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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
264
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Posted - 2011.12.04 22:49:00 -
[601] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO.
-Liang
Which is pretty much how it used to be before the last Proj buff, although back then it was more of a knife-edge, hence why really good pilots used to do well with Minmatar but most couldn't handle it. I still think TE's need knocking back to a 15% Falloff boost though rather than an outright DPS nerf to projectiles or ships, first of all to stop ships with falloff bonuses being a bit silly like the Vaga, Mach etc. Second is that as it'll also affect blasters reach it won't make too much difference to the size of kiting zones for the normal ships, just move the ships slighly closer together.
Unless the Winmatar pilot screws up in a big way, your blasterboat is screwed and there's nothing you can do. With window as big as it is atm, it's hard to screw up.
Liang Nuren wrote:Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:Been playing for about a year, with a little bit of PvP experience; the experienced players that got me into the game have said that the Minmatar's main strengths, and more specifically, projectile weapons, is the ability to change the damage type they do. While the hybrid weapons have had a nice buff, they are still limited to kinetic/thermal.
Is this or is this not as big a liability as I've been led to believe? This is a harder question than it initially sounds like. IMO, its just not as big of a liability as it sounds like - and here's two reasons why I think so: - There are a lot of people omnitanking - or at least putting some effort in to cover resist holes. In these situations, Kin/Thm is either going to be the best damage types to be dealing or will be second best. Either way, its a safe bet - and you don't have to look any further than the popularity of RF PP to know this. Take a look at your favorite ship fittings and I think you'll see what I'm talking about here. - T2 ships kinda throw a monkey wrench into this. T2 Caldari/Gallente ships can be tough nuts to crack, but T2 Minmatar and Amarr are actually weak to you. This is one of the times when I'm going to say that being able to switch damage types is really nice - though it will probably even out over time. -Liang
-You'd have to try really hard to actually leave a kin/therm hole. -By t2 Caldari/Gallante, do you mean tier 2, thus the drake? T2 Caldari/Gallante consists of boosted kin/therm resists and gaping em/exp holes, as opposed to Minmatar/Amar omnitank. In any case, there's the diemost, and there are the slowboats that get whacked until it dies. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
47
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:01:00 -
[602] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: What you just said: - Nerf projectiles - Nerf blasters - Boost lasers
******* brilliant. /facepalm
-Liang
You really hate lasers don't you Liang?
Nerfing TE's back down is hardly a nerf to blasters as the difference between 15% and 30% bonus to falloff is pretty small, almost nonexistant in terms of smalls and mediums. TBH, the speed and agilty changes just introduced should be the deciding factor in engagements where that difference would come into play.
Lasers don't really get boosted either and if anything, forcing blaster and ac boats to get closer to laser users should mean they come up trumps via getting under the guns and using their now superior tracking.
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
27
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:11:00 -
[603] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Goose99 wrote:Almost as fast = slower = getting kited until it dies. Until Gallante blasterboat is actually faster than Winmatar, by which I meant not just slightly faster, but rather able to catch up before it pops, nothing will change. The great thing about kiting is that you have to respond to what the other person is doing. If you let them get too far away, they just warp off and you're no more effective than a cruise missile Raven at 250km. If you let them too close, you just lost the fight outright. The thing about it is that now you're trying to kite someone that's almost exactly the same speed as you are, with almost exactly the same agility. Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO. -Liang
No, i-¦m flying Minnies threading the needle and i can tell you the difference is still more than enough. Also Minnie ships very often have utility highs as well, very useful for close combat because nos/neut can be deadly here, while the race that is optimized for close combat is quite immune to it (well, their weaponry anyway). Usually my opponents are soon capless if they are letting me closing in with Minmatar.
Sure, the Gallente work better now, especially if you know how to max out their performance as well, but for the same amount of effort the Minnies not only work, they shine. Not to mention that the limit what they can achieve is considerably higher than anything that is possible with Gallente.
