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Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
33
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Posted - 2013.09.17 16:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
This idea is about enabling corporations to have a feature build in so that members of that corporation or even people from outside would have option to insure their ship. The NPC insurance is a joke and makes no sense.
How this feature works: - Corp has a separate wallet division where ceo or director (special role) can transfer isk to (and from) - Amount of isk available would be hidden to the rest of eve but if there is not enough isk for payouts insurance would have a red indicator when someone is trying to buy another. - There is no way to use or transfer the isk from that division. It means that it can only be used for insurance payouts. Once someone buys insurance the exact amount he ordered is reserved from that wallet division and it cannot be used unless the user stops paying the weekly/monthly amounts required or the insurance period has finished. It makes scamming very hard. - Ceo or director decides about %, some terms and conditions such as duration of the policy and how they are going to operate and use insurance. Some corporations may use it only for members or provide the service for Alliance, others will use it in public advertising and creating websites, searching for sponsors ect ect. Also the weekly/monthly amounts (bills) and when the insurance actually will guarantee you a full reimbursement. User/costumer will have to look carefully and read everything in the terms and conditions section otherwise he would just loose ship in the first day and gain nothing from insurance or just a little % from what he already payed to that company. - You could insure your capital and faction ships. Some companies would like to have an interview first and quick check of your kb to see if you eligible for special offers :) - Automatic payouts once ship is lost. Amount depends on the contract type, duration of the contract and amount of isk already payed for the policy. * Second idea is "life insurance": same as above but it would work with jump clones. It means you could insure all your clones just like ships...The feature could also be used to insure fittings and cargo.
V |
Schmata Bastanold
Czerka. WHY so Seri0Us
927
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Posted - 2013.09.17 16:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm not good at finding loopholes in ideas like this one so I will let others do that. For now +1 for ya for taking one more thing out of NPCs hands and giving it to players. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
24
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Posted - 2013.09.17 16:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
This would be a nice feature, however you would need-
1) no automatic payments, use lossmails & adjusters to curtail fraud.
2) the use of your insurance money is what makes insurance companies profitable, you could not lock away the total payout value and expect a company to stay in business.
You can howl "EVE has consequences" without context or explanation at whoever you like. This will not make it true. |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
39
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Posted - 2013.09.17 16:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:This would be a nice feature, however you would need-
1) no automatic payments, use lossmails & adjusters to curtail fraud.
2) the use of your insurance money is what makes insurance companies profitable, you could not lock away the total payout value and expect a company to stay in business.
Yes this is just initial idea and most important is that player owned corp would adjust terms and conditions so as long as its a game feature with lots of options to play with would serve the community and even promote bravery in pvp.
V |
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
67
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Posted - 2013.09.17 17:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
LOL
Insurance premiums would end up far too high to warrant insurance if you did ACTUAL risk assessments
And its not investments of that insurance makes money off of you, it's the denial of claims and having a large enough member base to see non-random distributions that you can predict |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 18:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
supernova ranger wrote:LOL
Insurance premiums would end up far too high to warrant insurance if you did ACTUAL risk assessments
And its not investments of that insurance makes money off of you, it's the denial of claims and having a large enough member base to see non-random distributions that you can predict
Yes but remember that there is a chance of competition. Its a player driven economy and if you want your corp to be popular in Jita then please make your premiums as low as possible or you will get no costumers. Other corporations may even wardec you if your offers look too good and you are advertising in their systems. Im not saying that it would always work better than npc insurance but at least it should be player owned thing and people would always want to make super offers and deals inside corporations and alliances to gain members and make life easier esspecially for combat division and miners. V |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
653
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 18:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
You want to remove the NPC insurance? Have fun never insuring a ship ever again, or getting scammed by fraudulent player "insurance" schemes. |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 18:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:You want to remove the NPC insurance? Have fun never insuring a ship ever again, or getting scammed by fraudulent player "insurance" schemes.
If its a game feature why would you allow someone to scam you? You can simply read the terms and conditions and pay only for insurance that is already in use for some time on the market. Mistakes will happen only if you dont pay attention and loose your ship too early, too late or in the wrong location.Yes you would be able to insure your ship for type of sec. you are flying in aswell. People who generally use only highsec would get better offers and people who belong to big alliances would benefit from their super deals/schemes/offers in nullsec ect ect.
