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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Zheng'Yi Sao
DIRTY MONEY INC. The Mountain Empire
13
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:02:00 -
[151] - Quote
Appreciated.
I'm surprised people read walls of text, that was a whopper.
Let's see if you all think I am so bright when I run off and join Harry Forever.
But I won't do it on this character, would be bad for buisness. I would have to do it on another character. Which of course is not me, because I cannot claim to be myself on an alt. I think that is against the rules. So it will have to be another character who is not me, but knows me really well. Who is not me.
But I digress, carry on... |
Anomaly One
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:09:00 -
[152] - Quote
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:Appreciated. I'm surprised people read walls of text, that was a whopper. Let's see if you all think I am so bright when I run off and join Harry Forever. But I won't do it on this character, would be bad for buisness. I would have to do it on another character. Which of course is not me, because I cannot claim to be myself on an alt. I think that is against the rules. So it will have to be another character who is not me, but knows me really well. Who is not me. But I digress, carry on...
everyone will know your character because.. who the hell joins Harry Forever ?
I kid I kid
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Rhea Rankin Nolen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 22:18:00 -
[153] - Quote
Lemme drop my 2 cents in.
Back in the day I started EVE, a few years ago, I remember joining my first player corp. Things seemed great at first. I was still learning the game, and corp activities and new friends made all seem much more fun.
Soon enough it turned out all our corporation did was grind missions and mine all day. Slowly but steadily my enthusiasm about the corp and the game itself started to wane. Is this what EVE has to offer? Endless grind?
And then we got wardecced. These guys were pro at pvp by our bear standards. Our corp leadership stayed logged out of game during the dec. A few of us that were online, we were scared stupid. But we decided to fight back. Mostly failed.
But those intense days of dodging camps, cat & mouse, attempts at evening the score, is what made me stay to this day.
Like a whole new world opened up. Suddenly there was more than missions. More than grind. They were leet, we sucked. So how to get better? How to learn more? How to be a good pvp pilot?
And instead of inactive account, these questions received an answer in the months ahead.
All thanks to a wardec.
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ravill rivyll
Perkone Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:24:00 -
[154] - Quote
The pussies all around makes me quit. Not war. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
2421
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 23:30:00 -
[155] - Quote
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:Dudley Schwartz wrote:Random idea: would it be a good idea to change the war mechanics, so that PVP corps/alliances can only war dec each other? When you create a corp you choose to register your corp either as a combat corp ( actively looking for PVP ) or industrial corp.
I don't think industrialists should be immune to being attacked ( at least they can still be ganked etc ). It is unfair for genuine industrial corps who choose not to PVP and are not interested in the PVP side if eve to be subject to prolonged grief, by PVP'ers who are searching for that easy kill.
Every player should have the option to choose how they want to play the game. Some players log in and want to PVP/PVE; some choose to mine ( each to their own is a good philosophy ).
A more direct answer to your question "does war make players leave eve?" In the case of high sec industrial corps being subject to prolonged grief by PVP'ers, then yes.
What is your opinion?
So, being in this position, I can answer... I been around a couple months now. I resisted joining a corp in hi-sec as I knew it would make me a target. Eventually, I jumped in. I think I got wardec'd the following week. I had begun EvE doing all the paranoid things a pilot should do. Making bookmarks, aligning when I mine. Fitting tanks to my barges and haulers. Using alt haulers. Being in an NPC corp made most of this completely unecessary. So I sat there. Running missions, burning rocks, building stuff. Occasionally I got myself blown up . Point is, I had my little carebear themepark. It got boring real quick. Then the war came. Everthing changed. This man said it best: Khergit Deserters wrote:If you're in a newbie corp and get wardecced, you just have to be patient. The wardec will go away someday. Sure, being almost powerless against more experienced, shinier-shipped wardeccers is kind of frustrating and humiliating. But on the other hand, the challenge is really interesting. I can remember some excellent war room strategy discussions among my newb corp members. Much more interesting than discussing ship fits, L4 missions tactics, etc. In the end dealing with the wardec made the corp leadership smarter and made us tighter overall as a team. And the guys who were just in it for themselves left the corp. That was an added bonus. In the opening week a guy got podded in a rookie ship. A couple T2 barges got whacked. People griped, but they learned. An enemy diplomat offered us a payoff to end the war, we said no. War continues. Losses continue. We are figuring a way to hit back, learning our, and our enemy's cababilities. It came down to one moment for me. I was on a belt, eyes glued to local, spaming D-Scan when a war target popped into system. My heart started pounding, being aligned, I hit warp and my little barge crawled up to speed. I can still see the blinky red ship warping in on my AO just as I entered warp. All my paranoia paid off, and what a rush!!! I even got away with it a second time the same day. Though I have to say, I shouldn't have gotten away the second time. I was too slow. I said to myself it is over but they dropped the ball. No scram, no web. They either got cocky or lazy. Shame on them. War added a whole new dimension to my game play. It makes Eve what it is. If I want to burn rocks I should be at the same risk as everyone else. Bumping. Ganking. War. Creating an inherent "safe zone" would go against everything that makes Eve what it is. Being immune to a war dec would have made me quit the game. I got away that day because I was ready. I was rewarded for my game play. I continue to be rewarded for my evolving game play. Yours is a terrible idea, sir.
