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Brannor McThife
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:32:00 -
[1]
Since joining EvE several months back, I have slowly started to understand just how much ISK there is in the EvE universe. One of the choking moments was today, when I saw a Nighthawk BPO get sold for 45 BILLION ISK.
So, where does this money come from?
Well, the primary sources of ISK are, to the best of my knowledge, Mission Rewards/bonuses, and rat bounties. Yes, you could generate money if you sold your ore/minerals directly to NPC corps, but nobody does that.
So...in effect, billions and billions of ISK have been, and are being generated from nothingness. Is this not a problem?
Once apon a time, L4 missions gave out 2-3 times as much ISK as they do now, so people farmed them. People still do, but they're nowhere near as lucrative. So people rat and do complexes in 0.0. This can now easily match and surpass the ISK rewards (read: creation) of mission running.
What ISK sinks are there really? POS equipment? T1 BPOs? Ammo bought from NPCs?
Question is... is there perhaps...too much ISK in EvE? Too much ISK is what drives those T2 prices up, because someone out there WILL have the ISK to pay close on 1000% markup. I would think that CCP are trying to slow down the rate of ISK creation (creation = money from 'nothing') by reducing rat bounties, but are there enough sinks to suck the money out as well, and bring prices down - because when there isn't ISK available to buy stuff at excessively high prices, then the seller will have to drop his price or go out of business.
No, this is not a knock at the T2 market...rather a concern that EvE could become flooded with ISK. Maybe reduce all bounties (0.0 - 1.0) and improve item drops, thereby reducing the rate at which ISK enters the world, yet increase monetary circulation. This would, in a weird way, change the value of the ISK.
*shrug*
-G Dulce bellum inexpertis... |
Kashkavien
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:37:00 -
[2]
Nope
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:38:00 -
[3]
Inflation hasn't gotten too bad yet. There are lots of ISK sinks. The devs have said that it isn't a problem ATM, or they would fix it. -- Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. The Tachikomas won't stop tossing things at me!!!!11!!oneeleventy -Ductoris
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:41:00 -
[4]
No, what drives T2 prices is limited production and a severely nerfed production system.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Brannor McThife
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:44:00 -
[5]
Another thought...
All these bounties... they're paid by Concorde yes? Who funds Concorde? Do all 4 empires? Is that why you don't get bounties for killing ships of empire factions, because Concorde has to maintain a neutral stance?
I think it's time for a recession... Concorde is generating more digital money than it has Morphite to back it up with.
Devalue the ISK I say!
-G Dulce bellum inexpertis... |
x racer
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:44:00 -
[6]
I think what your asking here is the overall effect of inflation in eve.
Not really sure though cuz your post comes off as a bit of a whine about the people that have played well, and hard, for a long time to accumulate a fat wallet.
Though theres several sentences in the post that end in a question mark, they seem rhetorical. Can you please rephrase your rant in the form of a question?
My personal opinion is that inflation in eve is very well managed. Also, most people lack basic knowledge of the laisse-faire style of the eve economy as its not a model that is actually found anywhere in the real world.
thanks, I look forward to replying to an actual question x
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Khajit Smitty
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Maya Rkell No, what drives T2 prices is limited production and a severely nerfed production system.
And the fact that people are willing to pay those prices !!
Proudly South African and Recruiting !! |
Khajit Smitty
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Brannor McThife
Devalue the ISK I say!
-G
Methinks you should go hide now !
Proudly South African and Recruiting !! |
Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:53:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 06/02/2006 13:57:21 There are a lot of isk sinks. E.g. ship losses, ammunition, market taxes and fees, pos fuel ...
a hac loss with fitting about 200 mil now a t2 fitted bs loss at least 90 mil ( fitting + insurance for the new ship ) an elite frig with t2 fitting 15-20 mil killed indis with expensive freight, covetors with strip-miners-2 ...
so many billions isk destroyed every day. edit: Check some killboards. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.' |
Syrec
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Maya Rkell No, what drives T2 prices is limited production and a severely nerfed production system.
