Moon mining is not passive income. Moon mining is PvP income. I will keep repeating this until people who have never fought over a POS get the idea.

I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if alliance members go round nicking their own alliances moon-goo.

Ah yes, my corp and alliance mates will save the day! Why didn't I realise that before! It must be, hmm, let me think. Oh yeah, any self respecting ratter rats in the systems with the best sec status and does that correlate with most tower farms are? Hmm.. maybe it doesn't. Also, most PVE players tend to POS up the moment a neutral comes in system and they wander off to do something else until the the neural gets blue balled. I am quite certain they will happily run around the 20 to 50 odd moons in the average system to find a small and ****** bit of EHP to grind for no money. Makes perfect sense.

Not only we need to grind through structures to capture space nobody is defending, now we will have to continuously grind through structures to keep profiting from our space that nobody is attacking.

you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters.

and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were offered the system rent free)

hell just say to the renter if any moon goo is lost you have to pay me the difference.

plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol)

moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons.

also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?)

think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops.

Now I think I understand why you're in a NPC corp.

you have heard of providence right? terrible true sec but filled with ratters.

and yes if you provide free rent to null bears they will be more then happy to patrol the system for you. (i know i would if i were offered the system rent free)

hell just say to the renter if any moon goo is lost you have to pay me the difference.

plus d-scan will help reduce the amount of posses you have to fly too. (though those pesky systems with 20 moons around one planet will be a ***** to partrol)

moreover good true sec is usually taken by the host alliance and not the renters. so its logical to just shift some renters to key systems that hold r64-r32 moons.

also you can let the renter know which moons to monitor. (afaik there are limited amount of r64 moons... are there any systems where you have multiple r64 moons? or is it more one r64 max per system?)

think of it as an oppurtunity to fill 0.0 with bears that then can be hunted and provide fun between strat ops.

yes my jita price check and cyno alt is in a npc corp...

do you have a valid point to make or just stating it as an observation.

You seem to be under the ridiculous delusion that

1) all moon owners own r64
2) only large groups own moons

All of that's flat out untrue. Small lowsec groups do happen to own moons, friend, and they are going to be far less able to absorb the way these can completely nullify that income. They also just so happen to be the types I referred to earlier that are far more timezone locked and thus unable to keep the coverage necessary to constantly patrol for these things.

20 mil to grief them out of a third-to-half a day's moon output assuming they're on the ball checking every day? And you think that's a good thing?

I think this is really well thought out. It takes power out of the hands of alliance leadership, and allows small entities or their own line members! - to get their hands on the moon goo. This means that moon goo will never be as subject to restricted supply and market manipulation as was seen in the days of OTEC/NOTEC. This will be good for the market overall and contrary to some goon claims, will make the market more resilient.

I also see this as an opening up of moons to all players. Realistically you need to be in a group of a certain size to control a moon and engage in PVP. This means that for much of the player-base, moon goo means exactly nothing to them. After this change, even a solo player will be able to fly around hunting for siphons others have placed, or dropping their own. This definitely adds depth, and things to do to the game for all players which is A Good Thing.

There will be more activities to conduct while roaming through enemy territory - dropping siphons, or collecting from them (a little?). This might give more reasons to roam, and cause people to spend more time in systems which I suspect will mean there is a greater chance for battles to occur. Perhaps systems owners will even leave one siphon in each system to provide an ambushing point?

Expressing my understanding of your point and position. Don't agree with it, but eh, CCP is determined to ignore us and implement this and then they will nerf it to oblivion once goons complete the cycle of deliberate abuse that has started now that they have warned CCP about it being OP.

Alternatively look at it from an RP perspective...

A 20m3 module that costs 10 mil can within an hour breach the hardened shields of a structure costing between 6x and 26x its cost and extract items. Something that a full 250 man fleet dedicated to that action cannot do in 10's of hours of play (including reinforcement period). it can also reconfigure data systems of the structure and rewrite data logs to mask its actions but wont touch things like onlining/offlining systems and POS shield harmonics cause u know, who'd want to breach those things!


the whole things stupidly short sighted in initial implementation both in a game mechanics sense and in RP sense and seems to be vastly unbalanced in favour of the aggressors. sort it out.

If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:

• Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
• When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
• A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
• The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.

The net effect of which is:

1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered.

2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty.

3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.

If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:

• Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
• When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
• A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
• The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.

The net effect of which is:

1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered.

2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty.

3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.

If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:

• Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
• When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
• A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
• The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.

The net effect of which is:

1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered.

2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty.

3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.

If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:

• Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
• When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
• A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
• The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.

The net effect of which is:

1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered.

2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty.

3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.