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Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
228
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Posted - 2013.09.25 13:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just noticed something about hybrids that just doesn't make sense, I know "why" it was done, but as for immersion and consistency with weapon descriptions and storyline this just doesn't feel right.
I've gone the "traditional" Caldari way in training Missile skills, and only recently started training gunnery or I might have noticed this much sooner.
Why do the Dual 250mm Hybrid turrets require "Large" ammo? According to the description they are nothing more than a BS twin turret version of the Cruiser 250mm mounts. If that is True shouldn't they use Medium ammo and modify the number of turrets( x 2 ) ? That would make far more sense.... A Naga could then basically be mounting the equivalent of 16 x 250mm rails and use Medium ammo.
Doesn't that make more sense? Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Meiyang Lee
Game Instrument Applications
8
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Posted - 2013.09.25 13:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
It may make more sense, but they prefered the upscaled medium guns to use Large Ammo to keep it consistent with the other large guns and avoid confusion. :)
Rapid Light launchers are the only exception to that concept as far as I'm aware (unless those rumours about Rapid Heavy Launchers for BS is correct). |
Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
228
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Posted - 2013.09.25 13:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Meiyang Lee wrote:It may make more sense, but they prefered the upscaled medium guns to use Large Ammo to keep it consistent with the other large guns and avoid confusion. :)
Rapid Light launchers are the only exception to that concept as far as I'm aware (unless those rumours about Rapid Heavy Launchers for BS is correct).
Yea, like I said, I know "Why" the Devs chose to use large ammo, but in doing so they kinda broke the weapon description didn't they. Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1587
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Posted - 2013.09.25 15:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Diablo Ex wrote:Meiyang Lee wrote:It may make more sense, but they prefered the upscaled medium guns to use Large Ammo to keep it consistent with the other large guns and avoid confusion. :)
Rapid Light launchers are the only exception to that concept as far as I'm aware (unless those rumours about Rapid Heavy Launchers for BS is correct). Yea, like I said, I know "Why" the Devs chose to use large ammo, but in doing so they kinda broke the weapon description didn't they.
And that matters how? I mean unless you are some sort of uber anal retentive RP type. |
Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
129
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Posted - 2013.09.25 16:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Meiyang Lee wrote:It may make more sense, but they prefered the upscaled medium guns to use Large Ammo to keep it consistent with the other large guns and avoid confusion. :)
Rapid Light launchers are the only exception to that concept as far as I'm aware (unless those rumours about Rapid Heavy Launchers for BS is correct).
Uhhh you mean Heavy Assault Missiles? |
Kasutra
Tailor Company
222
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Posted - 2013.09.25 16:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you want to get into it, it also doesn't make sense that 350mm and 425mm rails use the same ammo type.
But clearly, CCP decided that dividing both ships and ammo into size categories provided a better gameplay experience than dividing it all up by descriptions. |
Eggs Ackley
15
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Posted - 2013.09.25 16:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Diablo Ex wrote:Meiyang Lee wrote:It may make more sense, but they prefered the upscaled medium guns to use Large Ammo to keep it consistent with the other large guns and avoid confusion. :)
Rapid Light launchers are the only exception to that concept as far as I'm aware (unless those rumours about Rapid Heavy Launchers for BS is correct). Yea, like I said, I know "Why" the Devs chose to use large ammo, but in doing so they kinda broke the weapon description didn't they. And that matters how? I mean unless you are some sort of uber anal retentive RP type.
Not that any of that type play EVE.
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Donbe Scurred
University of Caille Gallente Federation
253
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Posted - 2013.09.25 16:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yeah, it comes down to game play experience, why do turrets have fall off in space, why do our ships decelerate, how exactly do shields take kinetic damage? You can go on and on. There is a fine line between realistic and fun. As this is a game you will always tend to lean towards the fun. |
Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
229
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Posted - 2013.09.25 19:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm thinking more along the lines of game mechanics really. I have no issue with 350mm & 425mm both using "Large" ammo, because they are both clearly in the same weapons class. Battleship, Large Bore, Single Barrel.
But... the Dual 250mm is two Cruiser class weapons mounted in a twin turret. They really should be treated in game as what they are... Medium class weapons, just twice as many. I can't see where that could cause any confusion. If anything it would breathe new life into an otherwise mediocre weapon system. Like I said before...
A Naga armed with dual mount 250mm II's with Spike L ( 16 weapons in 8 turrets ) currently produces a base combined 87 DPS
The Ferox armed with 7 x 250mm II's with Spike M ( 7 weapons in 7 turrets ) produces a base combined 129 DPS
A Naga with 2 x 250mm II's per turret with Spike M ( 16 weapons in 8 turrets ) (if they are counted as Cruiser class) would produce a base combined 197 DPS
Clearly, having more gun barrels pointing down range, throwing twice as many projectiles by all reason should be producing more DPS. But that is clearly not the case. A BC using the same caliber weapon systems and with HALF the number of guns, does considerably more DPS than the same caliber weapon mounted 2 per turret on a Battleship? And everybody is Ok with this?
Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
949
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 20:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
It would be unimaginably overpowered for battleships to be able to field 16 bonused medium turrets. The name is just that: a name. You're correct it makes no sense whatsoever from a lore perspective, but if any change is going to happen, it'll be a name change not a mechanics change. |
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Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
229
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Posted - 2013.09.25 20:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote: It would be unimaginably overpowered for battleships to be able to field 16 bonused medium turrets. The name is just that: a name. You're correct it makes no sense whatsoever from a lore perspective, but if any change is going to happen, it'll be a name change not a mechanics change.
Ok, but a BS sized 250mm turret firing L ammo is doing far less DPS than a Cruiser sized 250mm firing M ammo. What role is these dual mounted 250mm's BS weapons trying to fill? It looks to me that they are near useless, and to me that's a serious Nerf job. Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
950
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Posted - 2013.09.25 20:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:Ok, but a BS sized 250mm turret firing L ammo is doing far less DPS than a Cruiser sized 250mm firing M ammo. What role is these dual mounted 250mm's BS weapons trying to fill? It looks to me that they are near useless, and to me that's a serious Nerf job.
The role they fill is that of "smaller large weapon"...It's the exact same role filled by electron blasters or gatling pulses. |
Dato Koppla
Veni Vidi Evassi
303
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Posted - 2013.09.25 23:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
As many said, it's just by design. It might not make sense but that's how it is, and don't forget if it shoots M ammo then the signature resolution of the shots will be much smaller giving the Dual 250s far better tracking than it's L ammo brothers. |
stoicfaux
3152
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Posted - 2013.09.25 23:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm going to go on a limb and state that the OP never played "Deus Ex: Invisible War".
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Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
229
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Posted - 2013.09.25 23:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:I'm going to go on a limb and state that the OP never played "Deus Ex: Invisible War".
Hmmm.... that's a rather shaky limb you just crawled out on. My toon name is a play off the term "Deus Ex", but not the game. Deus Ex Machina is a literary device used my writers to interject plot twists that somehow assist the main characters. Thus my Signature... "I'm not here to fix your problem" meaning that my sudden, unexpected appearance on the scene is usually not a good thing.
Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
17
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Posted - 2013.09.26 09:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
As we cant buy shells by caliber (75mm/125mm/150mm/so on) i always see it as a package of different size and quantity shells for the small/medium/large guns. ie: hybrid ammo could be packaged as small with 1x150mm shell for 150mm rails or as medium with 2x150mm shells for dual 150mm rails. And similar with medium-large ammo. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1131
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 10:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
I vaguely remember the RP excuse being something like this: what you buy on the market aren't actual shells, it's just the payload material (antimatter, phased plasma, etc.). The process of putting this payload into rounds of appropriate size for your guns is handwawed away. And a dual 250mm turret would require twice as much payload as a single 250mm turret per round shot, hence using one size larger "ammo". |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11836
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 10:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:Ok, but a BS sized 250mm turret firing L ammo is doing far less DPS than a Cruiser sized 250mm firing M ammo. What role is these dual mounted 250mm's BS weapons trying to fill? It looks to me that they are near useless, and to me that's a serious Nerf job. The role they fill is that of "smaller large weapon"...It's the exact same role filled by electron blasters or gatling pulses.
And they're used by no one ever.
1 Kings 12:11
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Dato Koppla
Veni Vidi Evassi
303
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Posted - 2013.09.26 13:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:Ok, but a BS sized 250mm turret firing L ammo is doing far less DPS than a Cruiser sized 250mm firing M ammo. What role is these dual mounted 250mm's BS weapons trying to fill? It looks to me that they are near useless, and to me that's a serious Nerf job. The role they fill is that of "smaller large weapon"...It's the exact same role filled by electron blasters or gatling pulses. And they're used by no one ever.
Smaller weapon sizes can be very useful and open up other fitting options. Generally yes, the smallest class of weapons are quite bad mostly due to range and dps issues. However that's far better than having only 1 type of weapon per class thus limiting your fitting options greatly, like missiles do. |
Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
230
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 14:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
I don't see allowing Battleship dual turrets to be the equal to their Cruiser weapon counterparts as being "unimaginably overpowered". Seriously, have you at least ran the numbers?
Your telling me that an 8 turret Rokh would be Incredibly Overpowered if it was allowed to have slightly better DPS than a 7 turret Ferox... considering weapon caliber, optimal range, and ammo were the same... WTF ?