You just won EVE. |
Zheng'Yi Sao
DIRTY MONEY INC. The Mountain Empire
14
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Posted - 2013.11.07 00:38:00 -
[156] - Quote
SWEET!!!
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1375
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 00:47:00 -
[157] - Quote
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:SWEET!!!
Have another like on that wall of text I just got through.
It's nice to see a newbie who understands that the point of this particular MMO is not to bury your head in the sand and do your best to pretend other people don't exist. |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
175
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Posted - 2013.11.07 02:07:00 -
[158] - Quote
Political discussion post has been removed. |
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Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 02:12:00 -
[159] - Quote
Mythrandier wrote:Yes, yes you have.
Its not baseless at all. As I said in a previous post, I have seen what happens when a games company that produces a niche game tries to make the game mainstream. In fact, I've seen it happen twice to games I loved, Red Orchestra and SWG.
No, no I haven't. And yes, the accusations in your last post were baseless, because you didn't base them on anything.
I never said anything about trying to make Eve "mainstream." I have no desire to do that, and neither does CCP, from what I've seen. THAT is a straw man argument, which you should be familiar with, since you've accused me of it. I am arguing that there is room for discussing changes to the wardec system that might help new player retention. Your straw man is that I want Eve to be mainstream, which is a much easier to defeat argument. But it's not what I am saying.
You should stop being afraid of change based on the disappointments in your past gaming experiences. Fear of change is simply not healthy.
Quote: You simply chose to ignore this, as you have done with every other valid point raised.
No, no I haven't. We can keep going like this if you wish. But instead of "Yes you have" and "No I haven't" let's say "Wabbit Season!" and "Duck Season!" That would be much more fun. :)
Quote: You keep touting that CCP is a company that needs to make money, do you honestly think there is one person reading this thread who needs that pointed out to them?
Yes, yes I do. Not because they don't know it, but because some of them seem to forget how important that is to this discussion in their fervor to defend "their game".
Quote:Eve has survived as long as it has and done as well as it has because it offers something that no other MMO since the days of Ultima does, actual risk to you in game assets. You want to take that away an thus remove from EvE the one thing that makes me and many other keep logging in.
No, no I do not. Again, quote me when you proclaim what -I- want because -I- never said that.
But at least you finally stopped trying to tear me down personally in your last paragraph and are back on the topic of the thread. I agree that the death penalty in Eve is one of the elements of its success. However, saying that is the "only" reason for its success is a Complex Cause fallacy. CCP has done quite a few things right, other than maintaining Eve's risk factor, which have contributed to its success as a game. It could be argued that pushing back against elements that might sour the gaming experience for new players has also contributed to the game's success. All of those horrible "nerfs to high sec" throughout the years certainly didn't kill the game...as it's still here.
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Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 02:24:00 -
[160] - Quote
ravill rivyll wrote:The pussies all around makes me quit. Not war.
Cool. Fear of vaginas. Freud would get a kick out of that. Can I have your main's stuff? |
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Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 02:31:00 -
[161] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:My heart started pounding, being aligned, I hit warp and my little barge crawled up to speed. You just won EVE.
Now that he's won, can someone let him know that there's no such thing as passive aligned? |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
329
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 03:42:00 -
[162] - Quote
Confirming this thread has popped up every few months or so for the last 7 years, if not more.
