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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4846
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:27:00 -
[571] - Quote
Why am I even posting here, it seems we've gotten all the relevant information? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
392
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:32:00 -
[572] - Quote
Change is good. More tears for the tear throne.
The amount of goon ship toasting in this thread is a wonderful indicator of things to come. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17017
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:37:00 -
[573] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Change is good. Not really, no. Good change is good. Bad changes, such as making the data export not export data, on the other hand is not good.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:45:00 -
[574] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Change is good. Not really, no. Good change is good. Bad changes, such as making the data export not export data, on the other hand is not good.
Yeah, I understand and agree with the intent but buggering with API data is the wrong way to achieve it. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1387
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:46:00 -
[575] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Just had another brilliant idea you can do with these siphons... you can use an alt, and rob your corp/alliance with them while remaining in the corp/alliance. I am thinking you could achieve this by deploying them with covert ops, then returning with a blockade runner, and do drive by ( warp in cloaked to a bookmark, align to a point that will take you within distance of picking the product up from the siphon, uncloak quickly, pick the stuff up, warp off) pick ups while aligned to a warp out point. Will have to mess around with it on the Test server to see if this can be done.
does the full api show alts? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
393
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:48:00 -
[576] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Change is good. Not really, no. Good change is good. Bad changes, such as making the data export not export data, on the other hand is not good. Nothing about this change is bad. Most of the worthwhile moons in the game are owned by two(?) powerblocks. They want to use their resources to **** with each other? Good, not like that hasn't happened before.
The only thing that changed is that the rest of eve can now partake in moon conflicts. Follow the money. A convenient "value of regions" chart that shows the main cause of the last big war.
The smaller entities don't really have significant assets that are at risk from these siphons. Goons do (see the aforementioned chart ). They have no recourse. What are they gonna do, siphon N3's moons? What do I care. Hence all the shiptoasting in this thread.
This is a good change. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1387
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:50:00 -
[577] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Siphon from CSAAs, steal titan bits.
and that son is where baby titans come from... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
RubaixX
Lyman Alpha Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:03:00 -
[578] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:Make it so you can offline and make it cloak please.
yeah and i want one that can warp cloaked too, with guns.
derp.
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
743
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:05:00 -
[579] - Quote
Gargep Farrow wrote:Not being a null dweller I will not comment on how this will affect gameplay there.
What I do want to comment is that if i were to come on to the forums and whine that my Hulk got blown up while I was AFK how much sympathy would I get? Not one damn bit. In fact I would be told about how poor my play style is?
Think about it.
Actually, that's exactly what happened and miners got massive buffs, so maybe you should think about it. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
178
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:11:00 -
[580] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition? Okay, you be the one to camp all of your POSes with Instacanes. You'll need enough to fast-lock a cloaky hauler--who will need to dumb enough to decloak--or to alpha an inty who might land well outside of optimal.
The problem with this mechanic isn't that "living in your space can prevent it"; the problem is that the opportunity cost for the aggressor is so low compared to the massive PIA it will create for POS owners.
Ironically, GSF has by far the best operational capability to blanket entire Regions with these things. Fix POSes.-á Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one). |
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Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:19:00 -
[581] - Quote
Hmmm...lot of people seem to be reading this differently than me.
Siphons might be a good deal if they were cloaked devices requiring a great deal of time to locate manually without a Bookmark.
But I read blog as saying these units are clearly visible on overview -- not stealth. Collection bay is not locked. They are easy destroyed without any CONCORD consequence (though that seems unnecesary given there is no moon goo where CONCORD shows up). And they cost 10M apiece, have low collection rate and cannot be retrieved...
Siphons seem only to be effective when the owner visits only 1-2 times a month to refuel and collect goo. Even then its not too economic to stack bunches of these siphons thinking they will last a long time and collect lots of goo. Siphons are mainly an expensive and low intensity production harassment measure. Once POS owner are aware that siphons exist, they may need to spend as extra 10 minutes to destroy the current crop of siphons whenever they visit. Moreover siphon will be destroyed be corp rank and file PVP members whenever they happen to pass the POS.