The return of investment (you put in effort and ability and get out performance) is simply orders of magnitudes bigger for minmatar than for gallente. It-¦s a direct consequence of the fact that the basic design of the Gallente isn-¦t optimized for close combat and sniping, but the Minmatar basic design is. Of course trying to go against the basic design will always end up with a gimped solution. It might work somehow like this http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xwE0rBDpg1Y/SBhUpqJ4mDI/AAAAAAAAAqY/GvSZC1MDWjU/s320/overloaded-car.jpg, but you will never get anywhere close to the results when using the right tool for the task like this http://www.daloexports.com/Photos/LoadedTruck%20copy.jpg. "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:12:00 -
[604] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:You really hate lasers don't you Liang? Nerfing TE's back down is hardly a nerf to blasters as the difference between 15% and 30% bonus to falloff is pretty small, almost nonexistant in terms of smalls and mediums. TBH, the speed and agilty changes just introduced should be the deciding factor in engagements where that difference would come into play. Lasers don't really get boosted either and if anything, forcing blaster and ac boats to get closer to laser users should mean they come up trumps via getting under the guns and using their now superior tracking.
You need to remember that combat is measured in absolute distances while TEs give relative bonuses. This means something specific in the "real world" of Eve. Consider that Blasters have a naturally small window of advantage - if you're too close you have tracking issues and if you're too far you are losing lots of damage to falloff.
Lets suppose that window is 500m wide. A TE doesn't increase the width of that window by 30% to make it 500m wide - it increases it by 1-2km and is thus a 500% increase. Now suppose that window was 10km wide as a high falloff weapon would have. Now the extra 3-4km just isn't as big of a deal and you're much closer to the suggested "30%" nerf.
Also - Uh, no man - I ******* love lasers. I just don't think they need boosted compared to hybrids and projectiles. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
232
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:16:00 -
[605] - Quote
until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:21:00 -
[606] - Quote
Sebastian N Cain wrote:No, i-¦m flying Minnies threading the needle and i can tell you the difference is still more than enough.
You can only thread the needle in one direction at a time - 1v1 and you might make it work out. Putting even a small gang on there is going to force you to make hard decisions - like whether or not you should get eaten by lasers at range or close in and get eaten by hybrids up close.
I honestly think people just aren't giving Gallente enough credit right now. Everyone's like "oh they work a bit better" - but its not a bit better. Its ******* amazingly better.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:23:00 -
[607] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats.
How far out do you want a Deimos to outdamage a Vagabond before you consider Null to be "good enough"?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
264
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:28:00 -
[608] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats. How far out do you want a Deimos to outdamage a Vagabond before you consider Null to be "good enough"? -Liang
When diemost manages to catch the vega? |
Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 23:32:00 -
[609] - Quote
Comparing a Diemos to a Vaga paints a pretty good picture of how disconnected you are from this game. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:41:00 -
[610] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats. How far out do you want a Deimos to outdamage a Vagabond before you consider Null to be "good enough"? -Liang When diemost manages to catch the vega?
Bring a Vaga to Amamake and I think I'll arrange a demonstration for you. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2011.12.04 23:45:00 -
[611] - Quote
Damage projection of a Deimos and Vagabond is similar to around 24,000 meters (if I remember correctly). Although it was like that before. Now they use less capacitor and do 5% more damage.
Agility and velocity of the Deimos has been increase significantly too.
I'm not sure about the other things he's on about, but he's correct when it comes to this. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
265
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 00:04:00 -
[612] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote:Damage projection of a Deimos and Vagabond is similar to around 24,000 meters (if I remember correctly). Although it was like that before. Now they use less capacitor and do 5% more damage.
Agility and velocity of the Deimos has been increase significantly too. Also a Deimos has a very large capacitor. Meaning the thing can run a mwd alot longer than a Vagabond can. Again, that has always been the case for awhile now.
