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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:11:00 -
[1441] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game?
Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners.
These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4413
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:37:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game? Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners. These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? But earlier you all were going on how the Siphon is the perfect griefer tool for Goons and CFC. Now suddenly it is the perfect tool for hi sec players.
Did CCP make an update on the Siphon I missed? Please give us a link to this announcement. Thanks in advance. GÖÑ . |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1566
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 00:50:00 -
[1443] - Quote
No, you're just being painfully obtuse and disingenuous, as usual. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
475
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 01:09:00 -
[1444] - Quote
I must have also missed how moon mining is low secs main income source and how any loss of it will kill a low sec alliance.... |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
643
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:11:00 -
[1445] - Quote
I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great. |
NinjaTurtle
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
46
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 02:26:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great.
Yeah basically this. There's really no reason that large alliances should be able to hold the most valuable moons 3-4-5 or more regions away with only the threat of overwhelming retaliation keeping them from being screwed with.
The stats of the griefing mechanic just need to be a little bit better than what's been presented here. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4414
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 03:56:00 -
[1447] - Quote
I will say I am not sold on the 10% destroyed in the process of siphoning. I was wondering what are everyone's thoughts if nothing was destroyed in the process? . |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4414
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 03:57:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great. Shhhhh. Don't tarnish this thread with facts. . |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5039
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 07:31:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game? Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners. These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? it's all for the sake of progodlegend's dream
an eve where the goons' 0.0 dream is over There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1586
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 07:40:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players. If by "risk and consequence" you mean having a trial alt per POS and clocking in on them once an hour, then sure. |
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1245
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 09:01:00 -
[1451] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I will say I am not sold on the 10% destroyed in the process of siphoning. I was wondering what are everyone's thoughts if nothing was destroyed in the process? Why not |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 11:00:00 -
[1452] - Quote
NinjaTurtle wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I think if you read between the lines of this expansion CCP are saying there needs to be some risk and consequence to having vast empires controlled by relatively few players.
The modules, especially this one are easily defensible against by small alliances that have many members in a small area. The ones that will hurt will be the big alliances that have relatively few to no members in the areas these are deployed.
CFC can go and spam these all over New Eden but if they spam them against the little guys I think they'll find those little guys quick to remove them while if we spam them against CFC given all its space, they'll be much slower to find and remove them.
I think this is great. Yeah basically this. There's really no reason that large alliances should be able to hold the most valuable moons 3-4-5 or more regions away with only the threat of overwhelming retaliation keeping them from being screwed with. The stats of the griefing mechanic just need to be a little bit better than what's been presented here. Curious, what do you mean by "griefing mechanic"? If you mean simply syphoning and disposing of goo then I hope you don't fly anything other than T1 ships. The implications of simple griefing are pretty vast and I for 1 don't want to be paying 200 or 300 mil for my T2 cruisers.
Do you not think there would be retaliation if people were to start placing syphon's on R64's in nul ?? And I wouldn't say 26,000+ players is a small number to be spread over 3, 4 or 5 regions.
If you really think retaliation only a THREAT go take their moons, if it is really only a threat you should not meet with resistance. Don't be upset when a fleet of 200 or 300 turn up to defend the moon will you. If you have spent any time in SOV nul at all, you know the threat is very real. A fleet of 20 can become 100 and an alliance of 2500 can become a coalition 30,000 with 1 ping.
** I too believe large entities should not be able to control the majority of resources but reality is, that's the way it works. In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him. In the case of moon mining it is going to take a lot more than syphon's to change this balance of power. All syphon's will succeed in doing is pushing prices up for everything related to moon goo. (exactly as CCP wants it)
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Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
403
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 17:10:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him.
You could be smaller and smarter but in reality the smarter people are either also quite big or are content with their status in game. They certainly aren't whining about how it isn't fair they're small. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 06:45:00 -
[1454] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him.
