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Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
60
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 05:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Can anybody give me an explanation on why ships travel faster than light missiles? I can see how frigates can travel faster than cruise missiles or torpedos, but faster than (anti-frigate) light missiles or rockets?
I just had a Ares orbit my Caracal at 20k and was going 7k m/s. My Caracal has a 55km range with CN light missiles and is unable to touch the Ares with its missiles. It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.
So. Any gameplay/lore reason why anti-frigate/frigate-based missiles are so slow? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
593
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 08:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
191
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 10:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
As I recall, Lights from a Cara' Assault launchers are capable of doing something of the order of 11km/s (or did the Cara lose its velocity bonus in Tiericide? I have a nagging suspicion that I recall something about it but I haven't flown one for a long while). That sort of speed is really difficult to achieve in frigates, and really, really hard to maintain in an orbit around a Cara (particularly one which is manoeuvring deliberately to counter a frigate's orbit. Even at 7km/s the simple orbit can be broken (forcing significant speed changes and a simultaneous volley of everything in the air at the time... which hurts a lot) and the manually piloted orbit requires very significant pilot skill. I would also summise that the Ares in this situation was not alone and was supported by gang boosts.
The Cara (and to an even greater degree, the Cerb) does make a fantastic 'frig umberella' - but it isn't an omnipotent hard-counter. |
Chessur
Strontless Mistakes Fatal Ascension
189
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 10:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
With out any missile projection implants, or hydraulic bay thrusters, light missiles only travel around 6.5 /6.7 KS. Because missile sin eve always need to curve around, and strike the back of a fast moving ship- many linked, snaked, and nanod frigs can out run them, unless you have built in ship velocity bonuses, implants or thrusters. |
Dato Koppla
Perkone Caldari State
332
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 10:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
An all V Caracal with faction light missiles make them travel 8.43km/s which should be enough to catch most frigs but as mentioned because of the nature of how EvE missiles work, they tend to fall short if the enemy is going around the speed the Ares you were fighting was going, however not many ships go that fast and they often need to be linked/snaked up the wahzoo to outspeed light missiles. |
Layla Firoue
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 10:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line
Theoretical yes, practical, no.
For a mach 2.5+ capable fighter to outrun a AIM 9 it has to travel close to mach 2.5 to begin with to be able to outrun the missile since the missile accelerates way faster than the fighter. If the fighter is traveling slower he can not out run the missile even if he hits his afterburner, since it would take him too long to gain sufficient speed, which would be a bad idea to begin with since it makes him just a more yummy target. There might be a circumstantial scenario where the missile is fired from far enough and the fighter is already traveling fast enough to keep distance long enough for the missile to run out of fuel. Hence why a seemingly puny speed of mach 2.5 is sufficient for a short range missile to bring down its targets. Since during almost all of your engagements your and your target will be flying at a much slower speed.
"In theory I can defecate on the ceiling and make my poop stick, in practice its not that easy and a rather unpractical thing to do"! |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1617
|
Posted - 2013.11.02 12:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Its mostly because links. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
To mare
Advanced Technology
271
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 11:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote: It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.
maybe the sidewinder user pilot had bad skills |
Shaotuk
Sin City Enterprises
26
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 17:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line
Umm, no there aren't.
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Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
743
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 17:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line
How many can orbit the launching plane while maintaining enough speed to outrun it? |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
233
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 17:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:Can anybody give me an explanation on why ships travel faster than light missiles? I can see how frigates can travel faster than cruise missiles or torpedos, but faster than (anti-frigate) light missiles or rockets?
I just had a Ares orbit my Caracal at 20k and was going 7k m/s. My Caracal has a 55km range with CN light missiles and is unable to touch the Ares with its missiles. It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.
So. Any gameplay/lore reason why anti-frigate/frigate-based missiles are so slow?
Lesson learned don't shoot an interceptor that's orbiting you at 7 km a second.... Your missiles should have been going 8437 but I'm not sure with the inty orbiting you they would get him or not.