I'm not sure about the other things he's on about, but he's correct when it comes to this. Which incidentally would mean he does know what he's talking about. Kinda of funny because the Thorax is in no way better than a Vexor and a Rupture is still better than both. However, a plated Thorax is very close in terms of velocity to a plated Rupture.
Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.
Edit: did a bit of eft warrioring, as I haven't flied diemost in a long time. With null in rack of neutrons and 2 te, it gets 27km range, and does next to no dps at edge of falloff, while going at 2k m/s even with 2 nanos. Vega gets 30km range even without te, 50km with, and goes to 3k m/s. Now I remember why I stopped flying this thing. |
Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
12
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Posted - 2011.12.05 00:08:00 -
[613] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:m0cking bird wrote:Damage projection of a Deimos and Vagabond is similar to around 24,000 meters (if I remember correctly). Although it was like that before. Now they use less capacitor and do 5% more damage.
Agility and velocity of the Deimos has been increase significantly too. Also a Deimos has a very large capacitor. Meaning the thing can run a mwd alot longer than a Vagabond can. Again, that has always been the case for awhile now.
I'm not sure about the other things he's on about, but he's correct when it comes to this. Which incidentally would mean he does know what he's talking about. Kinda of funny because the Thorax is in no way better than a Vexor and a Rupture is still better than both. However, a plated Thorax is very close in terms of velocity to a plated Rupture. Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.
All that sounds just about right.
But LIANG says they're good, so they must be.
-SKINAE |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 00:16:00 -
[614] - Quote
Skinae wrote:Goose99 wrote: Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.
All that sounds just about right. But LIANG says they're good, so they must be. -SKINAE
Something is seriously amiss if a Vagabond is doing "full DPS at point range" and the Deimos is doing "basically no DPS at that range". Afterall, a Deimos will outdamage a standard Vagabond out to 26-30km depending on fits....
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Rysis Vyvorant
Condemned. The Grundle Kings
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 00:27:00 -
[615] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Skinae wrote:Goose99 wrote: Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.
All that sounds just about right. But LIANG says they're good, so they must be. -SKINAE Something is seriously amiss if a Vagabond is doing "full DPS at point range" and the Deimos is doing "basically no DPS at that range". Afterall, a Deimos will outdamage a standard Vagabond out to 26-30km depending on fits.... -Liang
I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....
Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess. |
Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
12
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Posted - 2011.12.05 00:32:00 -
[616] - Quote
Please show me a fit that out dps's a Vaga at 30k with comparable tank, tracking and maneuverability.
-SKINAE
(edit, forgot to add ridiculous attention grabbing signature, even though my name is less than a inch to the left) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 00:38:00 -
[617] - Quote
Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....
Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.
Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.05 00:41:00 -
[618] - Quote
Skinae wrote:Please show me a fit that out dps's a Vaga at 30k with comparable tank, tracking and maneuverability.
-SKINAE
(edit, forgot to add ridiculous attention grabbing signature, even though my name is less than a inch to the left)
A few commments: - If you write longer posts, your name will no longer be an inch to the left. - Your name will not be on the screen at all if someone is viewing the site on a mobile browser. - I've been signing my posts for a very long time. So sorry if it offends you (I'm really not), but no amount of your pathetic ridicule is going to change it. :)
-Liang
Ed: Also, I'm at work right now. Look at a shield tanked Nuetron/Null fit with a couple TEs in the lows. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Matuk Grymwal
Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 02:26:00 -
[619] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Skinae wrote:Please show me a fit that out dps's a Vaga at 30k with comparable tank, tracking and maneuverability.
