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Archa4 Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2013.10.16 08:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:Gypsio III wrote:There's already a perfectly good line of shield-tanked faction missile ships. We don't need another. Like what? Where is there a pirate faction missile BS? Navy Hookbill, Navy Caracal, Navy Raven. I said faction, not pirate faction. The difference between pirate faction and navy faction is basically semantics and RP, neither of which actually matters. If you're unhappy with the CN ships, ask for them to be balanced rather than leaving them broken while demanding a new line of ships that would just obsolete them.
I'm sorry but did you even read the first post in the thread?
There are navy BS for every faction and for every type of guns, but there is no pirate faction ship aimed at missiles (Try using Rattlesnake with missiles and without drones - and you are dead). Navy Hookbill, Navy Caracal, Navy Raven and Navy Drake are not Pirate BS, not even close. |
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
58
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Posted - 2013.10.16 08:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
The problem with adding a pirate missile battleship designed for PvE is that it wouldn't add anything we haven't seen on other similar ships. Let's take a look at all the bonuses that would be worthwhile for a lvl4 mission running, missile-based ship:
-Missile damage -Missile velocity or flight time -Missile explosion velocity -Bonus to Target painters -Shield boost amount -Shield resistances
They were all seen on CNR, Golem or Navy Scorp, and recycling is bad.
Also, if you want to go armour, may I present you a Typhoon. So the only worthwhile idea for your ship I can think of is to be something that relates to Golem in similar way that Vindicator relates to Kronos, meaning a lot less tank, better DPS and a lot faster to train for. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
451
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Posted - 2013.10.16 10:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
There is a rumour the Gila is changing, see CCP posts in the SoE thread. Concerns were raised the SoE Pirate Cruiser would step on the Gila's toes, and a mention was made that the Gila is probably changing to something else. Which hints that that entire line has a chance at least on becoming the Pirate Missile ships you have been clamouring for for ages. --- Also hints that the Pirate ships are already starting a balance pass as well of course, and suggests they might be the Rubicon 1.1 release. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
895
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Posted - 2013.10.16 10:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Gypsio III wrote:scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:Gypsio III wrote:There's already a perfectly good line of shield-tanked faction missile ships. We don't need another. Like what? Where is there a pirate faction missile BS? Navy Hookbill, Navy Caracal, Navy Raven. I said faction, not pirate faction. The difference between pirate faction and navy faction is basically semantics and RP, neither of which actually matters. If you're unhappy with the CN ships, ask for them to be balanced rather than leaving them broken while demanding a new line of ships that would just obsolete them. I'm sorry but did you even read the first post in the thread? There are navy BS for every faction and for every type of guns, but there is no pirate faction ship aimed at missiles (Try using Rattlesnake with missiles and without drones - and you are dead). Navy Hookbill, Navy Caracal, Navy Raven and Navy Drake are not Pirate BS, not even close.
Of course I read it. It doesn't matter that they're not pirate BS. Introducing a pirate shield missile BS line superior in PVE to the CN ships would leave the Navy ships obsolete and unused. It's entirely pointless. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
242
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Posted - 2013.10.16 10:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote: Of course I read it. It doesn't matter that they're not pirate BS. Introducing a pirate shield missile BS line superior in PVE to the CN ships would leave the Navy ships obsolete and unused. It's entirely pointless.
This. CCP tried this before. AF"s were basically trash we asked to fix them, they gave us......dramiel. Yay, several reasons AF's sucked got +1 reason to not fly.
Why I will ask these people....what exactly is "broken" on either golem, SNI, or CNR to need this in the first place?
Each has their own thing and does it well. I am sensing new ship because it cool. So tell me how am I wrong. Because nothing is better than CNR is not an argument. CNR is a good ship. Golem is too however. I have read most of the Golem vs CNR debates and to me when they break down to eft calculations to show the value of paint over CNR bonuses....well liars figure and figures lie.
Now as a flip side , I can see why vindi exists for example. Something was lacking in the gun based gallente bs lineup for a while. kronos is hated (atm, nov may change) more than liked, navy mega had its moment of greatness....and not so greatness. Vindi filled in a gap.
