dring Dingle
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
64
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Posted - 2013.09.20 15:01:00 -
[98] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Jayne Fillon wrote: TL;DR black ops are lame and in need of fixing, and I wrote some stuff about how to fix them.
Dear Sir, I find your remarks regarding BO Battleships lame. According to what I saw on your killboard you haven't even tried using BO BS in combat. All those above mentioned in kind of irrelevant. Look here: Black Ops battleships are meant to be a snaky bastards created for catching capitals with pants down under safety of cynojammers etc. They fulfill their role very well. God damn they even kill a motherships (at least I managed to catch and kill it with my BO gang). Those ships performance is outstanding when it comes to brawling. Sins for example are most BO for having good amount of slots. There's variety of fits that ship can use. Redeemer has a clear role of high dps turret platform that is meant to jump in, melt any target it locks and get out. Panther is amazing ship to fly coz of it's bonuses. Shield fitted Panther is amazing ship, combination of speed and DPS on it is amazing. It is very nice this for bumping 2x remote repping carriers from each other for example, has nice utility highs for fitting 2x heavy neuts. Widow is more used in smaller BO gangs, only downside of that ship is heavy requirement of BO 5, with that skill ship jams pretty much everything and also can provide around 900 DPS. After introduction of MJDs and BO jump range buff they became even better. Those ships do not require any kind of changes. If you don't see blob of those ships that doesn't mean ship is broken. So once again those ships are not meant for blob warfare, they do are not lame, they really do their job well. As for bridging BO - You never jump bridging BO on target unless u want to lose it. Bridging BO has specific fit and requires different style of piloting. If you really want to see strength of Black Ops Bbattleships feel free to contact me, I will provide you numerous examples of ganks, small and medium gang engagements (over 30 man in hostile gang) with explanations, killmails and some video footage.
Finally someone with blops experience ! |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Renegade Alliance
94
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Posted - 2013.09.20 15:44:00 -
[99] - Quote
Dring Dingle wrote:Finally someone with blops experience !
I already addressed this post further up. If you have specific ideas or disagreements to what I've written I'd love to hear them.
Furthermore, cyaron wars, I'm still interested in the videos if you could send them to me. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
General Jack Cosmo
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.09.25 15:05:00 -
[100] - Quote
i think the widow should have the same torp attributes as the manticore! it needs fast torps to get to the target in time !!!!!!! otherwise give it rails! With lord Xanex by my side I can do anything (Atleast with a smile)-á!!!! |
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Capqu
Love Squad
282
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Posted - 2013.10.02 16:00:00 -
[101] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:Capqu wrote:black ops are absolutely fine as they are, they already have a multitude of uses and several innate weaknesses which a cloaky, jumping battleship needs CCP, members of the CSM, and a large number of capsuleers would disagree with you. It's not if the black ops battleships are going to get rebalanced, it's how and when.
well they probably didn't use them on a daily basis pretty much since the jump range change
you know, unlike us
anyone who actually uses blops knows they are fine as they are, and are probably scared of people like you and the csm (one of which told me recently bombs have a 10km radius) suggesting changes to ships they have no idea how to use http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Cyaron wars
SkREW CREW Local Down
59
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Posted - 2013.10.02 16:22:00 -
[102] - Quote
Capqu wrote:Jayne Fillon wrote:Capqu wrote:black ops are absolutely fine as they are, they already have a multitude of uses and several innate weaknesses which a cloaky, jumping battleship needs CCP, members of the CSM, and a large number of capsuleers would disagree with you. It's not if the black ops battleships are going to get rebalanced, it's how and when. well they probably didn't use them on a daily basis pretty much since the jump range change you know, unlike us anyone who actually uses blops knows they are fine as they are, and are probably scared of people like you and the csm (one of which told me recently bombs have a 10km radius) suggesting changes to ships they have no idea how to use
^This |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
147
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Posted - 2013.10.02 16:58:00 -
[103] - Quote
Blops version of rokh and Hyperion thank you please :) |
Freako X
Doom Inc
111
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Posted - 2013.10.02 22:46:00 -
[104] - Quote
I'd like to see covert ops/recon to include:
