I realise CCP are pushing up prices in the hope people will plug the gap with PLEX because they are money grabbers, but for casual players not willing to buy plex are certain types of day to day PVP now too expensive?

I think it's reached the point where battleships are virtually extinct from pvp, especially amongst players who play with risk.

Looking at eve-kill, when you scan the first 5-10 pages of kills on any given day it is extremely rare to see a Battleship being lost, or even used. It's just page after page of frigates, destroyers and cruisers. Is this is a change in play styles, or is it a reflection of costs?

I just lost a hype, which is what made me consider this. It cost 290mil to buy and fit (t2), i then paid 60mil for insurance, went looking for a fight and lost it. I received a 170mil payout. So my 290mil ship returned 110mil in total. Whats up with that?

Surely the average casual gamer can't sustain losing 250-300mil everytime a battleship dies, or 200mil if insured? Especially if you actively go looking for fights in small or solo situations.

When all three battleship tiers were balanced, why wasn't the price set to the MIDDLE tier ship? What was the reaosn behind making them all cot the same as the most expensive tier?

It'd be good to hear some thoughts on this, because that's just one example of a growing trend in EVE. Is the new, younger, in-school and armed with dads credit card target market worth it? I'm not so sure.

[quote=Nova Satar]

Ships were balanced in the sense that they were given different purposes. I don't think the mineral costs were changed.

You obviously don't have anything to do with construction of ships or industry. Aside from the majority of the 'rebalancing' which I would argue has been largely unnecessary & destructive to other elements of EVE Online the mineral costs for all ships that have been 'rebalanced' has increased exponentially.
'Extra materials', which are not reduced by ME research, have been added to the BPO's for all ships that have been 'rebalanced'. These 'extra materials' are typically adding approximately 40% to the cost of building those ships. If this happened in real life, and in some instances it does, it has a horrendous effect on economies both in New Eden and in RL. For those who got in before the changes to these ships there were significant profits to be made but after the fact construction of affected ships is ruined for months or longer.
It does seem that CCP has, and is, making other changes to bring about and/or exacerbate the current fall in mineral prices to fix this situation. But this just brings about more problems for other careers and parts of the New Eden economy.
At the moment the best we can hope is that once the T2 ships have all been 'rebalanced' that this plague stops at that threshold. I for one would not like to see capital ship & freighter BPO's touched with this infection.

Like i have said above, the use of battleships is extremely rare now, they never really die,

Your question was "Is PVP becoming too expensive?" and the answer is no.

Since I started playing in 2009 the price of battleships has gone up slightly while the price of PLEX has almost doubled. Buy orders for PLEX used to be around 350 mil and currently they're over 600 mil in Jita. This means the actual real money cost of battleships have gone down.

Yes I don't know anything about manufacturing so you got me on that one. If something CCP did to mineral costs effects the price of ships down the road I can't say but currently this has not happened.



TLDR: It has always been expensive to lose battleships in PVP. This is nothing new and hasn't changed. Most people that PVP in more expensive ships take care not to lose them.

PLEX isn't the benchmark for eve inflation so im not sure why that is relevant.

Ravens cost 135M or so when I started playing.

To put that into context, so did a 30 GTC card.

yes it is.

Ravens cost 135M or so when I started playing.

To put that into context, so did a 30 GTC card.

i honestly don't believe you're that ignorant, just very naive

just to clarify though, you're saying we've got it good and everything is bout 400% cheaper than it should be?

i honestly don't believe you're that ignorant, just very naive

just to clarify though, you're saying we've got it good and everything is bout 400% cheaper than it should be?

Your question was "Is PVP becoming too expensive?" and the answer is no.

Since I started playing in 2009 the price of battleships has gone up slightly while the price of PLEX has almost doubled. Buy orders for PLEX used to be around 350 mil and currently they're over 600 mil in Jita. This means the actual real money cost of battleships have gone down.

Yes I don't know anything about manufacturing so you got me on that one. If something CCP did to mineral costs effects the price of ships down the road I can't say but currently this has not happened.



TLDR: It has always been expensive to lose battleships in PVP. This is nothing new and hasn't changed. Most people that PVP in more expensive ships take care not to lose them.