Also worth noting it completes the circle of fail. Did not fix kronos for years, navy mega only got a redo recently (I like its changes, they grew on me). Combine these ships neglected for years and the rise of vindi dominance kind of a no crapper really. |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
The Wise Man's Fear You Failed the Mumble Test
1
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Posted - 2013.10.16 14:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Archa4 Badasaz wrote:Gypsio III wrote:scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:Gypsio III wrote:There's already a perfectly good line of shield-tanked faction missile ships. We don't need another. Like what? Where is there a pirate faction missile BS? Navy Hookbill, Navy Caracal, Navy Raven. I said faction, not pirate faction. The difference between pirate faction and navy faction is basically semantics and RP, neither of which actually matters. If you're unhappy with the CN ships, ask for them to be balanced rather than leaving them broken while demanding a new line of ships that would just obsolete them. I'm sorry but did you even read the first post in the thread? There are navy BS for every faction and for every type of guns, but there is no pirate faction ship aimed at missiles (Try using Rattlesnake with missiles and without drones - and you are dead). Navy Hookbill, Navy Caracal, Navy Raven and Navy Drake are not Pirate BS, not even close. Of course I read it. It doesn't matter that they're not pirate BS. Introducing a pirate shield missile BS line superior in PVE to the CN ships would leave the Navy ships obsolete and unused. It's entirely pointless. Missile ships have the Navy line so we should just be happy with that while turrets keep getting more ships? |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
175
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Posted - 2013.10.16 16:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Must be based on rokh, would launch like a nuclear sub :D |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
324
|
Posted - 2013.10.16 16:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Well being as SOE is getting faction ships, perhaps they'll do another faction like this one.
Mordu's Legion comes to mind. They're a missile based faction. |
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals Market and Contract PVP
32
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Posted - 2013.10.16 16:37:00 -
[39] - Quote
To summarize the 1st post:
"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different" |
Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2013.10.16 17:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
Electrique Wizard wrote:To summarize the 1st post:
"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different"
I think it sucks that currently all missile battleships are "stuck" at the same theoretical DPS limit. Which if what I heard is true, and the game is balanced at the tech II level means 888DPS. that's 4 tech II damage mods, and tech II CM launchers using the "Fury" tech II missiles with all skills V.
Every Pirate BS hull in the game can exceed that number rather easily.
If you go "all out" with faction mods and +6% HWs you get 1066DPS. And that can still be exceeded by every Pirate hull BS in the game, although it's harder with the Bhaalgorn.
What I am interested to know is, how exactly does CCP figure "max" DPS, and why did CCP settle on the 888 and/or 1066 DPS maximum we have now if they don't intend to release a pirate hull with more later?
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FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance
175
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Posted - 2013.10.16 18:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Expanding on the Rokh, give it rapid heavy missile launcher bonuses to sig/exp as well as damage. |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
The Wise Man's Fear You Failed the Mumble Test
1
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Posted - 2013.10.16 22:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jasmine Assasin wrote:Electrique Wizard wrote:To summarize the 1st post:
"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different" I think it sucks that currently all missile battleships are "stuck" at the same theoretical DPS limit. Which if what I heard is true, and the game is balanced at the tech II level means 888DPS. that's 4 tech II damage mods, and tech II CM launchers using the "Fury" tech II missiles with all skills V. Every Pirate BS hull in the game can exceed that number rather easily. If you go "all out" with faction mods and +6% HWs you get 1066DPS. And that can still be exceeded by every Pirate hull BS in the game, although it's harder with the Bhaalgorn. What I am interested to know is, how exactly does CCP figure "max" DPS, and why did CCP settle on the 888 and/or 1066 DPS maximum we have now if they don't intend to release a pirate hull with more later? I agree, my RNI with near perfect skills and some 5% implants with CN BCS's gets just over 930 dps using T2 launchers and Fury cruises.
To answer with a smart-ass, half-serious answer, it's because CCP has a hate-boner for missiles. We're supposed to be satisfied with lower dps, delayed damage, and less module selection because we get to pick damage type that always hits. |
Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2013.10.16 23:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
To answer with a smart-ass, half-serious answer, it's because CCP has a hate-boner for missiles. We're supposed to be satisfied with lower dps, delayed damage, and less module selection because we get to pick damage type that always hits.
To be fair, until they actually come out and tell us I think it's safe to assume that this is in fact the case.
It's like when the Government can "neither confirm nor deny" something which pretty much means "yes, but we can't say that out loud", in this case CCP hasn't given us an answer so it probably has some truth to it.
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Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1077
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
All bow before the torpedo-lobbing jet-black Khanid Abaddon.
5% Torp and Cruise Damage 4% Armor Resists
You know you want this.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
The Wise Man's Fear You Failed the Mumble Test
2
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Posted - 2013.10.17 00:39:00 -
[45] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:All bow before the torpedo-lobbing jet-black Khanid Abaddon.