As I said the isk is reserved for the payouts and you cannot use it until contract expires ect ect. This really is a safe feature
V |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3246
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Posted - 2013.09.17 19:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
OP... the current insurance system is a game mechanic designed to encourage people to PvP. Nothing more. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 19:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:OP... the current insurance system is a game mechanic designed to encourage people to PvP. Nothing more. It doesnt work and its not just my opinion. People get no isk for their faction ships and modules, people get no isk for their capital ships losses and their fitts, people get no isk for the implants and cargo they losse, "people get no profits because NPC corps gets all". As for now it only encurages people to use cheap stuff and keep the faction shiny modules and ships for later or sell it to traders. V |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3246
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 19:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Insurance rates for faction, Tech 2, and Tech 3 ships are crap BY DESIGN. Because...
- losing them is supposed to really hurt - why would ever fly a Tech 1 ship ever again if you get back most of your money for a "superior ship." - insurance rates are based upon mineral price... "special" ships have other factors beyond minerals that make them expensive.
As far as not getting full value insurance for your fits and everything... again... losing a ship is supposed to hurt. The purpose of insurance is to mitigate that pain a bit so you can get back into PvP. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 20:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Here's a simple calculation...
A player insures his ship because he thinks he is going to die right? so 50-50 chance he does and initiates the claim...
assuming the ship is worth 10m, you should expect the player to pay at least 50% > 5m... now I was taught that 32 is the magic number where one can on average expect a population to start following a distribution
so the insurance company needs to insure 32 ppl (say at 10% profit) at 5.5m PER pvp engagement for their 32 10m ships |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
45
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Posted - 2013.09.17 20:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Guys it would work! Once its in the players hands they will figure it all out. Some people will make isk out of it and some will fail and bankrupt. Some will get super duper deals and offers and others will struggle. Alliances and corporations will use it as a recruitment tool and im sure many pvpers would really have more interest in alliances and corps with good offers. V |
Zappity
Kurved Space
434
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 20:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Think of a real life mechanic where the prospect of individual liability or criminal proceedings is a deterrent to fraud or scamming.
That mechanic won't work in EVE. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 20:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ok so how about making it optional. People could still use NPC insurance unless there are better deals or the deal looks like a better one. V |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3246
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 20:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
^^ That.
No player insurance company would insure ANY PvP ship as PvPers fly into battle EXPECTING to lose their ships (they [sometimes] try not to, but they understand that it is a possibility). And the point of an insurance company is to pull in more money than it pays out... which is impossible in a universe where even petty salvagers carry weapons of mass destruction. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
654
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 20:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Horus V wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:You want to remove the NPC insurance? Have fun never insuring a ship ever again, or getting scammed by fraudulent player "insurance" schemes. If its a game feature why would you allow someone to scam you? You can simply read the terms and conditions and pay only for insurance that is already in use for some time on the market. Mistakes will happen only if you dont pay attention and loose your ship too early, too late or in the wrong location.Yes you would be able to insure your ship for type of sec. you are flying in aswell. People who generally use only highsec would get better offers and people who belong to big alliances would benefit from their super deals/schemes/offers in nullsec ect ect. As I said the isk is reserved for the payouts and you cannot use it until contract expires ect ect. This really is a safe feature
Players are already free to start their own "insurance companies." Why do you think it hasn't been done? Why do you think every "EVE Bank" has turned out to be a ponzi-scheme? There's no legal recourse in EVE, so these things will always turn out to be fraudulent. |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 21:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Horus V wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:You want to remove the NPC insurance? Have fun never insuring a ship ever again, or getting scammed by fraudulent player "insurance" schemes. If its a game feature why would you allow someone to scam you? You can simply read the terms and conditions and pay only for insurance that is already in use for some time on the market. Mistakes will happen only if you dont pay attention and loose your ship too early, too late or in the wrong location.Yes you would be able to insure your ship for type of sec. you are flying in aswell. People who generally use only highsec would get better offers and people who belong to big alliances would benefit from their super deals/schemes/offers in nullsec ect ect. As I said the isk is reserved for the payouts and you cannot use it until contract expires ect ect. This really is a safe feature Players are already free to start their own "insurance companies." Why do you think it hasn't been done? Why do you think every "EVE Bank" has turned out to be a ponzi-scheme? There's no legal recourse in EVE, so these things will always turn out to be fraudulent. I disagree. Those banks was not an ingame feature just some kind of websites and deals between players. If we had it built ingame it would be much more reliable because game mechanics would not allow you to close bank or to use all of the isk. V |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
813
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 22:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Horus V wrote:This idea is about enabling corporations to have a feature build in so that members of that corporation or even people from outside would have option to insure their ship. The NPC insurance is a joke and makes no sense.