\
Correct. T2 prices are because CCP releases a very very small amount of BPOs that random people win at chance to become the richest people in EVE without any skill at all, and then many of the very few BPO owners cartel it up and raise prices through the roof.
People arent willing to pay, they dont want to. They HAVE to because of limited BPO. T2 isnt a free and open market. It's a severely limited market by CCP because of BPO numbers.
MAny more BPOs = prices would go way down, and that alone PROVES that these t2 prices aren't the willing price. If they were then more BPOs would = prices staying the same.
Too bad so sad. release more BPOs! down with the cartels!!!! revoltuion! revolution!!!!!!
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2006.02.06 13:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Snake Jankins Edited by: Snake Jankins on 06/02/2006 13:57:21 There are a lot of isk sinks. E.g. ship losses, ammunition, market taxes and fees, pos fuel ...
a hac loss with fitting about 200 mil now a t2 fitted bs loss at least 90 mil ( fitting + insurance for the new ship ) an elite frig with t2 fitting 15-20 mil killed indis with expensive freight, covetors with strip-miners-2 ...
so many billions isk destroyed every day. edit: Check some killboards.
wts clue. ship destruction is a huge isk generator.
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Khajit Smitty
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Posted - 2006.02.06 14:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Snake Jankins Edited by: Snake Jankins on 06/02/2006 13:57:21 There are a lot of isk sinks. E.g. ship losses, ammunition, market taxes and fees, pos fuel ...
a hac loss with fitting about 200 mil now a t2 fitted bs loss at least 90 mil ( fitting + insurance for the new ship ) an elite frig with t2 fitting 15-20 mil killed indis with expensive freight, covetors with strip-miners-2 ...
so many billions isk destroyed every day. edit: Check some killboards.
Erm anything T2 aint an ISK sink as profits from its sale go to the player, and at present those profits can be up 300% of its production value.
Insurance contracts,buying from NPC's etc are ISK sinks.
I dont feel that there is any problem with the ISK value at the moment, just recently the spawn rates stopped for asteroids the direct result is trit jumped from 1.2+- to 1.8+- per unit (pretty sure CCP did this intentioally to create market inflation). Also the new ships Titans/Motherships cost billions to construct and fly.
Proudly South African and Recruiting !! |
Khajit Smitty
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Posted - 2006.02.06 14:13:00 -
[13]
The T2 market is what needs attention and thankfully Oveur has noticed this !
- oh and i think Eris funds Concord
Proudly South African and Recruiting !! |
Sirilonwe
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Posted - 2006.02.06 14:23:00 -
[14]
Buying from NPC's isn't an ISK sink. You trade an item for another. If you resell this item, you get your money back. Buying a HAC isn't a ISK sink. It's a money transfer. It maybe a sink for you, but the overall ingame money doesn't change at all.
Known sinks: - implant destruction upon pod explosion - clones - insurance - ship destruction (modules aren't insured) ____________________________________ Free ISP users, read this if you have connections problems |
Pytria Le'Danness
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Posted - 2006.02.06 14:24:00 -
[15]
There is also a hidden ISK sink: people who retire their characters, get banned and similar. The wealth these people have is lost. Also, since many more people join the game every day the market keeps expanding - as does the supply to fill the market. How this works out in the end I do not want to analyze, fact is that except for the T2 prices gear sold at about a constant price. The better loot drops compared with pre-RMR might play a role here as well - in the long run I see the prices for named gear drop unless the growing demand makes up for it.
Overall, things seem to be pretty well, except the T2 market which is way overpriced (supply and demand I assume).
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2006.02.06 14:24:00 -
[16]
macrominers mine they build t1 modules wich people with t2 bpo's buy to refine and build t2 stuff, the isk macromienrs make with this they sell on ebay wich people buy to buy t2 bpo's
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haniblecter
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Posted - 2006.02.06 14:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: haniblecter on 06/02/2006 14:39:20 Ive played 6 months now and hte price of tier 1 adn 2 BS's has been flat.