Non-consensual pvp is one of the core aspects of the game, asking to have it changed is like asking eve to be a fantasy game, or asking to be able to grind for levels. |
Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 03:54:00 -
[163] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Confirming this thread has popped up every few months or so for the last 7 years, if not more.
Non-consensual pvp is one of the core aspects of the game, asking to have it changed is like asking eve to be a fantasy game, or asking to be able to grind for levels.
Straw man argument. OP never asks this.
And besides, non-consensual pvp has been changed many times over those 7 years. But again, you're off topic. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1377
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:00:00 -
[164] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:Cambarus wrote:Confirming this thread has popped up every few months or so for the last 7 years, if not more.
Non-consensual pvp is one of the core aspects of the game, asking to have it changed is like asking eve to be a fantasy game, or asking to be able to grind for levels. Straw man argument. OP never asks this. And besides, non-consensual pvp has been changed many times over those 7 years. But again, you're off topic.
Changed, yes. It's existence is never really in question. It's a fundamental part of the game after all, randomly having your day ruined by some guy. |
Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:08:00 -
[165] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Princess Bride wrote:Cambarus wrote:Confirming this thread has popped up every few months or so for the last 7 years, if not more.
Non-consensual pvp is one of the core aspects of the game, asking to have it changed is like asking eve to be a fantasy game, or asking to be able to grind for levels. Straw man argument. OP never asks this. And besides, non-consensual pvp has been changed many times over those 7 years. But again, you're off topic. Changed, yes. It's existence is never really in question. It's a fundamental part of the game after all, randomly having your day ruined by some guy.
I agree, 100%. OP also seems to agree with this. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2243
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:12:00 -
[166] - Quote
I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1377
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:19:00 -
[167] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote: I agree, 100%. OP also seems to agree with this.
Where he and I diverge, however, is his assertion that wardeccing as a concept is responsible for lack of player retention.
Which is simply not true. The game has plenty of reasons for low player retention, the ludicrously complicated UI being among them, and the actions of other people can be easily discounted.
One does not enter into an MMO without being aware that people are involved, large numbers of them. And large numbers of people will mean negative interaction is basically a given.
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3237
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:25:00 -
[168] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:I agree with the OP because THE GRIEFING IN THIS GAME HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. It is ridiculous that players can't undock in high-sec (NOTICE THE WORD 'HIGH") without immediately getting blown to bits by basement-dwelling sociopath teenagers with no lives who have never even held hands with a girl before. EVE is DYING and if CCP doesn't do something about it soon then this game won't even last TWO YEARS. To be honest I don't get why they don't simply ban all the griefers from the game, because the game would obviously become a much better place without them. The high-sec pvp mechanics are remnants of an OLD ERA, created by CCP employees who obviously didn't have the vision and understanding of their customer base that allowed them to hold on to their jobs. GUESS WHAT, most people are well-adjusted individuals and want to create, not destroy. The few psychos out there who can't wrap their minds around that simple fact DO NOT BELONG in this game, and much less society as a whole. We should be able to play how we want, not how others want us to. Plenty of great ideas like pvp flags have been proposed, and it goes beyond my understanding why CCP won't implement something as rational as that. There's plenty of null-sec out there for players to duel other in, for those who want to. At the very least, they could make it so that wars would have to be mutually accepted, or maybe make the attackers pay the defenders for every ship they destroy. It's common sense, people. Save EVE and say NO to wars in high-sec.
and in one long as run on sentence, DC just laid out every argument every.single.high sec poster ever posted.
DC wins EVE. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
330
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:31:00 -
[169] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:Cambarus wrote:Confirming this thread has popped up every few months or so for the last 7 years, if not more.
Non-consensual pvp is one of the core aspects of the game, asking to have it changed is like asking eve to be a fantasy game, or asking to be able to grind for levels. Straw man argument. OP never asks this. And besides, non-consensual pvp has been changed many times over those 7 years. But again, you're off topic. I'm really not, because the op is suggesting that non-consensual pvp (or at least one of its facets) be changed from something that is done frequently and easily to something that is done as a "last resort". That's not a small change, it's a big one, and a big change to one of the things that makes eve the game that it is will be frowned upon by people who actually like the game for what it is, also known as the people currently paying CCP to keep playing their game.