Uncloaked siphons with the given parameters might be usefull if they siphoned off Tower CPU or power instead. So tossing out a enough of them could shut down POS guns and modules.
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1387
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:20:00 -
[582] - Quote
It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec. and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2092
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:22:00 -
[583] - Quote
a compromise regarding the API problem could work as follows: - The API only reports "fake" values as long the stolen stuff is still in the deployable (lore: stuff is still in the POS system, POS is happy since it thinks deployable is part of the system) - as soon someone empties the deployable the POS notices it and the API reports "correct" values of the stuff which is in the POS
in short: automated detection is possible as soon someone takes stuff out of the deployable
regarding balancing: Something tells me that the main balancing factor is the capacity of those deployables. Even if you drop dozen of them they will stop collecting stuff as soon they are full and the pos will run at 100% efficiency (was not stated in the blog, i could be wrong). Catching covops haulers might become a thing... if you would know when they would appear. Thats the missing link what would make it somewhat balanced. The whole process is relatively risk free for the parasite. (deployable explodes automatically short after it is full or something like that?) eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:27:00 -
[584] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Gargep Farrow wrote:Not being a null dweller I will not comment on how this will affect gameplay there.
What I do want to comment is that if i were to come on to the forums and whine that my Hulk got blown up while I was AFK how much sympathy would I get? Not one damn bit. In fact I would be told about how poor my play style is?
Think about it. Actually, that's exactly what happened and miners got massive buffs, so maybe you should think about it.
Easy, If I park a Hulk in the wrong belt and go AFK I will come back to my computer and find myself in a station needing to pay to upgrade my clone and buy new implants and Hulk. And again I will still get no sympathy.
Now having said that, aside from the whining about AFK and POS's, I am willing to see your point. Looking at the Warp speed changes also coming in Rubicon, I am willing to believe that this change may also be imbalanced and from the other comments here I could see how it may have bad effects on the game economy. Lower moon goo production coupled with having a harder time finding pilots willing to fly a freighter, that will be even slower than they are now, to get the product to market is not a good thing.
Still dont expect me to show any sympathy for the AFK argument. |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:43:00 -
[585] - Quote
Honestly new features like this probably should NOT be written at this time and against a POS model that CCP is promising to radically update within the next year. CCP has no idea of what the new POS will look like in terms of POS modules, POS fits, POS security etc. The more things written like the siphon the harder it will be to code a new POS model in a good and sensible manner - because all sorst of old POS code wil be anchored to pre-mature accessories like sipohons.
True most corp thieves would love to see CCP entrench the current POS model even deeper into EVE to preserve weak security on Corp shared structures like the ship hangar.
However a much larger group would like to see the POS shield bubble go away. Its an unnecessary feature that allows ships under fire to escape combat. The scope of POS shields should go the way of old style Doomsday weapons. When really the unpredictable oscillations of ship shields under fire should never let a ship taken under fire meld and pass the shields of a POS or station.
CCP needs to buckle down to rewriting the new POS model (hopefully a bubbleless one) before wasting time on accessories that if written now will likely need to be largely rewritten to fit a new POS model. |
sayasic
Frontier Explorer's League Nulli Secunda
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:54:00 -
[586] - Quote
Speaking as someone who ran a small corp that had moons, I think this is a great idea! My corp ran sites in the same systems as our moons and our members knew the importance of the moons. If someone dropped these we would know within a couple hours and get them blown up.
This update may encourage huge entities to stop owning moons directly and instead rent them out giving more to smaller corps. Ahuge win in my book. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4846
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:02:00 -
[587] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition? Okay, you be the one to camp all of your POSes with Instacanes. You'll need enough to fast-lock a cloaky hauler--who will need to dumb enough to decloak--or to alpha an inty who might land well outside of optimal. The problem with this mechanic isn't that "living in your space can prevent it"; the problem is that the opportunity cost for the aggressor is so low compared to the massive PIA it will create for POS owners. Ironically, GSF has by far the best operational capability to blanket entire Regions with these things. Oh, really. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Chigurh Friendo
Stay Frosty.