-SKINAE
(edit, forgot to add ridiculous attention grabbing signature, even though my name is less than a inch to the left) A few commments: - If you write longer posts, your name will no longer be an inch to the left. - Your name will not be on the screen at all if someone is viewing the site on a mobile browser. - I've been signing my posts for a very long time. So sorry if it offends you (I'm really not), but no amount of your pathetic ridicule is going to change it. :) -Liang Ed: Also, I'm at work right now. Look at a shield tanked Nuetron/Null fit with a couple TEs in the lows. At work is a poor excuse. I've put EFT in my Dropbox account so I can EFT ***** anywhere with an internet connection For my gall vs this matar char I get better DPS on the Deimos out to 25. Once I hit 30 the vaga just has the edge. Tracking is essentially the same. EHP is also the same. |
Adria Delphi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 02:36:00 -
[620] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....
Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.
Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that. -Liang
Backpedal harder. |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.05 02:37:00 -
[621] - Quote
Matuk Grymwal wrote:At work is a poor excuse. I've put EFT in my Dropbox account so I can EFT ***** anywhere with an internet connection For my gall vs this matar char I get better DPS on the Deimos out to 25. Once I hit 30 the vaga just has the edge. Tracking is essentially the same. EHP is also the same.
I dislike Pyfa and EFT doesn't run on Linux. So yes, its a good "excuse". IIRC I was seeing the Vaga take an advantage at 26-30km (depending on fittings) so that's not too far from what I was seeing. Undoutedly it comes down to fittings.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.05 02:39:00 -
[622] - Quote
Adria Delphi wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....
Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.
Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that. -Liang Backpedal harder.
You may want to look up what the definition of "backpedal" means. Because I'm damn sure not backing up on the FACT that Gallente isn't nearly as bad as these losers keep making them out to be. Minmatar has never been as good at actually surviving on the battlefield - and threading the needle only works if you expect the damage to be homogeneously ranged.
I will not be surprised next year when people are complaining that Minmatar needs a boost.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Adria Delphi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.12.05 03:11:00 -
[623] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: You may want to look up what the definition of "backpedal" means. Because I'm damn sure not backing up on the FACT that Gallente isn't nearly as bad as these losers keep making them out to be. Minmatar has never been as good at actually surviving on the battlefield - and threading the needle only works if you expect the damage to be homogeneously ranged.
I will not be surprised next year when people are complaining that Minmatar needs a boost.
-Liang
Oh neat you jump backwards and forwards. That must be fun.
Gallente aren't ****, certainly not after the hybrid buff, but you've been occupying two positions here:
a. Gallente were always fine, minmatar has always been par or sub-par, even post proj-buff and everyone is delusional b. Minmatar might be slightly OP, projectiles could possible use a nerf given the situation of hybrids after their buff
These two are not compatible. They are mutually exclusive. You must pick one or continue to look like you're arguing for the sake of argument. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 03:14:00 -
[624] - Quote
Joe Cheap wrote:I dont know what game you re actually playing.
All i see is Tornado' s destroy everything that moves, just saying.
Large weapon that can track cruiser size if not frig it s just silly, and hitting hard in falloff with short weapon like Ac up to 30-40Km... just silly
Large AC's always COULD track cruisers from about 12km out, the difference is that the Tornado is fast enough to be where it needs to be on the field, something that most hadn't experienced without fighting Machariels...
....which is rare because most "PvP' machs NEVER close with 100km they nuke a couple ships from way and GTFO before they get tackled.
Likewise its not a magic bullet, I've killed a couple already with a lowly Hurricane. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
268
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Posted - 2011.12.05 03:30:00 -
[625] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Skinae wrote:Goose99 wrote: Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.
All that sounds just about right. But LIANG says they're good, so they must be. -SKINAE Something is seriously amiss if a Vagabond is doing "full DPS at point range" and the Deimos is doing "basically no DPS at that range". Afterall, a Deimos will outdamage a standard Vagabond out to 26-30km depending on fits.... -Liang
Falloff curve is such that you do around 85% dps 50% into falloff. Cookie cutter kiting vega fit with 2 tes put 50% falloff mark at a bit further than point range, and slightly under oh range. It felt as if you're doing full dmg because, basically, you are. Diemost with 2 tes with null put the edge of falloff at point range, doing almost no dps.