And I haven't even pointed out that I also think the Dual Mount 250mm's should fall under "Medium Gunnery" skills. Just saying Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
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Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2013.09.26 15:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
I believe this thread is based on you drooling over the new stats of the medium rails, in which case trolololol. |
Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
230
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 15:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ahhh.... I sense a disturbance in the Farce.
Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
261
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Posted - 2013.09.26 15:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
I like the proposal! Just imagine - a cynabal can squeeze around 450dps out of it's turrets in average (4x425), but then - a maelstrom can mount 8 (eight!!!1!) quad 425s! So it would run at 450*8 dps, which would leave it with some 3.600dps!
doing other translations like that might even be better, let's demand our machariels '28x 425s' to deal as much damage each as that 425 would inflict if mounted to a sleipnir. Should be close to 5k dps. Great. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |
Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
230
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 17:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:I like the proposal! Just imagine - a cynabal can squeeze around 450dps out of it's turrets in average (4x425), but then - a maelstrom can mount 8 (eight!!!1!) quad 425s! So it would run at 450*8 dps, which would leave it with some 3.600dps!
doing other translations like that might even be better, let's demand our machariels '28x 425s' to deal as much damage each as that 425 would inflict if mounted to a sleipnir. Should be close to 5k dps. Great.
Now, to be fair, I'm only talking base weapon stats here. This does not include hull, role, skill, or implant bonuses. I'm simply pointing out that large battleship weapons that are based on medium cruiser archtypes should be at least getting similar base stats.
I just feel it is a bit out of wack for a "fail fit" BS to have superior weapon stats to one with "legitimate" loadout. Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Logan Revelore
Minimal Solutions Aurora Irae
8
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Posted - 2013.12.14 22:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Diablo Ex wrote:I'm thinking more along the lines of game mechanics really. I have no issue with 350mm & 425mm both using "Large" ammo, because they are both clearly in the same weapons class. Battleship, Large Bore, Single Barrel.
But... the Dual 250mm is two Cruiser class weapons mounted in a twin turret. They really should be treated in game as what they are... Medium class weapons, just twice as many. I can't see where that could cause any confusion. If anything it would breathe new life into an otherwise mediocre weapon system. Like I said before...
A Naga armed with dual mount 250mm II's with Spike L ( 16 weapons in 8 turrets ) currently produces a base combined 87 DPS
The Ferox armed with 7 x 250mm II's with Spike M ( 7 weapons in 7 turrets ) produces a base combined 129 DPS
A Naga with 2 x 250mm II's per turret with Spike M ( 16 weapons in 8 turrets ) (if they are counted as Cruiser class) would produce a base combined 197 DPS
Clearly, having more gun barrels pointing down range, throwing twice as many projectiles by all reason should be producing more DPS. But that is clearly not the case. A BC using the same caliber weapon systems and with HALF the number of guns, does considerably more DPS than the same caliber weapon mounted 2 per turret on a Battleship? And everybody is Ok with this?
I'm not ok with it. It annoys the hell out of me to be honest. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
693
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 11:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Diablo Ex wrote:I just noticed something about hybrids that just doesn't make sense, I know "why" it was done, but as for immersion and consistency with weapon descriptions and storyline this just doesn't feel right.
I've gone the "traditional" Caldari way in training Missile skills, and only recently started training gunnery or I might have noticed this much sooner.
Why do the Dual 250mm Hybrid turrets require "Large" ammo? According to the description they are nothing more than a BS twin turret version of the Cruiser 250mm mounts. If that is True shouldn't they use Medium ammo and modify the number of turrets( x 2 ) ? That would make far more sense.... A Naga could then basically be mounting the equivalent of 16 x 250mm rails and use Medium ammo.
Doesn't that make more sense?
Agreed, I've always thought the same thing, it's high time that stuff like that was changed. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Aaron Zebulun
Sum of Three Halves Vitoc Health Services
1
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Posted - 2013.12.15 13:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
If you want to be really pedantic, all weapons should have basically infinite range. Its space so once its going its not going to stop unless it hits something or gets sucked into a gravity well. There should be a delay between firing and actually hitting the target with projectiles and hybrids, and lasers should do their damage damn near instantly as well as have silly ranges as there's no air to dissipate the energy. |
3rd wheel
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
This entire thread is stupid. |
Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
27
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Posted - 2013.12.16 20:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
If you want that much detail in wepon systems I would direct you to harpoon II |
Odithia
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2013.12.16 21:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Actualy he's right, high end Medium railgun apply much more damage than the Low end Large one.
http://imgur.com/y6P84IX Left side on unbonussed hull, right side on bonussed hull (dmg).
Note : On Megathron, bonussed Dual 250mm has better tracking than Unbonussed single 250mm.
Double the damage would ruin balance but everyone will agree that those dual 250 pretty ******. I guess other weapon system must be similar. |
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