1. Combat Frigate.
2. Battle Cruisers - Use T3 models and have them be the 'BS sized covert ops' since they are so squishy.
3. Black Ops BS - make viable for bridge and pew. - needs improvement.
4. Cruiser and Frigate logistic ships.
5. Destroyer - interdiction.
I am a firm believer that these ships should not have the same dps/HP of updated T1 versions. Their advantage is in stealth. Oh, lastly ... no drones please. |
Shamus en Divalone
Dip Dip Potatoe Chip
4
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Posted - 2013.10.09 07:16:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jayne Fillion, this has to be the best put thread I have read on here so far and I do hope something is done very soon as I approach the end of the skill path for Black Ops.
The winter expansion would be a perfect time for some little tweaks for sure.
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Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
187
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Posted - 2013.10.09 12:16:00 -
[106] - Quote
Freako X wrote:I'd like to see covert ops/recon to include:
1. Combat Frigate.
2. Battle Cruisers - Use T3 models and have them be the 'BS sized covert ops' since they are so squishy.
3. Black Ops BS - make viable for bridge and pew. - needs improvement.
4. Cruiser and Frigate logistic ships.
5. Destroyer - interdiction.
I am a firm believer that these ships should not have the same dps/HP of updated T1 versions. Their advantage is in stealth. Oh, lastly ... no drones please.
I'd say yes but then a big no to homogenizing EVE warfare. Not everything has to be the "logi dictor dps" thing. As cool as a dedicated logi (like the Etana) would be, same for dictor, they'd sort of break things.
Black Ops warfare is, on its own, unique - best representation of it would be the bomber which boasts staggering (for a frigate) firepower and is really squishy. Most of those ships should lean towards hit&run attacks, not lasting presence on the battlefield. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet?
Covert pilots unite! Safer working conditions, less accidental limb loss due to unfortunate Cyno accidents! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=258986 |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
117
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Posted - 2013.10.09 13:04:00 -
[107] - Quote
Trii Seo wrote:Freako X wrote:I'd like to see covert ops/recon to include:
1. Combat Frigate.
2. Battle Cruisers - Use T3 models and have them be the 'BS sized covert ops' since they are so squishy.
3. Black Ops BS - make viable for bridge and pew. - needs improvement.
4. Cruiser and Frigate logistic ships.
5. Destroyer - interdiction.
I am a firm believer that these ships should not have the same dps/HP of updated T1 versions. Their advantage is in stealth. Oh, lastly ... no drones please. I'd say yes but then a big no to homogenizing EVE warfare. Not everything has to be the "logi dictor dps" thing. As cool as a dedicated logi (like the Etana) would be, same for dictor, they'd sort of break things. Black Ops warfare is, on its own, unique - best representation of it would be the bomber which boasts staggering (for a frigate) firepower and is really squishy. Most of those ships should lean towards hit&run attacks, not lasting presence on the battlefield.
A few notes -
Looks as though the new SoE frigate is going to be a armor tanking drone boat, which can use a black ops jump portal (unconfirmed). So that pretty much covers "combat frigate" - and yes, I plan to abuse the hell out of it until it is inevitably nerfed or prevented from using the portal.
I don't think the battlecruisers need to be given covops capability - I'd like to see this effort focused onto improving the potential application of strategic cruisers with the covert ops cloak. At the very least made into something other than just a worse version of the non-cloaky strat cruisers.
Black Ops - Well, this entire thread bears witness to my opinions of black ops.
Logistics ships - covert ops and specifically black ops are meant to be hit and run, attacking targets that are not suspecting to be attacked. Having scalable logistics capabilities would make this overpowered and broken, the current meta of no logi limits the scale of engagement that these can be used in, and keeps them firmly planted in the realm of guerrilla warfare. This is a good thing.