Diemosts I've killed in the past don't have range mods fitted, as they apparently were counting on getting in your face, making them even easier to kite. Haven't ran into any recently, apparently ppl learned to not fly those anymore. Ballooning Winmatar population is a pain though.
Onictus wrote:Joe Cheap wrote:I dont know what game you re actually playing.
All i see is Tornado' s destroy everything that moves, just saying.
Large weapon that can track cruiser size if not frig it s just silly, and hitting hard in falloff with short weapon like Ac up to 30-40Km... just silly
Large AC's always COULD track cruisers from about 12km out, the difference is that the Tornado is fast enough to be where it needs to be on the field, something that most hadn't experienced without fighting Machariels... ....which is rare because most "PvP' machs NEVER close with 100km they nuke a couple ships from way and GTFO before they get tackled. Likewise Tornado isn not a magic bullet, I've killed a couple already with a lowly Hurricane.
Machs are far too expensive for real pvp. That's why there are so many arty sniper gate camper Machs instead of AC gangers. You can't blame them for being risk averse in their 1 bil boats. So yeah, the cane was what made Winmatar what it is, not the Mach. With the introduction of Tornado, Winmatar just got a significant buff. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
136
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Posted - 2011.12.05 03:49:00 -
[626] - Quote
Adria Delphi wrote: a. Gallente were always fine, minmatar has always been par or sub-par, even post proj-buff and everyone is delusional
What? No, your reading comprehension is very poor indeed if you think I've said anything about Gallente being fine pre boost.
Quote:b. Minmatar might be slightly OP, projectiles could possible use a nerf given the situation of hybrids after their buff
Correction: Minmatar could potentially have been slightly OP pre-hybrid boost. Certainly with regards to hybrids, but only questionably with regards to lasers. However, the Hybrid boost has been a lot more substantial than I really gave it credit for - its my belief after playing with it for a while that Gallente are going to push Minmatar out of small gang combat while Amarr have never really allowed anyone else into large gang combat. That leaves medium gangs, where Amarr are still the dominant force.
Yeah, there's still going to be some nice Minnie ships - like the Sleipnir, Vaga, and maybe the cane ... but the race as a whole is now looking very wan indeed to my eyes.
Quote: These two are not compatible. They are mutually exclusive. You must pick one or continue to look like you're arguing for the sake of argument.
Or you could just learn to read and find out that I've not been arguing what you thought I was.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
16
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Posted - 2011.12.05 04:25:00 -
[627] - Quote
Sebastian N Cain wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Sebastian N Cain wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.
-Liang It-¦s only to be expected that people want to try out the changes. As soon as they-¦re gotten their asses kicked as easily as before the "buff", that surge will stop. TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them. -Liang This is because you are just comparing them to their performance before. Previously they made about 30% of the paper damage on average, now they are doing about 40% of the paper damage. Since the basic damage also increased we are talking about a 50% increase of the real damage you are causing. There is the point when you are happy about the changes, they seem so huge. This sounds huge, but there is a logical fallacy involved: You have merely decreased the gap from paper damage to real damage from 30% to 45% on average, so that 50% damage increase is overall relativly pathetic in comparison with the performance of other weapon systems. While only having slightly less basic damage, ACs can easily transfer 80% of their paper damage to real damage on average (if flown efficiently and the pilots aren-¦t sticking around in deep falloff because there you don-¦t need as much skill and mistakes aren-¦t fatal). They are still doing vastly more damage. they are still immune to nos/neut, they are still on the fastest and most agile ships, they have still multiple damage types, shield tanking is a quite common option for Minmatar ships, so buffer tanks doesn-¦t sacrifice speed, also there are often utility highs for nasty surprises like nos/neut, which can be deadly if your opponent needs the cap. Minmatar are designed and optimized for close combat and sniping (yup, Artys are the perfect sniping weapons, especially on the fastest and most agile hulls). They are not OP, they are just seen this way because all the stuff