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Regional unfairness in pricing

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Herr Esiq Dirt Nap Squad 62	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:14:00 - [31] - Quote Klyith wrote: FYI, Amazon may be giving CCP some additional consideration to have an Amazon-only sale. They've been doing stuff like that to build out their digital gaming store and compete with existing stores. So it may be less "CCP favoring the US" and more "Amazon only caring about the US". If only there where PLEX vendors that cater internationally and willing to strike a deal with CCP. I personally am not convinced every 3rd party retailer on their own list is strong-arming CCP into not having a PLEX sale: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspx
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 11:40:00 - [32] - Quote Lucretia DeWinter wrote: ...Why does amazon.... not have 6 PLEX offers up for ... 56 Euros? The cost of doing business in the EU is higher than the US.
Othran Route One 594	Posted - 2013.09.27 11:52:00 - [33] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Lucretia DeWinter wrote: ...Why does amazon.... not have 6 PLEX offers up for ... 56 Euros? The cost of doing business in the EU is higher than the US. No, its not. Not for Amazon anyway as they use Luxembourg as their tax haven. Every online sale in the EU gets fed through Luxembourg for VAT/etc and then Ireland for corporation tax. As a result they pay around 40% of the tax rate they are subjected to in the USA, should they attempt to "repatriate" that money. Same as Apple does and thousands more. CCP are based in Iceland which isn't in the EU, nor is Iceland joining the EU (sensible people). They pay corporation taxes in Iceland and (presumably) take advantage of the same loophole Amazon (and thousands of other companies do) by paying VAT in the lowest rate country in the EU (and that's lower than pretty much any US state sales tax). CCP do it because they always have and indeed have "got away with it" for 10+ years. Its got bugger all to do with taxes or "the cost of doing business".
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 11:57:00 - [34] - Quote Othran wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: The cost of doing business in the EU is higher than the US. No, its not. .... Amazon.de does not have to transfer VAT to the Germany government? Should I order through Amazon.DE they take VAT from me and send it to the German government; unless I submit AE From 215-6B.
Othran Route One 594	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:20:00 - [35] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Othran wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: The cost of doing business in the EU is higher than the US. No, its not. .... Amazon.de does not have to transfer VAT to the Germany government? Should I order through Amazon.DE they take VAT from me and send it to the German government; unless I submit AE From 215-6B. When you purchase from Amazon in the EU then the VAT is (eventually) paid in Luxembourg. That's where the Amazon "trading company" is "based" and the sales go through them where they pay the "super reduced rate" of 3% VAT on books (for example). If you put your "computer services" (ie MMO subs) through there then you pay 12% VAT. Now the trading company transfers the profits to the Amazon "management company" in Ireland where they pay 6% tax (in theory at least). Apple do the same and haven't paid any tax in Ireland for more than 20 years. Welcome to the EU carousel where no multinational company with a clue pays taxes where they should and VAT fraud is rife. How do you think Luxembourg pays its bills anyway? Its only 5 years since the OECD were going to label Luxembourg as an illegal tax haven and blacklist them - the EU were going to have to suspend their membership, a "deal" was reached but they're still dodgy as ****. Anyway the tl;dr is that differences between EU and US prices for Eve have bugger all to do with taxes.
Herr Esiq Dirt Nap Squad 63	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:24:00 - [36] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Othran wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: The cost of doing business in the EU is higher than the US. No, its not. .... Amazon.de does not have to transfer VAT to the Germany government? Should I order through Amazon.DE they take VAT from me and send it to the German government; unless I submit AE From 215-6B. You keep bringing up amazon.de, but thats not the issue, there are many ways to avoid VAT, as given per example few posts up. In fact its the #1 sport in the EU. OP also included VAT in the calculations. Always remember: avoiding tax is legal, evading tax is illegal. The problem is why CCP had to go with a vendor that excludes other countries from the option to buy.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:40:00 - [37] - Quote Othran wrote: When you purchase from Amazon in the EU then the VAT is (eventually) paid in Luxembourg. That's where the Amazon "trading company" is "based" and the sales go through them where they pay the "super reduced rate" of 3% VAT on books (for example). If you put your "computer services" (ie MMO subs) through there then you pay 12% VAT. .... So your claim is that when I buy a product in Germany I don't have the pay the German VAT rate as long as the company has a headquarters in a different country?