How this feature works: - Corp has a separate wallet division where ceo or director (special role) can transfer isk to (and from) - Amount of isk available would be hidden to the rest of eve but if there is not enough isk for payouts insurance would have a red indicator when someone is trying to buy another. - There is no way to use or transfer the isk from that division. It means that it can only be used for insurance payouts. Once someone buys insurance the exact amount he ordered is reserved from that wallet division and it cannot be used unless the user stops paying the weekly/monthly amounts required or the insurance period has finished. It makes scamming very hard. - Ceo or director decides about %, some terms and conditions such as duration of the policy and how they are going to operate and use insurance. Some corporations may use it only for members or provide the service for Alliance, others will use it in public advertising and creating websites, searching for sponsors ect ect. Also the weekly/monthly amounts (bills) and when the insurance actually will guarantee you a full reimbursement. User/costumer will have to look carefully and read everything in the terms and conditions section otherwise he would just loose ship in the first day and gain nothing from insurance or just a little % from what he already payed to that company. - You could insure your capital and faction ships. Some companies would like to have an interview first and quick check of your kb to see if you eligible for special offers :) - Automatic payouts once ship is lost. Amount depends on the contract type, duration of the contract and amount of isk already payed for the policy. * Second idea is "life insurance": same as above but it would work with jump clones. It means you could insure all your clones just like ships...The feature could also be used to insure fittings and cargo.
Not enough data. For insurance to work you'd have to, ideally balance the payouts with the premiums and you'd need a deductable (moral hazard). You'd also have to find a way to deal with adverse selection as well. Also, there is the notion of making money off of premiums and investments vs. claims. Ultimately claims and premiums will equal out, but over the short run you'd want more in premiums so you can generate investment income. All of this requires the use of statistics and probability theory--i.e. you'd have to become an actuary.
Lastly, I doubt you'd find many people who want to play a space version of a space actuary, insurance adjuster, insurance underwriter, etc. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 23:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
You misunderstood the whole idea. It might be my english. You can not simply change % because its a game feature unless you hack the game and the % stays the same to the end of your contract. You may change it later but you might loose your costumers. You can't create an alt or any of that stuff because the insurance payouts are in separate special wallet division in the corp that was used to create the contract. If you meant to create an alt and take advantage of your own made policy then payouts are your own isk.
The regulations are not needed because it would be a feature. Even if you close the corp and go bankrupt that wallet division would only just automatically transfer all the isk to the costumers. System would work perfectly. V |
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Zappity
Kurved Space
434
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 23:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
You are not understanding the vastly different concept of in-game risk vs RL risk. The chance of catastrophic loss in game is almost 100%, especially for PvP players.
For the risk to be worth it the insurer would need to set the premium at nearly 100% of the sum insured, at which point nobody would bother since ship replacement is basically the same cost. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 00:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zappity wrote:You are not understanding the vastly different concept of in-game risk vs RL risk. The chance of catastrophic loss in game is almost 100%, especially for PvP players.
For the risk to be worth it the insurer would need to set the premium at nearly 100% of the sum insured, at which point nobody would bother since ship replacement is basically the same cost.