You could be smaller and smarter but in reality the smarter people are either also quite big or are content with their status in game. They certainly aren't whining about how it isn't fair they're small. Do you honestly think the few "small" alliances with R64's make up around 80% of holdings? I think you will find they possibly make up 20% with a big push towards being over generous with % and have a lot more to lose and are at much higher risk of losing it than the mega corps who make up the other 80% of R64 holdings. And to be fair, how do you know they aren't "whining " as you put it, about the way syphon's are being implemented?
Saying you need to be big to be considered smart or content with their place in the game is not entirely correct.
Anybody who has moon mining operations and says they are 'content' right now is either a fool or have not bothered to look at the implications of syphon's. I include the big moon goo holders in this because right now every moon is at risk , although some (smaller groups) more than others. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
651
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 11:03:00 -
[1455] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:In eve as in RL the big guy gets to keep the ball, until someone bigger comes along to take it from him.
You could be smaller and smarter but in reality the smarter people are either also quite big or are content with their status in game. They certainly aren't whining about how it isn't fair they're small. Current day alliances are built on the whines of the past or do you think the mechanics have always been the way they are now. I'm not whining, I'm winning. |
Miner Hottie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 11:23:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Miner Hottie wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out "CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!" But according to you and your people, all the money is made in high sec off those evil mission runners. What changed all of the sudden where low sec was the source for all the income in the game? Actually most goons and other sensible nullsec dwellers complain about the risk/reward balance of hi-sec, especially incursion runners and L4 mission runners. These siphons seem to increase this inbalance. But, hey you are a one of these "grr goons, moons are passive income" meme spewers who is so skilled at Eve that he outsources living in his space, so what do you care or know? But earlier you all were going on how the Siphon is the perfect griefer tool for Goons and CFC. Now suddenly it is the perfect tool for hi sec players. Did CCP make an update on the Siphon I missed? Please give us a link to this announcement. Thanks in advance. GÖÑ
I am sorry when did I say hisec pubbies would use this? When did I link mission and incursion runners with griefing nulsec moon mining? Oh, yeah I didn't. I did repeat that goons will use this to grief people because it is OP, which has been their repeated concern with these devices and mine. But seeing as the cognitive dissonance is strong in you i doubt you will read or respond to this. I wont hold you up, your leet caravan of courage is off to fight Solar Fleet, don't worry the renters will keep the home fires burning in your AFK passive income empire. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1348
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 13:22:00 -
[1457] - Quote
Some good changes to siphons on SISI now. Effectively a price increase for those that want to use them in large amounts to destroy or greatly inhibit supply.
They are bigger now though still tiny. However, after seeing the requirements we are quite pleased.
Some dev deserves a big sloppy kiss.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1590
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 14:01:00 -
[1458] - Quote
:devswarm: Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 15:59:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Malcanis Law.
In order to defend against siphons I create an overview that shows only siphons on the cyno alt that I must have at the pos in order to service it. Any time anything appears in that overview it is a siphon and I destroy it with two clicks using a POS gun.
It's breathtakingly tedious game play, possibly the worst I have ever seen in a game, especially as you have to do it 23.5/7.
However it's also so amazingly simple and lacking in skill, or really any thought whatsoever, that it is the ideal candidate for botting.
You think that the empires that were renowned for their legions of bot ratters and moon goo duping will not be able to figure this out? They can afford to dedicate an alt to a pos (train another alt on the account and periodically sell the character so the net cost is pretty much zero.) Isbox so one guy can afk preside simultaneously over a dozen or more pos per computer with no effort whatsoever.
It's two button clicks and completely passive watching of the overview. CCP apparently can't reliably detect mining or ratting bots operating actively all day every day, they're not going to find a bot that clicks twice only when someone drops a siphon maybe a couple of times/month after the initial rush.
So who will be hurt? Small groups, time zone limited groups, younger players, players that play by CCP's rules, players with real lives who don't want to be beholden 23.5/7. Those are the people that siphons will hurt because they don't cheat, they don't have armies of alts and they don't want to be online outside of their designated play time.
