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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
RillaCorp The Kadeshi
218
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:23:00 -
[661] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:...While the statistics and numbers are subject to change pending final balancing...
---Prices and material components are still being worked on, but should be in a ballpark of 10 million.---
---This will be a small version (20 m-¦), so carrying one, or even several, is not much of a constraint for most ships.---
---The stealing happens on the production cycles (once per hour).---
Caveat - I am not a Goon nor have I ever own been involved in Moon Goo.
The price and size of the Mobile Siphon Unit are good (cheap and easily deployed), but the extraction time seems bad. The POS owners should be given an opportunity to take counter action, and it isn't really reasonable for them to be expected to be online 24 hours a day. Change the extraction times to something longer (24 hours?). Active Corps/Alliances should be able to sweep their major moons for MSUs during that period, while those that AFK will suffer.
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Zappity
Kurved Space
557
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:26:00 -
[662] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.
Wormhole reaction ones would be good. Plenty of afk POSes out there. I hope they come in 1.1. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
1290
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:26:00 -
[663] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot?
That sounds like an excellent feature. Nyan |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:26:00 -
[664] - Quote
Did I hear Goons crying in my neighbourhood? Trollface.jpg
It's easy to say "adapt or die", until you have to adapt yourself. WTB Hypocrisy |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
600
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:28:00 -
[665] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot? That sounds like an excellent feature.
No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike.
...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death. |
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:37:00 -
[666] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot? That sounds like an excellent feature. No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike. ...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death.
Simple, we kill the batman
Come on, you can always go to another undefended and hardly visited nullsec to steal more moon goo |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
4079
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:53:00 -
[667] - Quote
This is totally unrelated, but my ADD forces me to tell everybody that i have just realised why SoniClover capitalises the C in his name...
Awesome stuff, btw! |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Northern Associates.
533
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:54:00 -
[668] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:pmchem wrote:For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:
Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.
POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.
Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.
Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields. Good point. Afk playing is getting to be really lame. This might make it worse :(
No it won't.
Currently a moon harvests all month with no player input. Nothing could make that worse short of being able to teleport the goo to Jita. Also for all moons are meant to be conflict drivers they rarely are as it's so prohibitively hard to get a fleet together capable of contesting a moon owned by a major bloc, eg Goons or PL.
When a siphon is placed that's a chance for a defender to decloak and point him. A defender in a stealth bomber could sit outside his pos all day holding thieves in place for the pos guns to kill.
When a siphon is in system it's content. People will scan them down, visit them empty them.
When a siphon is attacked it's content. Maybe the attacker has a hotdrop lined up for when the defenders send a couple of battleships to shoot down the silo.
Silos will draw attention to money moons. Just as people run a lot more hidden sites now that we see the red diamond flash when we enter a system so will people think about conquering a pos when our notice is drawn to the fact it's spewing out dyspro.
More defenders will undock to clear their space of silos. These people will inevitably tangle with roaming gangs. In fact roaming gangs can lay out silos as bait to draw defenders out of stations.
We're going to see a ton of extra fights generated over moon goo which is currently horribly boring. It's boring even to own money moons, just a chore. Changing it to something that needs to be defended and protected quite simply adds fights to the game. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
197
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[669] - Quote
Lallante wrote:
Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting!
Scenario A
Null-sec alliances run around dropping cheap siphons on any r64 and r32 moons they don't control. They're rich enough to spam scores of cheap siphons per moon and not even care too much about collecting the contents.
R64 and R32 mineral supply drop off heavily, especially if some specific materials are focused on. R64 supply can potentially be cut by 75% There is huge market fluctuation as T2 materials adjust to the reduced supply, resulting in doubled Tech 2 prices within a few days.
Eventually people run low on r64 material reserves and T2 prices continue to rise sharply after several months.
GoonSwarm engages in a series of market manipulation moves alongside Burn Jita-style events to ensure further disruption of the market. We'll probably even spam these on low-sec reaction farms solely to grief the owners.
