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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
79
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:18:00 -
[391] - Quote
No matter how you put it, if someone tells me how they like to grief and scam in game and relishes in the response, I could not force myself to trust someone like that.
It's not like poker, where everybody antes up in a central pot and bluffing about your hand is the name of the game.
You know what truly does entertain me is how people try to justify themselves. They are like that head bad guy from "V For Vendetta" when, in the end, they are begging for their lives.
Look, if you grief, scam, and gank, don't try to justify it with "it's a game" or the usual old platitudes. Sometimes I wonder if that's part of the game for some people, like living the lie is an extra bonus over getting away with it.
As for people who say they will pillage and gank IRL, I only wish they would. Then we can tell them apart from those who don't, and there won't be any clones.
Leading me to the last part regarding "uber l33tness" of PVPers - if you are so hard core, then petition for a no-clone server.
Heck I would love to see a "live fast die young" option where you get supercharged SP learning rates but no clone (as if your huge brain is too advanced), to be decided on character creation and unchangeable. If you can romp through lowsec with a char like that and show a long history then I will let you take my sister home.
Otherwise you are just playing a space game like the rest of us and all else is fluff - fluff that is gone once the computer is off. |
Rod Blaine
Gilded Goose Brokerage
4
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:23:00 -
[392] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Otherwise you are just playing a space game like the rest of us and all else is fluff - fluff that is gone once the computer is off.
ofc, as goed for all those invested in bearing it up in empire. Difference being the perception of what is fun. Nothing inherently wrong about being a sad ass bastard in a game. I've met guys in RL that i know from this game, and believe me, griefer ingame ~!= bastard oog. It's just about how serieous you take your ****. And if you ask me, life's biggest losers are those that need to take everything too damn serious, and end up being too tightassed to enjoy it. |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
33
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:26:00 -
[393] - Quote
this thread has began to quickly unravel with people popping in to give their 2 isk on the subject.
Oh well, was good while it lasted. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
941
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:28:00 -
[394] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:No matter how you put it, if someone tells me how they like to grief and scam in game and relishes in the response, I could not force myself to trust someone like that.
How about if I tell you that I don't "grief and scam", but I very much enjoy playing a game where the level of freedom is such that it's possible?
For me, having real people play the villains, along with the freedom to play a villain myself should I so wish, adds a depth to this game that makes it far more 'real' to me. That's why I defend that freedom so passionately. If nothing else, if we have no choice to be bad, then the choice to be good is meaningless.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
941
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:30:00 -
[395] - Quote
Artemis Dagon wrote: To the guy who said he'd go out and pillage among over things if there were no laws or consequences IRL. Can'ttellifsrs.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Kelsi Corynn
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:36:00 -
[396] - Quote
For further reading check out:
Identity formation Morality Simulation Game |
Zethika
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:43:00 -
[397] - Quote
I don't think it's inherently immoral to blow up someone else's ship, consent or not.
This is a game of power, money and most definitely back stabbing. I don't find it immoral when a spy blows up my turret, teleporter and dispenser in tf2, that's real time invested there, lost forever to further his cause! Of course the timescale doesn't follow, yet I think of it just the same, it's how the game is.
EvE IS meant to be a place where people get ganged up and murdered, your claim that this isn't a valid argument is bonkers, frankly. It's not like this have been somehow hidden from you, you knew exactly what you signed up for, had you watched the trailers or even read a slimmer of these very forums.
That said, we come to what this thread has somewhat derailed into, the socail interaction that follows. Again I think the word immoral is ill-suited for what is going here.
Some people act like d-bags behind the veil of anonymity, that is the basal effect of the internet. Frankly, if you feel the need to gloat, demean or something similiar just because you won some utterly onesided fight, it says loads about your character or at the very least, the state your mind is in. Heck it's the same in the few truly even fights or an upscale fight!
I think this is a much better gauge of their personality than them blowing up my helpless mining ship. Yet I still wouldn't call it immoral, it's just low, the act of a person I would have nothing to do with.
There is no reason why both parties couldn't have fun with blowing eachother up. The problem is that there are some people who think this in any way shape or form is a singleplayer game. As there is those who feel the need to be d-bags after a fight and revel in the fury of their counterpart. Both are silly types of persons but none are immoral.