An interceptor is a "frigate" as in it's a frigate hull but that's about it. If he's going at that speed it probably means he has links. I don't even think Warrior II's would have caught him. |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
227
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 18:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:Can anybody give me an explanation on why ships travel faster than light missiles? I can see how frigates can travel faster than cruise missiles or torpedos, but faster than (anti-frigate) light missiles or rockets?
I just had a Ares orbit my Caracal at 20k and was going 7k m/s. My Caracal has a 55km range with CN light missiles and is unable to touch the Ares with its missiles. It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.
So. Any gameplay/lore reason why anti-frigate/frigate-based missiles are so slow? Lesson learned don't shoot an interceptor that's orbiting you at 7 km a second.... Your missiles should have been going 8437 but I'm not sure with the inty orbiting you they would get him or not. An interceptor is a "frigate" as in it's a frigate hull but that's about it. If he's going at that speed it probably means he has links. I don't even think Warrior II's would have caught him.
You can make warriors fast enough to catch him, but they can't really hurt them. I once made a Vexor with range and speed mods for anti interceptor work, and iirc, my warriors went 11kish. They would either overshoot the target, or catch up and get just one shot off - doing almost no damage. It wasn't very effective against interceptors. Fly Valks with it and you could surprise some nano cruisers with it though.
This was years ago - perhaps they have fixed the drone WMD issue, but I don't think so.
I don't know the answer to the missile question - but I have seen linked condors outrun light missiles too, FYI. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
269
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 19:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
This has been around for awhile. High Grade Snakes and velocity related modules are enough to make light missiles useless. In fact fleets of Railgun-Raptors or Taranis or Light Missile-Crows can do that ALL day as it is NOW. Some of you in factional warfare have been engaged by fleets I have lead using said lamest. Except those fleets were recieving bonuses from a Loki with warfare links (6 - 7,000msec).
ONLY small long range guns can hit them (Artillery, Railguns and Beam Lasers) properly flown. Character For Sale | https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3820793#post3820793 |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
130
|
Posted - 2013.11.03 20:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Now even if your missiles could hit their explosion velocity would not have been even remotely high enough to put down any decent damage on him. This missile issue is beginning to warrant a csm post. I'm of the opinion that the missile algorithm wad designed during a period when people were ratting enemy ships with extremely poor speeds and large signatures. in less words missiles are not good in pvp because they seem to not even be designed for it Click here for LP store weapon cost rebalancing |
To mare
Advanced Technology
271
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 07:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line How many can orbit the launching plane while maintaining enough speed to outrun it?
at 20k pretty much all of them |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 09:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Layla Firoue wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line Theoretical yes, practical, no. For a mach 2.5+ capable fighter to outrun a AIM 9 it has to travel close to mach 2.5 to begin with to be able to outrun the missile since the missile accelerates way faster than the fighter. If the fighter is traveling slower he can not out run the missile even if he hits his afterburner, since it would take him too long to gain sufficient speed, which would be a bad idea to begin with since it makes him just a more yummy target. There might be a circumstantial scenario where the missile is fired from far enough and the fighter is already traveling fast enough to keep distance long enough for the missile to run out of fuel. Hence why a seemingly puny speed of mach 2.5 is sufficient for a short range missile to bring down its targets. Since during almost all of your engagements your and your target will be flying at a much slower speed. "In theory I can defecate on the ceiling and make my poop stick, in practice its not that easy and a rather unpractical thing to do"!
The basica defenseive move agisnt missiles is exaclty to outrun them,. You do nto need ot be faster.. just fast enough that the total range the missile needs to travel extends too much .
That is very common scenario, because if the fighter is traveling at mach 1.5 the effective range of the missile is reduced by 40%. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 09:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Now even if your missiles could hit their explosion velocity would not have been even remotely high enough to put down any decent damage on him. This missile issue is beginning to warrant a csm post. I'm of the opinion that the missile algorithm wad designed during a period when people were ratting enemy ships with extremely poor speeds and large signatures. in less words missiles are not good in pvp because they seem to not even be designed for it
Nope.. in fact the forumula was made when battleships could go 12 km/s with easy. When they nerfed the speed of ships, missiles simply became overpowered and their explosion velocity was nerfed.