In fact, I dont have to post anything. EVE gives you all the tools you need to check inflation with the excellent graphs that come wiht each and every Mod on the market.
Skillbooks have become a massive ISK sink now. The capitol ship, carrier, dread, and all the capitol mods skill books cost hundreds of millions. Me thinks 50-100 billion has been dropped otu of circulation because of these and hte BPO's for the ships. Dont forget about market/broker costs, that's MASSIVE ISK sink.
I have complete trust in CCP that everything is working out perfectly. This economy is the most solid I've seen.
On a side note, the worst run economy is Anarchy Online. I left the shard (they have only one, much like EVE) the richest man, easily. I came back 1.5 years later to find that the 20mill I saved was something a newb got as pity money. You needed billions to be able to do anything.
Contrary to EVE, where prices have appaerntly stayed the same since launch.
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Sancho Matar
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Posted - 2006.02.06 14:56:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sancho Matar on 06/02/2006 14:57:18
Originally by: Sirilonwe Buying from NPC's isn't an ISK sink.
Yes it is. Buying from NPC is the main Isk sink i think (skill, bpo ....)
Originally by: Sirilonwe
Buying a HAC isn't a ISK sink. It's a money transfer.
True as HAC can only be build and sell by PC
Originally by: Sirilonwe
It maybe a sink for you, but the overall ingame money doesn't change at all.
Very true, If u understand this i dont know why u state ur first sentence :P
Originally by: Sirilonwe
Known sinks: - implant destruction upon pod explosion
Wheen an implant is destroy no money go with it out of game so it's nothing more than an implant sink.
Originally by: Sirilonwe
- clones
True
Originally by: Sirilonwe
- insurance
Yes if the insurance run over otherwise it's an isk generator.
Originally by: Sirilonwe
- ship destruction (modules aren't insured)
No, same logic as implant.
All of this is if we agree about the definition of an Isk Sink :
"Something that decreasing the total ammount of isk in game"
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Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2006.02.06 15:11:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 06/02/2006 15:14:14
Originally by: Keta Min wts clue. ship destruction is a huge isk generator.
Ok, you're right, it's selling a ship to a npc buyer. (insurance contract costs on the other side are an isk sink) ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.' |
Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2006.02.06 15:14:00 -
[20]
Yes, it's starting to become a problem. Some people have so much ISK that it is literally impossible to hurt them - they gain so much ISK for doing nothing from their investments that they can't match the gain of ISK with their own stupidity in losing ships. That should never happen.
But it will always happen in a world which has NPCs fueling the ISK collection and removal. CCP are the only ones who can affect it, because they control the ISK inputs and sinks. But where do they draw the line? Too many ISK sinks and you keep the mega-hardcore in line but leave those who don't grind 23/7 destitute. Too little and the mega-hardcore because super rich (as they are now - and don't you dare say 45bil is not super-rich).
My suggestion - ISK tax. The more ISK you own, the greater the tax, starting when you reach 500mil ISK (so as not to screw over the newbs). It can be avoided, true, by spreading ISK across multiple alts, but it's a start... ___
The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
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Cabadrin
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Posted - 2006.02.06 15:15:00 -
[21]
The biggest isk sinks are the Outposts, which require billions of isk to build and don;t generate much isk on their own. Following those would be the BPOs for capital ships and the ships themselves, especially motherships and titans. All of these things aren;t just cool, they're also huge isk sinks for alliances. _______________________________________________
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Slink Grinsdikild
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Posted - 2006.02.06 15:20:00 -
[22]
What worries me is the huge gap in ISK gain from one proffession to another. L4 missions are my main gripe and the fact that you can run missions in lowsec without ever worrying about pirates.. and CCP are moving all agent missions to deadspace in Kali.