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Ana Vyr
100
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:49:00 -
[398] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote: While the fact that the person is immoral may or may not be true, their actions in game cannot be used to make any determination about their moral character IRL.
That right there is so much bull. That's a fine rationalization to justify any action in game. You don't think that folks who taunt you to collect your "tears" have a few issues outside the game? That's just foolish.
edit-spelling |
SilentSkills
Estrale Frontiers
14
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:50:00 -
[399] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:This is a role playing game. The role I am playing is that of a space-douche.
you smell funny bruh |
Cyprus Black
82nd Assault Fleet
68
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Posted - 2011.11.01 19:55:00 -
[400] - Quote
I do it in eve because it's considered a bannable offense in all other MMO's. Plus it closer mimics real life behavior. Players are civil in other MMO's because they're forced to be through the heavy hands of the GM's. That's not how the real world works. In the real world we're civil to each other because it benefits us to do so. I am neither fanboy nor flamer. I am logic, dispassionate and cruel. |
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Abrazzar
269
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:05:00 -
[401] - Quote
Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey. Wait. Wait a moment!
Define: Morality!
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
33
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:12:00 -
[402] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote: I'll repeat it again: If you enjoy making players miserable in-game then this enjoyment is REAL, not in-game or make-believe. If you enjoy causing misery and pain to people (ie collect tears), regardless of the tool you use to proyect your intentions (ie a video game) then you are a sadist. You can claim that your feelings are in-game all you want. But fact is that your enjoyment in causing pain is real (not pretend).
I get your point man, and most people here agree with you. But what are you arguing here and how does that relate to the original question? Like i said earier
Karl Planck wrote:the stories you read on C&P lead you to the conclusion that most of the ppl on their are asshats. This may be true, but you can't prove it. Are they posting to elicit a response from their victims to gain tactical advantage (no moral qualms)? Or are the sitting their beating it while ppl post threads about how sad they are that they lost everything they had? You CAN NOT tell the difference within the context of the game.
yea, they could be jerks. I bet there are a lot of ppl who play this game who are very immoral. But it has nothing to do with the gameplay. Even their gameplay mimics their personality you can't go as far as the OP (and many others) have tried to take this. How you act in game has really no bearing on how you act IRL.
This is different than what you get out of the game (sadistic pleasure in your example). This is different than why you play the game (all the arguements about acting out our true selves, etc). Yea, it might in fact show up in their game play, but you can't work the other direction. It is illogical to derive someone's behavior from how they act in game, which was the original assertion. |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
33
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:13:00 -
[403] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey. Wait. Wait a moment! Define: Morality!
LOL don't even go there. I am pretty sure this whole thread was going off the the idea that ethics exist in some fashion and the self to which those ethics apply is well defined.
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Jita Alt666
443
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:16:00 -
[404] - Quote
Morality.
A concept invented by humans to allow one to justify ones own decision as superior to others. |
Ana Vyr
100
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:22:00 -
[405] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote: It is illogical to derive someone's behavior from how they act in game, which was the original assertion.
I disagree. Matrix has the right of this in my view. A sadist in game is a sadist out of game. Whether you behave as if you derive pleasure from the suffering of other people is irrelevant...you do derive that pleasure, or you wouldn't do it to begin with, anywhere.
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:25:00 -
[406] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:Karl Planck wrote: It is illogical to derive someone's behavior from how they act in game, which was the original assertion. I disagree. Matrix has the right of this in my view. A sadist in game is a sadist out of game. Whether you behave as if you derive pleasure from the suffering of other people is irrelevant...you do derive that pleasure, or you wouldn't do it to begin with, anywhere.
Unless the person in question is some kind of an masochist.
He does wrong, he perceive it as such and he internally suffers by his action. Yet he chose to do it. Why ?
Could be masochist..
Could be fear from being unable to make choice, and going against one personality to prove he can. Then he can actually feel good about the result, caused by his success to make such choice. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
228
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:41:00 -
[407] - Quote
This is an aspect of Eve that I find fascinating! Eve turns most folks into real asshats.
In life all we have is our time. If I am serious about spending 40 hours a week building up something in a game and some asshat comes over and 'spodes it becuase "its fun" that person has harmed me in exactly the same manner as if they had destroyed something I might have spent 40 hous in RL working to buy, like a car.