Basically, missiles will always do very little damage to ships of sam,e size class that are with an AB and some speed modules. Same against ships with MWD signature bonuses. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 09:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:This has been around for awhile. High Grade Snakes and velocity related modules are enough to make light missiles useless. In fact fleets of Railgun-Raptors or Taranis or Light Missile-Crows can do that ALL day as it is NOW. Some of you in factional warfare have been engaged by fleets I have lead using said lamest. Except those fleets were recieving bonuses from a Loki with warfare links (6 - 7,000msec).
ONLY small long range guns can hit them (Artillery, Railguns and Beam Lasers) properly flown.
Only interceptors can avoid damage so easily due to MWD signature bonus. If the ship is faster than the missile, the missile still can hit it, but you need to get closer so the shortest path will not be to FOLLOW the target.
And thta is NOT a limitation of missiles. Show me a turret that can hit those interceptors at that range and orbiting speed.... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
434
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 09:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
The right turret at the right range could do it. Sentries definitely can. |
seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
242
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 10:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Layla Firoue wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line Theoretical yes, practical, no. For a mach 2.5+ capable fighter to outrun a AIM 9 it has to travel close to mach 2.5 to begin with to be able to outrun the missile since the missile accelerates way faster than the fighter. If the fighter is traveling slower he can not out run the missile even if he hits his afterburner, since it would take him too long to gain sufficient speed, which would be a bad idea to begin with since it makes him just a more yummy target. There might be a circumstantial scenario where the missile is fired from far enough and the fighter is already traveling fast enough to keep distance long enough for the missile to run out of fuel. Hence why a seemingly puny speed of mach 2.5 is sufficient for a short range missile to bring down its targets. Since during almost all of your engagements your and your target will be flying at a much slower speed. "In theory I can defecate on the ceiling and make my poop stick, in practice its not that easy and a rather unpractical thing to do"!
http://gizmodo.com/5511236/the-thrill-of-flying-the-sr+71-blackbird
TL:DR; First few paragraphs, out ran potential Mach 5 missiles.
The point is they're scout/interceptors, at that range/speed the atron shouldnt have been doing damage enough to worry about and if you got caught in the middle of a belt or somewhere you couldn't get out of that's OP's lack of awareness in regards to where he was. |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 10:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:The right turret at the right range could do it. Sentries definitely can.
That said, even if the missile could "hit" it, it'd do almost nil damage.
at the RIGHT RANGE... wich turret can hit that ship at that scenario that these thread is about? That is my question....
NONE! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
434
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 12:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:The right turret at the right range could do it. Sentries definitely can.
That said, even if the missile could "hit" it, it'd do almost nil damage. at the RIGHT RANGE... wich turret can hit that ship at that scenario that these thread is about? That is my question.... NONE!
Being as missiles are meant to counter uber-high transversal/angular ships - I'd say we have an issue there.
Ships shouldnt be immune to all weapon systems assuming reasonable sizes i.e. titan vs tristan is stupid, inty vs tricked out RLML machine of death designed to kill them.....a bit more fair a debate.
Getting under guns is as old as the hills; missiles are meant to be a danger zone to counter balance this. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
928
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 12:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hrett wrote:
You can make warriors fast enough to catch him, but they can't really hurt them. I once made a Vexor with range and speed mods for anti interceptor work, and iirc, my warriors went 11kish. They would either overshoot the target, or catch up and get just one shot off - doing almost no damage. It wasn't very effective against interceptors. Fly Valks with it and you could surprise some nano cruisers with it though.
This was years ago - perhaps they have fixed the drone WMD issue, but I don't think so.
I tested this myself recently and got basically the same result. The drones MWD to the target, then turn off their MWD and start shooting. They might get a single good hit in - or they might have such high transversal that it misses. Then realise that they're 10 km off because they stopped MWDing. So they charge after the target again and go through the same process again and again. It wasn't totally hopeless, but it certainly wasn't very good.
Re. the Caracal. CN missiles go 8.4 km/s for 63 km. If you have the skills, they will hit an orbiting linked interceptor. If you don't have good skills, or are using Precision or Fury (range issues), then they won't.