You obviously don't have anything to do with construction of ships or industry. Aside from the majority of the 'rebalancing' which I would argue has been largely unnecessary & destructive to other elements of EVE Online the mineral costs for all ships that have been 'rebalanced' has increased exponentially.
'Extra materials', which are not reduced by ME research, have been added to the BPO's for all ships that have been 'rebalanced'. These 'extra materials' are typically adding approximately 40% to the cost of building those ships. If this happened in real life, and in some instances it does, it has a horrendous effect on economies both in New Eden and in RL. For those who got in before the changes to these ships there were significant profits to be made but after the fact construction of affected ships is ruined for months or longer.
It does seem that CCP has, and is, making other changes to bring about and/or exacerbate the current fall in mineral prices to fix this situation. But this just brings about more problems for other careers and parts of the New Eden economy.
At the moment the best we can hope is that once the T2 ships have all been 'rebalanced' that this plague stops at that threshold. I for one would not like to see capital ship & freighter BPO's touched with this infection.

I realise CCP are pushing up prices in the hope people will plug the gap with PLEX because they are money grabbers, but for casual players not willing to buy plex are certain types of day to day PVP now too expensive?

When all three battleship tiers were balanced, why wasn't the price set to the MIDDLE tier ship? What was the reaosn behind making them all cot the same as the most expensive tier?

I know alot of highsec and low-sec players will be wondering the same thing. I just hope CCP isn't hoping that when the isk runs out of peoples wallets they will simply buy more plex to cover it.

I'm spacepoor.

CCP doesn't set prices.

Battleship prices have gone slightly up? Slightly? Really?

My first Domi (late 2010 aka a time period you also played in) cost me 59mil (that was market price in Jita, not a friend of a friend deal) Now they are 145mil.

Using rough math a Domi has gone up 2,5 times in price since I started playing. A Plex hasnt even doubled...

So if PLEX is a yardstick, then I'd say prices of Battleships have gone (way) up since I started playing.

1. CCP don't influence prices we do, take off your tinfoil hat.

2. Stop being poor and learn how to make isk in game.

Pvp has become cheaper.

During the recent rebalance, CCP opted to nerf anything that requires SP into the ground whilst buffing everything else (or give T2 entireley useless 'bufffs' like the MWD sig bonus on HACs, which will only help them against BS, but nothing else).


BS just got shuffled around instead of receiving a long-required buff, whereas T1 friugs and cruisers got buffed into oblivion.

Most likely, that's due to CCP not understanding their own tracking formula and constantly underrating mobility for years now.

I for once only undock my noob alt in frigs, destroyers and T1 cruisers, as they're grossly overpowered in terms of 'bang for the buck' whereas I'm about to unsub or even sell my 100+ mill SP characters.

Quite sure buffed into oblivion is a contradiction

Battleship prices have gone slightly up? Slightly? Really?

My first Domi (late 2010 aka a time period you also played in) cost me 59mil (that was market price in Jita, not a friend of a friend deal) Now they are 145mil.

Using rough math a Domi has gone up 2,5 times in price since I started playing. A Plex hasnt even doubled...

So if PLEX is a yardstick, then I'd say prices of Battleships have gone (way) up since I started playing.

Pvp has become cheaper.

During the recent rebalance, CCP opted to nerf anything that requires SP into the ground whilst buffing everything else (or give T2 entireley useless 'bufffs' like the MWD sig bonus on HACs, which will only help them against BS, but nothing else).


BS just got shuffled around instead of receiving a long-required buff, whereas T1 friugs and cruisers got buffed into oblivion.

Most likely, that's due to CCP not understanding their own tracking formula and constantly underrating mobility for years now.

I for once only undock my noob alt in frigs, destroyers and T1 cruisers, as they're grossly overpowered in terms of 'bang for the buck' whereas I'm about to unsub or even sell my 100+ mill SP characters.

During the recent rebalance, CCP opted to nerf anything that requires SP into the ground whilst buffing everything else (or give T2 entireley useless 'bufffs' like the MWD sig bonus on HACs, which will only help them against BS, but nothing else).

BS just got shuffled around instead of receiving a long-required buff, whereas T1 friugs and cruisers got buffed into oblivion.

Most likely, that's due to CCP not understanding their own tracking formula and constantly underrating mobility for years now.

I for once only undock my noob alt in frigs, destroyers and T1 cruisers, as they're grossly overpowered in terms of 'bang for the buck' whereas I'm about to unsub or even sell my 100+ mill SP characters.

So do you believe 300mil per Rokh to be a fair price? For their purpose, their life, and how they come to an end, do you think 300mil is a fair cost?

i don't

1. CCP don't influence prices we do, take off your tinfoil hat.

2. Stop being poor and learn how to make isk in game.

A patch comes out and doubles the mineral use for a BS for no apparent reason....

I'm saying that you're making unsupported assertions and also you're using the rather low rhetorical trick of saying that "battleships are too expensive" without explaining what "not too expensive" or even "not expensive enough" would be.