But most folks in Eve aren't smart enough to understand that so the lack of immediate consequence lets them sleep at night as though the didn't do something really evil.
So I would encourage all you Eve griefers to step up your game! Start giving RL crime a try! The rush should be even bigger and if you are even half way smart the lack of consequence should be identical. If you take away my 40 hours of life work product it hurts me the same either way.
I anxiously await inane rebutals from immoral Eve griefers that haven't figured out what life really is, just a fixed amount of time in the 'verse to spend how you choose, being moral or an asshat.
Issler |
Jita Alt666
444
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:42:00 -
[408] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:Karl Planck wrote: It is illogical to derive someone's behavior from how they act in game, which was the original assertion. I disagree. Matrix has the right of this in my view. A sadist in game is a sadist out of game. Whether you behave as if you derive pleasure from the suffering of other people is irrelevant...you do derive that pleasure, or you wouldn't do it to begin with, anywhere.
Human beings are emotionally plurist. We engage in a cross section of emotional states at different times of our lives, different times of the year, different times of the lunar cycles, different times of the day.
To say sadist in game = sadist out of game is a poor attempt at rationale deconstruction of the actual events occurring.
Sadistic tendancies come and go. Feelings of unqualified vindictiveness and the derision of pleasure from that state are not fixed entities. Like feeling sad, or content, feeling sadistic depends on many variables.
The hypothesis that individuals with higher levels of sadistic behaviour within the game perimeters have higher levels of sadistic tendencies in the real world may hold water. We do not know this it has never been satisfactorily tested.
To pose a different but aligned hypothesis, Eve Online game play allows a higher level of implementation of sadistic tendencies than real life. This allowance of sadistic behaviour leads to greater implementation from individuals who are increasingly liable to expression of said tendencies.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
944
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:43:00 -
[409] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey. Wait. Wait a moment! Define: Morality!
"Things I like." Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
944
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 20:44:00 -
[410] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:This is an aspect of Eve that I find fascinating! Eve turns most folks into real asshats.
Just like football turns people into robbers. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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Abrazzar
270
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:45:00 -
[411] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey. Wait. Wait a moment! Define: Morality! "Things I like." No, no, no!
It's thing *I* like. You're wrong!
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Jita Alt666
444
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Posted - 2011.11.01 20:47:00 -
[412] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:This is an aspect of Eve that I find fascinating! Eve turns most folks into real asshats.
In life all we have is our time. If I am serious about spending 40 hours a week building up something in a game and some asshat comes over and 'spodes it becuase "its fun" that person has harmed me in exactly the same manner as if they had destroyed something I might have spent 40 hous in RL working to buy, like a car.
But most folks in Eve aren't smart enough to understand that so the lack of immediate consequence lets them sleep at night as though the didn't do something really evil.
So I would encourage all you Eve griefers to step up your game! Start giving RL crime a try! The rush should be even bigger and if you are even half way smart the lack of consequence should be identical. If you take away my 40 hours of life work product it hurts me the same either way.
I anxiously await inane rebutals from immoral Eve griefers that haven't figured out what life really is, just a fixed amount of time in the 'verse to spend how you choose, being moral or an asshat.
Issler
Taking the bait. Eve Online is a game. The time you spend on the game is not an investment for virtual goods. It is entertainment. If some one destroys the virtual goods you have built up, they are not destroying the product of your time. They are not damaging you in real life.
Your second sentence is says a lot. Quote:Eve turns people into real asshats. Eve has been intentionally designed that way. It is a mechanic of the game.
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Ana Vyr
100
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:01:00 -
[413] - Quote
Is your time worthless to you?
You could argue that playing EvE is a waste of time, and thus any time spent there is worthless.
I would not agree there though. I play EvE to relax and excercise my mind. Thus, my time spent in EvE is some of the more valuable time I have to spend in a given day.
If I spend 20 hours of that time earning the ISK for a Hulk, it gives that Hulk a personal value to me that you can't say doesn't exist.
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Chelone
Outside The Asylum
2
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:04:00 -
[414] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote:[quote=Chelone]Let me illustrate the difference in case it isn't clear. I have a child. That child is a serial killer. I think their actions are immoral and cut of communications with them and remove them from my will.