5% Torp and Cruise Damage 4% Armor Resists
You know you want this.
You're half right, I know I really don't want it. The Raven is slow enough before it has sex with an Amarr ship and you start adding armor plates. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 00:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:You're half right, I know I really don't want it. The Raven is slow enough before it has sex with an Amarr ship and you start adding armor plates. Sure, it's not a Machariel - but the RNI isn't a slouch, either. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:All bow before the torpedo-lobbing jet-black Khanid Abaddon.
5% Torp and Cruise Damage 4% Armor Resists
You know you want this.
Too slow, not enough range, do not want. But if putting that in game gives us a better shot at having a real pirate hull CM spewing BS then I'm all for it. Not that either of these things will become reality. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
423
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 01:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maybe with the introduction of the SOE ships they will push Guristas ships closer to missile ships.
Honestly I hope they just scrap drones entirely on Guristas ships and focus on making them heavy tanking shield missile brawlers- AFAIK there aren't any of these right now. |
Allandri
Liandri Industrial Liandri Covenant
59
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Posted - 2013.10.17 01:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
I want an EoM Deathlord |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
242
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Posted - 2013.10.17 03:40:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jasmine Assasin wrote:Electrique Wizard wrote:To summarize the 1st post:
"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different" I think it sucks that currently all missile battleships are "stuck" at the same theoretical DPS limit. Which if what I heard is true, and the game is balanced at the tech II level means 888DPS. that's 4 tech II damage mods, and tech II CM launchers using the "Fury" tech II missiles with all skills V. Every Pirate BS hull in the game can exceed that number rather easily. If you go "all out" with faction mods and +6% HWs you get 1066DPS. And that can still be exceeded by every Pirate hull BS in the game, although it's harder with the Bhaalgorn. What I am interested to know is, how exactly does CCP figure "max" DPS, and why did CCP settle on the 888 and/or 1066 DPS maximum we have now if they don't intend to release a pirate hull with more later?
fit torps.....
Your high dps pirates you are referencing are generally the max damage setups as as well. Eft a rail vindi and then a blaster one....see the damage drop off just a bit with rails. When comparing apples use apples. Blaster vindi would be an orange.
CM also has better range. Your 888 with right skills and setup can fire from far far away. Now we could argue missile mechanics chipping away at the damage. We could also argue blaster vindi to get added range has to drop high damage ammo for ranged to not be kited/sniped not able to fire a shot if stuck inside a bubble. Well it could fire...jsut if enemy is well out of falloff its not doing anything good for the vindi lol.
Or rail vindi while not as screwed as Rokh (rokh lacking tracking bonus) will not hit as much a target that does something real basic....not stand still.
Bubble added of course to keep it a captive audience for a but not needing tackles.
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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
The Wise Man's Fear You Failed the Mumble Test
2
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Posted - 2013.10.17 05:01:00 -
[51] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Jasmine Assasin wrote:Electrique Wizard wrote:To summarize the 1st post:
"I want a whole line of same sized ships that use the exact same weapon type and are good at the exact same thing, while still being different" I think it sucks that currently all missile battleships are "stuck" at the same theoretical DPS limit. Which if what I heard is true, and the game is balanced at the tech II level means 888DPS. that's 4 tech II damage mods, and tech II CM launchers using the "Fury" tech II missiles with all skills V. Every Pirate BS hull in the game can exceed that number rather easily. If you go "all out" with faction mods and +6% HWs you get 1066DPS. And that can still be exceeded by every Pirate hull BS in the game, although it's harder with the Bhaalgorn. What I am interested to know is, how exactly does CCP figure "max" DPS, and why did CCP settle on the 888 and/or 1066 DPS maximum we have now if they don't intend to release a pirate hull with more later? fit torps..... Your high dps pirates you are referencing are generally the max damage setups as as well. Eft a rail vindi and then a blaster one....see the damage drop off just a bit with rails. When comparing apples use apples. Blaster vindi would be an orange. CM also has better range. Your 888 with right skills and setup can fire from far far away. Now we could argue missile mechanics chipping away at the damage. We could also argue blaster vindi to get added range has to drop high damage ammo for ranged to not be kited/sniped not able to fire a shot if stuck inside a bubble. Well it could fire...jsut if enemy is well out of falloff its not doing anything good for the vindi lol. Or rail vindi while not as screwed as Rokh (rokh lacking tracking bonus) will not hit as much a target that does something real basic....not stand still. Bubble added of course to keep it a captive audience for a but not needing tackles. Except that CCP has engineered the new breed of torps to only be good against Deathstar sized stationary targets unless you have at least 1 bazillion Target Painters. (Yes, that's an exact number, I calculated it myself using completely made up numbers in a made up formula that make as much sense as what CCP does.) |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
567
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Posted - 2013.10.17 05:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Maybe with the introduction of the SOE ships they will push Guristas ships closer to missile ships. Honestly I hope they just scrap drones entirely on Guristas ships and focus on making them heavy tanking shield missile brawlers- AFAIK there aren't any of these right now.