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:14:00 -
[588] - Quote
One recurring comment in this thread that I feel compelled to address is the notion that our poor, woefully helpless POS owners will be subject to "structure grinding" ("Oh noes!!!") should they wish to eliminate hostile Mobile Siphon Units from their moon harvesting POSes. This assertion is just completely baseless, and it undermines a position already anchored (if you'll pardon the puns) in a tenuous credibility.
The new siphon module, having roughly 50,000 - 100,000 ehp will require roughly 3.3 minutes to "structure grind"... and that assumes a moderate level of damage output (500 dps vs. 100k ehp).
"That long!? Whatever will we do!? Heavens no!!"
While it is laughable to consider this interval of time "structure grinding", I'm sure that even our 20-page-thread-worth of teery-eyed, ****-posting POS-owning friends will figure out a way to speed the process along.
You see, I think we can all agree that this new 'requirement' for our API-fueled, logged off POS lords fits more aptly in the category of "POS-alt pvp aggrandizement" or "POS hygiene" than it does "structure grinding". Consider, for instance, that the aforementioned timeframes and damage rates are more akin to killing belt-rats than "structure grinding"... and that in exchange, the POS owner will get the satisfaction of a glorious Mobile Siphon Unit killmail ("Now with 10M valuation!!! Residual Goon saline sold separately!!!") on their normally useless POS-specific alt... an alt that previously would only get to enjoy brief intervals of being logged in once every two-weeks... and you'll see what I mean. Also, you'll have to understand that with this current rebranding effort from "structure grinding" to the "glorious pvp betterment of the POS alts everywhere", that I'm just trying to help you see guys the upside.
"But what if our dirty rotten scoundrel enemies drop TOO MANY Mobile Siphon Units. What then!?"
Well, far be it from me to tell you guys how to nullsec, but one option you might consider is living in your ******* space and actually responding to movements in that territory... instead of bitching about how your ******* income source ought to be an entirely logged-out AFK-based activity. |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:15:00 -
[589] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec. and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony. Nope, they're quite different.
When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque.
These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up.
Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:29:00 -
[590] - Quote
Klyith wrote:MeBiatch wrote:It just occurred to me but this shyphon unit in principle reminds me of people who ninja salvage wrecks in high sec. and the fact that people in null sec are somewhat upset about it just spews irony. Nope, they're quite different. When I show up in your L4 mission and start stealing wrecks, it's because I'm daring you to fight me. I just stole your lunch money, and while you sputter in spergy rage I'm standing there with my chin out, saying Take your best shot. Of course if you actually hit me you know it'll end badly for you, so you do nothing. But you could. I'm there with my criminal flag, just daring you to get into a fight for once in your life. Very Tyler Durden-esque. These siphons are nothing like that. Nothing about how they work requires or even invites a fight. They're a flaming bag of dog poo left on my front step, and you rang the doorbell and ran away to hide. When I open the door an see this sad little prank bag. Do I stomp on it, getting hot dogshtt all over my shoe? No, I grab a trashbasket and drop it upside down to smother the fire, then take it to the trash on the curb. A pathetic kid's attempt to rile me up. Meanwhile, there are about a thousand other goons heading to the houses of people we don't like, and they've got trashbags full of human fecal matter and gasoline. Don't get in a poop war with Goonfleet. When you put it that way...
we're not only blobbers but cowards who abuse any new feature ?! There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
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Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:29:00 -
[591] - Quote
Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines. |
Narffy
Dominus Imperium
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:35:00 -
[592] - Quote
1. This is going to hurt smaller POS owning corps who do not span all timezones. EVE is a MMO where groups of people are suppose to interact with friends. To interact with those friends you're going to want to be in the same timezone. This game mechanic works against this natural tendency and should not be implemented as is. Even small to medium alliances struggle to cover all timezones.
2. Using siphons to get some moon goo isn't going to be as important as denying the POS owner of their moon goo.
3. Siphons are laughably cheap.
4. Large alliance will no longer need to form a fleet of several dreads and support ships to siege a POS. Instead, they can send one guy with a blockage runner around to several POS' and drop siphons to achieve a similar effect.