But really, skirmish links in stupidly overpowered non-shocker. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
434
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 12:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Re. the Caracal. CN missiles go 8.4 km/s for 63 km. If you have the skills, they will hit an orbiting linked interceptor. If you don't have good skills, or are using Precision or Fury (range issues), then they won't.
I know you know your missile stuff - but have you tested it?
Do the missiles "cut corners" and take the shortest route, or settle into a chase pattern that results in them not quite making it in space? Especially at a wide orbit range.
Don't want to sound like I'm suggesting you're not being truthful, I just dont know what path the missiles will take in space - being at work it's hard to test
Edit: And will those missiles actually do any damage? It's extremely irksome that precision's - the missiles designed to shoot little, fast things - aren't long enough reaching. |
Major Killz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
269
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 14:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Major Killz wrote:This has been around for awhile. High Grade Snakes and velocity related modules are enough to make light missiles useless. In fact fleets of Railgun-Raptors or Taranis or Light Missile-Crows can do that ALL day as it is NOW. Some of you in factional warfare have been engaged by fleets I have lead using said lamest. Except those fleets were recieving bonuses from a Loki with warfare links (6 - 7,000msec).
ONLY small long range guns can hit them (Artillery, Railguns and Beam Lasers) properly flown. Only interceptors can avoid damage so easily due to MWD signature bonus. If the ship is faster than the missile, the missile still can hit it, but you need to get closer so the shortest path will not be to FOLLOW the target. And thta is NOT a limitation of missiles. Show me a turret that can hit those interceptors at that range and orbiting speed....
Not sure what you're talking about? What range are you referring too? Character For Sale | https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3820793#post3820793 |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
928
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 14:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'm not sure about the exact path that the missiles take. I've never really worried about it too much because my experience indicates that, in general, with full skills and a velocity bonus, LMs will hit an orbiting interceptor, while if you don't have the velocity bonus, they won't. The middle ground of velocity bonus and intermediate skills is the uncertain area, but it's a long time since I've had intermediate skills! The 1v1, perfect orbit situation is also slightly artificial and unrepresentative of a typical small-gang skirmish, although it's a useful starting point for understanding mechanics.
AFAIK, the missiles use a straight approach mechanic - they don't attempt to predict where the target will be. So they will cut the corner when homing in on an orbiting target and follow a curved flight path towards it, with the last few km of the intercept being almost a straight chase up the tailpipe. It would be pretty easy to test by simply finding the orbit range at which the missiles don't hit an inty orbiting at x speed.
Regarding damage, well, again it depends on skills and ofc links... The efficiency at which a Cerberus whacks interceptors suggests that there isn't much of a problem in general, but having Interceptors V and links makes a huge difference. Just EFTing it with a 206 DPS Caracal:
Level V Ares (78.8 m, 4238 m/s): 72 DPS, 34.9%. Linked Ares (51.6 m, 5342 m/s): 48 DPS, 23.3% (33% less). OL linked Ares (51.6 m, 7722 m/s): 39 DPS, 18.9%.
So the links and overload almost half the damage received. Well, we knew they were powerful!
OTOH, a 325 DPS Cerb with Crash and a painter would be doing 148 DPS, 100 DPS and 80 DPS applied in the three cases above - and a Cerb definitely has the missile range to hit an orbiting inty.
I think in the other missile thread Chessur has been commenting that the sig radius link leads to a divergence in game mechanics between missiles and guns because of the different damage formula and the sig-related hard cap to missile damage, which can cause problems with missiles suddenly being unable to deal full damage to a webbed target without painter support. To me, however, this is a problem with the sig radius link being overpowered, rather than a major problem with the missile formula. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
234
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 14:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:The right turret at the right range could do it. Sentries definitely can.
That said, even if the missile could "hit" it, it'd do almost nil damage. at the RIGHT RANGE... wich turret can hit that ship at that scenario that these thread is about? That is my question.... NONE!
Before they nerfed the tracking bonus from 10% to 7.5% people were complaining that it could one shot an interceptor orbiting it at close range. I find it hard to believe that at 100 km it couldn't one shot it now.