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:45:00 - [38] - Quote Herr Esiq wrote: The problem is why CCP had to go with a vendor that excludes other countries from the option to buy. The inability of the average EU resident to buy from the lowest seller isn't a CCP or Amazon issue, but an EU taxation issue.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:48:00 - [39] - Quote VAT (value-added tax) on goods In accordance with the laws governing members of the European Union, Amazon.de is obliged to charge VAT (Umsatzsteuer) on all orders delivered to destinations in member countries of the EU. The VAT rate in Germany is only 7% on books, groceries (beverages and gift baskets excluded) and pet food. Items in our catalogue besides books, groceries and pet food are subject to the regular VAT rate of 19%. These also include, audiobooks, CD-roms, calendars, software items, and more. The amounts displayed for goods sold by Amazon.de are inclusive of German VAT. However, your final price may differ depending on the actual VAT rate that applies to your order. If you enter a non-German delivery address, the VAT automatically changes to the rate that is applicable in your country. For EU customers outside of Germany, amounts of VAT charged are in accordance with the local legislation in each country. You will be able to see your final price inclusive of applicable VAT before you confirm your order, when you have completed your order information (including your delivery address). Please remember that VAT charges only apply to orders being sent to member countries of the EU. For dispatch to countries outside of the EU, VAT will not be charged. These packages may, however, be assessed import or customs fees, depending on the laws of the particular countries. Any customs or import duties are levied once the package reaches the destination country. Additional charges for customs clearance would have to be borne by the recipient; we have no control over these charges and cannot predict what they might be. Since customs policies vary widely from country to country, you may want to contact your local customs office for further information. You can find the EU VAT rates (Umsatzsteuers+ñtze) here (in German)
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R. 168	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:00:00 - [40] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Look deeply enough, and you will likely find the incredibly **** up EU intra-national trade laws to be the culprit of this. I can only imagine how long it took CCP to even figure out a way to make PLEX legal in the first place. The price you pay for outright socialism, I suppose. As opposed to the states, where we lie to ourselves about being socialists now. Either way, I feel sorry for my EU brethren, but at the same time I intend to take full, $100 at least advantage of this. No hard feelings. I'd gladly pay a couple bucks more for video games for universal health care . . . Especially in exchange for not having to pay over $350 a month in premiums for coverage. I am not an alt of Chribba**.
Lucretia DeWinter Star Frontiers Dirt Nap Squad. 50	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:01:00 - [41] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Herr Esiq wrote: The problem is why CCP had to go with a vendor that excludes other countries from the option to buy. The inability of the average EU resident to buy from the lowest seller isn't a CCP or Amazon issue, but an EU taxation issue. Not really. I could still pay full UK VAT (at 20%) I'd still be paying equivalent of $88 (-ú55.20) for something costing $75. Yet if I buy 6 PLEX from CCP in -ú I have to stump up $145 (-ú90) If I buy from amazon UK, who only do 60 day cards, I have to pay -ú35 each GTC or a whopping -ú105 for 6 PLEX. If it was -ú10 or so more due to exchange rates, taxes and whatever, I wouldn't mind and would chalk this up to the costs of international trade, but if I buy from Amazon, this is a ridiculous -ú49.80 more for exactly the same virtual product requiring no production or shipping. Which I could nearly buy another 6 PLEX with, could I get the offer. People are right, this goes on all the time, but it shouldn't and a company that cares about its international client base can choose to do something about it by leveraging their partner relationships, their finance model or providing their own administered offers.