Interdictors - this is something that I personally support, and really really really want... but don't think it should or will ever happen. At least not with a bubble launcher like on the current T2 interdictors. The ability to have a bomber contingent in place, and then warp a cloaky interdictor to the center of a fleet would be abused beyond measure. What I would like to see is some way for a ship within the covert/black ops ship tree to be able to point supers. It's silly that we can't kill super capitals right now, even if they were to warp to a gate. Without focused interdiction, our targets will forever be capital and below.
This (and the logistics idea) is summarized quite well by Trii Seo in that:
Quote:Most of those ships should lean towards hit&run attacks, not lasting presence on the battlefield. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
287
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Posted - 2013.10.09 14:12:00 -
[108] - Quote
The SoE battleship is rumoured to have covert ops cloak capability. Does this change anything? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
117
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Posted - 2013.10.09 17:04:00 -
[109] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:The SoE battleship is rumoured to have covert ops cloak capability. Does this change anything?
Until I see specifications, no.
I assume that the SoE battleship would be more geared towards exploration, and less towards combat and certainly not jump portals.
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
187
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Posted - 2013.10.10 08:04:00 -
[110] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote: Looks as though the new SoE frigate is going to be a armor tanking drone boat, which can use a black ops jump portal (unconfirmed). So that pretty much covers "combat frigate" - and yes, I plan to abuse the hell out of it until it is inevitably nerfed or prevented from using the portal.
Unless CCP takes a serious look at their current iteration, there will be a lot of tears. I like the idea of Astero really, it fills a really empty niche in black ops and that's an all-around combat frig.
That said, I also feel like giving it 2 high slots + 2 turret slots is kind of comical considering that one of them will always be a cloaking device. Droneboat or not - most droneboats out there carry guns too (Tristan, Ishkur, Worm).
And yeah it's been confirmed that it can blops portal - IIRC, even the game parameter that regulates whether or not a ship can fit a covert cloak also regulates bridging. So if it can covert cloak, it can bridge.
As much as I'll love to use it as a pimped out version of my Battlebuzzard for site runners (sh, you've never seen me say it!) my eyes are on the Stratios - it looks like it could pack a hell of a punch, and I wouldn't cross a shield nanostratios out with 5/5/5 slots.
Anyway, back to the black ops thing:
What I wouldn't like to see is a complete streamlining of the fitting and pretty much a shove towards "one right fit". Let's take a look at Panther for instance - many consider it to be horribad, panther pilots insist it's the best blops ever and for good reasons.
- Can be Arty fit or Auto fit. Both setups do preform. - Plentiful utility slots (3 - cloak, gives 2) make it an excellent platform for neuting and shooting. No other blops can fit a rack of guns and spice it up with 2 heavy neuts. - Can be shield and armor tanked, each setup preserving the idea of its tank - Armor panthers have bigger buffer, unquestionably. Shieldpanthers are squishier but drop a mightier hammer. - There's of course pig fitting, with reps/smarties and cargo expanders.
That said, the gank potential isn't exactly overwhelming and the speed bonus - as pointed out earlier - is wasted, especially in the era of MJDs (those are often lifesavers on black ops bs's). The bonuses are indeed hodgepodge and blops in general could use a look at their fitting specs because ohgod combat fitting some of them tends to scream "faction mods with reduced cpu or gtfo".
That and a scanres bonus, as mentioned a few times. Because hey, they're battleships already - with cloak they target outrageously slow. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet?
Covert pilots unite! Safer working conditions, less accidental limb loss due to unfortunate Cyno accidents! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=258986 |
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Zelnor Smith
Lucid Dreamers WHY so Seri0Us
0
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Posted - 2013.10.15 15:49:00 -
[111] - Quote
If someone wants to send me a Model Sin id love you forever.... i'm just saying... pretty please! |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
327
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Posted - 2013.10.15 18:15:00 -
[112] - Quote
If Marauders are any indication, expect the rebalance to go in the opposite direction. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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