Seriously, someone on the CSM needs to make it their job to demand to know in what way a new feature is fun whenever they are told about one. Endlessly repeating this question might, just might, have resulted in more thought being given to the actual game play of things like PI, Captain's closet and POS siphons. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4417
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 23:27:00 -
[1460] - Quote
Confirming that all cyno alts have anchoring level 5 trained. . |
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4417
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 02:03:00 -
[1461] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Some good changes to siphons on SISI now. Effectively a price increase for those that want to use them in large amounts to destroy or greatly inhibit supply.
They are bigger now though still tiny. However, after seeing the requirements we are quite pleased.
Some dev deserves a big sloppy kiss.
What was the materials needed before the increase?
And who is 'we'? . |
Opaque Intent
Setenta Corp AL3XAND3R.
25
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 04:30:00 -
[1462] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: And who is 'we'?
Oh, I think you know who 'we' is. |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 06:26:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Confirming that all cyno alts have anchoring level 5 trained. Confirming that the cost of Anchoring (75,000 isk) and Starbase Defense Management (1,000,000 isk) are within the budget of entities that do moon mining. And day old noobs that have complete d the tutorial missions.
Also confirming the existence of regular supply runs to mining/reaction POS that can carry skill books with them. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
508
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 06:59:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Meh, pushing the price and volume up, you may as well not bother releasing it at all. Consider that all it takes to kill the thing is a single character taking control of a single pos gun. Its just not worth it to use these if you push the break even point back significantly.
Welp, my compliments to the goons and their CSM advocate(s). This one's dead on arrival. |
Sir Prometeus
Shimai of New Eden
21
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 12:03:00 -
[1465] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Meh, pushing the price and volume up, you may as well not bother releasing it at all. Consider that all it takes to kill the thing is a single character taking control of a single pos gun. Its just not worth it to use these if you push the break even point back significantly.
Welp, my compliments to the goons and their CSM advocate(s). This one's dead on arrival.
The rest of us still want to know about these "changes" |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
615
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 14:43:00 -
[1466] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Meh, pushing the price and volume up, you may as well not bother releasing it at all. Consider that all it takes to kill the thing is a single character taking control of a single pos gun. Its just not worth it to use these if you push the break even point back significantly.
Welp, my compliments to the goons and their CSM advocate(s). This one's dead on arrival.
I'm neither a goon nor CSM advocate. I'm the "mythological" small POS owner you referred to a few posts back. If your aim is to weaken the power bloc alliances you were not going to accomplish this by obliterating the smaller competition, which is essentially what this grief tool would have done. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1594
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:15:00 -
[1467] - Quote
The whole idea was dead on arrival when it wasn't about fleet combat and timers. All this "nerf" does is change its pointlessness from malignant to benign (or less malignant really).
If you had to roll up, defang the pos, anchor and guard the siphon(s) while they onlined, and then come back the next day to haul away all the target PoS mod's moon, reaction, or alchemy goo, then you'd have a feature that generates actual fun conflict and content.
This structure spam and grind bullshit was dead before it started, all you can do with this framework is make it more or less awful. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4419
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:36:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:The whole idea was dead on arrival when it wasn't about fleet combat and timers. All this "nerf" does is change its pointlessness from malignant to benign (or less malignant really).
If you had to roll up, defang the pos, anchor and guard the siphon(s) while they onlined, and then come back the next day to haul away all the target PoS mod's moon, reaction, or alchemy goo, then you'd have a feature that generates actual fun conflict and content.
This structure spam and grind bullshit was dead before it started, all you can do with this framework is make it more or less awful. You are lying. . |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1595
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 15:52:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:You are lying.
Well I believe every word I said. I may be mistaken, but that's an important distinction.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1357
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 16:24:00 -
[1470] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:This one's dead on arrival.
I'm glad we could come to an agreement.
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