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:02:00 - [42] - Quote The cost of doing business in the EU is higher. EUR 76,99 (includes VAT) EUR 64.70 (cost minus VAT) $87.43 (German price in dollars) $74.99 (US price in dollars) Difference about $12.50 UHY adds that seven of the ten countries with the highest employment costs for low or middle income workers are European. An average European employer must pay an extra USD 17,860 (23.8% of gross salary) on salaries of USD 75,000 GÇô American employers have to pay an extra USD 6,182 (8.2%) and Chinese employers have to pay an extra USD 9,263 (12.4%). Ladislav Hornan says: GÇ£Now that parts of the world GÇô particularly Europe GÇô are struggling economically and have increasingly elderly populations and fewer workers contributing to the social security system, existing social security structures could become even more of a burden for businesses.GÇ¥ http://www.uhy.com/employers-now-pay-average-employment-costs-worth-nearly-25-of-employees-salaries/
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:07:00 - [43] - Quote Lucretia DeWinter wrote: Not really. I could still pay full UK VAT (at 20%) I'd still be paying equivalent of $88 (-ú55.20) for something costing $75.. The cost of doing business in the UK is higher than the US. Is it $13 dollars higher... I don't know. But you can not reasonably expect to but higher demands on businesses through labor costs and regulations and not expect those cost to be put on the consumer.
Othran Route One 597	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:08:00 - [44] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: VAT (value-added tax) on goods You can find the EU VAT rates (Umsatzsteuers+ñtze) here (in German) Yes and all of that means nothing TBH as you clearly don't understand how VAT works - or rather doesn't. Amazon "Luxembourg" will reclaim the VAT from the German side and pay the (reduced) VAT in Luxembourg. That's all quite legal and above board as the company you have paid is Amazon EU S.a.r.L and not "amazon.de". There's currently nothing that can be done about this at a legal level within the EU as it would count as "restraint of trade" and be in breach of the last 3 (probably more) EU treaties. It's called "carousel fraud" when individuals do this. When companies do it then its quite legal. Edit - the bottom line is that multinational companies in the EU pay a LOT less tax to govts relating to sales/services than they do in the USA. Indirect taxes such as employers national insurance (in the UK) undoubtably push up the cost of employing someone but I fail to see how the server guys in London and the dev guys in Newcastle mean that the cost of a virtual item are so out of line. Anyway, enough from me. CCP have always done this and they always will. Got **** all to do with EU taxes though.....
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:12:00 - [45] - Quote Othran wrote: Yes and all of that means nothing TBH as you clearly don't understand how VAT works - or rather doesn't.. It is possible I don't understand. My source is amazon.de ... "The amounts displayed for goods sold by Amazon.de are inclusive of German VAT." What is yours?
Lucretia DeWinter Star Frontiers Dirt Nap Squad. 50	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:16:00 - [46] - Quote Same issue: "Games downloads are available only for German customers We apologize for any inconvenience. Continue shopping continues on the Amazon.de website." This is purely down to Amazons regional policy, I know. So it seems US and German customers can buy discounted PLEX but F you if you live somewhere else? Nice.
Lucretia DeWinter Star Frontiers Dirt Nap Squad. 50	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:17:00 - [47] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Othran wrote: Yes and all of that means nothing TBH as you clearly don't understand how VAT works - or rather doesn't.. It is possible I don't understand. My source is amazon.de ... "The amounts displayed for goods sold by Amazon.de are inclusive of German VAT." What is yours? This is because it is a legal requirement that taxes etc be included in the displayed price and has nothing to do with international pricing.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:20:00 - [48] - Quote Lucretia DeWinter wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Othran wrote: Yes and all of that means nothing TBH as you clearly don't understand how VAT works - or rather doesn't.. It is possible I don't understand. My source is amazon.de ... "The amounts displayed for goods sold by Amazon.de are inclusive of German VAT." What is yours? This is because it is a legal requirement that taxes etc be included in the displayed price and has nothing to do with international pricing. I am not exactly sure what you are saying, so... If you statement is that removing the VAT from the German price still gives you a higher price for the same product... then I agree.