My other child plays eve. He robs me blind and pods my in my 5bil isk pod. I am broke and a sad panda. I think their actions are immoral and cut of communications with them and remove them from my will.
Anything out of place their between those two examples?
Yep. The same thing out of place in all of the examples being used to pretend morals don't matter. It's a ridiculous and laughable comparison that shouldn't mislead anyone over the mental age of 8.
Waiting for the griefers to proceed to reference ****** so the thread can be over with already. |
cyka776
6
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:05:00 -
[415] - Quote
most rl morality is the product of biological prompts imo
in eve there is a whole different set of prompts
the mixture of the two often has interesting (if not appealing) results |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
228
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:07:00 -
[416] - Quote
Jita Alt666 wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:This is an aspect of Eve that I find fascinating! Eve turns most folks into real asshats.
In life all we have is our time. If I am serious about spending 40 hours a week building up something in a game and some asshat comes over and 'spodes it becuase "its fun" that person has harmed me in exactly the same manner as if they had destroyed something I might have spent 40 hous in RL working to buy, like a car.
But most folks in Eve aren't smart enough to understand that so the lack of immediate consequence lets them sleep at night as though the didn't do something really evil.
So I would encourage all you Eve griefers to step up your game! Start giving RL crime a try! The rush should be even bigger and if you are even half way smart the lack of consequence should be identical. If you take away my 40 hours of life work product it hurts me the same either way.
I anxiously await inane rebutals from immoral Eve griefers that haven't figured out what life really is, just a fixed amount of time in the 'verse to spend how you choose, being moral or an asshat.
Issler Taking the bait. Eve Online is a game. The time you spend on the game is not an investment for virtual goods. It is entertainment. If some one destroys the virtual goods you have built up, they are not destroying the product of your time. They are not damaging you in real life. Your second sentence is says a lot. Quote:Eve turns people into real asshats. Eve has been intentionally designed that way. It is a mechanic of the game.
I agree that Eve is designed to bring out the worst in folks. I find it fascinating that it works so well. And you will never find me saying that has to change.
But tell me this, OK, so if you blow up my POS that's OK becuse its "not real" even though I may have hundreds of hours spent it doesn't matter. But vandalizing my car is bad because it exists in "RL" and is somehow worth more? Even if they take the same amount of my pool of time away? What if I had a hobby of building elaborate replicas of Eve space ships with popcicle sticks? Would it be OK to smash those? I don't "need" them and they aren't worth anything in RL.
You need to take a few philosophy classes and then spend a few years pondering life and what we percieve as reality (some physics classes related to quantum realities would be good too) then come back and tell me in a reality were all we have is finite time why they are any different.
Of course doing that might take away from time gate camping or sucide ganking miners.
Issler |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1382
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:10:00 -
[417] - Quote
who says I left it at the door |
Handsome Hussein
83
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:12:00 -
[418] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:If I spend 20 hours of that time earning the ISK for a Hulk, it gives that Hulk a personal value to me that you can't say doesn't exist. That makes destroying it all the sweeter.
You're playing a game where anything you fly can be destroyed and you are complaining and judging people specifically because they are destroying those things. You really need to be playing another game.
I buy a PLEX every so often and also pay a subscription. I don't have a lot of time to grind and I don't make a lot of money. OTOH, I don't take it hard if I lose a ship, or multiple ships. If I ran out of ships on both accounts, I would buy another PLEX or tough it out in a n00b ship until I could afford a frigate. This is all part of the game.
As for why I left my morality at the door? I'll make it simple: Because I can. And I'm a ******* saint compared to most of the people who play according to your terms of morality. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Xien Anh
Watanabe Heavy Industries
2
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:17:00 -
[419] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey. Wait. Wait a moment! Define: Morality! Wasn't he the bad guy in those Shamrock Helms books?
Have you ever had one of those days when you put your shoes on backwards and walked sideways to compensate? |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
228
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Posted - 2011.11.01 21:18:00 -
[420] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:If I spend 20 hours of that time earning the ISK for a Hulk, it gives that Hulk a personal value to me that you can't say doesn't exist. That makes destroying it all the sweeter..
So just think how awesome it will feel when you smash the windows out of your neighbors house! Be sneaky about it an they will never catch you and it will be just like Eve! Woot!
Issler |
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