Ok yes you are right but what if the company is generous and is only asking you to pay 40 % of your ship total value? What if that company is corp that you belong to and actually has lots of money from tax and moon mining that you and other corp members help to defend every now and then? What if you actually have lots of costumers and contracts have only made for 2 or 3 weeks? What if majority of these people wont even loose their ships in that time? If they do you would give them a different kind of deals and eventually popular pvpers with shiny kill boards would only count on alliance/corp schemes where they still get good deals. Some people in this game have trillions and trillions of isk. With a simple tool they could make people fight for them. V |
Zappity
Kurved Space
434
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 00:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well that's called a ship replacement program and is nothing new. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Horus V
The Destined Drunken Hyena Association
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 00:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Well that's called a ship replacement program and is nothing new. Yep but this time everything is automatic and its possible to make profits. V |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
814
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 05:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Horus V wrote:You misunderstood the whole idea. It might be my english. You can not simply change % because its a game feature unless you hack the game. The % stays the same to the end of your contract. You may change it later in offers but you might loose your costumers. You can't create an alt or any of that stuff because the insurance payouts are in separate special wallet division in the corp that was used to create the contract. If you meant to create an alt and take advantage of your own made policy then payouts are your own isk.
The regulations are not needed because it would be a feature. Even if you close the corp and go bankrupt that wallet division would only just automatically transfer all the isk to the costumers. System would work perfectly.
No it wouldn't work perfectly. Those percentages would have to be determined by quite of bit of data and statistical and probability analysis. Being an actuary in RL will pay you good money...doing one in a game would suck given that there is a dearth of necessary data. CCP would have to hand over large amounts of data on ships, numbers currently in game at various points in time, number of ships lost, where, where players spend most of their game time etc. For example, my car insurance premium dropped when I moved counties.
And that suggest a reverse scam if the insurance company cannot adjust percentages for payouts. There'd be an incentive for a player who has spent most of his time in high sec doing missions to get a good insurance premium/deductible with a good payout percentage. He stays in high sec right....so give him a good policy. Now, he goes to low sec his buddies pop his ship and hand over half the loot to him and he keeps the other half and collects on his insurance policy.
What about a pilot, not looking to run a scam decides to move to null sec or joins a corp that spends its time camping the Rancer gate? Even if he isn't pulling a scam, the terms on which the original contract were written have changed.
And payouts are not the insurance companies isk. This is how insurance works:
Suppose you have 1,000 pilots. To keep things simple each one has a ship worth 1,000,000 isk. You also know that 10% of them will lose their ship. That is 100*1,000,000 in claims or 100,000,000 isk in claims. To be able to cover those claims you'd set your premiums at 100,000 isk/contract. 100,000*1,000 = 1,000,000,000. Tah dah! you have enough in premiums to cover your claims. Of course, you just can't offer such a simple contract. You want to avoid moral hazard--i.e. you want pilots to be cautious with their ships to some degree, so you have a 10,000 isk deductible (or in this case you're payout is 99.9%). And since all those losses wont happen immediately you'd have several hundred million isk to invest. That is suppose you have 500,000,000 isk to invest at 5%. Congrats! Your profits are 25,000,000 from investments plus 1,000,000 from the deductibles, or 26,000,000 isk.
Not great money, but here is the beauty of it all...you did not risk a single isk of your own. In fact, you made 26,000,000 isk off of nothing but getting similar types of pilots together, talking you into holding their money for a period of time, then paying out for those who lost their ships.
Of course, this is a simplified example for purposes of explication. The hard part if you were to actually do this is determining categories of pilots. Determining what percentage of ships in that category will be lost and what that expected loss is. Then you'll have to come up with a suitable deductible to encourage players in that category to be responsible with their ship. That is, if I have full insurance I'm much less concerned if it is blown up than if I don't have full coverage. So unless you are getting data similar to eve-kill.net or zkillboard that is not going to be easy.
And to analyze that...you'll probably need somebody with some good statistics skills. Somebody who can do something like multivariate regression analysis, understands hazard rates, etc.
So...good luck with this. I do stuff kind of like this, and I enjoy it (yeah, I'm weird), but I sure as hell am not going to do it when playing a game. Not unless you are going to pay me alot of isk, and there go your profit margins. So unless you have alot of budding actuaries out there just chomping at the bit to start a player run insurance company, it simply wont happen. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
814
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 05:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Horus V wrote:Zappity wrote:Well that's called a ship replacement program and is nothing new. Yep but this time everything is automatic and its possible to make profits.
SRPs don't make a profit. They are a loss center for alliances, but one they accept so that they can protect their income generation. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
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