Othran Route One 597	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:21:00 - [49] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Othran wrote: Yes and all of that means nothing TBH as you clearly don't understand how VAT works - or rather doesn't.. It is possible I don't understand. My source is amazon.de ... "The amounts displayed for goods sold by Amazon.de are inclusive of German VAT." That quote means that you have fulfilled your obligation to pay VAT. It doesn't mean that the German govt is the ultimate recipient of the VAT. The ultimate recipient of the VAT is the govt of the country where the company is "based". In this case that is Luxembourg. That's the way VAT works in the EU - the end-user pays it and the recipient is always the govt that "hosts" the company.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:28:00 - [50] - Quote Othran wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Othran wrote: Yes and all of that means nothing TBH as you clearly don't understand how VAT works - or rather doesn't.. It is possible I don't understand. My source is amazon.de ... "The amounts displayed for goods sold by Amazon.de are inclusive of German VAT." That quote means that you have fulfilled your obligation to pay VAT. It doesn't mean that the German govt is the ultimate recipient of the VAT. The ultimate recipient of the VAT is the govt of the country where the company is "based". In this case that is Luxembourg. That's the way VAT works in the EU - the end-user pays it and the recipient is always the govt that "hosts" the company. So you are saying that Luxembourg is taking the VAT money? Ok, I don't agree but that doesn't really matter. End result: German consumers pay 19% more because of VAT on the same product sold in the US.
Othran Route One 597	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:37:00 - [51] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: End result: German consumers pay 19% more because of VAT on the same product sold in the US. No they don't. As I said above they will pay the lower Luxembourg rate, but the company will keep the difference if the selling price (inclusive of taxes) is the same across the Eurozone. Anyway once you add state & local taxes to US prices then a 10-12% tax rate isn't unusual. Even if we went with your version of how you think VAT works then that's a difference of at most 9%, which is massively offset by the savings possible with corporation tax in certain EU countries (Ireland being the poster child). tl;dr its got bugger all to do with taxes or "cost of business".
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:45:00 - [52] - Quote Othran wrote: Anyway once you add state & local taxes to US prices then a 10-12% tax rate isn't unusual..... I guess I missed that, when did state and local taxes start being applied to Amazon in the US? I know they would like to. Governments have never meet a tax they didn't like.
Herr Esiq Dirt Nap Squad 63	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:47:00 - [53] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Ok, I don't agree but that doesn't really matter. Im glad this whole issue doesnt revolve around you agreeing or not, you are wrong on the VAT ristrictions for internal EU market. Here is our local Dutch variant, Google translate it or whatever, i dont care, but you are wrong: http://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/douane/goederen_ontvangen_uit_het_buitenland/van_organisaties_en_bedrijven/moet_ik_belastingen_bij_invoer_betalen_zo_ja_hoe_bereken_ik_dat
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:55:00 - [54] - Quote Herr Esiq wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Ok, I don't agree but that doesn't really matter. Im glad this whole issue doesnt revolve around you agreeing or not, you are wrong on the VAT ristrictions for internal EU market. Here is our local Dutch variant, Google translate it or whatever, i dont care, but you are wrong: http://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/douane/goederen_ontvangen_uit_het_buitenland/van_organisaties_en_bedrijven/moet_ik_belastingen_bij_invoer_betalen_zo_ja_hoe_bereken_ik_dat Ok... I trust you. Amazon DE take 19% VAT from German citizens and then pays out way less and pockets the rest. And the German government has no issue with this. No problem.
0mez Republic University Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:02:00 - [55] - Quote The people that are trying to state about VAT are wrong, the last time I checked VAT it wasn't 100%. Also trying to base this in a product market is completely wrong too; physical items are more expensive in countries because of their shipping cost from origin of manufacture, how has that got anything to do with an item that's sent via email ./ electronically for FREE?