Never heard of a SFI I assume. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
340
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Posted - 2013.10.17 06:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
Torpedoes suck - there's really no other way to put it. If you want to make torpedoes interesting cut the flight time to 2 seconds and give them a base 10,000 m/sec velocity. That's a base 20km range (which torpedoes need buffed), and no ones going to be complaining about the damage then. Why should they be slow and lumbering anyway? The explosion radius is huge so we know there's not much for guidance, and the range is extremely short so obviously they pack more warhead for a faster delivery. I'd also increase the rate of fire by maybe 5-10% on torpedoes so they're a bit faster. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
122
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Posted - 2013.10.17 11:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
How about actually useful Worm/Gila? Make them straight missile ships with drone velocity bonuses or something. I think there isn't enough imagination being used for these gurista ships. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals Market and Contract PVP
32
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Posted - 2013.10.17 12:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:How about actually useful Worm/Gila? Make them straight missile ships with drone velocity bonuses or something. I think there isn't enough imagination being used for these gurista ships.
But then people would cry about not having any "real" pirate droneboats. You're taking away the one turd and turning it into another turd.
Als to respond to the one crying about Cruise's having a lower maximum damage than lets say blasters; maybe that's because most blasters need tracking and dont hit over 100km.
You guys have to remember, besides explosm velocity and such missiles always have perfect "tracking", combine that with decent range and no cap usage you have a pretty easy win weapon system. Its only natural it does less (applied) dps compared to other weapon systems. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1171
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Posted - 2013.10.17 12:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'm pretty sure the day a T2 Khanid Abaddon exists, the lack of a CNR upgrade for missile hell death will be resolved.
Of course, I just want a Khabaddon >.> Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
60
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Posted - 2013.10.17 14:56:00 -
[57] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote: fit torps.....
Your high dps pirates you are referencing are generally the max damage setups as as well. Eft a rail vindi and then a blaster one....see the damage drop off just a bit with rails. When comparing apples use apples. Blaster vindi would be an orange.
CM also has better range. Your 888 with right skills and setup can fire from far far away. Now we could argue missile mechanics chipping away at the damage. We could also argue blaster vindi to get added range has to drop high damage ammo for ranged to not be kited/sniped not able to fire a shot if stuck inside a bubble. Well it could fire...jsut if enemy is well out of falloff its not doing anything good for the vindi lol.
Or rail vindi while not as screwed as Rokh (rokh lacking tracking bonus) will not hit as much a target that does something real basic....not stand still.
Bubble added of course to keep it a captive audience for a but not needing tackles
Okay, after some investigating I have come to a conclusion...ish.
-----------------------------dmg spread, SR LR hi dmg Cms vs Torps (all)---- 294, 888 - 1182 hi dmg rail vs blaster Vindi---- 560, 900 - 1460 hi dmg arty vs ACs Mach------ 334, 801 - 1135 hi dmg tachs vs pulses NM--- 152, 931 - 1083 averages-------------------------- 335, 880 - 1215 All Vs, no implants, 4 tech II damage mods in lows. (SR/LR denote short range max dmg ammo and long range max dmg ammo)
My conclusion is;
I think this says more about lasers than any of the other platforms and puts me in a bit of a bind...
However to be fair, I was basing my assumptions off what are the most common fits. How many people fit rails on a Vindi? Or use arty Machs? You have to have implants and/or fitting mods to make that work even with perfect skills. Although people do it in Incursions because "dat alpha" so they make good sniper boats. But outside that niche It just doesn't make sense to do it. The Vindi doesn't have enough lock range to properly take advantage of rails, although it has no issue making the fit work otherwise. Torps are great paper DPS, but in practice only the Navy Raven and Golem can use them to "full" effect.
In short, I do see your point but in practice I'm not sure if it really matters that much. There are constraints that make certain things just "not work" even if "on paper" it looks like it should. |
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