I am providing data to the effect that relatively speaking battleships have been far more 'expensive' than they are now, using the only reliable metric of value that we have available (game time). It's scarcely disputable that the income of the average (median) EVE player in absolute ISK terms is much higher than it was in September 2006 (which is when I started playing).

Additionally, I flatly don't believe your claims that battleships aren't used in PvP and hardly ever die when they do, and I bet you don't either. I don't believe you're that ignorant either, just dishonest.

My personal experience totally contradicts that: not only are battleships once again the standard for fleets, they're used more than ever, and they die in large numbers tyvm. Looking at INIT's alliance killboard, with the campaign that conveniently started in 01.01.2013: http://killboard.the-initiative.com/?a=cc_detail&ctr_id=5 I see 1659 BS killed and 776 BS lost. That's just from one medium sized alliance. More to the point it shows more Battleships lost and killed than any other ship class.

You'll see a similar story in most PvP alliance killboards.

Furthermore, CCP have revitalised T1 cruisers and battlecruisers, giving players access to viable yet cheaper options if they feel that battleships are too expensive for their taste.

There is no denying that battleship are seeing PvP and in numbers. The dominix made it to the top 20 so it had to be used often. The important question is should they be used by small group/solo more or not? I don't think they should because in the end, they require support wich smaller gangs/solo can't provide. If they were able to support themself solo while also sporting a strong buffer tank, why would people fly anything else?

As long as they can be lost to much smaller ship, people won't want to field them without support. If they can't be lost to smaller ships, then it will be broken. I say leave them on fleet duty like they seem to be meant to be used or possibly as the one "flag ship" of a gang.

Pretty much spot on here.

A smallish corp fielding 5 pilots (let's say) should only have like 1 BS, with the others being tackle (frig) and 3x cruiser (optional - 1x logi) or attack BC ... a full gang (10) could probably double everything and add in T2 stuff ('ceptors, falcon, etc.). Granted, this doesn't exactly scale ... but that's why alliances have multiple fleets going at once...

i give up lol

You have been given the reason. Not liking it is not the same as getting to say it doesn't exist.

You have been given the reason. Not liking it is THE EXACT SAME THING as saying it doesn't exist, because it doesn't, because I don't like it, me me me me me me me.

i give up lol

BS just got "shuffled around" did they? Looked to me like a number of little-used BS (Hype, Mega, Raven etc) are suddenyl very viable indeed, rather than being utter jokes. I guess you could call that shuffling if you were determined not to like having an increased number of usable battleships.

Can you name a HAC that didn't get made better than it was before?

Honestly, it's like you people rejoice in not having an attention span or even basic reasoning ability.

The time for giving up was before you clicked "post" to start this thread. Here's a tip, don't try to hide your opinon behind a question next time. "Is pvp becoming to expensive" would have better be titled "I THINK pvp is becoming to expensive".

And, frankly, your "question" was answered, it's not becoming to expensive for most other people, in fact, as has been stated, pvp is less expensive now than at almost any other point in EVE's history. Before Tiercide, Tech1 cruisers were only good for "lul, lets go die and pray we can kill even one tech 2 ship before we explode" roams and that's it.

Now, really really really cheap ships are useful in pvp. And isk making in EVE is so easy now (with military upgrades in null sec, factions warfare isk and LP, and high sec incursions) that in relative terms, the current battleships are less of an expense now than they were just last year.

The cost of pvp is fine. Sorry if you believe otherwise.

My question and opinion have both been stated very clearly, so thanks for the tip but i think i'll stick to taking them from people who have even the remotest of clues about the topic in question. E.G Not you

It all comes down to Eve's basic rule.

If you can't afford to replace it - don't undock it.

If you can't afford to lose a couple of BS you should stay away from them until you find proper ways to earn ISK.

Because the most fun that can be had in pvp is with t1/destroyers/cruisers especially in low sec they are cheap....

So your Dominix increasing in price by that amount should have been explained to you and should have been expected. Its price went up because it now takes more materials to build it than it did before, hence the player building it would have to take a substantial loss to sell it to you at the old price. This is also why I used the Abaddon as my measuring stick in my previous post as its price (being and old tier 3) was not expected to change very dramatically and so it would provide the best method for determining the actual trend in ship prices. The Abaddon has dropped in price in the last 6 months as has the price of Tritanium, so if you check the Rokh, Hyperion and Maelstrom I suspect this trend will hold. The Dominix is particularly expensive of late as it has been in high demand, competition between buyers naturally drives up prices.