What it boils down to is this: Would eve be a better game if it were safer? Eve is fairly well known for filling its server with people who would gladly say no.
It's kind of like suggesting that eve should have multiple servers. It's not that the idea itself is without merit, or that there aren't people who would like to see it happen, but were it actually implemented you'd be losing one of the core aspects of the game, and in the end it would suffer for it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5102
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:54:00 -
[170] - Quote
infinitesec |
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Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 04:59:00 -
[171] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Princess Bride wrote:Cambarus wrote:Confirming this thread has popped up every few months or so for the last 7 years, if not more.
Non-consensual pvp is one of the core aspects of the game, asking to have it changed is like asking eve to be a fantasy game, or asking to be able to grind for levels. Straw man argument. OP never asks this. And besides, non-consensual pvp has been changed many times over those 7 years. But again, you're off topic. I'm really not, because the op is suggesting that non-consensual pvp (or at least one of its facets) be changed from something that is done frequently and easily to something that is done as a "last resort". That's not a small change, it's a big one, and a big change to one of the things that makes eve the game that it is will be frowned upon by people who actually like the game for what it is, also known as the people currently paying CCP to keep playing their game.
Actually, the OP seems focused two themes: 1) He asks if wardecs cause new players to leave. 2) He suggests substantially raising the cost of wardecs. The first is a valid question. The second would indeed be a big change if implemented. However, it's also been done before, and guess what, it didn't break Eve. So I think the question of whether to raise the cost again is also a valid one.
Quote: What it boils down to is this: Would eve be a better game if it were safer? Eve is fairly well known for filling its server with people who would gladly say no.
It's kind of like suggesting that eve should have multiple servers. It's not that the idea itself is without merit, or that there aren't people who would like to see it happen, but were it actually implemented you'd be losing one of the core aspects of the game, and in the end it would suffer for it.
Whether or not Eve is full of people who would gladly support your position is irrelevant because that is argumentum ad populum. What it actually boils down to is this: Would Eve be better or worse off if the cost of wardecs went up substantially again? Would that change help new player retention without causing the loss of too many butthurt bittervets? Although the OP does use words like "last resort", he does (multiple times) reaffirm the need for wardecs and suggests upping the price as a solution (multiple times) so that's really what we're talking about here.
And sorry but no, increasing the cost of wardecs is not a core aspect of the game comparable to changing to multiple servers. That's just plain ol' exaggeration. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3436
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:02:00 -
[172] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:infinitesec Can I mine there in peace without all these pesky gankers? |
Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:16:00 -
[173] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Princess Bride wrote: I agree, 100%. OP also seems to agree with this.
Where he and I diverge, however, is his assertion that wardeccing as a concept is responsible for lack of player retention. Which is simply not true. The game has plenty of reasons for low player retention, the ludicrously complicated UI being among them, and the actions of other people can be easily discounted. One does not enter into an MMO without being aware that people are involved, large numbers of them. And large numbers of people will mean negative interaction is basically a given.
I think you may be oversimplifying OP's assertion. My interpretation is that he feels that the low cost of wardecs may contribute to the lack of player retention. To me, that's worth discussing. While I agree that it may not be the only factor, I don't think it's ridiculous to consider if it's one of the factors. OP never suggests removing wardecs "as a concept" or otherwise, and reiterates the importance of wardecs to the game several times.
I also agree that negative interaction "happens" and I am not advocating the removal of all negative interactions nor of wardecs. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1377
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:23:00 -
[174] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Princess Bride wrote: I agree, 100%. OP also seems to agree with this.
Where he and I diverge, however, is his assertion that wardeccing as a concept is responsible for lack of player retention. Which is simply not true. The game has plenty of reasons for low player retention, the ludicrously complicated UI being among them, and the actions of other people can be easily discounted. One does not enter into an MMO without being aware that people are involved, large numbers of them. And large numbers of people will mean negative interaction is basically a given. I think you may be oversimplifying OP's assertion. My interpretation is that he feels that the low cost of wardecs may contribute to the lack of player retention. To me, that's worth discussing. While I agree that it may not be the only factor, I don't think it's ridiculous to consider if it's one of the factors. OP never suggests removing wardecs "as a concept" or otherwise, and reiterates the importance of wardecs to the game several times. I also agree that negative interaction "happens" and I am not advocating the removal of all negative interactions nor of wardecs.