I love piracy and PvP in general but unless you're a gate camping lamer then there isn't any money to be made, only ISK I made this week was 2 player bounties I collected and that didn't amount to much. .___. {O,o} /)__) -"-"- O RLY? YA RLY! - Imaran
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DazWozUK
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Posted - 2006.02.06 15:36:00 -
[23]
I dont believe there is too much ISK in eve. I have been playing for 2.5yrs now and the most i have reached is 1billion isk. But the things that I havn't got and would like such as a freighter, navy issue raven, destroyer, pos all cost billions of isk. There was a time when 1 million isk seemed unreachable to me, now I can earn that from popping 1 npc. I think the market is balanced just fine, yes there is a lot of isk out there but the cost of equipment as you level up reflects this.
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Alexis DeTocqueville
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Posted - 2006.02.06 15:52:00 -
[24]
An increase in money without an equivalent increase in the amount of products/resources/etc. is the textbook definition of inflation.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2006.02.06 16:01:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 06/02/2006 16:05:16
Originally by: Syrec
Originally by: Maya Rkell No, what drives T2 prices is limited production and a severely nerfed production system.
\
Correct. T2 prices are because CCP releases a very very small amount of BPOs that random people win at chance to become the richest people in EVE without any skill at all, and then many of the very few BPO owners cartel it up and raise prices through the roof.
People arent willing to pay, they dont want to. They HAVE to because of limited BPO. T2 isnt a free and open market. It's a severely limited market by CCP because of BPO numbers.
MAny more BPOs = prices would go way down, and that alone PROVES that these t2 prices aren't the willing price. If they were then more BPOs would = prices staying the same.
Too bad so sad. release more BPOs! down with the cartels!!!! revoltuion! revolution!!!!!!
While you're at it give everyone unlimited minerals too.
Originally by: Nero Scuro Yes, it's starting to become a problem. Some people have so much ISK that it is literally impossible to hurt them - they gain so much ISK for doing nothing from their investments that they can't match the gain of ISK with their own stupidity in losing ships. That should never happen.
Them knowing their enemy has equally deep coffers it will still hurt them knowing they lose their buffer, everything is relative. If you by hurt them mean making them go broke in a month and leaving the game then you may need to seek council...
Remind me about The Maze.
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
Gerbil Intaki
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Posted - 2006.02.06 16:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nero Scuro My suggestion - ISK tax. The more ISK you own, the greater the tax, starting when you reach 500mil ISK (so as not to screw over the newbs). It can be avoided, true, by spreading ISK across multiple alts, but it's a start...
Sounds like a good idea alternative in order to avoid expliotation would be to total the amounts on one account rather than character or have it as a corporate tax. Another alternative is to charge a player to player ISK transfer tax you get a limit on how much you can send in 24 hours anything over that gets increasing taxed.
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Hast
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Posted - 2006.02.06 16:24:00 -
[27]
WTS: T2 ISK TREE
Give miners a log off timer
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.02.06 16:25:00 -
[28]
you forgot a major ISK creator: insurance
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy |
Donis Ardis
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Posted - 2006.02.06 16:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kashkavien Nope
You are quite correct. :)
In response to the OP, you may see big isk deals go down,etc but what you dont know, is if thats an individual, corporation or alliance doing the buying. If you have a dedicated alliance with a goal or aim then raising isk is not a problem. With the HUGE isk sinks that are in the game right now, 45bill is only a tiny amount of isk to what a dedicated alliance can achieve.
When looking at these tasks as an individual, its very easy to be overwhelmed, but break it down to a focused group of individuals then anything is achievable.
Speculating on market is a skill in itself, and quite a substancial ammount of isk can be made just by buying and selling. Quite often you make more on the market by doing this, than if you had the Tech2 BPO yourself.
Taxing a characters wallet, just for the sake of being an isk sink is a silly idea.
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F4ze
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Posted - 2006.02.06 16:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Brannor McThife ....One of the choking moments was today, when I saw a Nighthawk BPO get sold for 45 BILLION ISK.
45 Billion ???
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