As for if you inisist on using a turret ship I have a feeling any of the long range sniper BC could do it. At range the transversal is very low so it makes hitting things easier. Anyone has tested this? |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
227
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 14:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Hrett wrote:
You can make warriors fast enough to catch him, but they can't really hurt them. I once made a Vexor with range and speed mods for anti interceptor work, and iirc, my warriors went 11kish. They would either overshoot the target, or catch up and get just one shot off - doing almost no damage. It wasn't very effective against interceptors. Fly Valks with it and you could surprise some nano cruisers with it though.
This was years ago - perhaps they have fixed the drone WMD issue, but I don't think so.
I tested this myself recently and got basically the same result. The drones MWD to the target, then turn off their MWD and start shooting. They might get a single good hit in - or they might have such high transversal that it misses. Then realise that they're 10 km off because they stopped MWDing. So they charge after the target again and go through the same process again and again. It wasn't totally hopeless, but it certainly wasn't very good. Re. the Caracal. CN missiles go 8.4 km/s for 63 km. If you have the skills, they will hit an orbiting linked interceptor. If you don't have good skills, or are using Precision or Fury (range issues), then they won't. But really, skirmish links in stupidly overpowered non-shocker.
Talking about this now makes me wonder if throwing in a small webber drone or two might change the outcome. I know they are generally terrible - but this might be a situation where one or two might help... I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
242
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 15:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Hrett wrote:
You can make warriors fast enough to catch him, but they can't really hurt them. I once made a Vexor with range and speed mods for anti interceptor work, and iirc, my warriors went 11kish. They would either overshoot the target, or catch up and get just one shot off - doing almost no damage. It wasn't very effective against interceptors. Fly Valks with it and you could surprise some nano cruisers with it though.
This was years ago - perhaps they have fixed the drone WMD issue, but I don't think so.
I tested this myself recently and got basically the same result. The drones MWD to the target, then turn off their MWD and start shooting. They might get a single good hit in - or they might have such high transversal that it misses. Then realise that they're 10 km off because they stopped MWDing. So they charge after the target again and go through the same process again and again. It wasn't totally hopeless, but it certainly wasn't very good. Re. the Caracal. CN missiles go 8.4 km/s for 63 km. If you have the skills, they will hit an orbiting linked interceptor. If you don't have good skills, or are using Precision or Fury (range issues), then they won't. But really, skirmish links in stupidly overpowered non-shocker. Talking about this now makes me wonder if throwing in a small webber drone or two might change the outcome. I know they are generally terrible - but this might be a situation where one or two might help...
That's the point of all this though, it's based upon a specific set of circumstances, that an interceptor, with gang-links and implant set managed to get an orbit around a caracal and managed to sustain it without taking damage, this would be no different if that interceptor had of pulled a tight orbit around a battleship that would never hit it with large guns.
At one point frigates were doing 12km/s without links and implants, the issue is OP was not set up for the circumstances presented, the interceptor pilot capitalized upon that like anyone else aiming to PVP would on their strengths and weaknesses and was able to keep his caracal tackled.
Welcome to EvE |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
632
|
Posted - 2013.11.04 17:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:The right turret at the right range could do it. Sentries definitely can.
That said, even if the missile could "hit" it, it'd do almost nil damage. at the RIGHT RANGE... wich turret can hit that ship at that scenario that these thread is about? That is my question.... NONE! Being as missiles are meant to counter uber-high transversal/angular ships - I'd say we have an issue there. Ships shouldnt be immune to all weapon systems assuming reasonable sizes i.e. titan vs tristan is stupid, inty vs tricked out RLML machine of death designed to kill them.....a bit more fair a debate. Getting under guns is as old as the hills; missiles are meant to be a danger zone to counter balance this.
Why do you think missiles are meant to do that? They are surely NOT. In all eve history they have always been the least effective against fast moving fast movers.
Missiles thing is... they ignore any range issue when they are inside their max range ( well almost max range)
Missiles are there to ignore tracking, at the expense of being weak against pure base speed (Taht measn you cannot use your own ship speed to neuter enemy speed) |
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