5. Goons should send its 10,000 members into lowsec all with blockade runners and lay siphons at all the POS' they can find. Have them also target R8's and R16's. They can create an app to track when siphons are destroyed and what systems they're destroyed in. With the app, they can easily determine what timezones the smaller alliances and corps operate during and place new siphons as soon as the other alliances are no longer online. This could really screw up the T2 market if Goons pull it off correctly.
Perhaps you should add a 24 hour timer before the siphons activate and/or make some other changes. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:40:00 -
[593] - Quote
Narffy wrote: 4. Large alliance will no longer need to form a fleet of several dreads and support ships to siege a POS. Instead, they can send one guy with a blockage runner around to several POS' and drop siphons to achieve a similar effect.
5. Goons should send its 10,000 members into lowsec all with blockade runners and lay siphons at all the POS' they can find. Have them also target R8's and R16's. They can create an app to track when siphons are destroyed and what systems they're destroyed in. With the app, they can easily determine what timezones the smaller alliances and corps operate during and place new siphons as soon as the other alliances are no longer online. This could really screw up the T2 market if Goons pull it off correctly.
...
*shrug*
Progodlegend's elite pvp (siphon edition) squadron will hurt them more. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1116
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:49:00 -
[594] - Quote
Gorion Wassenar wrote:Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines.
It his highly unlikely that any actual live and undelayed interaction with real players takes place in this scenario. That is really bad game design for a conflict driver.
You put down the siphon(s) in a cloakie hauler without the pos-owner being around
You pick up the loot from a siphon without the pos owner (or even the siphon unit owner) being around
You destroy the siphons without the siphon owner being around, either with posguns from within the safety of the pos, or with drones from your covops SOE ship from outside)
Once again: this is a griefing tool and not a great conflict driver. It's about as exciting as dropping and shooting SBUs but with an added financial incentive for the attacker instead.
That's a whole lot of wasted chances for something that could have generated a massive amount of smallscale pvp interactions on Corp, or Corp + friends level. We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:53:00 -
[595] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Gorion Wassenar wrote:Someone should have to, heaven forbid, leave the safety of the shields to remove this. No to the siphon being able to be shot by POS modules. The whole point of this is to make owners be present to get the isk instead of afk money machines. It his highly unlikely that any actual live and undelayed interaction with real players takes place in this scenario. That is really bad game design for a conflict driver. You put down the siphon(s) in a cloakie hauler without the pos-owner being around You pick up the loot from a siphon without the pos owner (or even the siphon unit owner) being around You destroy the siphons without the siphon owner being around, either with posguns from within the safety of the pos, or with drones from your covops SOE ship from outside) Once again: this is a griefing tool and not a great conflict driver. It's about as exciting as dropping and shooting SBUs but with an added financial incentive for the attacker instead. That's a whole lot of wasted chances for something that could have generated a massive amount of smallscale pvp interactions on Corp, or Corp + friends level. Sounds like the sort of thing a group of terrible people who shoot structures in cloaky frigate-class ships and keep running away would do.
How horrible can humans be? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
67
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:53:00 -
[596] - Quote
So POS owners having porous borders and defense is my problem? If you want to play space empire, someone is going to have to play sentry. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4847
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 05:54:00 -
[597] - Quote
Where's the E-HONOR in this? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Pirmasis Sparagas
Bullet Cluster
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:00:00 -
[598] - Quote
Costs only 20m3 to deploy, but can take 1200m3 of minerals? Sounds a little bit fishy to me |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:01:00 -
[599] - Quote
I can't see a downside to having to live in the area your posses are in or risk losing some output.
Funny side effect is that your own corp, alliance members or random blues can empty the Siphons and keep the materials for themselves without leadership ever knowing who stole the goo, only who set up the siphon.
So much potential for fun fun fun Baddest poster ever |
Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 06:03:00 -
[600] - Quote
Have you considered creating a version that siphons POS fuel? |
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