you need for close combat and sniping are married to the most flexible engagement range. They are the ones that should cover the Gallente combat roles, because they would excel on it. The Gallente on the other hand will never work in close combat and sniping. They must not become like the Minmatar, but the Minmatar have what is needed for the roles (The only weapon system working exclusively in nos/neut range needs cap? and another weapon that works outside this range does not? A sniping weapon without huge alpha... there is a good reason why sniping is everywhere high alpha, low rate of fire, and fast and agile units: it just doesn-¦t work otherwise, you can-¦t reasonably implement sniping with low alpha.) So Gallente needs other combat roles, anything else won-¦t solve any balancing issue. So just exchange the weapon ranges of ACs/Blasters and Rails/Artys (with adjustments to damage and tracking for complementing the range changes) and you have solved: Minmatar being OP: they aren-¦t op, they are just designed for another combat role, so they should specialize... and they should -and can- absolutely excel in their specialty. Gallente being gimped: the most flexible engagement range is enough to offset the many shortcomings, while the latter will make sure they won-¦t be op in their new role. They make a good generalist: not really outstanding anywhere, but a viable alternative everywhere. Caldari turret ships: they will become useful. Not outstandingly good, but Caldari won-¦t be just only missiles any more. reintroduced sniping: sniping can only be done with huge alpha, therefore artys (a slight increase of probing time might be neccessary, snipers need just barely enough time to get off one shot and then change position).
So much "wrong" that it boggles the mind. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
68
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Posted - 2011.12.05 04:56:00 -
[628] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Adria Delphi wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Rysis Vyvorant wrote: I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....
Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.
Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that. -Liang Backpedal harder. You may want to look up what the definition of "backpedal" means. Because I'm damn sure not backing up on the FACT that Gallente isn't nearly as bad as these losers keep making them out to be. Minmatar has never been as good at actually surviving on the battlefield - and threading the needle only works if you expect the damage to be homogeneously ranged. I will not be surprised next year when people are complaining that Minmatar needs a boost. -Liang
Gallente weren't that bad. HYBRIDS sucked bad. Minmatar aren't that bad but projectiles were out of whack.
How things stack up now is a far larger question than how they used to be. It will be months until we see how everything works out.
Balancing does not mean "our turn at over powered!" - many in this thread seem to use to justify projectiles based upon "at one time..." Long ago; perhaps but that *IS* LONG ago - not since I've been playing and that is over 2 years.
ANY nerf or additional buffs "elsewhere" won't be accurate until it is known where things are due to changes that just came out. It would be inaccurate adjustments without "use" metrics and those won't be available until things have been used for a while.
Again - "wait and see". Until players use them a lot, nobody will know how they stack up to "adjust correctly". This usage will take months and this "nerf now" thread is out of line until we do know where things are - not where they were before the hybrid fixes and ship tweaks. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
232
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Posted - 2011.12.05 05:02:00 -
[629] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Ed: Also, I'm at work right now. Look at a shield tanked Nuetron/Null fit with a couple TEs in the lows.
you mean the 17k EHP fit? wtf are u gonna kill with that? Deimos needs at least one more mid for a half-assed shield tank.
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Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
64
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Posted - 2011.12.05 05:27:00 -
[630] - Quote
there was little wrong with Minmatar ships before the buff - and typical of CCP, it was an over buff.
1) Direct DPS buff 2) TE Buff 3) Damage type buff
personally I think that the TE buff should be nullified entierly. That will bring AC ranges down again. THe 9% DD buff should go down to 5% (a 4% reduction in dps), and the damage types should be returned to the previous mixed damage types - and that kind of bonus be given to Hybrids (ala hybrids do 'pure damage'). |
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