Herr Esiq Dirt Nap Squad 63	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:03:00 - [56] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Herr Esiq wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Ok, I don't agree but that doesn't really matter. Im glad this whole issue doesnt revolve around you agreeing or not, you are wrong on the VAT ristrictions for internal EU market. Here is our local Dutch variant, Google translate it or whatever, i dont care, but you are wrong: http://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/douane/goederen_ontvangen_uit_het_buitenland/van_organisaties_en_bedrijven/moet_ik_belastingen_bij_invoer_betalen_zo_ja_hoe_bereken_ik_dat Ok... I trust you. Amazon DE take 19% VAT from German citizens and then pays out way less and pockets the rest. And the German government has no issue with this. No problem. I strongly get the feeling you are outright trolling now, but yes, they have issues with it but those issues wont be resolved over night. Well known tax havens are: The Netherlands Cyprus Malta Ireland Luxembourg Switzerland Monaco Probably forgetting more, but a lot of countries have 'specific tax cuts' on certain areas to pull that type of companies to their country. But still, import and export within the EU is free, you just have to get your stuff cheaply within the EU borders! I worked for years for a company thats founded on Malta, yet every employee was Dutch and lived there. No issues there. Avoiding tax is good, evading tax is bad.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:07:00 - [57] - Quote 0mez wrote: ...how has that got anything to do with an item that's sent via email ./ electronically for FREE?... Because a company is going to spread fixed cost across much of the business.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:11:00 - [58] - Quote Herr Esiq wrote: I strongly get the feeling you are outright trolling now, but yes, they have issues with it but those issues wont be resolved over night. Well known tax havens are:... Not trolling... just we have come to a road block on how VAT works in Germany. You know how it works here in Germany... my experience with it over the last ten years is different. My experience: the sale of good from a German company to a German resident are taxed at 19% and that money goes to the government. You say it it doesn't work that way. No need to argue.
Herr Esiq Dirt Nap Squad 63	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:14:00 - [59] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Herr Esiq wrote: I strongly get the feeling you are outright trolling now, but yes, they have issues with it but those issues wont be resolved over night. Well known tax havens are:... Not trolling... just we have come to a road block on how VAT works in Germany. You know how it works here in Germany... my experience with it over the last ten years is different. My experience: the sale of good from a German company to a German resident are taxed at 19% and that money goes to the government. You say it it doesn't work that way. No need to argue. Your digital purchase is handled through a Luxembourgian company VAT is applied in Luxembourg, stop dragging Germany into this.
Bi-Mi Lansatha RillaCorp Northern Associates. 208	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:19:00 - [60] - Quote Herr Esiq wrote: Your digital purchase is handled through a Luxembourgian company VAT is applied in Luxembourg, stop dragging Germany into this. Is it? That doesn't seem to be what Amazon.de is saying. Did I read it wrong? VAT (value-added tax) on goods In accordance with the laws governing members of the European Union, Amazon.de is obliged to charge VAT (Umsatzsteuer) on all orders delivered to destinations in member countries of the EU. The VAT rate in Germany is only 7% on books, groceries (beverages and gift baskets excluded) and pet food. Items in our catalogue besides books, groceries and pet food are subject to the regular VAT rate of 19%. These also include, audiobooks, CD-roms, calendars, software items, and more. The amounts displayed for goods sold by Amazon.de are inclusive of German VAT. However, your final price may differ depending on the actual VAT rate that applies to your order. If it is Luxembourg, then we are talking about 15%? Umsatzsteuers+ñtze in der EU Umsatzsteuers+ñtze f++r Artikel, die in die Europ+ñische Union versandt werden, h+ñngen von der Art des Artikels und dem Bestimmungsland ab. Alle Angaben ohne Gew+ñhr. Bitte beachten Sie die folgenden +änderungen: Der Mehrwertsteuersatz f++r Slowenien wurde zum 01.07.2013 erh+¦ht. Der regul+ñre Mehrwertsteuersatz betr+ñgt nun 22%, der reduzierte Satz 9,5%. Luxemburg 15%

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