I would ask you then, if you feel that wardecs do not cost enough, and they should be more expensive, whether you would be in favor of removing (or de-incetivizing) dec dodging.
Because the cost of deccing someone is commensurate to how incredibly easy they are to just brush off with no consequences. |
Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:45:00 -
[175] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I would ask you then, if you feel that wardecs do not cost enough, and they should be more expensive, whether you would be in favor of removing (or de-incetivizing) dec dodging.
Because the cost of deccing someone is commensurate to how incredibly easy they are to just brush off with no consequences.
I am not 100% sure that they should be more expensive, but I think it's a worthwhile topic of discussion. As for how incredibly easy they are to just brush off with no consequences....I'm not sure I would characterize the situation that dramatically either. The current system is better than the Decshield days. Yes, people can drop out of their corps if decced, but that can have consequences if it's a "real" corp and not just a tax shelter. If it was as easy, painless, and simple to avoid decs as you describe, then why do they cause enough grief to start threads like this one? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1377
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:50:00 -
[176] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:
I am not 100% sure that they should be more expensive, but I think it's a worthwhile topic of discussion. As for how incredibly easy they are to just brush off with no consequences....I'm not sure I would characterize the situation that dramatically either. The current system is better than the Decshield days. Yes, people can drop out of their corps if decced, but that can have consequences if it's a "real" corp and not just a tax shelter. If it was as easy, painless, and simple to avoid decs as you describe, then why do they cause enough grief to start threads like this one?
I'll tell you why. The same reason why miners spill out buckets of tears when you tell them that they could avoid ganking if they fitted a tank and orbited rocks.
"I shouldn't have to". One of the most dangerous mentalities found amongst humans.
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2254
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:52:00 -
[177] - Quote
Princess Bride wrote:Whether or not Eve is full of people who would gladly support your position is irrelevant because that is argumentum ad populum. What it actually boils down to is this: Would Eve be better or worse off if the cost of wardecs went up substantially again? Would that change help new player retention without causing the loss of too many butthurt bittervets? Although the OP does use words like "last resort", he does (multiple times) reaffirm the need for wardecs and suggests upping the price as a solution (multiple times) so that's really what we're talking about here. And sorry but no, increasing the cost of wardecs is not a core aspect of the game comparable to changing to multiple servers. That's just plain ol' exaggeration. If the cost of wars goes up, then players who declare wars will band together into bigger groups to more easily afford the fees by virtue of distribution. All this will do is push the little groups of sociopath butt-buddies out of the picture. It will do NOTHING to address the actual problem of pvp happening where it SHOULDN'T. The only way to do that is to REMOVE WARS FROM HIGH-SEC ENTIRELY, like it should have been in the first place. HIGH-sec means HIGH safety, not NO safety, like the way it is now. |
Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
588
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:55:00 -
[178] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Princess Bride wrote:Whether or not Eve is full of people who would gladly support your position is irrelevant because that is argumentum ad populum. What it actually boils down to is this: Would Eve be better or worse off if the cost of wardecs went up substantially again? Would that change help new player retention without causing the loss of too many butthurt bittervets? Although the OP does use words like "last resort", he does (multiple times) reaffirm the need for wardecs and suggests upping the price as a solution (multiple times) so that's really what we're talking about here. And sorry but no, increasing the cost of wardecs is not a core aspect of the game comparable to changing to multiple servers. That's just plain ol' exaggeration. If the cost of wars goes up, then players who declare wars will band together into bigger groups to more easily afford the fees by virtue of distribution. All this will do is push the little groups of sociopath butt-buddies out of the picture. It will do NOTHING to address the actual problem of pvp happening where it SHOULDN'T. The only way to do that is to REMOVE WARS FROM HIGH-SEC ENTIRELY, like it should have been in the first place. HIGH-sec means HIGH safety, not NO safety, like the way it is now.
2/10 |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2254
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 06:03:00 -
[179] - Quote
And yet you haven't rebutted my argument. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1377
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 06:04:00 -
[180] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:And yet you haven't rebutted my argument.
You kind of don't have to bother with a rebuttal for things that have no merit. |
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