Yes, you have more fun to pvp in cheap ship (it's easier to replace and you don't care) but your opponent feels the same. So killing his ship doesn't make him feel bad. What to do pvp for then?

For the fun of out-witting and out-fighting your opponent. Now, if you PvP to drink your enemies' tears, cheap ships might be a problem. For those who want people to be willing to come out and fight, cheap ships are great - they make it more likely that some of the risk-averse people will actually grow a pair and come on out.

you killed ship. When you have more fun?
1. Ship was dirt cheap
2. Ship was golden
?

Yes, you have more fun to pvp in cheap ship (it's easier to replace and you don't care) but your opponent feels the same. So killing his ship doesn't make him feel bad. What to do pvp for then?

Ravens cost 135M or so when I started playing.

To put that into context, so did a 30 GTC card.

People complain when the losses are too cheap since there is no risk and people complain when the losses are too expensive because they can't afford it... You just can't win lol

Of course you're going to see more people lose smaller and cheaper ships. No one thinks twice about going on a suicide roam with a cheap ship but not many want to in a more expensive ship.

Battleships aren't extinct from PVP although new ships such as attack battlecruisers have given players more choices.

Some pilots fly ships costing over a billion ISK in PVP but they're not foolish with them either. Many players can't just lose 200 mil ISK ships on a frequent basis. This is nothing new in Eve. Just don't buy the most expensive ship you can fly.

If you want to fly larger ships in Eve your best bet is to join a nullsec alliance that offers ship reimbursement.

Ships were balanced in the sense that they were given different purposes. I don't think the mineral costs were changed.


TLDR

No PVP isn't becoming too expensive. I've played since 2009 and it seems about the same today as it was then. The cost of failue in Eve is one thing that sets it apart from some other MMO's

Eve has always been too expensive. That's why you will never, ever see 100,000 players online.

Imagine an Eve where you can get fights all the time in almost every system. Imagine that you had fun blowing stuff up all the time. Keep imagining because it's never going to happen.

While the fanbois who have invested their entire life playing Eve and being a social outcast with no girlfriend will, of course, pepper me with insults, the fact is most people in the real world do have a life, and they aren't going to spend USD$50.00 for an internet space ship. Besides, Eve is already hard enough without adding insane amounts of money to the equation.

If CCP dropped the prices they would still make the same amount of money because more players = more $$$. But they are content having a mostly empty universe populated by 30yr old virgins.

.

BS just got "shuffled around" did they? Looked to me like a number of little-used BS (Hype, Mega, Raven etc) are suddenyl very viable indeed, rather than being utter jokes. I guess you could call that shuffling if you were determined not to like having an increased number of usable battleships.

Can you name a HAC that didn't get made better than it was before?

Honestly, it's like you people rejoice in not having an attention span or even basic reasoning ability.

Eve has always been too expensive. That's why you will never, ever see 100,000 players online.

Imagine an Eve where you can get fights all the time in almost every system. Imagine that you had fun blowing stuff up all the time. Keep imagining because it's never going to happen.

While the fanbois who have invested their entire life playing Eve and being a social outcast with no girlfriend will, of course, pepper me with insults, the fact is most people in the real world do have a life, and they aren't going to spend USD$50.00 for an internet space ship. Besides, Eve is already hard enough without adding insane amounts of money to the equation.

If CCP dropped the prices they would still make the same amount of money because more players = more $$$. But they are content having a mostly empty universe populated by 30yr old virgins.

.

Want a hac not effectively buffed? Vagabond... why because it is still better to buy a cynabal instead for that role.

90-100mil back in the good old days

On the contrary.. the people that re not social outcasts, and have not only GF, but wifes, and excelent jobs, will spare 50$ to buy pvp ships, because its a minimal thing for them.

Should have stock at that time too ;(

Should have stock at that time too ;(

When i started my first character the raven was 89-91 mil

Rohks didn't exist

Dommi was around 58 mil

Plex was introduced and was around 245-260 mil

The first Titan had not yet been built

Capitals were just starting to appear

Jita at peak times had about 600 people in it and none of them were scammers

Warp to 0 hadn't been implemented and battleships were the most popular gate campers

Was good times ...

Though I don't think things are any worse now than they were then in terms of cost vs gain.. If anything incursions made pvp cheaper by making players wealthier.

58M was the navy domi probably, you could buy the regular one at 34 not that long ago.

Minimum wage where I live is $25 an hour and gas is $1.30 per litre. Probably about $4.90 a gallon or something?

You need to GTFO of freedomland and start living a real life.

In my opinion PVP is still too cheap. There are far too few officer-fitted machs and other shinies around providing nice Killmails and loot.