The net result is very expensive T2 ships and mods, GoonSwarm gets richer, and a bunch of pubbies quit running reactions and whine to the forums about grrrrgoooons ruining the game. Thus creating the next generation of posters who won't believe our warnings over CCP's next broken feature.
Scenario B
Just kidding, there are no other scenarios. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
4079
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[670] - Quote
Oh and... couldn't you have chosen an even darker screenshot of it? /s |
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Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
474
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[671] - Quote
In response to these siphons, the price of all moon goo has gone up.
Thanks everyone for even more free isk. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
748
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:55:00 -
[672] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Lallante wrote:Dear goons
Please never, ever, ever change.
New update on the siphon stats: Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day . I never get tired of reading "lol goon tears!!!1" posts. You know, I don't pay a lot of attention to this dumb game, but I've seen this play out numerous times over the years exactly this way: CCP: Presenting new feature X! Goons: X is horribly unbalanced. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1 Goons: v v Well okay then, we're going to exploit the hell out of X. Pubbies: Goons are exploiting X! CCP: We're nerfing X. Pubbies: Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1 I mean, y'all literally have the long term memory of that guy from Memento. Is it really any wonder that we have so little regard for the vast majority of you? That is quite a naive comment when you actively cultivate your collective persona as griefers and scammers. Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC? Because whatever the truth, I guarantee that the vast majority of pubbies would say 'exactly the same'.
That is quite a dumb response when you consider that this has literally happened over and over in publicly accessible sites that you can still search and read. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 11:57:00 -
[673] - Quote
Zakhin Desver wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment. So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot? That sounds like an excellent feature. No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike. ...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death. Simple, we kill the batman Come on, you can always go to another undefended and hardly visited nullsec to steal more moon goo
See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye |
Callduron
Corporate Scum Northern Associates.
533
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:01:00 -
[674] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote: Time to scrap moon mining then!
Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic. At least not while it's AFK passive income. Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.
If we see 2 siphons on every moon then it will be. CAOD: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
198
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:05:00 -
[675] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into.
So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since remote doomsdays, only this time they affect the entire map. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
601
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:08:00 -
[676] - Quote
xttz wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into. So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree.
Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :) |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
749
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:12:00 -
[677] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:xttz wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into. So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree. Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :)
I think you can consider it payment for the service you're providing by keeping our griefing tool running for another 24 hours. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
602
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:18:00 -
[678] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:xttz wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.
Helicity Boson wrote: See where I said "outside of null" ?
kthxbye
We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into. So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree. Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :) I think you can consider it payment for the service you're providing by keeping our griefing tool running for another 24 hours.
I have a pretty good relationship with goons when it comes to griefing as you may recall :)
However my point stands, no entities outside of null will bother extensively putting them up because chances of a payoff are likely low.
If goons want to spend the investment to place them, and you certainly can as evidenced by your generous sponsoring of my last hulkageddon event, that's great for people like me.
Mechanically the system is bad of course, which is what you guys have been trying to say but the bears can't hear because they like to act like 3 year olds going "goon/pirate tears!" at every opportunity.
Perhaps if the material was not actually removed from the POS unless taken from the siphon, and returned if the siphon was destroyed it'd make a bit more sense... though I imagine the coding on that would be infernal. |
Igor Nappi
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:22:00 -
[679] - Quote
I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :) |
Krom Thomson
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:22:00 -
[680] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Having the asset API lie about the contents of silos is the wrong choice in 100% of cases. If you can't build a feature while returning accurate API data, then you need to design a better feature. I cannot believe anyone though that returning INACCURATE API DATA was ever an acceptable choice. Holy ******* ****. Two step wrote:I was talking about that you don't make it send notifications, but any large corp can have enough assets API keys to be able to detect siphoning within an hour.
Does the siphon show up in the lauching pilot's API as well? The assets API doesn't work this way. It has a 6-hour cache timer which is shared across all corporation keys -- you can't make multiple corporate keys and have the assets API refresh more often. sadly i would have to agree that having the api feedback lie to you is the wrong way to do it |
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Krom Thomson
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:28:00 -
[681] - Quote
Turfrider wrote:This is awesome. Good job CCP. About time.
All the people crying about this calling it "horribly unbalanced" lol @ you. Moons are inheriently horribly unbalanced, worried about your SRP? I'm just happy more of you will be forced into the belts to earn a crust so I can kill you :)
Ill be putting 100's of these things up as soon as physically possible, good game.
ok just let me know so i can come steal from it :)
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Krom Thomson
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:29:00 -
[682] - Quote
Now my only question is why can't we pick them up and move them? |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3081
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:30:00 -
[683] - Quote
Always amazing to see the masses of player to afraid to go to null to shoot goons but brave enough to shoot off their mouths at goons on some forum. Up until this year I've made a career of shooting goons and I don't even hate them as much as these forum warriors do.
I mention this because people are so caught up in what they think are goon tears that they aren't looking at the actual issue involved.
These pos siphons seem cool to me, but a little small and easy to carry for the disruption they will cause. I predict several things will happen:
Some prices may start to go up as these things are spammed everywhere. Even is the siphon raiders themself don't make any isk from it (because pos owners will just fly out and get their product back), the part ofthe product that is lost in transit will eventually affect the bottom line.
Tech2 haulers are going to die in droves in the beginning to bubbled POSes. Ceptors won't but ceptors can't haul off the loot either. those same haulers are going to die in droves as they try to get away with the loot through super bubbled gates surrounding the system the POS is in.
Alliances are going to encourage their members to train up pos gunning alts that can fly haulers that can be left logged off everywhere. Whoever thinks these sipons will lead more "patrols" doesn't understand EVE online game mechanics, were you can just log off an alt at a pos and log him in to see whats going on.
Large Alliances will have the manpower to scratch the minor itch these tings will be come. Smaller Alliances will lose a whole bunch of income for the minor moons they mine as smart raiders learn to go after them instead of the big guys who can fight back. This in turn will strengthen the large alliances. Malcanis' Law will now be known and Malcanis' World.
But lets not stop any of that from keeping you guys from enjoying the goon tears. Too bad those tears will be from them laughing all the way to the bank.
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Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
749
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:37:00 -
[684] - Quote
Igor Nappi wrote:I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :)
But that's the beauty of it as a griefing tool; anybody can empty it. People can literally just fly around in a blockade runner, visiting moons and seeing if there's any goo to steal. It's like a bird feeder for blockade runners.
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Frying Doom
2684
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:37:00 -
[685] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Too bad those tears will be from them laughing all the way to the bank. What else is new. While the crappy moon mining mechanic exists they always will. Any spelling and grammatical errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
908
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:38:00 -
[686] - Quote
Igor Nappi wrote:I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :)
Well, it might seem that that content consists largely of an alliance leadership griefing its own members, by making them flying round hostile R64/32s every day spamming siphons that get blown up a few minutes later. But someone could probably just write a bot capable of automating the process, particularly if they'd already mapped the location of all valuable moons in the Eve. |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
396
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:39:00 -
[687] - Quote
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. |
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IamBeastx
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
189
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:42:00 -
[688] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think. new skill for number of siphon units deployabe
All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1353
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:49:00 -
[689] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range. Sure, restrict this to alliances who have the numbers to blanket regions in them, while being nearly immune to small entities who would want to disrupt their income. |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
406
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 12:49:00 -
[690] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
NO to both ideas. The waste is essential to prevent this being zero sum. The waste factor means a siphon isnt pointless EVEN IF the original owner is able to empty it. 10% is too low.
The 5 to 10 limit means no-one will do this for ISK as the max ISK/hourOfEffort is too low (while the risk is high) - a typical scenario might give you 6 - 9 hours or siphon time before being discovered, of which the first 4 are merely recouping the cost of the siphon, leaving at 5 - 12.5m ISK profit per siphon in a day. If you can only deploy 5 thats a max of 60m profit with 50m worth of hardware at risk. Why would anyone do that instead of missioning in empire for an hour.
Instead, make it so that a ship equipped with a cloak cant deploy or empty a siphon, increase the siphon max storage to 5 days or so, and make it so siphons canot even be manually targetted by POS guns. |
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